View Full Version : tarps suck!!!!
PUNKINPUSS11
01-12-2010, 01:27
im i the only person who hates tarps???? am i the only one scuuuured of little critters climbing in,on ya. Give me an old fasioned tent anyday!!!1
PUNKINPUSS11
01-12-2010, 01:28
double wall at that!!!!!1
Jim Adams
01-12-2010, 01:30
Never had anything crawl or climb on me in my tarps however I've had plenty of mice run over me at shelters.
geek
This is why I'm getting a bug net for my bivy. Critters are going to fly if they get on my net.
Any "critter" that comes in my tarp area will be breakfast!
bigcranky
01-12-2010, 08:21
im i the only person who hates tarps???? am i the only one scuuuured of little critters climbing in,on ya. Give me an old fasioned tent anyday!!!1
Yes. You are the only one. Plenty of people love tarps.
I filrted with the idea of trying a tarp and bivy, and the idea of trying a hammock (which I still might try the hammock someday). All in all I just like the idea of my own tent over anything else.
sasquatch2014
01-12-2010, 09:01
I hammock and last year got a larger tarp and man I love it. I have plenty of room under there for gear and a place to cook and hangout. It was a real blessing given all the rain I had on my last section hike. To be able to standup/ half bent and move around and to be able to look out at the woods in the rain was great. Even had plenty of space for the dog to be in out of the rain. the one night when it was a bit more windy I pulled the one side down to the ground and had a great windbreak.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/3/7/5/0/dscf1192_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=23934&c=searchresults&searchid=29389)
stumpknocker
01-12-2010, 09:06
I love my tent and will stay with that over tarps and shelters in any weather. :)
I have two friends who are both very experienced backpackers and they both claim they picked up the deer ticks that eventually gave them both Lyme while they were tarping. Just something to think about. :-?
sasquatch2014
01-12-2010, 09:14
I love my tent and will stay with that over tarps and shelters in any weather. :)
I have two friends who are both very experienced backpackers and they both claim they picked up the deer ticks that eventually gave them both Lyme while they were tarping. Just something to think about. :-?
And there is no chance that they could have picked up the tick while hiking to where they were setting up camp. Ticks like to drop onto their host so it is more likely that the tick was already there. Most ticks have a hard time getting through the sil-nylon. Not that it couldn't happen but then again I think that there are some people who may have slept in a tent and gotten lymes as well. Has been known to happen.
jersey joe
01-12-2010, 09:19
Bugs are probably the main reason that I prefer tenting over tarping when backpacking. Especially when the mosquitos are out in full force.
Mrs Baggins
01-12-2010, 09:26
Tents tents tents. Love tents!
YoungMoose
01-12-2010, 09:33
I dont think i will ever try a hammock or even a trap. I like tents.
Doooglas
01-12-2010, 09:44
Not only do I hate tarps. I hate tents too !
Gimme a good hammock any day.
hammock during the bug season, cowboy camp the rest of the year with a small tarp for when it rains/snows.
GeneralLee10
01-12-2010, 10:04
Tarps Suck.... I can get more than one use out of it then.:D
Skunks worry me when tarping. What could be worse than having a critter nudge you, you swipe at it and then get douched by skunk spray and have to deal with that for the next 4 days in the backcountry?
Two Speed
01-12-2010, 10:29
Oh, about the same as in a tent.
Gotta admit skunks are the one animal that really worries me. Bears? Sooner be under a tarp than in a tent, so much easier to bail out. Racoon? I'll kick his butt. Skunk? Had a skunk take over my campsite once (using a tent, no less) and it became obvious to me that there wasn't much I could do about it.
ChinMusic
01-12-2010, 10:34
I like a tarp with at floor and side bug netting.
bulldog49
01-12-2010, 10:51
I like a tarp with at floor and side bug netting.
"a tarp with at floor and side bug netting" = tent. :-?
am i the only one scuuuured of little critters climbing in,on ya
It's not like the tent is a big deterrent to a mouse that wants in. At least in a tarp, they won't chew a hole in the wall to get through :-?
Cookerhiker
01-12-2010, 11:47
Tarps may be perfectly adequate for some hikers but not for me. I'm a tent guy. I don't like the idea of mosquitos or blowing rain coming in where I sleep.
Now "hate" is too strong a word.
Just a Hiker
01-12-2010, 12:10
I tried a tarp and bivy for a short while, but went back to a tent. I enjoyed the light weight aspect of a tarp, but I am just more comfortable with a tent, and I don't mind the extra weight......I carry a Big Agnes SL1, so it's not that much more weight on my back.
stumpknocker
01-12-2010, 12:35
And there is no chance that they could have picked up the tick while hiking to where they were setting up camp. Ticks like to drop onto their host so it is more likely that the tick was already there. Most ticks have a hard time getting through the sil-nylon. Not that it couldn't happen but then again I think that there are some people who may have slept in a tent and gotten lymes as well. Has been known to happen.
Duh....you can get Lyme by walking in your yard too. That's why I said it was just something to think about. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
PUNKINPUSS11
01-12-2010, 12:50
when i am in my tent i have that little feeling of being in my own place. .Maybe its a spacial thing, nah bugs...ewwww
bulldog49
01-12-2010, 12:54
It's not like the tent is a big deterrent to a mouse that wants in. At least in a tarp, they won't chew a hole in the wall to get through :-?
I have never, ever had this happen, or even know of anyone who has that happen.
sasquatch2014
01-12-2010, 13:20
Duh....you can get Lyme by walking in your yard too. That's why I said it was just something to think about. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
Actually I must not have been pointed enough. What I was attempting to point out was that what you were saying we should think about is so painfully obvious that I didn't really think that it would be something that would need to be thought about.
stumpknocker
01-12-2010, 15:08
Actually I must not have been pointed enough. What I was attempting to point out was that what you were saying we should think about is so painfully obvious that I didn't really think that it would be something that would need to be thought about.
Whoa...dude, you win. You're the smartest person I've ever run across. You know something and don't even have to think about it. I'm impressed now!! Thanks for reminding me that a person can pick up a tick in lots of places....I would have never thought about that. :rolleyes:
I will say it again as part of this thread because it IS something to think about when tarping; I know two experienced backpackers that say they caught Lyme from tarping. Now it is possible that they picked up the deer tick someplace else, but both went to tents because they both think the Lyme was due to tarping.
Lyme is the most dangerous thing I've come across on the Trail.
I prefer my tarp to a tent. Less condensation. Critters have never been a problem. I bring my net tent and pitch it under the tarp during bug season. Another aspect, and Ray Jardine points this out in his tarp book, is you can enjoy the natural setting of the woods if your not in an enclosed tent.
I don't think it has to be an either/or. In some situations I prefer a tarp, in others I prefer a tent. I'll start my AT thru-hike attempt this year with a Gatewood Cape, which is a poncho-tarp that's pretty "tentlike" but floorless, not fully enclosed. When it gets warmer and bugs are more of an issue, I'll switch to my single-wall tent.
And of course in some wonderful cases it's great to ditch any sort of shelter and cowboy camp!
i used a tent for 20 years. now i'm a tarp convert. i have both a tarp and a tarp tent - the tarp tent is truly the best of both worlds. it's a tent without the floor and it weighs nothing, packs up to the size of a fat nalgene. i use it year round, even in snow. never had a condensation problem just takes knowing how to set it up properly. never had a problem with bugs or critters. for those of you with your irish up, that means i haven't yet had a problem, not that it couldn't happen.
