View Full Version : Give me the straight truth - a few questions about bear bagging
There is a lot of conflicting information out there.
1) I have seen several people here say that they have always slept with their food in their tent or even as a pillow. People who seem to have a lot of experience. Is this extremely unwise? Have they just been lucky? Do bears and rodents actually not have very keen senses of smell? Does it depend mostly on the area you're in (ie. in areas with known aggressive bear behavior you are more cautious?)?
2) Is your food safe hanging from the roof of a shelter?
I've seen people hang packs and food from the roof of a shelter. It seems silly to me. For one thing, a bear could easily reach it. For another thing, if a bear is going after my food I don't really want to be on the ground beneath that food. Is it even safe from rodents if you hang it from the roof of the shelter? It doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
3) Is your food actually safe if you bear bag it from a tree? What about from the poles in front of the shelters?
People are always talking about rodents getting into their food. Are mice crafty enough to climb up a tree, go out onto the branch, and drop down onto a food bag? Or did these people leave their food on the ground or hung from a shelter, wrongly assuming that it would be safe?
sasquatch2014
01-12-2010, 15:34
1)I tend not to sleep with my food but this is a personal choice and habit. I lived for a while where the bears were bigger and meaner.
2) Again a personal choice. Many of the shelters have strings with tin cans that are used to keep the mice off the hanging pack.
3) the mice are very crafty and can do stuff you will be amazed at. I learned that it is a good idea to leave pockets open on the pack that way they will not try and chew their way in. also don't leave anything in there that they may think is food even a wrapper will send them into heavenly bliss.
1) Actually, what I've read is that bears have a great sense of smell, but questionable eyesight, or at least poor ability to decipher what they see. People have woken up with a bear sniffing their head. You decide if it's extremely unwise to increase the chance of that, or worse, from happening.
2) It may prevent some rodents, although if you want to prevent mice from getting it, you have to put something on the hanging line to prevent the rodent from getting around it and to your food. If it prevents a bear from getting it at all, it's only because it's scared of the people at the shelter. Some people say they sleep directly properly hung bear bags to deter bears. I personally don't think that's a good idea.
3) It's pretty safe from bears if you hang it properly using the PCT method or better. There's always a chance a cub could be sent up after it, and using a thinner and longer branch may help, and hanging it higher out of sight and smell helps, but there's only so much you can do.
(1) I think this varies based on actual experience, vs. what people read in books or are zealously taught in classes. From some experience on the PCT (no idea how this translates to the AT), the truth seems to be that bear encounters are pretty rare, apart from special areas where bears have become more used to interacting with humans. The Sierras are the big zone for that on the PCT; I would speculate that the Smokies, Shenandoah would be a couple places like that on the AT (?).
Outside of those zones, IMO it's still good practice to keep bears from getting at your food --- I think it's a sort of moral issue for protecting the bears. I personally compromise by using an Ursack mostly. But it wouldn't bother me to sleep with my food mostly, apart from areas where there's reason to believe that bears are more active and/or aggressive.
Rodents and other animals --- racoons, marmots, mice, rats, etc --- vary a lot based on region and time of year. I don't know how to generalize the rodent experience.
(2) " Is your food safe hanging from the roof of a shelter? "
Certainly not against a bear; I presume they're doing this as rodent-proofing only, and that the odds of bear encounter in that area are low. I believe the solution for rodents includes putting something on the line in between the roof line and the bear bag.
(3) "Is your food actually safe if you bear bag it from a tree? What about from the poles in front of the shelters?"
I think it varies depending on the bears, how you hang, and the configuration of the poles. I've frankly seen more bad bear bag hanging examples than good ones; folks are tired, maybe it's getting dark, they can't get the line over the limb they want in the place they want it, or there's just no decent tree limbs for hanging ...
If there's bear wire I think it's generally successful, though I'm aware of some places that have removed their wire and now require cannisters. Bears are not only smart, they're social, they share knowledge of how to defeat various strategies.
I think that some rodents are indeed smart enough to climb and go out on a branch and drop. Some of the worst bear pole sites that I've seen have been too close to trees, with exactly that result --- the hikers conveniently gather all their food in that one place for a rodent smorgasbord. One of the reasons I just ordered an Usack Minor (rodent, but not bear proof, lightweight).
I hang my food away from camp. More concerned about critters than bears. I accidently left a snickers in an outside pouch of my pack one night. Now I have a hole in my pack.
I hang my food next to where I'm sleeping when I have my dogs with me. Otherwise, I hang it in a tree a short distance from my campsite.
