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prain4u
01-19-2010, 02:04
I'm posting this on straight-forward because I really want this thread to stay focused on the question--and not drift off into all of the side issues.

My biggest fear is aggressive dogs. (I have been bitten by dogs a few times in my life). I usually hike in very remote areas or other places where dogs are not encountered very frequently. Obviously, that is not the case with the AT.

What suggestions can you people share that might help me to better deal with potentially aggressive dogs while I am on the AT?

(For what it is worth, I have owned dogs most of my life. I currently own a 105 lb. Chocolate Lab who will NOT be joining me on my hikes. So, please don't accuse me of being "anti-dog". I simply have fears of being bitten or attacked by a potentially aggressive dog).

leaftye
01-19-2010, 02:24
Pepper spray. If the owner yells at you because they failed to control their dog, spray the owner too.

Jester2000
01-19-2010, 03:00
This is one of the things my Leki poles are for.

tintin
01-19-2010, 04:14
I carry a few small stones in my pocket. I've ad some pretty scary experiences with aggressive dogs too and although I have poles, I would rather keep them further away than that.

Desert Reprobate
01-19-2010, 04:33
I always carry a few Snausages in my pocket. No need to be afraid of a dog. Make him your friend. Wrap a couple of gummi bears in the snausages if the dog is not friendly.

Mud__Bone
01-19-2010, 05:05
lol gummie bears, nice try , how's about a spoon of peanut butter lol.

seriously though I think the spray is a good one, trekking poles is a very good way to go for sure, I have fended off dogs wtih them, remember stab don't swing lol

swing and yell till within striking distance , THEN stab :P

and as suggested above give the same to owner if they growl at ya too lol

Sugarfoot
01-19-2010, 07:18
First, what you are fearing, bad dogs, are terribly unusual on the AT. I've hiked about 4,000 miles on the AT and the only bad dog experience I've had was one morning when I awakened by a large German shepherd slobbering over my face. Worst doggie breath I've ever encountered. On the Benton MacKaye Trail, however, on one of the road walks on a country lane, I had a German shepherd and pit bull come out from under the porch of a farm house, barring teeth and barking. I moved to the far side of the lane and, don't ask me why, whistled as loudly as I could. That was enough for the shepherd and he went back under the porch, but the pit bull kept coming. I kept facing him and wouldn't let him get behind me, and my sticks were at the ready. I'm not sure how effective they would have been. Meanwhile, I kept slowly backing up the lane, hoping I would reach the edge of his perceived territory. I was scared. I decided to try baby talk, you know how you talk to puppies, "Good puppy, you are so brave, defending your property, good doggie ..." in a singsong voice. He immediately stopped his attack, cocked his head and seemed to be debating whether to roll over for a belly rub or to eat me. His hesitation didn't last long and he lunged at me again. When I did the "good doggie" routine again, he again showed hesitation. Meanwhile I was edging up the lane and eventually hit the magic spot and he went home. I guess every dog, even a "bad" dog, has happy puppy memories. It's worth a try at any rate.

Another thought. You own a large dog so are comfortable around large dogs, so you would never approach a strange dog but rather would invite the dog to approach and to sniff you. I've seen hikers violate that to their detriment.

I personally do not and would not carry pepper spray. I figure it is the weight of several Little Debbie Oatmeal Cakes, which I would rather have. Just me.

stumpknocker
01-19-2010, 08:43
I used my Lekis on the AT twice for pitbulls and they worked good, but after doing some long distance bicycle riding and dealing with aggressive dogs, I started carrying pepper spray. It stops the worst dogs cold in their tracks. I only have to use the spray on a cross country bicycle ride an average of about three times, but when I do, it's when it's needed. I don't spray a dog for just chasing me. It's easy to tell when there's real danger.

I would have been in trouble in MA on the AT if I would have been alone when two pitbulls attacked while I was still walking at dusk, but luckily I was walking with John Galt and he kept one away with his poles while I kept another away.

The other time on the AT was in GA and I was able to keep that pitbull away with my poles.

Sometimes, even a dog that's used to walking the Trail with it's owner can be aggressive when you walk into camp or in some way surprise it.

Even though I like dogs and had dogs most of my life, I make it a point to not pay attention to a Trail dog and not to give a Trail dog any food.

cascader
01-19-2010, 08:44
I've hiked a little over half the AT now and have not had any trouble with dogs on the Trail except when getting near and going through towns. You can get very aggressive dogs "protecting" their territory, which can included parts of the AT that go near their yards etc. This has happened several times.

If I'm not already carrying a Leki staff (which I usually do only in wintry conditions) then I'm sure to grab a good sized hiking "stick" in the woods before I hit town. I've never yet encountered a dog that didn't back off when shown a stick in a threatening manner. I've never had to come close to actually having to strike the dog--it's just a 'dominance show' thing.

If the dog is accompanied, the dog's *owner* may however attack you in response to the stick--that happened to me on a city trail once when I was charged by some guy's uncontrolled dog and warded it off by waving a very slender stick that couldn't have hurt a squirrel.