I went from tents to tarps to tents to tarps then back to tents and again a tarp. I think I've found a solution that may in fact help you out too, tarptents. haha. But serisouly I usually carry a tarp with me plus a DR or just a rainbow these days.
Tarps are fun when there are no mosquitoes. Tents are much better when there are mosquitoes. Rain I think is a toss-up.
I think a tarp and bug bivy type setup might be perfect for the AT. I'm not planning a thruhike (maybe next year), but I think that is what I would bring.
Having the bug netting separate makes it a very versatile setup, moreso than a tent or even a tarptent. If you chose to stay in shelters frequently, you could use the bug net alone to ward off insects. I've seen people actually set up a tent inside a shelter, but that takes up a lot more space and seems inconsiderate to me if it's busy.
The only problem would be finding privacy, I suppose you would need to stealth camp to find that.
I have never, ever had this happen, or even know of anyone who has that happen.
April 2008, Gooch Mtn Shelter. Second night on the trail, about 50 yds behind the shelter. I forgot about a bag of peanuts in my pack, and woke up in the middle of the night to a mouse sitting on my pack and feasting. Sucker chewed a hole the size of a golf ball in the side of my tent.
Lesson learned. every night there after I have checked every pocket in my pack before going to bed.
Smoky in TN
01-12-2010, 17:40
Camped at Wilson creek in Maine, near the end of my hike. I had a critter chew a hole through my tent. I was also guilty of overlooked food.
WILLIAM HAYES
01-12-2010, 17:47
had a large rattle snake slither by the front end of my tarp one time which is why I am now a hammock hanger
hillbilly
had a large rattle snake slither by the front end of my tarp one time which is why I am now a hammock hanger
hillbilly
that is smart. cause snakes can't climb trees.
bigcranky
01-12-2010, 18:34
that is smart. cause snakes can't climb trees.
Exactly.
http://www.reedysreptiles.com/fullsize/Banded%20Tree%20Snake%20004.jpg
Jester2000
01-12-2010, 18:42
I have never, ever had this happen, or even know of anyone who has that happen.
I know a number of people who have had holes chewed through their tents by mice.
I've done both, and I prefer a tent. But w/no bugs or bad weather, I prefer to cowboy.
I know a number of people who have had holes chewed through their tents by mice.
I've done both, and I prefer a tent. But w/no bugs or bad weather, I prefer to cowboy.
on first read, i thought you said you knew a number of people who have chewed holes through their tents, and i thought to myself, that is just dumb ****, that is what that is.
Jester2000
01-12-2010, 19:06
on first read, i thought you said you knew a number of people who have chewed holes through their tents, and i thought to myself, that is just dumb ****, that is what that is.
Hahaha! Well, I do know an awful lot of dumbasses. Comes from being in Billville. But if you're really hungry, I suppose there are worse things to eat . . .
You are not the only one squemish of bugs & snakes. I know of others.
Personally, I prefer tarps to reduce pack size & weight.
I "cowboy camp" making a bedroll with my OR Bug Bivy.
I love my OR Bug Bivy because it zips up and no bugs, mosquitoes, gnats, black flys or snakes are getting in there.
I also love a tarp because I can see my surroundings: I especially like the Black Diamond Beta Mid and rigging a catenary-cut tarp in the modified pyramid "pitch" set up like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gShC4t_o7PI) and I also like the MLD Monk Tarp.
If I changed anything, I might get an even more lightweight Momentum 90 DWR bivy with the sewn-in no-see-um at the face and a "diamond pitch" catenary-cut diagonal-seam spinntex or cuben tarp. But that is as far as I would go lightweight.
I enjoy a tarp over my hammock if rain looks likely. Otherwise, I enjoy watching the stars from my hammock.
superman
01-12-2010, 20:21
If god had wanted us to hammock he would have given us all two trees.:D
I once saw a skunk crawl under someone's tarp and crawl into their pack...presumably looking for food...I was glad I had a tent that night...the skunk remained in camp for a couple of hours...it seemed to know that nobody was going to mess with it and did its own thing.
I do cowboy camp sometimes if it doesn't look like its going to rain.
I enjoy a tarp over my hammock if rain looks likely. Otherwise, I enjoy watching the stars from my hammock.Ditto, agreed, etc.
I like my tarp with a hammock. Never worry about how wet the floor gets.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38474&catid=member&imageuser=2502
Whoa...dude, you win. You're the smartest person I've ever run across. You know something and don't even have to think about it. I'm impressed now!! Thanks for reminding me that a person can pick up a tick in lots of places....I would have never thought about that. :rolleyes:
I will say it again as part of this thread because it IS something to think about when tarping; I know two experienced backpackers that say they caught Lyme from tarping. Now it is possible that they picked up the deer tick someplace else, but both went to tents because they both think the Lyme was due to tarping.
Lyme is the most dangerous thing I've come across on the Trail.
Not to get in the middle here, but I think a person is just as likely to pick up a deer tick (ixodes scapularis) off of a shelter floor/bunk than in his/her own personal shelter. White-footed mice are carriers, and those are the critters you find in all the AT shelters.
Be careful. Use permethrin on clothing and maybe the outside of a sleeping bag, your hat, etc. Still isn't guaranteed to stop them, but it helps.
300winmag
01-13-2010, 01:01
My "tarping" days are long past. Used 'em summer and winter for several yearsand didn't really like them all that much.
I agree, give me my TarpTent Moment at 28 oz. W/ 2 stakes & stuff bag over a tarp, groundcloth, mosquito bar and several stakes and miles of guy lines.
I'll have my TarpTent Moment set up, mattress inflated and sleeping bag fluffed up while others still trying to figure out where to rig their tarp.
300winmag
01-13-2010, 01:13
I'd be willing to bet that far more "tarpers" are also alky stove users that we tenters are.
What's the connection? Well tarps and alky stoves are, to me, more cult items for ULers than truly practical items.
Yeah, both are a bit cheaper than the mainstream lightweight alternatives of singlewall tents and light canister stoves or even ESBIT stoves.
But the "fiddle factor with tarps and alky stoves is too high and the performance factor too low.
Tarps, as I mentioned in the above post, require ground cloths and mosquito bars so weight/bulk savings over UL single wall tents is lost. And it is well known that alky stoves aren't truly weight saving over a canister stove if cooking 2 meals a day on trips over 3 days long. The fuel is just too heavy.
OK ULer tarpers & alky stovers, have at me. :welcome
Eric
stumpknocker
01-13-2010, 07:25
Be careful. Use permethrin on clothing and maybe the outside of a sleeping bag, your hat, etc. Still isn't guaranteed to stop them, but it helps.
Very wise words...thanks!!
One of those friends I was talking about was a very strong hiker just a few years ago, but can't even make it to a store now because of how bad the Lyme infected him...and he's been battling it well over two years now. Very sad to see what happened to him.
I have never, ever had this happen, or even know of anyone who has that happen.
It happened at Carter Gap Shelter a couple of months ago to a girl I was hiking with. We weren't all that close to the shelter, either. Danged mouse chewed right into her tent.