I just ordered an Usack Minor (rodent, but not bear proof, lightweight).
Wow, pretty lightweight too at 2.7 ounces.
I will look into that if some critter manages to get a hold of my food bag :-? No problems yet, and I always use PCT method.
I hang my food away from camp. More concerned about critters than bears. I accidently left a snickers in an outside pouch of my pack one night. Now I have a hole in my pack.
I like the idea of hanging away from camp. The mice might be crafty enough to climb out and drop down on a food bag, but if yours is 100 feet away and there are easier targets closer by, you're probably safe.
I usually hang a ways away anyways just because I don't want to be close by if a bear goes for my food. But I suppose you also get the added benefit of your food being less noticeable to the rodents.
Plus hanging away from camp gets it further away from a well known feeding ground for rodents.
bigcranky
01-12-2010, 16:09
Bears don't, as a general rule, climb inside shelters to forage at the hanging buffet line. People hang their food bags from the ceiling to keep the mice out, though their success rate is highly variable. (Shelter mice are amazing little critters.)
Eastern Black Bears don't, as a general rule, rip into your tent to grab your food bag from under your head. However, although the chances of this happening are very, very small, the penalty when it does happen could be bad. So I don't sleep with my food in my personal shelter (tent, tarp, whatever.) But some people do, and they are still alive to talk about it.
When I want to hang a bear bag, the PCT method works well and is fairly simple (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html). If done properly, it's also more bearproof than the other methods (though they can all be breached by a determined bear, especially if there are cubs who can walk out on a smaller branch to chew through your line.)
Since 2004 I have been using an Ursack, so I don't worry about this stuff anymore.
Jester2000
01-12-2010, 16:09
I tend to sleep with my food, except in places where a bear encounter is likely. For the most part this includes the Smokies and New Jersey, and there are poles or bear boxes near shelters in these areas. If I'm passing through an area where I see these things at the shelters, I'll bear bag when I'm tenting.
I believe the AT passes through a bear sanctuary in NC (or at least I saw a sign to that effect), so that might be another place.
Generally speaking, bear encounters are rare at shelters. Why? I can't say for sure. Too many people around? Maybe (unlike places like Yosemite) lack of road access means less really yummy smelling food (like meat)? And more remote locations might paradoxically mean less problems, as bears unused to humans don't like to bother with humans.
So the upshot of all of that is, people in shelters are hanging their food to deal with rodents. Sometimes an upside down tuna can tied halfway down the hanger stymies mice. Sometimes it doesn't. They're clever. But it's better than nothing.
Done correctly, bear baggng is probably a good idea, and probably works. At the very least, if the bear does get your food, he's not in your tent with you when he does it.
But I know that at the end of a long day, sometimes in the dark, I'm probably not going to do it correctly. And most of the time, it's not necessary.
Generally speaking, bear encounters are rare at shelters. Why? I can't say for sure. Too many people around?
Too many very very stinky (and smellable from far away) people around? :-?
So the upshot of all of that is, people in shelters are hanging their food to deal with rodents. Sometimes an upside down tuna can tied halfway down the hanger stymies mice. Sometimes it doesn't. They're clever. But it's better than nothing.
Done correctly, bear baggng is probably a good idea, and probably works. At the very least, if the bear does get your food, he's not in your tent with you when he does it.
But I know that at the end of a long day, sometimes in the dark, I'm probably not going to do it correctly. And most of the time, it's not necessary.
Frankly I'm more worried about the mice than the bears. But the term "mouse-bagging" just doesn't have the same zing to it. I suppose even if you don't hang it high enough, just getting it a bit further away from the shelter is probably better than hanging it and hoping they can't figure out the tuna can. While the shelter mice are busy trying to get at the packs in there, your food will theoretically go unnoticed 50 feet away in a tree.
Lone Wolf
01-12-2010, 16:28
i always have and always will sleep with my food in my tent. never had a problem with animals. ever
They have a saying: Hang your food- kill a bear.:eek:
Thats because most don't have a clue how to hang properly and could care less.:mad:
DrRichardCranium
01-12-2010, 17:18
i always have and always will sleep with my food in my tent. never had a problem with animals. ever
But wasn't there someone on these boards in 2009 who did exactly that, and had a bear actually tear into his tent and grab his food bag?:eek: Which was lying right next to his head?:eek::eek:
Pedaling Fool
01-12-2010, 17:23
There is a lot of conflicting information out there.
