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chris
09-14-2004, 04:58
At the risk of incuring the wrath of some of the members of this site, I would like to state my experience this summer in regards to treatment of water. Between Damascus, VA (home of everyone's favorite Larry) and Manchester Center, VT, I treated water with iodine fewer than 7 times. The rest was drunk straight from the source. The sources were only those that I believed to be relatively good, and never did I drink from a lake or pond without treating (and then only twice). I had spent two years drinking without treating and felt fairly confident in choosing a good source, and in my body's ability to fight off, or atleast counteract, whatever was bad in the water.

I do not recommend this method of obtaining water for a new hiker. However, if you have the rest of the year to experiment, you might want to give this a shot. The worst that will happen, probably, is a case of Giardia. Or, you might die from crypto. However, this is unlikely. Learn to spot a good source (meaning, read some Jardine, watch other hikers, and have an open mind), toughen your body, and then be able to drink beautiful water without the twinge of iodine or the hastle of a filter. Note that in NJ and NY there are few sources worth drinking, so you'll need some method of treating water anyways.

Jaybird
09-14-2004, 05:11
Chris:

this has been my experience too! although a lowly "section-hiker"...when i'm out on the trail for 1 week up to 3 weeks....i take the iodine tabs..just in case the water source looks questionable...but, most times....i drink right out of the water source...& have never had any problems.

i take 2 28oz water bottles with me. (next month on a short section hike...i'll prob. take 2 32oz bottles)

thanks for the report! :D

Jaybird
09-14-2004, 05:12
Chris:

this has been my experience too! although a lowly "section-hiker"...when i'm out on the trail for 1 week up to 3 weeks....i take the iodine tabs..just in case the water source looks questionable...but, most times....i drink right out of the water source...& have never had any problems.

i take 2 28oz water bottles with me. (next month on a short section hike...Hampton,TN to Damascus,VA,...i'll prob. take 2 32oz bottles)

thanks for the report! :D

Peaks
09-14-2004, 07:58
As in life, common sence will go a long way on the AT. That being said, people have different tolerance for untreated water. Some seem to have a very strong constitution, while others much less.

Some where I read about a degree of confidence relative to purity of water. It went something like:

Very high degree of confidence when water comes out of a faucet or hose.

High degree of confidence when water comes directly out of the ground, such as at a spring.

Marginal degree of confidence when water comes out of running water, such as a stream.

Low degree of confidence when water comes out of standing water, such as pond.

Some people don't treat anything. Some people treat everything. Myself, I considered the source, and then acted appropriately. And didn't have a problem. The obvious advise is when in doubt, treat the water. Why risk sickness ruining your adventure of a lifetime.

tlbj6142
09-14-2004, 09:27
On my recent Maine section hike, I came very close to not treating (Aqua Mira) water a couple of times. But in the end I chickened out.

There were a couple of ice cold, crystal clear streams in that section that I knew could not be all that bad as there wasn't much mountain above me.

Now the low level ponds and streams I'd still treat. With the large number of Moose and Beaver(?) in the area it seems like a wise thing to do.

Maybe on the next trip. Who knows....

Jersey Bob
09-14-2004, 10:46
at least 10 characters

Blue Jay
09-14-2004, 11:30
I know a few people who only use probiotics such as garlic and yogert to strengthen the "good" bacteria to such a level that when "bad" bacteria/virus/any other small nasty gets into you it is defeated by your own immune system. I had a severe problem once and would not risk having that happen again, so I filter.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 11:37
I filter also...filters are cheap and not very heavy,,,why take a chance ..one good case of the "squirts" will change your mind. to not filter or treat your water is foolhardy...

Down by the spring on a holler log
shell of a crawfish bones of a frog.
Late last night by the dark o the moon.
down by the spring it was Mr. Racoon.

It starts with an S
and ends with a T!

Jersey Bob
09-14-2004, 11:41
at least 10 characters

SavageLlama
09-14-2004, 12:32
filters are cheap and not very heavy, why take a chance ..one good case of the "squirts" will change your mind. Agreed. No worse way to ruin a hiking trip then going home early with a massive stomach ache and a runny ass. :-?

I also don't like "trail spices" in my water and dinner.. the extra weight of the filter is worth crystal clear water in my book. :cool:

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 12:46
:-?..... Scoot?

NOPE..

it starts with an S and ends with T,
it comes out of you and it comes out of me.

Jersey Bob
09-14-2004, 13:01
at least 10 characters

TDale
09-14-2004, 13:04
no risk water is good to me. filter fanatic.

bearbait2k4
09-14-2004, 13:20
With experience and a little common sense comes knowledge about treating and/or filtering water.

I would say that I could go without filtering 80-90% of the time, but I usually do something to the water.

Of course, I don't have a panic attack if I don't filter or treat water, either.

High elevation sources are usually fine, especially if they are quick running currents. Any spring where you can see the source is great; just stay away from any standing water if you're not going to filter.