Tarps are not for me, not in the east, anyway. For one thing, a single-wall tent with silnylon floor is as light or lighter than a tarp and groundcloth, so the weight savings isn't a reason to tarp it. Bugs can be a problem. I like the way a Tarptent keeps my stuff contained--in the morning my headlamp, for example, is not going to get left behind, unnoticed in a pile of leaves.
During my brief bit of hiking in California, though, I did occasionally wish for a tarp setup, which would have made it much easier to cowboy camp.
RollingStone
01-13-2010, 08:56
Being from New Hampshire, we tried several combinations of tarps that for us just didn't work out due to the bug factors. However, now that we're in Montana, tarps are much more enjoyable with the low humidity, few bugs. We don't like bivies so we pitch a pyramid and admittedly its nice to stare out at the Big Sky when all the stars are out.
However, we can also do that in a tarptent just the same. So fur us, tarptents have the best of both worlds.
I'd be willing to bet that far more "tarpers" are also alky stove users that we tenters are.
What's the connection? Well tarps and alky stoves are, to me, more cult items for ULers than truly practical items.
Yeah, both are a bit cheaper than the mainstream lightweight alternatives of singlewall tents and light canister stoves or even ESBIT stoves.
But the "fiddle factor with tarps and alky stoves is too high and the performance factor too low.
Tarps, as I mentioned in the above post, require ground cloths and mosquito bars so weight/bulk savings over UL single wall tents is lost. And it is well known that alky stoves aren't truly weight saving over a canister stove if cooking 2 meals a day on trips over 3 days long. The fuel is just too heavy.
I use a tarp and alcohol stove because to me they are both more functional.
The weight savings of tarp, bug net, guylines and stakes over a tarptent is negligible unless you are using a poncho-tarp as your rain gear and shelter (not something that really appeals to me). But both the tarp and bug bivy can be used for multiple purposes. You can set up your tarp for a bit of shade or a dry place to eat lunch on a rainy day (or on the AT I guess people just stop at shelters which negates this advantage), or you can use your bug bivy in a shelter or to cowboy camp even if the bugs are bad but the weather is good.
I do prefer a fully enclosed tent if the bugs are really bad, it's just nice to have a refuge from them.
And as for alcohol stoves... It's obviously a personal thing, but I find them to be more functional than canister stoves, too. I find canisters to be a huge pain. I hate lugging those heavy things around, and I hate not knowing how much fuel I'm using or have left. The fuel for an alcohol stove is heavier, but at least you know how much you have left and can carry only what you need. When a canister starts getting low, you've gotta carry 2 of them which pretty much negates their advantage (or you just ditch the one that's running out and waste fuel). I have 5 canisters sitting on my shelf that have some unknown amount of fuel left, that I never bring on trips because I always want to start with a full one. I guess they are cheap enough that you could just toss them and not worry about it so much, though. Ease of finding fuel for an alcohol stove is a big plus, too. Since all I do is boil water, they work better for me.
I use a tarp and alky stove because I just like them better, not because they save weight. And I don't mind fiddling :p
I'd be willing to bet that far more "tarpers" are also alky stove users that we tenters are.
What's the connection? Well tarps and alky stoves are, to me, more cult items for ULers than truly practical items.
Yeah, both are a bit cheaper than the mainstream lightweight alternatives of singlewall tents and light canister stoves or even ESBIT stoves.
But the "fiddle factor with tarps and alky stoves is too high and the performance factor too low.
Tarps, as I mentioned in the above post, require ground cloths and mosquito bars so weight/bulk savings over UL single wall tents is lost. And it is well known that alky stoves aren't truly weight saving over a canister stove if cooking 2 meals a day on trips over 3 days long. The fuel is just too heavy.
OK ULer tarpers & alky stovers, have at me. :welcome
Eric
oh, eric, if you could only see the truth. i cook two meals a day but they're homecooked and dehydrated. my camp can be set up and me heating water in 5 minutes from stopping. then, after the notime it takes for my water to boil on my alky stove, i've prepped my fixings for my meal. then the meal sits in a coozie for 10 minutes while i've fed the dogs and changed my clothes. there's nothing left for me to do but sit back and watch everybody else still setting up there stuff, let alone getting out their food bags. and i'm eating squash casserole or lasagna or cajun crab cakes or some other good home eatin'. i use about 4 oz of alcohol a day and that includes brewing coffee too.
The weight savings of tarp, bug net, guylines and stakes over a tarptent is negligible unless you are using a poncho-tarp as your rain gear and shelter (not something that really appeals to me).
:confused: my tarp tent with stakes, weighs a pound less than if i took my tarp, stakes, bug net, etc. i would not say a pound is negligible weight.
"And I don't mind fiddling "
I don't see that much fiddling with either tarps or alcohol stoves, though this depends on experience level, specific conditions, and specific equipment. A person who has little experience with either of these things is going to fiddle, but they might also have trouble putting up their tent ...
There's quite a range in what can fall into the category of "tarp" or "alcohol stove". Is my Gatewood Cape a "tarp" ? It's a sort of poncho that pitches like a tent; apart from siting it well and orienting it w.r.t. wind/weather, it goes up (easily, quickly) pretty much the same way all the time --- like a tent. There are also other sorts of shaped tarps.
My Caldera Cone alcohol stove assembles quickly, starts reliably --- fiddle factor is low. And (for an alcohol stove) it's quite efficient. On a weight-adjusted basis, it seems to me that the performance is quite high. And of course, it avoids the downsides of other types of stoves: the "do I bring one cannister or two" granularity issue. The "is a wood burning stove legal in this forest" issue plus the "can I find sufficiently dry wood scraps" issue. And it does better than all but the wood burning stoves with the "how can I get resupplied with fuel" issue.
To be clear, I certainly don't think that tarps or alcohol stoves are the right approach for every person in every situation, but the "cult items, not practical" comment is at odds with the large number of people that find both tarps and alcohol stoves to be the right choice for them.
Two Speed
01-13-2010, 11:47
. . . but the "cult items, not practical" comment is at odds with the large number of people that find both tarps and alcohol stoves to be the right choice for them.Unless we're all cultists of one kind or another.
Personally I'm a member of the shorts wearing Walking Stick tribe, more specifically a Trangia clansman. Recently been eyeballing a really cute 8' x 10' so I may divorce my SMD Lunar and join the Tarp family. You know, silnylon Tarp's.
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 12:44
On my PCT hike I used a tent sometimes, and a tarp others, and cowboy camped as much as I could.
I used an Etowah II alchohol stove for some of the trip, and also used an MSR Pocket Rocket.
I liked all of my gear, and used different gear in different circumstances. I'm either switching back and forth between cults, or I'm in a third cult that believes that the "right" gear depends on where you are, what you're doing, the weather, the altitude, what other weight you're carrying, how many people you're traveling with, and other factors.
Two Speed
01-13-2010, 12:52
Do you honestly expect anyone to choose their gear based on where they're hiking, their abilities and expected weather, and not some cast-in-concrete notion of what's "right" and what's "wrong?"
Get thee behind me, Satan!
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 13:02
Do you honestly expect anyone to choose their gear based on where they're hiking, their abilities and expected weather, and not some cast-in-concrete notion of what's "right" and what's "wrong?"