If you hike with Leki poles or a hiking stick or staff, you're covered--

Seeker
01-19-2010, 08:45
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxXNi6RA54Q/SFpv6wSAAmI/AAAAAAAAACk/wKbAK58ONK8/s1600/spike%2Bferrule.jpg

shouting, waving, a crack alongside the head, then, finally, a jab with this, in that order...

peakbagger
01-19-2010, 09:09
On many of my weekend hikes, and section hikes, its quite noticable how well just having hiking poles work to keep the small minority of agressive dogs I encounter at bay. I rarely if ever have to wave them, but most dogs will back off just by the sight of them. Even if I am not using the poles, like on a road walk or a ridgewalk, I carry both poles in one hand, sometimes collapsed, mostly to keep them handy, but also as a dog deterrent.

I do agree that I have far more encounters with agressive dogs along rural roads than on the trail.

sasquatch2014
01-19-2010, 09:44
I have only had bad dog experiences while on road walks or in town. When i have hiked with my dog I am concerned about dog to dog interaction as some dogs can be people friendly but dog aggressive. Hank, for as big as he is, is also very submissive and will just roll over so if one really got after him he would get the bad end of it that is for sure. I had to grab him one time and pick him up until the other owner was able to get control of their dog as well.

Most of the time when faced by myself with an aggressive dog I use the trekking poles to keep them at bay while backing away and shouting often that will either turn the dog or get the owner to call them off. I had one owner when he came out and saw me with my poles yell at me as his dog headed back tot he house. He told me if i hit his dog with those he would hit me. I told him that if his dog bit me I would be shoving the pole up his ass while beating his dog. He glared at me and realized I was just possibly unstable enough to do it.

I am not sure if this truly would work or not but it might. I hear that if the dog is truly aggressive you can throw a Minnesotasmith at them and that will distract them until you can get safely away. I don't think it would be worth the extra weight.:eek:

Phreak
01-19-2010, 09:57
Stand your ground and project a strong energy. If you act afraid, aggressive dogs will sense it and act upon it.

Pedaling Fool
01-19-2010, 10:00
As a life-long cyclists I know dogs; I can't count how many times I've had a dog charge me, I've even had a pack of dogs come at me. Now when I run on the beach or neighborhood dogs come at me.

In the beginning my first instinct, like most was to speed up on my bike, but that just causes them to run faster and are much more prone to bite. Of all the times I've been bitten was when I was retreating.

Iíve found that if I just stop and stand my ground and eventually walk toward them and assert control they almost always back off. However, always be ready for that 1-in-a-1,000 that will attack.

.
What suggestions can you people share that might help me to better deal with potentially aggressive dogs while I am on the AT?

Use whatever weapon you like, but remember sometimes we get caught off-guard. Just remember you are much better equipped to fight then they are; all they got are teeth (too many people focus way too much attention on their teeth). You got hands, feet, maybe a weapon, and a brain -- stay calm and a brain is your best defense. In short, if you get caught off-guard poke his eyes out.

garlic08
01-19-2010, 10:17
Stand your ground and project a strong energy. If you act afraid, aggressive dogs will sense it and act upon it.

From what I've learned about dogs since owning one for the last several years, this is very true. Dogs communicate by body language almost exclusively, and you really need to pay attention to it around them. They pick up on the slightest, almost unconscious gestures and movements (especially around dinner time).

I've encountered only one aggressive dog, on a rural road in Idaho, in all my hiking, and not one on the AT. I was carrying pepper spray that time (grizzly country, too) and pulled it out and acted aggressively. The animal backed down immediately.

I don't think there's a need to carry pepper spray for dogs (or bears) on the AT. Cycle touring, especially in the Appalachians, definitely. I got chased by over 20 dogs on one day cycling in the hills of KY once. A squirt from the water bottle took care of them, though. If you have a way of carrying a squirt bottle accessible while hiking, that might work.

We all have our phobias, rational or not, and have to deal with them. Good luck dealing with this one.

veteran
01-19-2010, 10:34
http://wirelessdigest.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/melgibsonshotgun.jpg

nuff said :D

white_russian
01-19-2010, 10:37
Stand your ground and project a strong energy. If you act afraid, aggressive dogs will sense it and act upon it.
That is what I do. If a human can scare off an attacking black bear by standing tall and acting scary then there should be no question that it would work for a single dog without a pack. Just look at Caesar Milan, he has met plenty of aggressive dogs and all he has to do is look at them to get them to behave.

That said I have never had any problem with a dog when hiking, just around the neighborhood.

JAK
01-19-2010, 10:44
When I hike with my daughter I carry a big stick.
She likes to carry one to. She started me on it actually.
Seems like the natural thing to do.

As tall as I am, maple, weighs about 2 pounds.
Sends a message. Dogs get it. Bears too maybe.
People? Never know with people, but I think it helps.

take-a-knee
01-19-2010, 10:45
Hollow points at 900 fps +, works every time.

Jim Adams
01-19-2010, 10:46
http://wirelessdigest.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/melgibsonshotgun.jpg


nuff said :D

Good answer!
Any dog that is not under direct control by it's owner can be aggressive. I take what ever action deemed necessary to remain safe.

geek

geek

Pedaling Fool
01-19-2010, 10:52
This article supports the assertion of asserting control using body language. http://www.livescience.com/animals/090903-wolf-smart.html

Many will take away from the article that humans have made the dog dumb. But that is because humans are too hung-up on the issue of "intelligence", which we really don't understand, just a lot of misconceptions and predjudices. What is really interesting is the light this shines on Evolution.