It's also important to know your surroundings, too. People get sick every year, without fail, in Tennessee (on the trail) because of all the agriculture, old still contaminants, etc. And you probably would want to filter water from a source with the word "Nuclear" in the name. Even so, more people will get sick from human to human contact than straight from a water source.

Education and experience will almost always guide you correctly when it comes to water sources and filtration.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 13:25
a couple years a ago I spent two days at cold springs shelter....I sat and watched birds come to the spring right at the source where they got in the water and bathed and took a bird ****...some hikers come along and scared that bird off on thier approach ..then they drank bird **** water...but to each thier own...

even filtering is not 100% safe but it sure decreases your chances of picking up a bug.

flyfisher
09-14-2004, 14:25
This is a nice thread.

Good, balanced presentations on both sides of an issue without any name calling.

I'm proud of us!

tlbj6142
09-14-2004, 14:31
So how do you identify a "good" source?

What do you see that would identify the source as "bad" (requiring treatment)?

The Hog
09-14-2004, 18:39
The year I thru hiked, I met one guy who reported "nearly dying on a mountaintop from Giardia." Giardia Don probably wished he would die during his ordeal. Sadly, I didn't learn from his misfortune. I boiled part of the time, and took my chances with sources that looked good. As a result, I got sick several times. Several years after my thru hike, I had the opportunity to work and learn about water microbiology. I spent over 16 years working in a microbiology lab and learned that so-called pristine sources (spring water coming right out of the ground) are routinely infested with a variety of organisms. I also learned that viruses cause over half of all gastrointestinal illness. Now, since I don't like the taste of iodine, and don't like to wait, I carry an Exstream bottle that handles protozoans like Giardia and Cryptosporidium, bacteria, and viruses. It's reasonably lightweight and you can drink the water immediately. There's no aftertaste that I can detect. While many report drinking untreated and unfiltered water and getting away with it, many others (including myself) have been thru the ordeal of gastrointestinal hell and would never want to repeat the experience. In the final analysis, you have to ask yourself, why would you want to put the trip of a lifetime at risk?

Lone Wolf
09-14-2004, 21:35
I have never treated or filtered any water on the AT. Never been sick either.

sloetoe
09-14-2004, 21:37
At the risk of incuring the wrath of some of the members of this site, I would like to state my experience this summer in regards to treatment of water. Between Damascus, VA (home of everyone's favorite Larry) and Manchester Center, VT, I treated water with iodine fewer than 7 times. The rest was drunk straight from the source.

Welcome to the club, Chris.
Sheesh, to hear some people go on about it, it is amazing that anyone made it from Georgia to Maine before we were graced with the heavy, expensive, or time-consuming habits of goofing with our AT water. In the miles and miles of WADING and BUSHWHACKING this summer, we were never even tempted.

My sons and I have hiked a third of the AT now (that's ~725 miles x3), and have an opportunity to reevaluate all decisions with each and every start.

Screwing with water is foolishness. But profitable for some.

sloetoe
GA->ME'79
who once drank from a 1" deep puddle, maybe 3' long, high above some NJ lake, with ciggy-butts percolating at one end, skeeter-youth floating in the middle, and fine black goo silting the bottom.
MMMmmmm. And people wonder why I prefer Guinness.

Alligator
09-15-2004, 10:51
Chris, I agree.
BTW on the NJ AT, one safe well placed source is the outdoor tap at the Mohican Outdoor Center. It's 1/4+ mile north (towards Mohican) on the gravel road that crosses the AT.

Bob
One NJ water source I thought to be suspicious was at the white house the Dept. of Environmental Protection owns. Just after the Wallkill NWR. It seems that if the DEP owns the place, something is wrong with it. If something is wrong with it, why do they tell you it's a water source:confused: .

I filled up and had lunch there though :D . My rationale was that maybe it was a radon site. It seemed like there were a lot of spigot options in NJ.

jackiebolen
09-15-2004, 11:36
I hiked 1500 miles of the AT this past spring/summer from GA-MA and didn't treat my water a single time after the first day on the trail. I had stomach troubles for 3 or 4 days but I suspect it had a lot more to do with the Pizza Hut Buffet than any bad water I drank. Backpacking companies try to convince you that you need to buy all their water treatment crap and that you'll die if you don't but you have a brain, think for yourself! Just don't drink from sketchy sources and plan your day around town or spring water, worked for me.

smokymtnsteve
09-15-2004, 11:42
In areas like the smokies that have lots of use ...and folks that camp right above springs and don't practice good LNT habits...you are taking a chance by not treating your h20...you are quite entitled to take the chance. in spring thru hiker season down south here we have lots of inexperienced hikers who do all sorts of things near the water sources..

MOWGLI
09-15-2004, 11:49
So how do you identify a "good" source?

What do you see that would identify the source as "bad" (requiring treatment)?

Well, a good source should be well oxygenated. A bad source would be stagnant - not flowing.

When I choose to take a chance and drink unpurified water, I usually like to take water from a dripping source. The next best thing is a small moving stream, the smaller and the more that it flows - the better.

Another consideration is being aware of the source of your supply. By using maps, or having an awareness of the geography, you can often determine if there is development above you. If there is a camp or a road above the source, I think twice.