Get thee behind me, Satan!
Hahahahahaha! Reason runs counter to belief, which makes my cult evil.
Two Speed
01-13-2010, 13:10
Hahahahahaha! Reason runs counter to beliefAs well it should.
which makes my cult evil.Was there any doubt? Now be gone!
300winmag
01-13-2010, 13:41
OK, maybe you tarpers (and hammockers) are not in cults, just "shelter tribes".
But alky stove users ARE in a cult. Thsy love playing with them and building "better" ones and endlessly discussing the merits and demerits of different models. Having used them frequently in my checkered past I'll say the ONLY efficient alky stove I've seen is the Caldera cone, IMHO. And still, the fuel weight is not efficient after 3-4 days.
Eric
Two Speed
01-13-2010, 13:47
Ah jeez, someone got a link to Rock's article on that subject?
Found it. (http://hikinghq.net/stoves/stove_compare.html) Short version is for most hikers on hikes less than 7 days* duration an alcohol stove was the lightest, the Cat Stove IIRC. Yeah, alky stoves burn more fuel per day, but the higher fixed weight of the canister and gasoline stoves screws you until the higher heat value of the fuel starts to kick in on longer duration hikes.
* 10 days? Gonna have to re-read the article for understanding.
sasquatch2014
01-13-2010, 15:40
When I think soda can stoves and the like I always think of it as UL stuff and I was once told that one of the principles of this is that you should try to have items serve dual purposes, therefor if you use and Alcohol stove you should use fuel that you can also drink. Moonshine works fine for this then you can spend your time tinkering with your still instead.:D
O
But alky stove users ARE in a cult. Thsy love playing with them and building "better" ones and endlessly discussing the merits and demerits of different models. Having used them frequently in my checkered past I'll say the ONLY efficient alky stove I've seen is the Caldera cone, IMHO. And still, the fuel weight is not efficient after 3-4 days.
I used a cut-off soda can bottom for the majority of the CDT. Really haven't improved it much since (unless you count new foil for my windscreen. ;) ) It boiled water in ~5 minutes.
As an aside, an alchy stove loses efficiency after about 10 boils for the general standard ~2 cups for ea. meal. (I don't like thinking in terms of days as everyone is different in the amount of meals they do).
For longer hikes, I now go stoveless.
The only cult-like gear users are those who collect gear and hike less. As a person hikes more (generally speaking) gear is talked about less.
Grandma Mags was an awesome cook. What she could whip on a Sunday was simply amazing. Christmas? Those Italian cookies people pay $$$ in the chi-chi bakeries? Out of her memory she could make a tray that would make any so-called foodie salivate. I never heard her discuss the knife to use, or what brand of pot or the merits of this type of cutting board vs. another one.
She simply cooked. She simply baked. And it was awesome.
The "foodies" who go to Peppercorn and spend $50 for a garlic press will never, ever cook as well as my grandmother with a simple knife, some heat, a trusty pot and a spoon.
In the same way, those who drone on endlessly on why their choice is great and others suck (as opposed to saying why it works for THEIR way of backpacking. Subtle, but important difference), spend more time collecting gear and less time outdoors.
On trips with friends, we don't compare stoves...we hike and enjoy the gorgeous Colorado night ski.
On the thru-hikes, people who are gear centric are mostly ignored.
It is just gear. The least important part of backpacking. Tell us why you use a piece of gear. Why it works for you. But to somehow think a piece of gear is "best" or "better" than another person's choice? Pure gear wankery for gear hobbyists who are online.
Tarps are great until you get to bug season. Then they are horrible.
Solution: a tarp tent from henry Shire. loads of ventilation yet netting keeps out the bugs!
I know this sounds like an ad but its the truth!
DavidNH
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 15:52
For longer hikes, I now go stoveless.
I carry a stove on longer hikes, but I make up for the weight penalty by going pantsless.
I carry a stove on longer hikes, but I make up for the weight penalty by going pantsless.
Brings the concept of full moon hiking to another whole level....
http://www.how-to-draw-cartoons-online.com/image-files/lunar_new_year_final.gif
I have a Zoid, a Tarptent Rainbow, and a Warbonnet Blackbird hammock. Loved my Zoid, till I got the Tarptent (1 lb lighter)... Loved my Tarptent, till the rain in Maine fell mainly on me and the slant I had to sleep on cause I was too slow to get a real tentsite... Thus the hammock... No more worries! Dry and comfortable! So my MacCat tarp goes with me and my hammock. I don't think I'd use it alone, though.. So I love my hammock and my tarp!
300winmag said:
"But alky stove users ARE in a cult. Thsy love playing with them and building "better" ones and endlessly discussing the merits and demerits of different models."
I know some car enthusiasts who are always talking about tweaking their cars, modifying them in some way, racing them, etc. In fact, however, a person can own and use a car without doing any of that. Ditto an alcohol stove.
"Having used them frequently in my checkered past I'll say the ONLY efficient alky stove I've seen is the Caldera cone, IMHO. And still, the fuel weight is not efficient after 3-4 days."
As a recent convert to a Caldera cone, I have no issues with the first sentence above. :-)
But fuel weight efficiency --- it depends on different factors, IMO it shouldn't be considered so open-and-shut. For example, on a solo trip I heat 1.5 to 2 cups of water a day on a one time basis (dinner only). This requires less than a fluid oz of fuel, somewhere in the 1/2 to 2/3 fluid oz range. So 8 fluid ounces of fuel lasts me at least 12 days. A fluid ounce of alcohol fuel weighs less than an oz, about 0.82 oz.
Even a small fuel cannister is a fairly heavy chunk of metal; an empty smaller size Snow Peak cannister weighs 2.6 oz, whereas an alcohol fuel bottle might weigh half that at most. At least my first two to three days of fuel are "free" just by dint of not carrying a heavy metal cannister (not factoring in here that the stove plus windscreen is likely lighter as well).
So for myself, at least, I don't buy the "not efficient after 3-4 days" claim. Certainly if you're cooking multiple times a day or for multiple people the dynamics are different. Even so, another way to look at it is that if fuel weight makes the alcohol stove user start the trip with a heavier stove+fuel setup, at some point s/he hits a break even point and for the remaining trip days the alcohol setup is lighter. For this reason I still bring the alcohol stove when I'm hiking with my wife.
gunner76
01-13-2010, 18:01
I take a tent but might not set it up depending on the weather but a few times the skeeters have forced me to use my tent when I had not planned on it. I did use a tarp one time when a friend and I were caught in a heavy rain and we could not find a level enough place for the tent but did find a spot just small enough for the tarp. Did not stay completly dry but we did survive the night.
Its all a personal choice of what you like and conditions.
I used a cut-off soda can bottom for the majority of the CDT. Really haven't improved it much since (unless you count new foil for my windscreen. ;) ) It boiled water in ~5 minutes.
As an aside, an alchy stove loses efficiency after about 10 boils for the general standard ~2 cups for ea. meal. (I don't like thinking in terms of days as everyone is different in the amount of meals they do).
For longer hikes, I now go stoveless.
The only cult-like gear users are those who collect gear and hike less. As a person hikes more (generally speaking) gear is talked about less.