From the article, more in the above link:

Wolves do better on some tests of logic than dogs, a new study found, revealing differences between the animals that scientists suspect result from dogs' domestication.
In experiments, dogs followed human (http://www.livescience.com/animals/090808-smart-dogs.html) cues to perform certain tasks despite evidence they could see suggesting a different strategy would be smarter, while wolves made the more logical choice based on their observations.
In fact, dogs' responses were similar to human infants, who also prioritize following the example of adult humans.
During the tests, a researcher would repeatedly place an object in Box A and allow the subjects to find it. When the experimenter then switched and put the object in Box B, human babies (http://www.livescience.com/topic/babies) and dogs were confused and continued to search for it in the first box. Wolves, however, easily followed the evidence of their eyes and located the object in Box B.
The finding could help scientists learn more about the evolution of social behavior (http://www.livescience.com/culture/090417-gentle-emotions.html), not just in dogs (http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=dogs_ext_quest) but in humans as well.

DapperD
01-19-2010, 10:59
Pepper spray. If the owner yells at you because they failed to control their dog, spray the owner too. Pepper spray may work, but if you care it can injure the dogs eyes, as they do not release tears as we do, or something like that. Another product, called "Muzzle" is designed just for and is safe against dogs. I carry it with me whenever I walk or hike, as I have had owner's of dogs on leashes allow their pit bulls, etc...to approach me and "corner" me with complete disregard. This has to be one of the most unnerving things. Be advised however that wether you use this product, or pepper spray, "trained" attack dogs such as police K-9's, etc... can and will shrug off a spray defence and continue to attack.

Blissful
01-19-2010, 11:22
The only relatively aggressive dog I saw that was a nuisance was on a major river crossing in Maine (of all things) and I yelled at the owner to control the dog. Other than that I did not have any problems. I don't feel this is a major issue on the trail, personally, compared to other things out there.

Spokes
01-19-2010, 11:28
What would Cesar Milan do?

Jester2000
01-19-2010, 11:47
We all have our phobias, rational or not, and have to deal with them. . .

Phobias are by definition irrational.


That is what I do. If a human can scare off an attacking black bear by standing tall and acting scary then there should be no question that it would work for a single dog without a pack . . .That said I have never had any problem with a dog when hiking, just around the neighborhood.

Well, I've been bitten by a dog, and I wasn't acting afraid. But then again, I also wasn't acting scary, because the dog was running towards me but not displaying any other signs of aggression. I thought it was just running up to me. About three seconds away from me it snarled and as it passed by it bit me on the leg. It then circled around for another pass. I yelled at it at that point, but didn't have my poles with me. It eventually backed off, but I'd already been bitten.

If I had had my poles with me, I wouldn't have been bitten at all.

white_russian
01-19-2010, 11:58
Phobias are by definition irrational.



Well, I've been bitten by a dog, and I wasn't acting afraid. But then again, I also wasn't acting scary, because the dog was running towards me but not displaying any other signs of aggression. I thought it was just running up to me. About three seconds away from me it snarled and as it passed by it bit me on the leg. It then circled around for another pass. I yelled at it at that point, but didn't have my poles with me. It eventually backed off, but I'd already been bitten.

If I had had my poles with me, I wouldn't have been bitten at all.
So a strange dog running toward you doesn't raise an eyebrow? It may not be a full fledged "hey I am going to bite you" sign, but you should realize that there is something going on and the possibility for an attack. Then three seconds is plenty of time to show your dominance if you have realized the possible situation and diverted your attention to it.

Pacific Tortuga
01-19-2010, 12:07
Stand your ground and project a strong energy. If you act afraid, aggressive dogs will sense it and act upon it.


Near Watunga Lake, my first day of a shakedown hike to Damascus, a hound dog decided I was it's enemy. I did what Phreak said to do. Seem to work, it went away. I turned to hike on and it would jump out of the bushes and charge me, barking constantly, this happened, what seemed like forever. Finally the owner came down and retrived him. A long day made longer by needing to be defensive, the owner said, he never does that, my luck but saw in the shelter register that it happens all the time.
All the other dogs I saw on the Trail were great, got the nasty one out of the way on my first day.

JAK
01-19-2010, 12:17
So a strange dog running toward you doesn't raise an eyebrow? It may not be a full fledged "hey I am going to bite you" sign, but you should realize that there is something going on and the possibility for an attack. Then three seconds is plenty of time to show your dominance if you have realized the possible situation and diverted your attention to it.It's easier if you carry a big stick. What if the dog is running towards a child. Again, you must react, and sooner, but again it is easier if you are carrying a big stick. Hiking poles also work, but I think a bigger longer stick is better. Hiking alone I don't carry a big stick, but on skis I would have my poles. They are useful. When hiking with my daughter I carry a big stick. Reaction time is important also, but I think I might even react faster, and not just more effectively, if I am carrying a big stick.