If there is sign of beaver in an area - I would also think twice before drinking directly from a source. Regarding giardia, if you filter all the time, but don't think twice about reaching into somebody's GORP bag along the trail, then you are probably taking a bigger chance by sharing food. NOBODY puts their hand anywhere on my food along the trail. If I share, I dump the food directly into another hikers hand, rather than have them contaminate my food with their dirty paws.

My decision to filter or not is a calculated risk, that includes the fact that I drank directly from streams & springs below the AT along the NY/NJ border (along the State Line Trail) during most of my youth. Remember, if you choose not to treat water, there is always the possibility of getting sick.

tlbj6142
09-15-2004, 11:59
Just don't drink from sketchy sources and plan your day around town or spring water, worked for me.How can you do that? Most of the "books" don't tell you want kind of source, just that there is a source. As such, when you reach the source you have to decide if it is "good" or "bad". Kind of makes hydration strategies a bit more complicated. Usually resulting in carrying more water than is actually needed.

smokymtnsteve
09-15-2004, 12:02
Bear also can carry giardia...so if there are bear in the area.

jackiebolen
09-15-2004, 15:58
How can you do that? Most of the "books" don't tell you want kind of source, just that there is a source. As such, when you reach the source you have to decide if it is "good" or "bad". Kind of makes hydration strategies a bit more complicated. Usually resulting in carrying more water than is actually needed.

Wingfoot's book (as least the 2002 version I used) listed springs seperately from streams and even gave a good amount of commentary on the quality of the source. I noticed the 2004 version had more water sources listed but not so much about the quality of them. Can't have it all I guess.

My hydration strategy was quite simple:

drink until I almost felt sick at the good sources and only carry 1.5 liters or so and because I was so well-hydrated to start with, I could bypass the bad sources.

IceDragon
10-02-2004, 12:59
I rarely trust water, I was sick for three months from the water in my house! Now use a ceramic drip filter at home.

orangebug
10-02-2004, 13:16
Tell us about your home water. Well water or city water? Are you certain that your illness was water borne, and not from an inadvertant lapse in hygiene? Was this crypto that even municipal water supplies occasionally suffer? Why to you generalize your bad experience to any water source?

smokymtnsteve
10-02-2004, 13:20
Tell us about your home water. Well water or city water? Are you certain that your illness was water borne, and not from an inadvertant lapse in hygiene? Was this crypto that even municipal water supplies occasionally suffer? Why to you generalize your bad experience to any water source?


Maybe IceDragon is from Milwaukee,,,just a few years ago (1993)the Municipal Water system of Milwaukee had a HUGE outbreak of Crypto.

orangebug
10-02-2004, 13:24
We had it closer to your home, in Carrolton, GA in the late 80's/early 90's. They had a terrible time figuring out where the contamination was.

smokymtnsteve
10-02-2004, 13:26
Im sure there is little crypto in the water around the Roan Highlands what with all that cattle, and right beyond 19E ,,,lots of cattle in that area also.

Hammock Hanger
10-02-2004, 14:09
to not filter or treat your water is foolhardy...

that maybe true but I haven't filtered or treated in years... in FL, in the south, mid-Atlantics or up north. I will probably chemically treat when I hike Colorado but then again maybe not...

I don't recommend this to anyone, it is a gamble but after 1000's of miles on the trail and no discomfort I am happy with it and take that gamble.

Chemicals are very lightwt and pretty easy to use. Filters are a joke as most people comtaminate their filters without even knowing it.

just my humble opinion Sue/HH

Lone Wolf
10-02-2004, 14:38
I'm with you HH. 18 years and thousands of miles on the AT and I've never filtered or treated any water.

Frosty
10-02-2004, 14:38
I rarely trust water, I was sick for three months from the water in my house! Now use a ceramic drip filter at home.I had a problem with the water where I used to live, also. Real nightmare until we finaly found out what was going on.

Frosty
10-02-2004, 14:52
Chemicals are very lightwt and pretty easy to use. Filters are a joke as most people comtaminate their filters without even knowing it.Sue/HHHmmh. I use a filter (vice chemicals) to avoid contamination. The inlet hose is always the inlet hose, and the outlet screws onto a Nalgene. With chemicals, I always wondered: If you dip the bottle into water to fill it, then add chemicals, how does the rim of the bottle get purified?

It's still possible to contaminate the outlet of the filter, of course, but if the water is okay to drink to begin with, as people say, then no harm will come :)

I am operating from the assumption that most water is okay, but a small percentage is not (for sake of argument, say 5%). Not knowing which of any given supply falls into that small percentage, I generally filter water. Should I screw up, I am no worse off than if I hadn't filtered, and tHe chances are 20 to 1 that I screwed up on one of the 95% of water sources that are okay.

The other reason I carry a filter is that I can get water from sources I might not dip a cup into, allowing me to filter up a liter or so every water source, and not carry much water at any given time.

I think too that I am generally cautious, and prefer to be prepared. This is probably the biggest reason that people filter, carry maps and first aid kits, etc etc.