1) I have seen several people here say that they have always slept with their food in their tent or even as a pillow. People who seem to have a lot of experience. Is this extremely unwise? Have they just been lucky? Do bears and rodents actually not have very keen senses of smell? Does it depend mostly on the area you're in (ie. in areas with known aggressive bear behavior you are more cautious?)?
I've always brought my food into my tent. I've had mice run over top of my tent, animals sniff against my tent, but never had anything chew into my tent. I know it's a possibility, but at least I'll be there to protect it, just my mindset. I've heard too many stories of food being stolen by pole climbing racoons or flying squirrels (or even primates;)). Yes the non-primate animals can smell my food.
There is a lot of conflicting information out there.
2) Is your food safe hanging from the roof of a shelter?
I've seen people hang packs and food from the roof of a shelter. It seems silly to me. For one thing, a bear could easily reach it. For another thing, if a bear is going after my food I don't really want to be on the ground beneath that food. Is it even safe from rodents if you hang it from the roof of the shelter? It doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
As long as you have some sort of can/bottle on the line a mouse won't get into your food, unless you hang your bag against a beam/wall that will allow a mouse climb from the beam to your bag.
As for a bear, the idea is that a bear will not come close to a shelter full of people. But then again we are talking about pansyass hikers...:D
Pedaling Fool
01-12-2010, 17:26
But wasn't there someone on these boards in 2009 who did exactly that, and had a bear actually tear into his tent and grab his food bag?:eek: Which was lying right next to his head?:eek::eek:
I acknowledge there is a possibility (small) of this happening, so I keep my folded saw next to me (about 18" long) and will whack the nose of anything that penetrates my humble abode.
But wasn't there someone on these boards in 2009 who did exactly that, and had a bear actually tear into his tent and grab his food bag?:eek: Which was lying right next to his head?:eek::eek:
That person probably didn't have their food properly sealed.
I acknowledge there is a possibility (small) of this happening, so I keep my folded saw next to me (about 18" long) and will whack the nose of anything that penetrates my humble abode.
Again, my fears are more about mice and other rodents, rather than bears. You might whack that mouse after it chews into your tent, but now you've got a chewed up tent :o But I guess so far so good for you.
Pedaling Fool
01-12-2010, 17:36
Again, my fears are more about mice and other rodents, rather than bears. You might whack that mouse after it chews into your tent, but now you've got a chewed up tent :o But I guess so far so good for you.
A little duct tape and the tent will be fine:D besides I always need an excuse to go to the outfitter:sun
Jester2000
01-12-2010, 17:50
But wasn't there someone on these boards in 2009 who did exactly that, and had a bear actually tear into his tent and grab his food bag?:eek: Which was lying right next to his head?:eek::eek:
It happened to Chaco and Little Bear. But it wasn't just that he had the food in his tent -- there was also this:
it was stupid on mine and Chacos part, when we walked up about 100 yards, south of where we camped there was all kinds of trash where boaters and locals must hang out. we should have probably not camped there. . .
So being aware of what's around you is important. Read shelter registers to find out about bear activity. It's the habituated bears that pull this sort of stunt. So stay away from the kind of places mentioned above and avoid them; don't camp near places where car campers frequent; read shelter entries and be aware of where "official" bear food protection is in place (if there are bear boxes at a shelter, you can reasonably assume there's a good reason why).
I try to be aware of my surroundings and make good choices as to where I camp. That's not going to guarantee that a bear won't show up. But bears are smart, and they go where they've had success. Avoid those kinds of places.
Most times you can safely sleep with your food. Most times you can drive home safely after a night of heavy drinking. Most times you'll survive one round of russian roulette.
sasquatch2014
01-12-2010, 19:51
Most times you can safely sleep with your food. Most times you can drive home safely after a night of heavy drinking. Most times you'll survive one round of russian roulette.
most times you won't get caught for running a red light or catch a VD from that hooker in the Red Light District, most times.
Had a mini bear put a hole in my tent while the son was camping at a state park. tore a hole right in it for a bag of raisins.
You can bear bag and not worry about it
Not bear bag and worry about that twig snap in the middle of the night.
Once in a great while you might want to consider it. Just use common sense. I usually put food in the metal box if one is provided but not toothpaste and stuff like that, and usually keep out a snack...that's more to protect the food than myself. Your physical person is safe from bears on the trail but sometimes your food isn't, nor from other critters. So if a bear is bugging you and you really want to hang a bag just to get some sleep, make sure you hang it where the bear can't get it...remember the obvious tree is the one everyone uses and the bear has been working on that tree his whole life, I promise you 99.9% of bear stole my food stories, the food was hung and the bear snagged it from the tree, they virtually never take food that is well guarded by people. So in my book the food is safest in my tent with me, because that's what he's afraid of, me. Don't leave your food in your tent unguarded when you go to the water though...