Hooch
01-19-2010, 12:24
Personally, I've only had one issue with an aggressive dog on the trail. He was sent away whimpering after a friendly little jab on his head with the carbide tip of my hiking pole. Never saw the dog again. :D

Lemni Skate
01-19-2010, 12:26
I've had a few run-ins with dogs in Shenandoah National Park. Once a pack of three made me turn around and abort a hike. Only once have I dealt with an agressive dog that was with a person. That dog tried to bite my son. I have dealt with many more overly friendly dogs, however.

ShelterLeopard
01-19-2010, 12:30
Pepper spray. If the owner yells at you because they failed to control their dog, spray the owner too.

Nah- why bother with pepper spray? I agree with Jester.


This is one of the things my Leki poles are for.

Yep. If you don't want to hurt the dog, then keep the pole right in front of his nose and kinda walk in circles- they'll usually stay at the tip of your pole. If it doesn't work and he's really aggresive, WHAM!


First, what you are fearing, bad dogs, are terribly unusual on the AT.

True- much more often are badly behaved dogs, who may come up to you, beg for food, walk on your sleeping bag or jump up to greet you, but will not try to harm you. There have been some wild dogs though, or dogs who've gotten loose from nearby farms.

sasquatch2014
01-19-2010, 12:47
It's easier if you carry a big stick. What if the dog is running towards a child. Again, you must react, and sooner, but again it is easier if you are carrying a big stick. Hiking poles also work, but I think a bigger longer stick is better. Hiking alone I don't carry a big stick, but on skis I would have my poles. They are useful. When hiking with my daughter I carry a big stick. Reaction time is important also, but I think I might even react faster, and not just more effectively, if I am carrying a big stick.

I'm sorry I may be confused are you saying to throw small defenseless children at the attacking dogs?

If you see a dog in a tent that is a little way off the trail but it doesn't have foot prints around the tent in the snow should you allow it to sleep in the shelter?:-?

Jester2000
01-19-2010, 13:21
So a strange dog running toward you doesn't raise an eyebrow? It may not be a full fledged "hey I am going to bite you" sign, but you should realize that there is something going on and the possibility for an attack. Then three seconds is plenty of time to show your dominance if you have realized the possible situation and diverted your attention to it.

Well, I often make the mistake of assuming that dogs are friendly, because I like dogs. That's my mistake. My other mistake was not having my poles with me. If I had poles, I wouldn't have had to worry about whether the dog would recognize my show of dominance in time to not take a chunk out of me.

Tinker
01-19-2010, 13:24
This article supports the assertion of asserting control using body language. http://www.livescience.com/animals/090903-wolf-smart.html

Many will take away from the article that humans have made the dog dumb. But that is because humans are too hung-up on the issue of "intelligence", which we really don't understand, just a lot of misconceptions and predjudices. What is really interesting is the light this shines on Evolution.

From the article, more in the above link:

Wolves do better on some tests of logic than dogs, a new study found, revealing differences between the animals that scientists suspect result from dogs' domestication.
In experiments, dogs followed human (http://www.livescience.com/animals/090808-smart-dogs.html) cues to perform certain tasks despite evidence they could see suggesting a different strategy would be smarter, while wolves made the more logical choice based on their observations.
In fact, dogs' responses were similar to human infants, who also prioritize following the example of adult humans.
During the tests, a researcher would repeatedly place an object in Box A and allow the subjects to find it. When the experimenter then switched and put the object in Box B, human babies (http://www.livescience.com/topic/babies) and dogs were confused and continued to search for it in the first box. Wolves, however, easily followed the evidence of their eyes and located the object in Box B.
The finding could help scientists learn more about the evolution of social behavior (http://www.livescience.com/culture/090417-gentle-emotions.html), not just in dogs (http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=dogs_ext_quest) but in humans as well.

So THAT explains, possibly, how some humans are more intelligent (or adaptable, at least) to changes. Those of us who lead rigid lives, day after day, doing the same things in the same way are less likely to be able to "think our way out of a paper bag".
Completely logical: We've lost the will, ability, or need to adapt, or think outside the box.
Are we still on topic here?

OK, DOGS - I've found that using sharp commands that are common to most owners will, temporarily, at least confuse the dog, giving you time to think of a way out of the situation, and, sometimes even more effectively, speak kindly to the dog, which sometimes completely befuddles them "Hi, buddy" and "Good dog!" sometimes makes them wonder who they are being agressive toward and why.
As a last resort, I will raise one hiking pole and point it at the dog. If it advances, I will raise both and wave them. That has never failed ..............yet.

sherrill
01-19-2010, 14:06
I've been charged by a few dogs while running or hiking. If the dog charges me, I charge him/her, while screaming "Back off, bitch!". Hasn't failed me yet.

Although I'm more comfortable when I have a hiking pole or staff with me, even barehanded they have always backed away.

kanga
01-19-2010, 14:15
the only dog i've ever been charged by had rabies and i was 5. i'm alpha and they know it before they even start.

srestrepo
01-19-2010, 14:24
screw that... nothing a fat kit (me) with 135 centimeters of aluminum with a carbide tip can't fix...