I think filtering or not filtering is a personal choice, like daily mileage and hiking speed. Or whether or not to eat Ramen noodles :)

smokymtnsteve
10-02-2004, 15:51
don't worry HH and LW...

I also carry Immodium in my over equipped
first aid/emergency bag and will be more than happy to let you have one if the need ever arises. ;)

In regard to comtaminated hoses and filter outlets,,,it is true, proper technique is important in handling your filter, also after gathering water clean your hands with alcohol gel ( a GOOD use for alkyhol :D ). When your cleaning up after supper or even fixin supper,,,you have boiling water available,,,this is when you can clean your filter outlet and outlet hose/bottle cap. btw BOILING is the Best method of H2o tx.

Flash Hand
10-02-2004, 17:51
I'm with you HH. 18 years and thousands of miles on the AT and I've never filtered or treated any water.

yeah right, you don't drink water but booze. :D

Flash Hand :jump

Hammock Hanger
10-02-2004, 21:33
The other reason I carry a filter is that I can get water from sources I might not dip a cup into, allowing me to filter up a liter or so every water source, and not carry much water at any given time.

I think filtering or not filtering is a personal choice, like daily mileage and hiking speed. Or whether or not to eat Ramen noodles :)

I will agree that the summer of 2002 when water was very scare those who filtered were able to siphon water from places I was unable to dip in.

I agree that filtering is a personal choice... now as far as Ramen goes, No Way!

Sue/HH

smokymtnsteve
10-02-2004, 22:20
Yea..Frosty,,,JUST SAY NO to the ramens. ;)

Peaks
10-03-2004, 07:53
Hmmh. With chemicals, I always wondered: If you dip the bottle into water to fill it, then add chemicals, how does the rim of the bottle get purified? :)

Real easy. After adding chemicals, invert the bottle, and loosen the cap slightly so that some water dribbles out.

Rain Man
10-03-2004, 10:01
Real easy. After adding chemicals, invert the bottle, and loosen the cap slightly so that some water dribbles out.

Peaks... amazing what one can learn from reading the instructions, ain't it?!!! LOL
:sun
Rain Man

.

orangebug
10-03-2004, 10:42
In today's news was an article about the annual IgNoble Awards. One went to a young lady who studied that the 5 second rule (food is okay if retrieved from the floor within 5 seconds) was actually pretty true. Reasonably clean floors are fairly free of pathogenic organisms. She also found that women are more likely than men to eat the fruit of the 5 second rule.

Somehow, the complicated procedures involved in filtering and chemical treatments seem to pale in the light of the 5 second rule. I continue to suspect that more GI events could be prevented from the use of alcohol gel post toileting, and the absolute refusal to allow anyone to touch your food.

kentucky
10-03-2004, 10:54
I have very seldom treated water bring pills just in case I remember meeting lone wolf in conn.and speaking about this in 99 ,2000? But I think that its a personal opinion most people filter because others are doing the same!I would say from my experience I wouldnt trust them filter things just about everbody I have hiked around that has used them had some kind of problem with them!out west this summer I used some of them pills a couple of times but for the most part I just drink water where I feel safe!:D kentucky

Lone Wolf
10-03-2004, 11:01
Yeah Kentucky, that was 98. I was getting water out of the pond that was the water source for the shelter. It was somewhat brown and warm. I dumped in some grape kool-aid mix. That's how I treat water. :D

kentucky
10-03-2004, 11:03
well it worked:D kentucky

Crash
10-03-2004, 22:42
Ive never treated my water in Pa or Md. Always got it from a spring's source. never got sick. trick is to wash your hands first.

highway
10-07-2004, 08:55
I really think thats just another of those "urban legends" fostered upon us by the fearful, the manufacturers, or whoever. I suspect most of the "trots" is cause by poor hygiene rather than water.

I don't just drink from springs but from flowing streams too. In fact, I really enjoy doing it right beside others who I find busily pumping away on some filter or another before they think they can drink. :p

And, HH, I don't use it in Colorado, either.

Hammock Hanger
10-07-2004, 09:53
And, HH, I don't use it in Colorado, either.

Thanks for the heads up that is good to know. :banana


Sue/HH

warren doyle
10-07-2004, 11:51
27,000 miles on the AT. I have never filtered or treated my water. I had giardia for nine years. I enjoy the companionship. I suffered when it left. Hope it visits again.

Can fear of water lead to self-loathing?

Rambler
10-09-2004, 17:58
Last week while sitting in an outhouse along the AT in Maine, (the latrine was literally two steps off the trail,) I read a generic typed notice posted inside. It did not give note of the author, but it started..."while visiting our National Parks..." It went on to talk about giardia. It decribed the symptons, and sources of contamination including humans and dogs. Then it claimed that the only true way to kill the bacteria or germ was to boil the water. The water did not have to reach the boiling point to do the job, but without a thermometer, seeing the water reach a boil was the only certain way of knowing the water was hot enough. Most surprising was the claim that neither chlorine, iodine or common hiker filters could guarantee to do the job.
Ealier I had been told that extended use of chemicals or iodine would not be good for one's system, I started going back to using a filter. Having known of two people who cuaght giardia, it is not something I want to leave to chance. Often times in New England, a nice flowing stream might indeed originate in a pond with moose standing in it. The odds are with those who do not treat the water, but filters or chemicals are easy to use. I also use the non-towel drying disinfectatnt to wash off hands, especially after using TP.

orangebug
10-09-2004, 18:51
The extended use of Chlorine and Iodine in recommended doses for water treatment are no problem to humans. Filters and bleaches all fail a small percent of the time. Boiling all water increases your time and fuel costs.