Grandma Mags was an awesome cook. What she could whip on a Sunday was simply amazing. Christmas? Those Italian cookies people pay $$$ in the chi-chi bakeries? Out of her memory she could make a tray that would make any so-called foodie salivate. I never heard her discuss the knife to use, or what brand of pot or the merits of this type of cutting board vs. another one.
She simply cooked. She simply baked. And it was awesome.
The "foodies" who go to Peppercorn and spend $50 for a garlic press will never, ever cook as well as my grandmother with a simple knife, some heat, a trusty pot and a spoon.
In the same way, those who drone on endlessly on why their choice is great and others suck (as opposed to saying why it works for THEIR way of backpacking. Subtle, but important difference), spend more time collecting gear and less time outdoors.
On trips with friends, we don't compare stoves...we hike and enjoy the gorgeous Colorado night ski.
On the thru-hikes, people who are gear centric are mostly ignored.
It is just gear. The least important part of backpacking. Tell us why you use a piece of gear. Why it works for you. But to somehow think a piece of gear is "best" or "better" than another person's choice? Pure gear wankery for gear hobbyists who are online.
shazzam!!:eek:
LIhikers
01-13-2010, 23:06
Bugs are probably the main reason that I prefer tenting over tarping when backpacking. Especially when the mosquitos are out in full force.
I'll second that!
I can remember this one night in Massachusetts where the skeeters drove about 8 people out of a shelter, one by one.
Jim Adams
01-14-2010, 00:44
Hahaha! Well, I do know an awful lot of dumbasses. Comes from being in Billville. But if you're really hungry, I suppose there are worse things to eat . . .
Well said!....my socks taste far worse than my tent does!....just my opinion.:D
geek
Jim Adams
01-14-2010, 01:08
Too many choices to call any single thing correct.
I love tarping...should never get wet if you know what you are doing, have lots of space, can stand up for dressing, having visitors or just to wait out bad weather more comforably, can cook inside, can use DEET the few times that it is needed.
Your HS tarptent will keep you from the bugs until you have to go outside every few hours to adjust it.
Will never stop using my cannister stove because everything else that I've used is a hassle compared to it...light and cook...poof! Simmers, boils, always lighter than any alky stove that I have and no problem finding cannisters. If you use it alot, you know when you will run out of fuel...no need for a second cannister.
Skunks will not spray or bother you if you just let them go their way...they are just nosey and curious.
Careful that you don't step out of your hammock onto that rattle snake passing under you!
Waaayyy too many scenarios!...Use what works for you because you will never change me.
geek
mkmangold
01-14-2010, 02:16
And there is no chance that they could have picked up the tick while hiking to where they were setting up camp. Ticks like to drop onto their host so it is more likely that the tick was already there. Most ticks have a hard time getting through the sil-nylon. Not that it couldn't happen but then again I think that there are some people who may have slept in a tent and gotten lymes as well. Has been known to happen.
Naw: it's just that ticks prefer tarps themselves.
harryfred
01-14-2010, 02:19
Well said!....my socks taste far worse than my tent does!....just my opinion.:D
geek
And you know this HOW?:-? Wow talk about hiker hunger!:eek:
...Your HS tarptent will keep you from the bugs until you have to go outside every few hours to adjust it...
geek
And you won't have to do this if you know what you're doing...:D
It's a weird spelling, but nonetheless, it's "chequered" when referring to the checkerboard pattern of good/bad in one's life....
Jonathan, St. Paul
OK, maybe you tarpers (and hammockers) are not in cults, just "shelter tribes".
But alky stove users ARE in a cult. Thsy love playing with them and building "better" ones and endlessly discussing the merits and demerits of different models. Having used them frequently in my checkered past I'll say the ONLY efficient alky stove I've seen is the Caldera cone, IMHO. And still, the fuel weight is not efficient after 3-4 days.
Eric
Sassafras Lass
02-17-2010, 17:20
People who feel they need constant attention and praise will seek it, no matter the avenue. Being out in God's creation does not shield us from those people; after all, there are things to be bought to go out into the wilderness in the first place, and of course exclamations and arguments must be had over said items! :p
mister krabs
02-17-2010, 17:24
It's a weird spelling, but nonetheless, it's "chequered" when referring to the checkerboard pattern of good/bad in one's life....
Jonathan, St. Paul
Too funny, your first post on the board is a somewhat incorrect correction (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/checkered)of someone's spelling. :D
It's a weird spelling, but nonetheless, it's "chequered" when referring to the checkerboard pattern of good/bad in one's life....
Jonathan, St. Paul
Good catch, fellow "word nerd". I would've missed that one.
boarstone
02-17-2010, 17:49
Well...I hammock mostly, had to break down and get a solo tent for an upcoming hike in the Cave Creek/Skull Mesa area north of Phoenix in April in the desert. I'll not have anything to hang from to start with and I don't want "creepy crawlies" on me...snakes, scorpians, spiders etc. So it's back to a tent for me-- for this hike anyway. They have their place and time like anything else I guess....
Too funny, your first post on the board is a somewhat incorrect correction (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/checkered)of someone's spelling. :D
I've run into that a number of times recently: Grammar and spelling which used to be incorrect is not accepted as being correct because of the proliferation of its misuse by the general public.
Call it the "Evolution of English" (at least in the USA) if you will.
I'm sure that the English (you know, the folks who invented the language) retch at our version :D (yes, mine too).
Oh, great. A typo in my above post. "Not" should be "now". Purely a mis-key.
Btw: I love tarps (just trying to stay on topic :D).
Jester2000
02-17-2010, 18:05
I've run into that a number of times recently: Grammar and spelling which used to be incorrect is not accepted as being correct because of the proliferation of its misuse by the general public.
Call it the "Evolution of English" (at least in the USA) if you will.
I'm sure that the English (you know, the folks who invented the language) retch at our version :D (yes, mine too).
Well, all languages evolve over time, even French (though they hate it when it does). To think that language evolution is new or particularly bad is probably what every generation of speakers/writers think. Plus, the music I listened to as a kid was amazing, and yours is just noise.
On the other hand, sometimes things get more formalized over time -- "Pensylvania" on the Liberty Bell is misspelled by today's standards, but was perfectly acceptable at the time the bell was cast.
Well, all languages evolve over time, even French (though they hate it when it does). To think that language evolution is new or particularly bad is probably what every generation of speakers/writers think. Plus, the music I listened to as a kid was amazing, and yours is just noise.
On the other hand, sometimes things get more formalized over time -- "Pensylvania" on the Liberty Bell is misspelled by today's standards, but was perfectly acceptable at the time the bell was cast.
Wasn't William Penn the founder of Pennsylvania? Is it possible that the casting (or design) of the original bell was done by someone with less than stellar English? Curious! (Weird in today's vernacular).
There's another word:
Weird (remember "I before e except after c and when followed by "eigh" as in neighbor and weigh?).
AND........ if a vehicle crashes, resulting in a fire:
WHY is it then a fiery crash and not a firey crash.
I can't blame folks for not keeping up with this insane language of ours. :)
Jester2000
02-17-2010, 18:28
Wasn't William Penn the founder of Pennsylvania? Is it possible that the casting (or design) of the original bell was done by someone with less than stellar English? Curious! (Weird in today's vernacular). . .
It's also spelled that way on the maps in Independence Hall. In the US Constitution, it's spelled both ways. And "choose" is spelled "chuse." There have always been alternate spellings in English, which, as you say, makes for an insane language.