SassyWindsor
01-19-2010, 14:44
Some of the post on this thread sound a lot like those who have the unleashed dogs on the trail. Lots of excuses for a dog charging another hiker. The best one
is " he's never done that before". Regardless what you think about YOUR dog, some people, especially kids, are terrified of ANY unrestrained dog. I carry pepper spray. I almost used it several times. I once had a large dog who had blocked the trail and was growling and showing teeth, owner eventually showed up and cursed me for even thinking about spraying his dog. I've also been threatened if I spray their dog my body would never be found! Real nice people. Whatever defense you put up against another hikers dog, expect retaliation and possibly bodily harm from the owner(s). Prepare to defend yourself against dog and owner. If I needed a reason to NOT hike, unleashed dogs would rank right up there with serial killers.

Pedaling Fool
01-19-2010, 15:13
So THAT explains, possibly, how some humans are more intelligent (or adaptable, at least) to changes. Those of us who lead rigid lives, day after day, doing the same things in the same way are less likely to be able to "think our way out of a paper bag".
Completely logical: We've lost the will, ability, or need to adapt, or think outside the box.
Are we still on topic here?

...
.
Clairification for some that need help.

It seems to support the assertion of many that "standing your ground" and other types human body language goes a long way in controlling an aggressive dog.


BTW, for a better example of this fact watch the Dog Whisperer on the National Geo Channel. Most dogs are aggressive because people think LOVE is the most importand thing in raising a dog, when in fact it's discipline.

Slosteppin
01-19-2010, 21:18
IMO, the best answer to an aggressive dog it to be more aggressive. Humans are the dominant species because, as a whole we are the most successful predators.

I meet a lot of dogs, mostly with people, on local state forest hiking trails. Most dogs are friendly, some are scared and act mean and a few are aggressive. I always talk softly and hold out my left hand for a dog to smell, if they act scared. At the same time my right fist is ready to strike. Hitting a dog on or near their ear will stop them.

When I meet an aggressive dog then I am the meanest most dangerous animal in the forest! I yell and move toward the animal, I command loudly to GET BACK. I am willing and ready to do harm. It is always my feeling that if attacked by a mean dog I will get hurt and probably the dog will get dead.

It is over 60 years since I've been bitten by a dog. When I was young we raised hunting dogs and some could be very mean.

Slosteppin

Connie
01-19-2010, 22:11
My shoes, or my hikers, have a reasonably stiff sole. If your shoes, or hikers, also have a reasonably stiff sole, this will work fine: Do not have the dog go around behind you. For a dog, that is a "killing move" whether effective or not, it is what it is.

Instead, you are turning facing the dog, reasonably light on you feet, un-weighting the foot ready to make your "dog killing move". The dog will see you doing this. This "move" is, you are ready to jamb the sole of you shoe, or boot, into the dog's mouth, make a twisting motion, and break the dog's jaw.

For a dog, this is a "dog killing move".

I have never had to proceed further than keeping at-the-ready to make the move.

Every bad dog, every aggressive dog, looked at me like "no-way" they would take me on, and, glancing over their shoulder, left the vicinity.

This self defense works with one bag dog, or, one aggressive dog and one aggressive dog owner.

When the dog quits, the aggressive dog owner may mumble, as they leave the vicinity as well.

I found out about this self defense, against a bad dog, when I had a cane and a long leg orthotic leg brace living in the city.

There are vicious people, perhaps more than vicious dogs. If they have a dog, this is the self defense. If their dog wants no-fight, in general, neither does the dog owner.

The friendship gesture for a dog, is hand extended fingers together turned down palm facing the ground.

The friendly dog greeting is a fingers together flat hand pat behind the head (not reaching up and over the eyes - and indirect eye contact, glancing away and back) followed by a flat hand fingers together lightweight pat on the back region of the spine. This reflects a friendly "dog greeting" and the friendly dog appreciates the friendly human.

If the dog "wiggles" a friendly gesture, after that, then proceed to trade off front and back with patting and even lightweight petting, unless the dog "wiggles" all over you, then you can pet the dog for sure.

BobTheBuilder
01-19-2010, 22:25
It's just a dog. Grow a set and get over it.

srestrepo
01-19-2010, 22:26
For a dog, this is a "dog killing move".

holy crap connie, you're like a dog chuck norris! LOL

just kidding, body language is certainly key in this circumstance both for your personal safety and ultimately for an agreeable outcome between you and the animal.

pet owners certainly take note of your dog jaw breaking preparatory maneuvers and that certainly seems to light a fire under someone too...

sound advice.

shelterbuilder
01-19-2010, 22:41
The big, long walking stick seems to work for me. It kept a 3-dog pack at bay near Duncannon one summer, even though I had to do some fancy dancing down the trail!:D A pack is harder to discourage than a lone dog, but it can be done, especially if you can identify the alpha-dog (usually the most aggressive) and target him/her. A pack without a leader (or with a leader who's been injured) is a social unit in chaos.

Lately, though, I seem to see more loose "friendly" dogs on the trail (friendly - ie - "don't worry, he doesn't bite") that aren't under control, and, having lost the ability to speak to cancer, I now need to adopt an aggressive alpha-stance right at the start - especially if I'm hiking with one of my dogs. [I fear less for my own safety and more for my dog's, one of whom has already cost me over $6,000 in vet bills over the last 4 years - I still have medical insurance, but my dog does not.]

At staff's length, the tip (mine's not pointed, by the way) - held in front of the dog's nose - can make most dog's hesitate. At closer range, the tip can be planted in the ground and the staff used as a movable barrier. As a last resort, the aggressive dog can either be poked SOUNDLY or whacked across the snout (a fist will do if you can't get the staff into position).