There are no guarantees. It is a matter of taking assessment of your comfort with risk. I carry Iodine (Polar Pure) more for first aid than for water treatment.

MadAussieInLondon
10-10-2004, 05:16
i more shocked by anything that people still use iodine! :) nuffy used idodine this year and she got real sick. we managed to get her onto the aquamirra. that iodine stuff is baaad. saying that i treated with AM, all my water this year.

the funny thing was, wed fill up in town just before leaving, without treating it (since it was city water), in each. boy i would quickly dump that city water and do the AM from some spring. citywater tasted just.. wrong.

(where i grew up in australia all our water was flurodated). here in england its LOADED with limescale. eyuck.

as for th e5second rule, we became like trained monkeys, able to grab food out of midair before it hit the ground! :)

orangebug
10-10-2004, 08:10
i more shocked by anything that people still use iodine! :) nuffy used idodine this year and she got real sick. we managed to get her onto the aquamirra. that iodine stuff is baaad. ...
What sort of sick did nuffy get from iodine? Was this a result of using an iodine based bleach correctly, or did she overdose? Are you saying that the iodine was ineffective?

Don't declare an entire element as "baaad" without some reason to back it up. Even oxygen could be considered baaad, as a waste product of photosynthesis and an oxidant. Too much fear is used in the marketing of water treatments.

(Iodine is great to prevent goiter, sanitize wounds, prevent radioactive iodine poisoning from nuclear plant accidents and use as a viruscide or other water treatment. I keep iodine available for use in exactly that order.)

SGT Rock
10-10-2004, 10:14
I may be the naysayer, but after trying Polar Pure and Aqua Mira, I like Polar Pure better.

chris
10-11-2004, 09:59
In terms of ease-of-use, there isn't anything simpler and faster than iodine. Potable Aqua is the fastest and easiest, but Polar Pure isn't far behind and is far cheapest. I tried some Aqua Mira this summer, and was a little disappointed that it did flavor the water (like bleach).

SGT Rock
10-11-2004, 10:13
Aqua Mira tasted more like some sort of lime juice added or something to me. Portable Aqua (or other iodine pills) don't bother me, in strong doses it reminds me of unsweetened ice tea. Polar Pure is a little heavier than pills, but with less taste and sometimes less color.

chris
10-11-2004, 13:30
Rock's comment reminded me of a great hot weather tip for those with iodized water: Carry a lime out of town with you. After iodizing your water (and waiting the required time), cut off a slice of lime and squeeze it into the water. Not only does the ascorbic acid neutralize the iodine taste, but on a really hot day, the limey water really hits the spot. My most appreciated trail magic on the PCT, when some dear soul left three mini limes on the side of the trail on a 100 degree day.

gravityman
10-11-2004, 15:01
Aqua Mira tasted more like some sort of lime juice added or something to me. Portable Aqua (or other iodine pills) don't bother me, in strong doses it reminds me of unsweetened ice tea. Polar Pure is a little heavier than pills, but with less taste and sometimes less color.

That's interesting. Sounds like you had too much "Part B" as that is the activator and is Phosphoric Acid. Did the solution turn a bright yellow after 5 minutes? I've never noticed a "lime" taste before...

Gravity

SGT Rock
10-11-2004, 15:09
I put in equal parts as it said, the solution turned sort of a safety greenish/yellow. maybe my taste buds are a little sensitive to the taste of it. It wasn't bad, just not what I expected.

tlbj6142
10-11-2004, 15:32
I posted this earlier, but it got lost....

There is a definate taste to AM. I always describe it as slightly sweet. But bitter might be a better word. Obviously, everyone's taste buds are a bit different. In high school biology I remember having to taste some "paper". Some folks thought it was just horable, others couldn't taste it at all. Apparently it is a taste that is passed on in genenic code.

With AM (my primary treatment method) I've never noticed a chlorine/bleach taste, but there is a chlorine/bleach smell. In fact, it is mention in the AM docs. They state the you will smell chlorine, but it is not "free" chlorine (which I guess is "bad") like you'd smell when using bleach to treat water (2-4 drops per liter).

Having used bleach and AM, I prefer AM for the taste. If the water is hard (too much iron and/or sulfur), AM actually improves the tastes of water.

I've never tried iodine, maybe I will someday.

bluebird
10-23-2004, 02:32
Its so simple to treat water, why risk a case of the squirts, and potentially ruining your (once in a lifetime for most of us) thruhike? To tell the truth I risked it here and there for the longest time.