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of tarps . . .
It's also spelled that way on the maps in Independence Hall. In the US Constitution, it's spelled both ways. And "choose" is spelled "chuse." There have always been alternate spellings in English, which, as you say, makes for an insane language.
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of tarps . . .
I praise your knowledge. I figure the different spellings were just to yank someone's chain, across the pond.
I always have and prob always will use a tent, either single or double wall (have both). Used a tarp with a friend who had one once, and it rained, I wasn't impressed, accept for the fact that I didn't have to carry a tent and he carried the very light tarp (don't remember which tarp it was).
I was looking at the new MSR E-House, it looks interesting and would maybe try it, but don't think I'll invest the money into it (about $150-). Also, I don't hike with poles, looks like you need them for the E-House.
HRTT, but
Tent/Tarps -> semantics
and marketing.
The Old Fhart
02-18-2010, 08:08
BrianLe
"But alky stove users ARE in a cult. Thsy love playing with them and building "better" ones and endlessly discussing the merits and demerits of different models."
I know some car enthusiasts who are always talking about tweaking their cars, modifying them in some way, racing them, etc. In fact, however, a person can own and use a car without doing any of that. Ditto an alcohol stove.If you apply the car analogy to tarps vs tents, you don't see many people who drive without a windshield or doors. ;)
Tarps suck for camping but they are great for hiking.
Two Speed
02-18-2010, 10:30
If you apply the car analogy to tarps vs tents, you don't see many people who drive without a windshield or doors. ;)Sooo, been driving your tarp around much lately?
If you apply the car analogy to tarps vs tents, you don't see many people who drive without a windshield or doors. ;)
They are called motorcycles.
Two Speed
02-18-2010, 11:00
If you apply the car analogy to tarps vs tents, you don't see many people who drive without a windshield or doors. ;)
Sooo, been driving your tarp around much lately?
They are called motorcycles.So all of those mean, nasty tarp types have been secretly riding their motorcycles down the trails, all the while cleverly disguising them as tarps?
Well, that certainly explains all the erosion, doesn't it?
So all of those mean, nasty tarp types have been secretly riding their motorcycles down the trails, all the while cleverly disguising them as tarps?
Well, that certainly explains all the erosion, doesn't it?
Don't forget they are also cutting trees to distill their own alcohol to use as both a fuel for the bike and stove. You ever see how much a biker likes to tinker with their ride? Sheesh. Just get a car already.
Two Speed
02-18-2010, 11:16
Does a pick up count, and can you give me any tips on how to disguise my Honda as a tarp? I want go to cause some trail erosion.
The Old Fhart
02-18-2010, 15:13
TOF -"If you apply the car analogy to tarps vs tents...."russb-"They are called motorcycles."Please try to read the post more carefully. ;)
Anyone who has camped in the area around Bland and woken up in the morning to see their tent completely covered with those pencil-sized centipedes and slugs knows the advantages of a tent (or an enclosed hammock).
Tarps suck big time!:welcome
Please try to read the post more carefully. ;)
Anyone who has camped in the area around Bland and woken up in the morning to see their tent completely covered with those pencil-sized centipedes and slugs knows the advantages of a tent (or an enclosed hammock).
Tarps suck big time!:welcome
I read very carefully, the operative word was analogy. ;)
A tarp is not a tent just like a motorcycle is not a car.
Tarps don't suck, but my vacuum cleaner does. :banana
The Old Fhart
02-18-2010, 15:43
russb-"I read very carefully, the operative word was analogy. "The analogy was to a car, not a motorcycle.:-?
russb-"A tarp is not a tent just like a motorcycle is not a car."
Very true. why anyone would use a tarp (which is not a tent) in a situation calling for a tent defies logic.:D
pyroman53
02-18-2010, 23:29
I'm sure there are situations where a tarp would suck, like mosquito season, but Ive been a tarper for 40 years and I love em, except when the skeeters are active. Or in the desert!! Too many creepy crawlers. There I use a Contrail Tarptent. Haven't run into the centipedes. Now that might suck...but I'm sure we'd figure something out. I like the room under a tarp...and the view. I'm not a fan of being enclosed/isolated by tent walls. YMMV.
trailangelbronco
02-18-2010, 23:50
I tried a tarp 4different trips, multiple nights per trip. 1st trip, the mosquitoes ate me up. 2nd trip, the tarp was great for the first few hot nights, I enjoyed the breeze coming in.
Last two nights, I got absolutely soaked. The wind was blowing the rain up under the tarp and into me, all freaking day and night. It was the most miserable sleeping experience EVER.
Last trip, I shared a DoubleRainbow with a friend, they brought it. again, fine until a storm hit, and then we got soaked. Got soaked with the wind blowing rain up under and on us, and also got more drenched by constantly running out to try to adjust the damn tarp, with no possible way to correct the problem.
I will never tarp tent or tarp again. Screw the weight, I'll carry 4lbsuntilmy Lightheart dou arrives in May.
brooklynkayak
02-19-2010, 09:26
These tent vs. tarp vs hammock get some pretty one sided arguments.
Tarps can have bug nets, so the fear of the outdoors shouldn't be an issue.
Hammocks use tarps.
A tarp with a bug net IS a double walled tent.
A tarp with a bug net perimeter IS a single wall tent.
If you choose to sleep under the tent fly without the bug net, you are just as exposed as if you were under a tarp, only you don't have all of the benefits.
Most people with the tarp phobia, don't take the time to understand what a tarp is or understand the how-to's and advantages.
The Old Fhart
02-19-2010, 10:50
brooklynkayak-"These tent vs. tarp vs hammock get some pretty one sided arguments.That's because the features of a tarp vs. a tent are so one sided.
brooklynkayak-"Most people with the tarp phobia, don't take the time to understand what a tarp is or understand the how-to's and advantages."Most people who choose tents (or hammocks) over tarps don't have phobias but have made a logical decision based on the well understood limitations of a tarp.
Anyone who chooses a tarp solely because of the weight is a UL cultist.:p
GeneralLee10
02-19-2010, 11:18
Most people who choose tents (or hammocks) over tarps don't have phobias but have made a logical decision based on the well understood limitations of a tarp.
That's your opinion, and YOU can not speak for others only yourself. And speaking of limitations, your tent and hammocks have their limitations too.
mtnkngxt
02-19-2010, 11:43
MLD Monk Spinntex 7oz with guide line
Head Net .5oz
I also have a Tarptent Moment fund, for those sketchy weather trips. I'm an equal oppurtunity camper.
The Old Fhart
02-19-2010, 11:49
Indwlkr-"That's your opinion, and YOU can not speak for others only yourself. And speaking of limitations, your tent and hammocks have their limitations too."That's your opinion, and YOU can not speak for others, only yourself.:p
And it isn't just my opinion, here are the opinions of tarp owners:
I'm sure there are situations where a tarp would suck, like mosquito season, .....Or in the desert!! Too many creepy crawlers.
"The wind was blowing the rain up under the tarp and into me, all freaking day and night. It was the most miserable sleeping experience EVER."
P.S. FYI, I have never owned a hammock.
Tarps and tents are just like anything else.
Get a good one, set it up right and understand the limitations and you will be fine.