Being the first to retreat from your encounter is NOT a good idea under most circumstances - it may be counter-intuitive, but advancing toward the dog without hesitating shows an alpha-dominant posture. Make yourself as big and threatening (and noisy) as you can. By forcing the dog to retreat from you, you force it into a submissive role. (It will probably continue to charge, but you've taken control of the situation - continue to force the dog into repeated retreats, while you slowly make your way down the trail. At some point, either you will pass out of the dog's territory or the owner will appear and "save" his dog from any violence that's been threatened by you.:D

Nean
01-19-2010, 22:47
There has been a rash of attack dogs on the AT. Best advice...ever: stay at home!:rolleyes:

Pacific Tortuga
01-19-2010, 22:47
.


The friendship gesture for a dog, is hand extended fingers together turned down palm facing the ground.
.


I was always taught, palm turned up so the dog can see your hand is empty.

That always made sence to me.

Pacific Tortuga
01-19-2010, 22:52
just googled it and they say, palms down, like Connie said, damn, my grandpa was wrong for the first time in his life.

shelterbuilder
01-19-2010, 22:55
I was always taught, palm turned up so the dog can see your hand is empty.

That always made sence to me.

If a dog has ever been hit by a human hand, it was almost certainly hit with the palm-side of the hand and not with the back of the hand. Showing the back of the hand shows no possible aggression toward the dog...or so they tell me.

Rain Man
01-19-2010, 23:24
If a dog has ever been hit by a human hand, it was almost certainly hit with the palm-side of the hand and not with the back of the hand.

And if a dog has even been hit by a human hand, it has probably been hit from above, not from beneath.

When you extend your hand to a friendly dog, do so with palm down and finger tips curled slightly towards your palm, and be sure to do so below the dog's face and not above its head, as if to hit it.

Rain Man

.

Snags09
01-20-2010, 00:54
The only aggressive dogs I saw on the trail were in towns!

white_russian
01-20-2010, 01:04
I was always taught, palm turned up so the dog can see your hand is empty.

That always made sence to me.
Open palms is a very human way of thinking. Dogs don't think human thoughts though.

thelowend
01-20-2010, 02:42
as long as the dog doesnt come up to you flipping it's s hit, you should be fine. get down on the dogs level and if you are fearful around dogs then i highly recommend taking some treats along that you can reach easily to make them instant friends of yours. try your best to show no fear though when approaching the dog while staying low so it isn't intimidated and doesn't try to bite or snap out of fear for his/her safety. while the owners should have control over their pups, that doesn't mean you need to go buck wild and hit the **** out of em if they are just jumping up and being playful but what you do if a dog gets a hold of your arm, pick it up and slam it against the ground to release the grip. it is how attack dog trainers avoid getting ripped to shreds when the dogs wont let go. chances are though, you won't have a problem with dogs unless you react fearfully yourself which can lead to fearful aggression on the dogs part.

Bronk
01-20-2010, 08:03
I was camped by that little wooden bridge across the creek just outside of Erwin when all of a sudden I saw a poodle coming up the trail...I figured somebody was hiking with their dog, no big deal...then I noticed all his friends coming up the trail behind him...before I knew it I had 7 stray dogs surrounding me, barking and snapping, and some of them lunging forward as I spun around looking for a way out. At first it seemed kind of comical to me because it was such an unlikely group of strays...many different breeds of both small and large dogs...most of them looked like people's pets...some had collars on. But they had formed a pack and were most definitely agressive...I picked up a stick and started swinging it to break a hole in the ring they had formed around me...eventually I was able to make it to the bridge, and once they realized they didn't have me surrounded anymore they seemed to lose interest and filed away into the woods.

Up to this point I had seen strays on the trail several times...usually it was a hunting dog that got lost...some still had those radio antennas on them. None had ever been agressive before...but these dogs that formed a pack meant business.

sasquatch2014
01-20-2010, 08:19
I react to dog because of an experience I had when I was younger. I will share this story with you now all these years later.

I was out behind a friends house when this dog came charging at me. I couldn't do anything and before I knew it i was on the ground. the dog ran past but soon there were 3 more almost exact clones of the first one and they soon were jumping all over me. I did the best that I could to protect my face with my hands but it was no use. Every time I put a hand up one of the dogs would get its snout under the wrist and work its muzzle up to my face and neck. I guess I was making a ton of noise during all of this. Soon I heard the voice of my friends mother and could tell that the dogs were being removed. Once I was able to sit up again I wanted to take them all home with me. They were the cutest puppies in the world.

DAJA
01-20-2010, 08:39
I have mixed feelings on this issue.. I'm a dog owner and do take my dog out on trips with me but only when i'm not hiking maintained trails.. The majority of my hiking is abandoned logging routes or old trade routes, where i've yet to meet another human.. In these situations I allow my dog to travel off leash.. I would never consider taking my dog on maintained trails such as the AT where there is a good likelyhood of meeting other people and dogs, and certainly not off the leash. Having the attitude that your dog is fine off the leash on busy trails such as the AT is irresponsible and putting your dog in danger.