What really solidified the value of treating/filtering water was the first time I grabbed some water from a stream of water that was flowing over a rock, seemingly from pristine snow melt. Upon hiking uptrail I witnessed a man and his son peeing into the source stream. Yuck. Don't eat / drink yellow snow!

I carried a MSR drom bag with tube, an inline filter and mouth piece. I added polar pure everytime I refilled my bag. The inline filter removes the taste of the water treatment... so that crystal clear water tasted crystal clear!

You do need to clean the tube from time to time, a little cholorine bleach does the trick.

Note... I didn't cook much other than to boil water.

I drank from beautiful mountain springs as well as footprints along the trail. No problem!

Bluebird '01

The Hog
10-23-2004, 08:42
In 1998, I filmed a deer standing in some pristine looking water, first drinking, then peeing, then pooping (in the water) within a stone's throw of a nice campsite.

Just recently, a friend and I took water from a pretty pond in the 100 mile wilderness, cooked dinner with it, filtered it for drinking, then the next morning discovered a moose carcass just underwater a (very) short distance away.

Want more? Several times, I have tested pure-looking stream water coming out of a wildlife management area in Vermont, and have always found E. coli bacteria (confirming fecal contamination).

orangebug
10-23-2004, 20:06
First, the example of the man and boy urinating upstream makes little sense, unless these guys have massive bladders and had been micturating minutes before you obtained water and continued till you saw them. Even with prostatic hypertrophy, that feat is hard to imagine.

Second, even fish defecate and urinate in the water. There are lots of bacteria on everything we breathe and touch. It happens. We swim in rivers with coliform bacteria, as well as lakes. Not everything is pathogenic, and most of us have immune systems that handle biologic contamination of our water without even a belch.

It doesn't hurt to treat water, but I doubt that it particularly helps. I strongly suspect that most "squirts" are the result of fecal/oral transmission from poor hygiene and food handling. Even so, we have not seen a huge amount of trip ending diarrhea. The choice to treat/not treat is an individual decision. Unfortunately, that decision is often contaminated by rumor, fear mongering and other marketing.

weary
10-23-2004, 21:40
First, the example of the man and boy urinating upstream makes little sense, unless these guys have massive bladders and had been micturating minutes before you obtained water and continued till you saw them. Even with prostatic hypertrophy, that feat is hard to imagine.

Second, even fish defecate and urinate in the water. There are lots of bacteria on everything we breathe and touch. It happens. We swim in rivers with coliform bacteria, as well as lakes. Not everything is pathogenic, and most of us have immune systems that handle biologic contamination of our water without even a belch.

It doesn't hurt to treat water, but I doubt that it particularly helps. I strongly suspect that most "squirts" are the result of fecal/oral transmission from poor hygiene and food handling. Even so, we have not seen a huge amount of trip ending diarrhea. The choice to treat/not treat is an individual decision. Unfortunately, that decision is often contaminated by rumor, fear mongering and other marketing.

Unlike feces, urine from most creatures, human or otherwise, is naturally harmless. So in addition to the fact that urine from healthy people (i.e. the overwhelmingly majority of hikers) rarely contains anything particularly dangerous to others, OB is obviously right. All the studies I've seen show no statistical correlation between hiker stomach upset and hiker water treatment. In fact those who don't treat their water come out slightly ahead.

But the samples are all too small to make the difference significant, one way or the other.

Those of us who have frequented wild places for most of our lives, probably are immune to most water borne diseases. I think it possible that those who are going onto trails for the first time and heretofore have drunk only from highly treated water sources or uncontaminated private wells, may well find treatment useful. But this is only speculation on my part.

But I am convinced that it is absurd to assume that water on high mountain ridges needs to be treated as if it came from third world sewers.

Weary

The Hog
10-24-2004, 07:22
Anecdotal opinions, while interesting, don't provide a solid basis for decision making. Fortunately, in the field of water microbiology, you don't have to rely on opinions to make prudent choices relating to drinking water. You can rely on the weight of evidence, on science. And the scientific evidence shows that you run a significant chance of getting sick if you drink untreated water, even water from so-called "pristine" sources.

Sure, you are free to take your chances. You are free to drink untreated water. Many people on this site have. And a significant number of them have gotten sick.

orangebug
10-24-2004, 07:42
Anecdotal opinions, while interesting, don't provide a solid basis for decision making. Fortunately, in the field of water microbiology, you don't have to rely on opinions to make prudent choices relating to drinking water. You can rely on the weight of evidence, on science. And the scientific evidence shows that you run a significant chance of getting sick if you drink untreated water, even water from so-called "pristine" sources. ...Okay, you're on!

Point us to the non-anecdotal scientific evidence that water treatment is advantageous. How about the scientific evidence that significant increase of "sickness" from untreated water from "pristine" sources in the ex-urban environment of the AT?