Get a bad one or dont understand how to set one up for the conditions, either tent or tarp and you will have problems.
Bugs are a non issue with tarps.
Plenty of SUL bug tents are available.
Now if you have a tarp as big as a postage stamp without a waterproof bivy, I could see some big problems ahead.
An A-Frame tent rainfly is basically just a tarp over an inner tent.
Some old crap.
The pioneeers and mountain men used tarps and wool blankets but understood how to use them.
No one disagrees that using a tarp takes more skill then a tent in dealing with adverse conditions. But if you know what you are doing, there is no reason you can't use it in any condition that you can use a tent for. Most peoples issues with tarps are due to being uncomfortable outside their comfort zone or not doing something right. However, a tarp doesn't fit everyone's camping style so not everyone is going to be happy with one. But it can be made to work for any situation.
But tarps aren't for everyone. Some people will always need the security of a nylon wall since if you can't see it (whatever it is), it can't see you. And for those that like to hang out inside their shelter for long periods of time, a tent is definitely more suited for that style of camping. But for those that get up early and hike late and only set up camp to sleep, for those that take their scenic breaks during the day, a tarp can work very well.
If you pick your campsite properly and pitch your tarp for the conditions, weather is a non-issue. If you are having problems getting wet, you are doing something wrong. Take the time to figure out what it was so you can do it differently next time.
Bugs don't have to be an issue either. As someone who normally hikes from dawn to dusk, most bugs are usuall gone when you go to sleep. A head net is often all that you need though a mesh bivy can help. If you want a more tent like experience, there are net tents that go under tarps that have alot of room.
I don't get the comment about deserts and creepy-crawlies. I camp in the desserts all the time and I usually sleep out in the open and creepy crawlies are a non-issue. Just don't camp next to an ant hill and away from holes in the ground. In fact, on the PCT, its the desert sections that get the most tarp users.
I've been using a tarp for 4 years and I used on on my thru-hike on the PCT. I've had wind, rain, snow and really bad mosquitos. And yet I not only survived using my tarp, I stayed comfortable, dry and not-bitten. So it can be done, but I understand that not everyone wants to.
Jester2000
02-19-2010, 15:41
I cowboy camped most of the time in the desert on the PCT, and when I wasn't doing that I was using a tarp. Never had a problem with bugs or snakes.
Most of the time, though, I prefer using a tent.
Tarps aren't outside my comfort range, I'm not particularly insecure, and I know what I'm doing. But at the end of a long day, I'm not really that interested in getting involved in a structural engineering problem. Which, I suppose, is one of the reasons I cowboy camped most of the time in the desert on the PCT.
But that's just me.
I cowboy camp all the time.
Only time I had a problem in the desert was when I found a scorpion in my boot.
pyroman53
02-19-2010, 22:58
I don't know, since the desert is not an ecosystem I'm all that familiar with. Nothing in the woods causes me concern while sleeping under a tarp, but I don't know enough about the desert to feel comfortable. You folks who have the experience know better. Seems like everything in the desert wants to poke me, sting me, or scratch me.
I still generally prefer a night out under a tarp, and weather has never gotten me yet. No matter how hard the rain fell. Nothing like seeing the moon move across the sky during the night, or seeing the deer feeding near my campsite at dawn. Or the sunrise in the morning. Or the rain splashing all night long. Its all right there to enjoy. Tent walls block most of that.
Dang, I need to get off this computer and get out!!
as a hiker from the jungle to high mountains and everything in between I'm in total agreement...TARPS as a only shelter "SUCK" .. great even required in some forms of camping but as a way to do AT ...ha ha ha
LIVEtough
03-15-2013, 19:14
I thru hiked the PCT with a tiny tarp i need twice. I slept under the stars..
broken arrow
03-15-2013, 19:30
i only use tarps that are made out of smartwool. they go great with my mountain house hammock with horse-hair whoopie slings. only the best for me.
Mountain Mike
03-15-2013, 21:59
I own a 10' X 10" Tent tarp with numerous tie outs. I also own several different tents. The tarp has seen the most miles. It gives me flexibility in ways to set it up depending if I want ventilation or hunker down in a storm. When on my AT thru it was spacious enough that my friends that were tenting would often stop by to visit me while cooking their supper. On cold windy night in a shelter I could use it to block the wind, sometime set it up to cover the picnic table.
For PCT I decided to take a tent & was happy for it in buggy sections. When in the high Sierra in Aug I went with a bivy sack with the little chance of rain & few bugs. There is no perfect shelter for all conditions. Just what works for you. Tarping takes some knowledge of how to set it up & knowing the proper knots.
If you actually take the time to learn how to set it up properly and select good campsites, tarps are a great way to cut pack weight and gain a great deal of flexibility in fitting into small campsites and being able to pitch it in a variety of ways. If you don't like bugs, get a bug bivy. It's okay to not like things but I don't get why "hate" has to come into the equation.
christoba123
03-24-2013, 15:23
I hate when I have a use for one and forgot to bring it..... Thats when I hate them
I love them when it is clear - hate them when it pours because I wish I had my tent!
T.S.Kobzol
03-26-2013, 08:32
It happened to me. Speck Pond Shelter tent area. Brand spanking new Warmlite 2RD. Mouse creeped up all the way where the mesh vent holes are, chewed a hole through and made a mess inside.
that was at least 15 years ago.
I have never, ever had this happen, or even know of anyone who has that happen.
Tipi Walter
03-26-2013, 09:29
Any "critter" that comes in my tarp area will be breakfast!
I hope you enjoy grilled ants and a small stew of midges.
It's not like the tent is a big deterrent to a mouse that wants in. At least in a tarp, they won't chew a hole in the wall to get through :-?
If you leave the food outside the tent you won't get mice. Ergo no chew holes.
I prefer my tarp to a tent. Less condensation. Critters have never been a problem. I bring my net tent and pitch it under the tarp during bug season. Another aspect, and Ray Jardine points this out in his tarp book, is you can enjoy the natural setting of the woods if your not in an enclosed tent.
This is the usual mantra spewed by tarpists---a better connection to the outdoors when not confined to a tent. I welcome you to join me in a 7 day blizzard and you can have a fuller connection to nature as I sit in my 4 season tent.
April 2008, Gooch Mtn Shelter. Second night on the trail, about 50 yds behind the shelter. I forgot about a bag of peanuts in my pack, and woke up in the middle of the night to a mouse sitting on my pack and feasting. Sucker chewed a hole the size of a golf ball in the side of my tent.
Lesson learned. every night there after I have checked every pocket in my pack before going to bed.
Just don't be a motard and leave food in your tent.
Camped at Wilson creek in Maine, near the end of my hike. I had a critter chew a hole through my tent. I was also guilty of overlooked food.
See above.
Tarps suck for camping but they are great for hiking.
Amen, brother. Pass the beans and rice.
I tried a tarp 4different trips, multiple nights per trip. 1st trip, the mosquitoes ate me up. 2nd trip, the tarp was great for the first few hot nights, I enjoyed the breeze coming in.
Last two nights, I got absolutely soaked. The wind was blowing the rain up under the tarp and into me, all freaking day and night. It was the most miserable sleeping experience EVER.
