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STEVEM
01-16-2010, 19:32
My daughter and I have decided that we needed a new challenge, so we've registered to run in the Disney World Half Marathon in January 2011.

My daughter is young and fit and will have no problem. I'm obviously older, less fit, and haven't run in many years. When I did run, I never found it all that enjoyable. Walking/hiking on the other hand has always been my favorite sport, and I'd happily walk the Half Marathon with no problem except for the fact that I'm TOO SLOW!!! According to the event rules, you need to maintain a 16min./mile pace, otherwise your packed into the "short bus" and taken to the end to watch everyone else finish.

I'm looking for advice on how I can combine jogging and walking so I can maintain the required pace. I'd also be interested in recommendations on how to approach a training program that combines both walking and running with the goal of completing the 13 mile race in 3:30.

I believe about 17,000 people compete in this event and it doesn't matter to me if I finish last overall or last in my age group. I'm looking for an approach that will allow me to finish in the required time and have fun doing it.

John B
01-16-2010, 19:41
Have you timed yourself on, say, a 6 mile road walk? I don't think you'll have any problem at all maintaining a 16. min pace. It's been my observation that most can easily sustain a 14 min. walking pace on a road. But if you want further information on run-walk plans or basic training, check out www.runnersworld.com (http://www.runnersworld.com) They have a wealth of information, and best of all, it's free.

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 19:46
Run the first half, and walk the second half.

Egads
01-16-2010, 20:08
walk 20-30 seconds per mile. this is a proven technique for recreational distance runners getting started in marathons. this allows your running group muscles to recover some every mile, it allows your heart rate to drop a little, and it gives you a psychological break

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/walk_breaks.html

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/beginners.html

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/index.shtml

go to runners world and use their Smart Coach for a training plan. You may need to register on the site to use the tool
http://www.runnersworld.com/

Egads
01-16-2010, 20:09
Run the first half, and walk the second half.

Sorry, modi, I don't recommend this approach

JAK
01-16-2010, 20:09
There is a guy.

He has a marathon training program, and race strategy, specific to your needs.

I'll be right back.

JAK
01-16-2010, 20:11
This is the guy.

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/walk_breaks.html

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 20:23
Sorry, modi, I don't recommend this approachwhy? wouldn't it average out? he's talking about a half marathon; not a marathon.

STEVEM
01-16-2010, 20:24
Have you timed yourself on, say, a 6 mile road walk? I don't think you'll have any problem at all maintaining a 16. min pace. It's been my observation that most can easily sustain a 14 min. walking pace on a road. But if you want further information on run-walk plans or basic training, check out www.runnersworld.com (http://www.runnersworld.com) They have a wealth of information, and best of all, it's free.

I average about 20min/mile. That's about an hour too slow. I guess the issue is short legs.

JAK
01-16-2010, 20:27
What is your height at weight Steve?
Also your waistline measurement, if you don't mind me asking?

Egads
01-16-2010, 20:27
why? wouldn't it average out? he's talking about a half marathon; not a marathon.

I missed the word "half", but the same principles apply for a half as for a full marathon.

See post #4 and also read the first link in the post for my reasons

STEVEM
01-16-2010, 20:33
why? wouldn't it average out? he's talking about a half marathon; not a marathon.

It works mathmatically, but I'm not sure it would work physically for me. If I run 6.5 miles I'd need to be in the same condition as I would be in to run the entire distance.

When I used to run I found that 2-miles was a barrier, It was difficult to work up to that distance, but once I achieved it I felt that I could go on forever.

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 20:33
post #4 doesn't work for me. I believe that, things in motion; stay in motion.

He has a year to train, and he can train for a 6.5 mile run. Then he can walk the other 6.5 as cool down, recreational,and enjoy the scenery.

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 20:36
It works mathmatically, but I'm not sure it would work physically for me. If I run 6.5 miles I'd need to be in the same condition as I would be in to run the entire distance.

. I don't follow the logic, but you know your body. You'll come up with a game plan that works best for you.

STEVEM
01-16-2010, 20:39
What is your height at weight Steve?
Also your waistline measurement, if you don't mind me asking?

Height:5-9"
Weight: 190#
Waist: 36"
Age: 54

Big Problem: HBP and 5 medications to control it.

My MD thinks this is a great idea.

Tinker
01-16-2010, 20:50
Skipping seems to be a combination of running and walking.