The weight of evidence/science doesn't support on the side of the water treatment marketers. My conjecture is that while backwoods water may not be sterile, it isn't sludge either. Available water treatments are too complicated, time consuming and inconsistently performed by hikers to provide any benefit. There is dubious evidence of a significant risk of severe illness attributable soley to water borne pathogens. The most recent pandemic of water borne diarrhea traced to tap water in Virginia.

There is more suggestion of fecal oral contamination vectored by hygiene and food handling. The concerned hiker would benefit more from alcohol gel and refusal to share food, than by any of the available water treatments.

The Hog
10-24-2004, 09:00
As a starting point, you might want to read the 1992 book, Drinking Water Microbiology. Data from many scientific studies are summarized in chapters on enteric viruses, bacteria, and protozoans (including giardia and cryptosporidium). The book cites studies that indicate that cryptosporidium is present in a large percentage of so-called "pristine" sources. The book also makes the point that viruses (such as Norwalk, Coxsackie, rotavirus)cause the majority of drinking water illness.

There are many online sources of scientific information on drinking water safety, including the EPA's site www.epa.gov/safewater , or you can call the Safe Drinking Water Hotline at 1-800-426-4791.

Bottom line: You are taking your chances by drinking untreated water.

orangebug
10-24-2004, 09:21
I'm taking chances drinking any water from any source. In the past 20 years, I've had a greater risk of crypto from metro Atlanta water than from NOGA water.

Is there any juried scientific literature demonstrating a benefit from treating water?

This should be a simple answer.

BTW, just how many dying dehydrated diarrhea victims have you noticed along the AT?

weary
10-24-2004, 16:26
....There are many online sources of scientific information on drinking water safety, including the EPA's site www.epa.gov/safewater , or you can call the Safe Drinking Water Hotline at 1-800-426-4791.
Bottom line: You are taking your chances by drinking untreated water.

Thanks for the EPA link, Hog. I'll search more thoroughly sometime, but I failed to quickly find any reference to the dangers of drinking water from high mountain sources.

I was fascinated with the reference to drinking water on air lines being 87 % safe -- which I suspect is near the "margin or error" for drinking untreated water from high mountain ridgeline springs.

I've been looking for years for a reasonably scientific study of the dangers of drinking water in the mountains. I've yet to find any. But surveys of hikers find no correlation between stomach upsets and drinking water treatment.

Obviously, not all trailside water is safe to drink. I refrain from indulging in springs I find in cow pastures -- or any hollows for that matter. But I have routinely (for 70 years or so) used untreated water from mountain springs and streams. I have never had a situation that I could attribute to such practices. Nor have I seen any scientific studies that suggest my judgment is wrong.

Weary

gravityman
10-25-2004, 11:51
I'm taking chances drinking any water from any source. In the past 20 years, I've had a greater risk of crypto from metro Atlanta water than from NOGA water.

Is there any juried scientific literature demonstrating a benefit from treating water?

This should be a simple answer.

BTW, just how many dying dehydrated diarrhea victims have you noticed along the AT?

One, but that one was my wife. She got real sick during our 2001 hike. Lost a ton of weight, had to use the facilities every few hours, and it lasted 3 months while on trail, and many months off the trail. Took about 1-2 years for her to feel more "normal." All the testing she did never revealed anything. No idea what it was, or how she got it, but we now treat ALL our water with Aqua Mira, which seems to be the most reliable from our research.

Gravity

treetrunks
10-25-2004, 12:19
I believe that drinking clorinated water as well as iodine treated water may be killing the good bugs that are normally in our systems. Then when we drink water that may have something in it we can't fight it off.

gravityman
10-25-2004, 14:19
I believe that drinking clorinated water as well as iodine treated water may be killing the good bugs that are normally in our systems. Then when we drink water that may have something in it we can't fight it off.

Sorry, but this is total bunk... It's not true...

PS Chorine is fine as an emergency water treatment, but it doesn't kill giarda or crypto until levels that are undrinkable...

MOWGLI
10-25-2004, 14:55
It would be fascinating for a thru-hiker to take samples of most of the springs and streams that cross the trail, and have them tested. It would make for an excellent, although costly & time intensive, research project that would be perfect for a Grad Student. I'd be willing to bet that giardia is not all that prevelant along the AT, except for areas with sizeable populations of beaver (VT & ME).

My unscientific hunch is that most of the cases of giardia and stomach distress are passed from hiker to hiker due to poor hygiene. Ain't nobody EVER gonna stick their hand in my food bag out on the trail.

Another thing... I would bet that 90% of those folks who use filters, use them incorrectly. I have seen very few hikers that are careful about cross contamination when using their filters. That renders those devices pretty useless.

I tend to agree with Weary, that most high mountain water sources are probably safe. Of course, I would never recommend that someone drink untreated/unfiltered water. That is a personal choice. My decision to treat or not treat water is based on a lifetime spent in the woods. I realize that every time I drink untreated water, I take a risk. It's a risk that FOR ME is occasionally worth taking.

smokymtnsteve
10-25-2004, 17:07
Another thing... I would bet that 90% of those folks who use filters, use them incorrectly. I have seen very few hikers that are careful about cross contamination when using their filters. That renders those devices pretty useless.




but jeffery, if the water is safe enough to drink without treating then how are folks cross-contaminating by using thier filter?

orangebug
10-25-2004, 17:37
Jeff's point is that the available water treatments are little different from placebo due to variations in procedures and materials.