The straight truth....hmmm
At least one person from WB gets theirs taken about once a year.
WB members and other forum members are a very low percentage of AT hikers.
I'd like to see the real stats to make a final conclusion.
Blissful
01-12-2010, 22:46
I won't risk my new and expensive tent by a rodent or raccoon chew. I hang.
Here's the link on the member who had his tent ripped into and bag swiped from next to his head:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53036&highlight=food+bag+head
A loooooooong time ago a woman in the White Mts. lost an eye to a black bear. He wasn't after her, it was the food in her tent. Her eye happened to be where the claw went through the tent.
A loooooooong time ago a woman in the White Mts. lost an eye to a black bear. He wasn't after her, it was the food in her tent. Her eye happened to be where the claw went through the tent.
But but but that's the safest place for the food! Where else would you put your food when you place the safety of your food over the safety of your life?
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 02:04
Here's the link on the member who had his tent ripped into and bag swiped from next to his head:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53036&highlight=food+bag+head.
I quoted from that thread earlier. I'd like to call everyone's attention again to the post in that thread where Little Bear points out that in hindsight, they shouldn't have been camped at that location at all.
:-? The best advice is use common sense.
As allready noted, many or most times you will have no problems,
But I never sleep with food.
In some areas there are bears that have been fed by humans and associate us with food. Generally if you feed a bear, even by accident, you have sealed their fate. Relocation only does so much and as the bear gets more used to the food train he will eventually be eliminated.
Small animal damage is a nuisance that you can avoid, if you think about it.
For the bears safety, mostly, and some for ours, Hanging your food is the best bet. The animals are only seeking a meal. We should know better.
If you are not aware of your surroundings you have a chance to remove yourself from the gene pool. Darwin?
Fiddleback
01-13-2010, 10:03
Do bears and rodents actually not have very keen senses of smell??
This addresses grizzlys' sense of smell, http://www.missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_e90b9662-7629-5442-8568-3c0c50826899.html . Although the article touches upon polar bears' sense of smell I don't think it addresses black bears' olfactory skills. But it's a good read...
FB
My general actions include:
1) If bear cables/poles are supplied, I use them. Must be a valid reason the maintainers went to the trouble.
2) If others are hanging their food in the shelter to make it more inconveniet for small rodents, I hang mine in the shelter. I figure if there are a number of folks in the shelter, there is safety in numbers and a bear would back off. Never seen one not, but not saying it couldn't happen.
3) If other folks are hanging their food away from the shelter, I do so too. I consider that common courtesy. If they are concerned, then it defeats the purpose of their precautions if I leave my food hanging in the shelter.
I'm not saying I haven't broken these "rules" now and then. One particular time, when I chose to sleep with my food in my pack next to me cowboy camping in SNP I did have a very tense few minutes when a large animal was wandering around the camp in the dark. Once I got the courage to turn on my light, it was just a big buck sniffing around. Other times I've been more worried about the wild bores routing around.
It all depends on where, when and with who I'm camping. I try to fit to the group level of precautions. Guess this means I'm not terribly concerned myself, but try to be sensitive to other's concerns.
Note: This applies to the east, if in Grizzly country, I'd be more cautious.
:-?
In some areas there are bears that have been fed by humans and associate us with food. Generally if you feed a bear, even by accident, you have sealed their fate. Relocation only does so much and as the bear gets more used to the food train he will eventually be eliminated.
This past September when I had to deal with several campsite/shelter closings in the Smokies due to aggressive bears, I had the opportunity to talk with one of the long-time ridge-runners. He was waiting for an air-drop of timbers to be used in the reconstruction of a shelter.
According to him, there were two main reason the chain link fences were being removed from the shelters:
1) Hikers had gotten so sloppy with cooking inside the shelters, that it had actually become a sanitation concern. So much spilled food, drained pasta, trash, etc. right inside the shelter.
2) More than just a few confirmed instances of hikers actually baiting the bears so they could watch them. Actually leaving food out to draw them into the shelter site. Reminiscent of the old movies of people gathering to feed the dump bears. I couldn't believe that today's hikers were not beyond such behavior, but he assured me they were not.
I'm completely ignorant when it comes to this. The UK's largest predator is a badger! Never camped anywhere where rodents are a problem either.