When I continue my sections of the AT this year, be warned that I will not think twice about defending myself or my GF if I meet your dog off leash and acting aggressively.

This past year while hiking a lightly used trail we encountered a very aggresive dog while ascending a very steep section of switchbacks. My friend Pete was in the lead when he quickly froze just as a rottie met him face to face from the above switch. This dog snapped and snarled and then took a lunge toward him. The dog had the advantage of elivation and the switch back was literally 6 inchs wide with a steep wooded drop down roughly 300 feet. Pete had no room or time to reposition into a more defensive position and as the dog lunged, all he could do was lean slightly back grabbing the dogs collar as its snapping jaws passed his face, and he directed it hurtling down over the bank, tumbling and bouncing down the bank to the beach below. When we eventually met the owner, we explained that his dog was likely hurt and required attention. The person was more than angry and made aggressive moves toward us threatening us with all kinds of abuse.

None of us felt good about the situation, and it really ruined our trip overall, but the entire situation could of been avoided had the dog owner kept his dog under control and on the leash that was dangling off his pack.

We did give the owner our contact information and told him we'd help with the vet bills if the dog required attention. But we never heard from the guy.

But again, I will not hesitate to protect myself or my girlfriend if we meet a dog that acts aggressive toward us..

Jester2000
01-20-2010, 10:27
I know this is the straight forward thread, but I think this is relevant:
Many times I've heard it said by hikers on trail, "she's never done that before," or "she's not usually like that."

I've also noticed that some dogs act aggressively towards people wearing backpacks, but the same dogs will not do so when approaching hikers resting or staying at a shelter. And I've also noticed that there seem to be more reports of aggressive behavior by trail dogs in the South.

This leads me to believe that dogs get confused when they see a strange human with a backpack -- it looks inhuman to them -- a bigger, more threatening animal. I think that dogs can be trained to get used to people wearing backpacks, but this should be done before they're taken on trail -- owners should wear one around the house, and when taking the dog for a walk. The pack could be filled with bubblewrap or something else light while this is being done.

Hosaphone
01-20-2010, 11:12
I know this is the straight forward thread, but I think this is relevant:
Many times I've heard it said by hikers on trail, "she's never done that before," or "she's not usually like that."

I've also noticed that some dogs act aggressively towards people wearing backpacks, but the same dogs will not do so when approaching hikers resting or staying at a shelter. And I've also noticed that there seem to be more reports of aggressive behavior by trail dogs in the South.

This leads me to believe that dogs get confused when they see a strange human with a backpack -- it looks inhuman to them -- a bigger, more threatening animal. I think that dogs can be trained to get used to people wearing backpacks, but this should be done before they're taken on trail -- owners should wear one around the house, and when taking the dog for a walk. The pack could be filled with bubblewrap or something else light while this is being done.

I think it may also have something to do with hiking poles. I think dogs not used to seeing people with poles might think it's a weapon and become scared or defensive.

I hiked a lot without poles when I was younger and never ever encountered anything but nice dogs. Since I started using poles I notice a lot more fearful body language in the dogs I meet. I still haven't encountered an aggressive dog, but they often don't want to let me pet them.

sherrill
01-20-2010, 12:03
If I encounter a dog that attempts to attack me on a public trail, it's gonna get hurt. Period. I don't give a damn what the owner says. I'm defending myself.

I like dogs, I understand them and their behavior. I've encountered many aggressive dogs that backed down after they understood that I'm not going to take any crap from them. I've also encountered many, many more that were as sweet as they could be.

I don't mind dogs on the AT, but I strongly feel they should be leashed most of the time if not all of the time.

ShelterLeopard
01-20-2010, 12:11
But I agree with sherrill, if a dog runs at me, I'll defend myself, and it is the fault of the owner for not controlling the dog.

Heater
01-20-2010, 12:37
I carry Peanut Butter. That'll make any dog your best friend. :banana

Connie
01-20-2010, 13:52
In San Francisco, I had to learn self defense.

I was living in San Francisco at the time. Those two in the news that fled to Canada had deliberately set their vicious dog on that women, killing her, no matter what the official version. The man was a lawyer. In San Francisco, at least, a lawyer bar card is a "get out of jail free" card. That kind of thing happens in San Francisco. Because of the cane and long leg orthotic leg brace I looked "handicapped" and so I had the same problem.

I learned about "dog language" from a KQED public television tv show. There was also a show about "cat language" but no Chuck Norris in those tv programs.

I don't recall who told me that about dogs. I think I heard about it in Sausalito.

The Sausalito police had to shoot "pet" dogs running in "packs" at the edge of town. I know I was shocked. The residents of Sausalito had very expensive registered dogs. But in a "pack" the dogs had become dangerous and were being shot by the Sausalito police department.

The "body language" and making those moves indicating I knew what to do is all I ever had to do.

Connie
01-20-2010, 13:58
I actually carry the smallest tin of cat food for raccoons. When the raccoon brothers hit the established campground making the rounds, I pop the lid and toss the can in the bushes. I did this once: the raccoons feasted and moved on.

I have met people who carry dog biscuits in their car, so when they step out of their car the dog "greeter" gets a dog biscuit. They keep one or two more in their pocket.

A postman told me about that. He also had pepper spray.