I am certain that there is no injury from using treated water. Any elemental iodine or chlorine is turned to salt by gastric acid and enzymes.

MOWGLI
10-25-2004, 18:58
but jeffery, if the water is safe enough to drink without treating then how are folks cross-contaminating by using thier filter?

I'm certainly not suggesting all water along the trail is safe to drink, cause I'm sure it's not. It's just that IMO many folks who insist on filtering - do so in a manner that doesn't offer a whole lot of protection from the organisms that they are trying to avoid ingesting in the first place.

SMS, you've spent enough time on the trail to see how people use their filters. Would you agree or disagree that the majority of folks don't use their filters correctly?

BTW, I would bet that if I was tested for Giardiasis that I'd test positive. I believe the majority of folks who test positive never show any symptoms of infection. In other words, if Little Bear was to **** in the woods, not clean his hands, and then stick his paw in your GORP bag.... Well, you get the picture.

BTW, I carry Polar Pur when I backpack.

smokymtnsteve
10-25-2004, 19:08
In other words, if Little Bear was to **** in the woods, not clean his hands, and then stick his paw in your GORP bag.... Well, you get the picture.

BTW, I carry Polar Pur when I backpack.


I ain't gonna give U nor nobody else the chance to stick thier nasty paws in my gorp bag.


but now I might give ya a cup o coffe in the morning but you would have to have your own cup,,,and I would even pour it for ya :D

Frosty
10-25-2004, 19:28
SMS, you've spent enough time on the trail to see how people use their filters. Would you agree or disagree that the majority of folks don't use their filters correctly? Well, I'm not SMS, but if I may say so, I'm not concerned with how the majority of hikers use their filters. I am only concerned that I take care to use mine correctly. Or as properly as I can given the circumstances (and hope that any time I screw up, it will be one of those times that the water is safe).

Think of water filters like kharma. There may or may be be life after this one, but it does no one any harm to spread more good kharma than bad. And it might turn out to be a very good thing to have done.

MOWGLI
10-25-2004, 19:35
I'm not concerned with how the majority of hikers use their filters. I am only concerned that I take care to use mine correctly.

That is very wise.

smokymtnsteve
10-25-2004, 19:43
I agree Frosty..I also clean my hands with alkyhol gel after doing my business,

wether Jeffery cleans his hands afterwards is his business..long as he keeps his hands outa my gorp bag and offa my coffee press,,, :D

MOWGLI
10-25-2004, 20:00
wether Jeffery cleans his hands afterwards is his business..long as he keeps his hands outa my gorp bag and offa my coffee press,,, :D

Now your jumping to conclusions about me SMS. But I agree. A good percentage of hikers don't practice good hygiene. Heck, a good percentage of the non-hiking population doesn't - so why would a bunch of folks who don't have access to hot water & soap on a regular basis?

When you work in the same corporate building for 14 years (like I did), you learn pretty quickly whose hands you don't want to be shaking (thats one reason I'd make a lousy politician). The percentage is surprisingly large, with some of my female co-workers complaining about the lack of hand washing among their gender. Yeah, call it corporate gossip.

I ain't a germ phobic, but you'll rarely find me leaving a public restroom without using a paper towel to open the door.

smokymtnsteve
10-25-2004, 20:08
I agree too jeffery... :p

so do ya alkyhol yore paws after digging yore cathole?

I have a "dirty" pocket on my pack that I use to carry all my "dirty" gear..pooper scooper, Tp,

I get into the "dirty" pocket do my business, put everything back up close shop and then alkyhol my hands afterwards,,,,that is aleast as complusive as using a paper towel on the public Resst room door..(which I also Do) ;)

gravityman
10-26-2004, 10:59
Well, I'm not SMS, but if I may say so, I'm not concerned with how the majority of hikers use their filters. I am only concerned that I take care to use mine correctly. Or as properly as I can given the circumstances (and hope that any time I screw up, it will be one of those times that the water is safe).

Think of water filters like kharma. There may or may be be life after this one, but it does no one any harm to spread more good kharma than bad. And it might turn out to be a very good thing to have done.

I'm not so sure about the "correct" use. The main offense that people cite is the cross-contamination of the inlet and outlet hoses. In reality, it takes ingestion of a large-ish number of giardia cysts to cause a problem. A single drop or two of water isn't going to do it. However, crypto does only take a single virus. Unfortunately, no filter will get out a virus (unless it has a chemical matrix as well).

Gravity

smokymtnsteve
10-26-2004, 11:12
crypto is an oocyst,,not a virus, it can be effectively removed from h2o with a .02 micron filter. of course a single oocyst can imbed and cause distress.

Youngblood
10-26-2004, 12:35
There is another possible problem with filters besides cross contamination of hoses. The filter itself can become a source of large numbers of nasties... and then you handle it when it comes time to clean it.

Youngblood