Last trip, I shared a DoubleRainbow with a friend, they brought it. again, fine until a storm hit, and then we got soaked. Got soaked with the wind blowing rain up under and on us, and also got more drenched by constantly running out to try to adjust the damn tarp, with no possible way to correct the problem.
I will never tarp tent or tarp again. Screw the weight, I'll carry 4lbsuntilmy Lightheart dou arrives in May.
You are my new hero and gut-check advocate for a double wall tent. One good kick-butt rainstorm on high ground with 50mph winds and the tarpist realizes the truth of your post. But hey, your in-tarp misery got you a much closer connection to Nature.
That's because the features of a tarp vs. a tent are so one sided.
Most people who choose tents (or hammocks) over tarps don't have phobias but have made a logical decision based on the well understood limitations of a tarp.
Anyone who chooses a tarp solely because of the weight is a UL cultist.:p
And most shelter decisions are based solely on weight. i.e. cultist.
If you actually take the time to learn how to set it up properly and select good campsites, tarps are a great way to cut pack weight and gain a great deal of flexibility in fitting into small campsites and being able to pitch it in a variety of ways. If you don't like bugs, get a bug bivy. It's okay to not like things but I don't get why "hate" has to come into the equation.
Most tarpists chant the "select good campsite" mantra all the time, and here's proof of it on a recent BPL.com thread---
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=67460
(http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=67460)
Tipi Walter
03-26-2013, 09:35
I was out in October 2012 and wrote a long screed on the above BPL link in my trip report---
MORE TARP FLUMOX
There's a thread on BPL.com by Jared Hendren titled "First Night Camping with a Tarp: What Did I Do Wrong?" (8/23/12). There's a pic showing his minimal tarp in an A-frame configuration on a rocky ridge spine at 11,000 feet on Charleston Peak. He used 8 pegs for security and has this to say:
"I awoke at around midnight to the sound of something hitting the tarp, and then felt something cold in my down sleeping bag. It was grape sized hail, it was bouncing off of the ground and ending up all over the ground under the tarp. Shortly after that the wind picked up. Big time and my tarp was snapping in the wind. Next it started to rain, really hard, like inches per hour hard. Water started coming under the tarp everywhere, pretty soon all of the ground under the tarp was saturated and puddles started forming."
"Finally the wind ripped my tarp off of its moorings and into an adjacent tree. My sleeping bag and Thermarest were quickly soaked. So I quickly packed up my wet belongings and hiked off into the night. What did I do wrong? Poor campsite choice?"
Wow, all the crap I've been saying about tarps came back and bit him on the ass. Poor campsite choice? No, poor shelter choice. Some of the posts follow and the first reply is by Jason McSpadden---
"Jared, congratulations on using a tarp for the first time."
I laughed hard at reading this. Yeah, congratulations on getting your anus handed to you. He goes on---
"For me, I think ridgelines are not a very protected place for any type of camping . . . ."
Of course tarp campers and ultralighters would say this, they use flimsy shelters. Ridge camping is what I do most of and my Hillebergs work great. Mountaineers do ridge camping and get thru it okay with stout tents. Then Luke Schmidt writes---
"Sounds like you got hit with the "perfect storm". Water running under the tarp---theoretically site selection prevents this but occasionally it may rain so hard water goes places you would not expect. My Dad's solution to this is to hold the edge of his ground tarp up off the ground with a log or rocks. Basically it's an improvised bath tub floor. If water runs under the tent it goes under the ground tarp."
This is peculiar. So, every time you set up you place a log or rocks all around the perimeter of your ground cloth? That's a lot of logs and rocks and greatly decreases the size of your sleeping area, plus one strong gust and the ground cloth blows off the supports, and if ya don't gather the logs and rocks before sleeping and then a big storm hits you'll have to go out in the storm with a headlamp and look for logs and rocks. This is crazy. Just get a good tent with a good floor.
Dena Kelley harps on the site selection mantra---
"If you had been able to find a campsite lower down . . . ."
A prepared backpacker can camp anywhere but an ULer always says, "Find a better site because my tool won't work for that kind of shelter job." Dena Kelley ends with this outlandish quote---
"One thing that can help keep your shelter area from flooding out is to dig a small trench around the edge (where the water will drain off the tarp) and then dig a small trench to a drainage area so it will run away from you."
Dig! Dig! Dig! This is madness. No decent person trenches their shelters anymore. I can't believe BPL.com didn't ban Dena Kelley permanently from the site ha ha ha after such an incorrect comment. Now Kevin Timm says---
"It could have been worse, and likely a lightweight free standing tent would have encountered some issues there as well since it was not staked down well, and water very likely would come through the floor fabric and pool."
This is not true! My Hillebergs never leak water thru the floor. He ends with the usual UL mantra---
"I would have searched for a more sheltered spot on different ground."
Even expert backpacker Franco Darioli repeats this mantra for the unprepared---
"Nothing wrong with the way you set up the tarp, but as pointed out the location was not right that night."
No, location was great it was the shelter that was not right. Pete Staehling joins the UL bandwagon---
"I try to avoid camping that high or exposed. If I know I would have to, I'd also take a bivy."
How would a bivy stay dry from pooling ground water? How would a bivy keep your tarp from blowing away? Finally, Kevin Burton adds this crazy bit of advice---
"If this was a ridge you were exposed. Try to find someplace lower and protected by the hills and trees but still with a bit of wind and preferably away from large amounts of water if at all possible."
How the hell can you avoid large amounts of water in a rainstorm? These guys must never get out, or camp only during the best weather. I end the madness with this final post---and my own---
"Perfect storm? To me it's just usual conditions on the high ground. Ridgelines are great places to camp in storms if you carry a decent shelter and possibly not a tarp. No shelter should dictate site selection---that is, a good shelter should be a multi-tool able to handle wind, hail, rain, Lake Effect and ground sheeting water. Lake Effect is when water pools under the tent, ground sheeting is when a half-inch or more of water moves under your shelter."
"A decent shelter will not allow water to come thru the floor fabric, at least my Hillebergs don't. The question is, why carry something that has a built-in failure rate except in the most narrow of conditions?"
It's so easy to attack tarpists as they do so many things wrong so often. Bring a tarp on my trips and you will get your anus handed to you.
Tipi Walter
03-26-2013, 09:38
Finally, I was out for a 16 day trip this month of March and ran into a school running trips in the Citico/Slickrock---the Cranbrook school out of Michigan. All they use is tarps and I can guarantee you they were cold on the morning this pic was taken at 5,000 in Naked Ground Gap in the Slickrock.
http://assets.trailspace.com/assets/2/6/c/1630828/TRIP-143-295.jpg
It was bad enough to need end tarps to keep some of the cold wind out.
I've used double wall tents, tarps, single wall tents, and hybrid "shaped tarps". For three season, I now go with shaped tarps or single wall tents (for me SMD Wild Oasis or Gossamer Gear The One). Never had any critters crawl over me.
Bencape4
03-26-2013, 10:58
i prefer the idea of a tent, however i use a tarp...because my sleep system is a 45 degree bag and a thermal bivy in case i get cold. so, i cant really leave behind my bivy. and my tarp is a sea to summit backpack poncho that i use as my rain gear... so if i got a tent, it wouldnt just add some and lose some, id still have to keep all of that in my bag and it would raise my pack weight to like 15 pounds.
any tips? :/