When I camp, I tend to take my ortlieb rucksack liner out and stuff my pack into it at night, leaving it outside my tent to free up space. It's very waterproof and so I have peace of mind when leaving it outside.
I don't think rodents can chew through the material and hope I'll be safe from bears by leaving it outside. I think it should mask the odours too anyway. But not entirely sure. If there are reports of bear activity, then I'll hang it up to be on the safe side.
Is this a sensible approach?
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 12:35
This past September when I had to deal with several campsite/shelter closings in the Smokies due to aggressive bears, I had the opportunity to talk with one of the long-time ridge-runners. He was waiting for an air-drop of timbers to be used in the reconstruction of a shelter.
According to him, there were two main reason the chain link fences were being removed from the shelters:
1) Hikers had gotten so sloppy with cooking inside the shelters, that it had actually become a sanitation concern. So much spilled food, drained pasta, trash, etc. right inside the shelter.
2) More than just a few confirmed instances of hikers actually baiting the bears so they could watch them. Actually leaving food out to draw them into the shelter site. Reminiscent of the old movies of people gathering to feed the dump bears. I couldn't believe that today's hikers were not beyond such behavior, but he assured me they were not.
They've been talking about removing chain link fencing for years. When I hiked, they had only removed the fencing at Ice Water Springs Shelter, and they had fencing nearby, ready to reinstall if there was an incident.
I think the biggest problem, alluded to in this post, is that food security is lax when you think you're safe. Heighten the possible danger by removing the fencing, and people are more likely to be careful with their food, whether cooking or storing.
As far as baiting goes, we have to remember the volume of visitors in the Smokies, and the fact that an awful lot of the visitors do not have the same mindset as long distance hikers. "Today's hikers" in the Smokies are a disparate lot, with differing levels of experience and awareness. This is not to excuse the behavior, but we shouldn't be all that surprised.
That fact does create a problem as far as thinking that increased perceived danger equals more care. Will someone whose only previous experience is car camping in non-bear intensive areas know to take more care when cooking or storing food?
Big Dawg
01-13-2010, 14:32
Give me the straight truth
ok... here it is...
sleep w/ your food!! :D
or else it may get lonely up in a tree by itself,,,, and provide a midnight snack to critters.:eek:
I don't think the Ortlieb bag will keep out whatever chews that wants what is inside.
Another problem is the "salt" from sweat: I hang my pack for that reason.
I did use a "kayak" bag like that, once, above treeline, far from my camp. I put the garbage from supper exposed on a rock bald further away from my camp. It was untouched. I picked it up the next morning.
I had felt aware a grizzly lived ahead on the trail. That is why I stopped where I did.
Apparently that particular grizzly that lived ahead in a meadow was not habituated to human food (e.g. Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana) and so I don't know if the bag protected the food, or not.
Ursack (http://www.ursack.com/index.html) has nice bags mentioned further up the thread, for rodents (http://www.ursack.com/ursack-minor.htm) and for bears (http://www.ursack.com/ursack-catalog.htm). I use the Loksak Opsak (http://www.loksak.com/products/opsak) every hike, one for food and one for garbage. I also pack my cooking gear and stove in Opsak bags.
I am convinced the Opsak bag is the minimum protection, from bears and from chipmunks and raccoons and mice.
Yosemite and other specific places require bear-proof solid containers, available for rental. A number of different makers have approved containers which may be purchased online. I like the approved lightweight carbon fiber one. They all are expensive. If I have to, I will rent one.
Jester2000
01-13-2010, 16:43
Another problem is the "salt" from sweat: I hang my pack for that reason.
Connie has a good point here, particularly because it's something you might not think of.
There's a spot on the PCT where the deer are getting notorious for attempting to steal hiking poles and packs because of the salt on gear.
And porcupines have been known to chew on shoes left on the ground in front of shelters for the same reason.
Best to at least get salty items off the ground and secure.
You gotta have some common sense to sleep w/your food.:-?
Leaving open or poorly sealed food in your tent, or leaving your food ungaurded is asking for trouble.;)
A thin barrier of nylon may offer a bit more protection than a poorly hung bag but the best way, in my opinion, is to keep your smellables well sealed and gaurded.:)
Your bag might be safe hanging, you might break a bone on the trail and you might get in wreck getting to the trail. Stay at home if your afraid of what might happen- cause anything can.:eek:
I like my odds much better when my food is with me. Chalk it up to experience over fear of the unknown.:-?