Sorry, just trying my hand at some humor.:D

Egads
01-16-2010, 21:05
post #4 doesn't work for me.

Here is Jeff Galloway's run / walk strategy

Walk Breaks?
Most runners will record significantly faster times when they take walk breaks because they don't slow down at the end of a long run. Thousands of time-goal-oriented veterans have improved by 10, 20, 30 minutes and more in marathons by taking walk breaks early and often in their goal races. You can easily spot these folks. They're the ones who are picking up speed during the last two to six miles when everyone else is slowing down.
The mental benefit: breaking 26 miles into segments, which you know you can do Even sub-three hour marathoners continue to take their walk breaks to the end. One of them explained it this way: "Instead of thinking at 20 miles I had six more gut-wretching miles to go, I was saying to myself one more mile until my break.' Even when it was tough, I always felt I could go one more mile.
Walk breaks in the marathon: how long and how often?
The following is recommended until 18 miles in the marathon. After that point, walk breaks can be reduced or eliminated as desired.
First time marathoners should follow the ratios used in training as long as they haven't slowed down significantly at the end of the long ones. If you struggled during the last few miles take walk breaks more often from the beginning. A minimum suggestion for first time marathoners would be one minute of walking for every 3-4 minutes of running.
Here are my recommended ratios of running and walking, based upon your pace per mile.
Remember that long runs should be run at least 2 min/mi slower than your projected finish pace in the marathon. An additional slowdown should be made for increased temperature: 30 sec per mile
slower for each 5 degrees of temperature increase above 60F. It is always safer to walk more often.
Run-walk-run ratio should correspond to the training pace used:
8 min/mi—run 4 min/walk 35 seconds
9 min/mi— 4 min run-1 min walk
10 min/mi—-3:1
11 min/mi—2:30-1
12 min/mi—-2:1
13 min/mi—-1:1
14 min/mi—30 sec run/30 sec walk
15 min/mi—30 sec/45 sec
16 min/mi—30 sec/60 sec
Why do walk breaks work?
By using muscles in different ways from the beginning, your legs keep their bounce as they conserve resources. When a muscle group, such as your calf, is used continuously step by step, it fatigues relatively soon. The weak areas get overused and force you to slow down later or scream at you in pain afterward. By shifting back and forth between walking and running muscles, you distribute the workload among a variety of muscles, increasing your overall performance capacity. For veteran marathoners, this is often the difference between achieving a time goal or not.
Walk breaks will significantly speed up recovery because there is less damage to repair. The early walk breaks erase fatigue, and the later walk breaks will reduce or eliminate overuse muscle breakdown.
The earlier you take the walk breaks, the more they help you!
To receive maximum benefit, you must start the walk breaks before you feel any fatigue, in the first mile. If you wait until you feel the need for a walk break, you've already reduced your potential performance.
How fast should the walk break be?
When you walk fast for a minute, most runners will lose about 15 seconds over running at their regular pace. But if you walk slowly, you'll have lost only about 20 seconds.
Once we find the ideal ratio for a given distance, walk breaks allow us to feel strong to the end and recover fast, while bestowing the same stamina and conditioning we would have received if we had run continuously.
Don't get too rigidly locked into a specific ratio of walk breaks, adjust as needed.
Even if you run the same distance every day, you'll find that you'll need to vary the walk break frequency to adjust for speed, hills, heat, humidity, time off from training, etc. If you anticipate that your run will be more difficult or will produce a longer recovery, take more frequent walk breaks (or longer walks) and you may be surprised at how quickly you recover.
Do I need to take the walk breaks on the short runs during the week?
If you can run continuously now on shorter runs, you don't have to take the walk breaks. If you want to take them, do so. Walk breaks on midweek runs will insure that you recover from the long ones at the fastest pace.

10-K
01-16-2010, 21:07
walk 20-30 seconds per mile. this is a proven technique for recreational distance runners getting started in marathons. this allows your running group muscles to recover some every mile, it allows your heart rate to drop a little, and it gives you a psychological break

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/walk_breaks.html

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/beginners.html

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/index.shtml

go to runners world and use their Smart Coach for a training plan. You may need to register on the site to use the tool
http://www.runnersworld.com/

Galloway is a controversial figure in the running world but I used a modified version of his marathon run/walk technique to train for a marathon I ran a few years ago. Worked great for me.

A key component is to take walk breaks from the very beginning - not run until you get tired and then start taking them.

Feral Bill
01-16-2010, 21:07
If you find you can't do it, go cheer on your daughter. Meanwhile, you have a year to work up to a long brisk walk. It's less than 4 mph. Maybe race walking techniques would be appropriate.

warraghiyagey
01-16-2010, 21:10
Jogging. . . . speed walking??? . . .

waywardfool
01-16-2010, 21:27
Google "Scout's Pace". This was in the (real) old Boy Scout handbooks. Alternate walking 25 yards, then running 25 yards. Supposedly the most efficient way to cover ground quickly. There's quite a bit to read on the web about it.

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 21:33
Here is Jeff Galloway's run / walk strategy

Walk Breaks?
Most runners will record significantly faster times when they take walk .
I read the article. More than likely, the points are valid. It just doesn't work for me.
I backpack the same way. I typically don't take a break until lunch.

modiyooch
01-16-2010, 21:51
I think that a distinction needs to be made between running, and competitve running. These articles are techniques to improve competition.

fiddlehead
01-16-2010, 22:26
I have done a lot of hiking, and a lot of running.
I was running yesterday with the Hash House Harriers here in Phuket, Thailand.

I was running with another guy about halfway thru the run who commented that i walk all the uphills.
I told him: "I have two rules: Run ALL the downhills, and Walk ALL the uphills)
That's how I often hike too but always run this way.

Of course you have to know how to run downhills without hurting your knees.
It can be done.
Do you ski? moguls?
The technique is similar.

Keep your knees slightly bent and treat each step like you're stepping on ice and are ready to jump to the next step. Lean back slightly (heavy packs don't work for this too well)

Enjoy. 54 is not old. I run a marathon every year instead of buying health insurance.

take-a-knee
01-16-2010, 22:29
At your height/weight and lack of training status you don't have any business running 13 miles. That is a questionable activity even for those fit enough to do it, and you obviously are not. When you get to where you can run ONE mile in at least 7:00 or faster, you can drop that pace by 25% and likely not have too many problems. The young SF medic who joined my unit after I retired was training for a marathon. A young, fit, Green Beret just off of active duty in his late twenties. They found him dead on the side of the road on a training run.

JAK
01-16-2010, 23:13
What is your height at weight Steve?
Also your waistline measurement, if you don't mind me asking?


Height:5-9"
Weight: 190#
Waist: 36"
Age: 54

Big Problem: HBP and 5 medications to control it.

My MD thinks this is a great idea.

I think its a great idea also.

OK. This is just a rough estimate...
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/bmi/

BMI: 28.1
Body Fat: 18.1%
Basal Metabolic Rate: 1756 kcal/day

Your BMI is high for a runner, but your %Fat isn't all that high. You have more mucle and bone than you need for running, but hold on to that. You could lose 6-8% body weight in fat, or about 3-4 pounds. Well, you probably do that in a good week or two of hiking.

You should keep hiking for sure, but also follow a training program like the one suggested by the run/walk guy, Jeff Galloway. I would say it is tailor made for you. If you are doing any weight training, and enjoy it, then keep doing it, but maybe change it a little to focus more on weight training for runners and endurance athletes. If you lose some muscle mass in the process, but are maintaining reasonable strength and gaining considerable endurance, then you are probably on the right track, especially if it improves your blood pressure.

I think you should get a heart rate monitor. With that you can get more out of your hiking and running and learn alot about your body. You figure out what your maximum heart rate is, but be very careful testing for that. Also your resting heart rate, which might get lower. The important thing is you will be able to figure out your training zones, which are based on a percentage of the difference from your resting heart rate to your maximum heart rate.

Lets just say your MaxHR = 160 and your RestingHR = 60.

80% = 140bpm, with training you might maintain this for 1 hour.
75% = 135bpm, with training you might maintain this for 2 hours.
70% = 130bpm, 3 hours, but now it depends more on muscle endurance.
65% = 125bpm, 4 hours, perhaps more.

The other variable is your speed at those heart rates, which may improve some over time if you lose some weight; gain some VO2Max; gain some efficiency in burning glycogen, fat, and lactate; and gain some running and walking efficiency.

Anyway, get a heart rate monitor and have fun with it.

STEVEM
01-17-2010, 00:08
At your height/weight and lack of training status you don't have any business running 13 miles. That is a questionable activity even for those fit enough to do it, and you obviously are not. When you get to where you can run ONE mile in at least 7:00 or faster, you can drop that pace by 25% and likely not have too many problems. The young SF medic who joined my unit after I retired was training for a marathon. A young, fit, Green Beret just off of active duty in his late twenties. They found him dead on the side of the road on a training run.

I too have seen many young people die, some quite tragically and some quite unexpectedly. Understand however that I am not planning to run this race in a competitive manner. I don't care if a 90 year old woman using a walker passes me. I'm looking for a training program that I can use to increase my average speed from about 20min/mile to 16min/mile or maybe a little less. I suspect that I'll need to combine jogging and walking to accomplish this.

On the positive side, I can walk 13 miles right now with no stress or pain and wake up tomorrow as if I'd done nothing. I don't personally know anyone my age who can do that, although I'm sure it's common among WB members. I also have a year to train for this event.

On the negative side, my dad died at 56 and my mom at 57. I do not share the risk factor that lead to their early deaths. Perhaps this alone is reason enough for me to give this thing a try.

Maddog
01-17-2010, 00:35
this isnt that complicated! get out and start running...youll be more than ready in a year! :)

jrwiesz
01-17-2010, 01:44
If you do a 20 min. mile walking, in 3.5 hrs you've got 10 miles just walking. A year of training, you can easily get 6 min. per mile shaved of your times to give your those extra 3 miles. You'll, maybe, be jogging-not even running. Do the speed-walking thing and you'll accomplish your 13 mile goal with plenty to spare. Go for it!

If you stay dedicated for the entire year, a secondary benifit, may even be, that you eliminate your hypertension altogether. Who knows, maybe, even before the event.

Wouldn't, "no more medications", sound good?

Good Luck, keep us posted. You fast hiker you!!:sun

JAK
01-17-2010, 08:38
Don't get too hung up on the difference between running and walking.
They are different, but just focus on covering distance efficiently.
Your body will tell you when to run and when to walk.

If you are walking now, find out how fast and at what average heart rate. Then over a fixed distance, of say 2 miles, walk it at diffferent speeds and make up a table as follows. Then keep a training log and keep adding data, and see how things improve.

Time, Speed, Average Heart Rate
0 mph, 60bpm (or whatever your resting heart rate is)
3.0 mph, 90bpm or whatever
3.5 mph, 105bpm
4.0 mph, 120bpm
4.5 mph, 135bpm
5.0 mph, 150bpm

Those won't be the numbers, but you get the idea.

JAK
01-17-2010, 09:02
You should get a senseof how your heart rate responds to exercise. If you know your resting heart rate and maximum heart rate, then you should also be able to estimate how long you can maintain each speed. Initially, don't push it harder than 35-70%. i.e. Resting Heart Rate plus 35-70% of your Heart Rate Reserve, which is the difference between your maximum heart rate and your resting heart rate.

How to find your maximum heart rate safely?
There are various test protocols out there, but they may not be safe for you.
There are also some estimates based on age, but they can be off by +-10.
So look into that.

Initially you might only be able to maintain 70% for 10-15 minutes. That is normal.
Within a few months you should be able to maintain 70% for 2-3 hours.
Don't worry about whether 70% is walking or walk/running or running. It's all good.

Maddog
01-17-2010, 09:05
we're not building a nuke...its just running!

JAK
01-17-2010, 09:44
we're not building a nuke...its just running!Sometimes the math helps. Sometimes it doesn't.

There are alot of misconceptions about running.
It is just running, but running with an extra 50 pounds is different.
Many runners think they are in better shape, when they are just lighter.

Also, a 4 hour race is a different thing than a 2 hour race.
You can't be expected to maintain the same heart rate for 4 hours as 2 hours.

Biggest improvements come with weight loss and the so called anaerobic threshold. That for the most part is all that is stopping most people, and it only takes a couple of months to see a huge difference. Just don't run harder than 80%. There is no need to at first. Initially 35-70% is all that is required.

Your basically adding mitochondria and blood vessels. Everyone can do it. It is actually much more complicated than building a nuke, but we can do it without thinking about it if we want to. So yeah, just do it. Just don't kill yourself. It's counterproductive.

modiyooch
01-17-2010, 10:56
I don't know the logistics of the disney half marathon, but the reason I suggested running the first 6 and then walking was to get beyond the sag point. He wants to walk it, but feels he is too slow. He's not wanting to win, he just needs to shave 4 min per mile.