If I feel I need to carry a dog biscuit, or pepper spray, I don't want to hike.

I hike in wilderness, or the nearest thing to wilderness. The actual wilderness is much more safe than near towns with many people and their dogs. I can't even think I would want to hike the AT with what I read in this forum about people and about dogs on the trail.

Connie
01-20-2010, 14:04
Hosaphone, I hiked a lot without poles when I was younger and never ever encountered anything but nice dogs. Since I started using poles I notice a lot more fearful body language in the dogs I meet. I still haven't encountered an aggressive dog, but they often don't want to let me pet them.I have the same experience. The wild animals react quite differently, as well.

I think, in the wilderness a "stick" looks like "man carrying a rifle".

atraildreamer
01-20-2010, 18:33
...to handle a mean dog:

When I was a paperboy (a lo-o-o-ng time ago) I had aggressive dogs come up to me. I would stop, stand very still and look the dog right in the eye without showing a fearful or aggressive expression. This ALWAYS caused the animal to stop dead in their tracks. They didn't know what to do:confused: since I was not displaying the expected behavior. I would hold the stare until the beast started to back off, some even started to whimper, then I would resume my route.

Occasionally, the dog then would try to sneak up behind me to try and bite me. When the animal was about 3 feet from me, I would suddenly spin around and stomp my foot while yelling at the dog. This totally freaked them out :eek: and they would take off running!

The upside of this is that every dog I did this to later became friendly:welcome and would come over to me to get a head rub or dog biscuit when they they saw me!

CrumbSnatcher
01-20-2010, 20:04
-------------------------------------------------------

Alligator
01-20-2010, 20:51
This is the straight forward forum. That's why the background is white.

The topic is how to deal with aggressive dogs.

beakerman
01-21-2010, 02:02
This is the straight forward forum. That's why the background is white.

The topic is how to deal with aggressive dogs.

right you are...and I remember the name since the supposed colour of your name means nothing to us colour blind folks...so I won't stray again....

Back to the topic at hand...

standing your ground and not showing fear is the best way to deal with almost any aggressive dog---there are exceptions to every generalization.

If standing your ground stops the dog and they want to sniff you, I was always taught never open hand but closed in a fist--they apparently do less damage if they bite your clinched fist compared to your open hand--and present the back of your hand down low near the dogs nose level and let them come to you that way you don't seem like a threat. Also if it is a snippy dog they usually don't open their mouths wide enough to get around your fist. That was the logic that was given to me many years ago.

Talking calmly to the dog also seems to help.

It has yet to fail me--never been bit by any dog and never really been afraid of any dogs either but then again I have never questioned a dog's motives--I guess I sort of understand the body language.

LTROSS
01-23-2010, 14:36
Fetal position. 60 percent of the time, it works every time.

Doctari
01-23-2010, 15:40
Stand your ground is probably a good strategy, Probably safer than what I do: I attack! I attack LOUD and aggressively! Weather on a bike, running or hiking, a dog (or dogs) comes after me I go after it/them. So far it has worked 100%.

Understand, when I want, I can get VERY loud. As mentioned above, dogs can sense fear, they can also sense whatever it is I project. Partly, I AM ready to kill, and I focus on the leader. I will chase them long after they retreat. I yell, wave my arms, growel & run (ride) right at the leader, I ignore the rest, they are not important, I am challenging the leader for domination. I look him/her IN THE EYE ("I challenge you" in dog speak) so far, they have all turned tail & ran back the way they came.

Yep, I is crazy, but it has worked for me. I strongly do not recommend this method!! Along the lines of "PLEASE: Do not try this at home! I am a professional!"

shelterbuilder
01-23-2010, 22:42
...Many times I've heard it said by hikers on trail, "she's never done that before," or "she's not usually like that."... dogs get confused when they see a strange human with a backpack -- it looks inhuman to them -- a bigger, more threatening animal....

Jester is correct - the shape of the pack, added to the regular human shape, can be extremely confusing/frightening to many dogs. (Horses are the same way - if you walk up to a horse while you're wearing your pack, it can send the animal into fits of fear.) Usually, though, the dog that's out hiking with it's owner isn't bothered too much by this - after all, the owner is probably wearing some sort of pack, too! But the "local" dog who is just out for a stroll might be another matter!:eek:

sbennett
01-23-2010, 23:08
the real authority on this issue hasn't posted in quite a while...

Nean
01-24-2010, 11:48
Be more aggressive than the aggressor . YMMV

Bags4266
01-24-2010, 14:00
Just had a dealing w/ one today. On my return for a overnighter a large dog comes up within 20 feet growling hard. The idoit owner tells me he ok and to keep walking. As I start to walk he gets closer. I finally stopped and told the owner to control his dog. He was very close to getting speared. We exchanged some verbal profanities and I explained that if his dog is aggressive to put him on a leash.

boarstone
01-24-2010, 20:09
If money is short and weight/volume doesn't matter....can of WASP spray...any garden variety...great distance shooting range

CrumbSnatcher
01-24-2010, 20:27
bear spray is not poison like wasp spray is. BAD advice in so many ways!

ShelterLeopard
01-25-2010, 14:27
Yeah- check what you're about to shoot into a dog's face! If a dog is attacking me, I'll hurt it, but not poison it.

Bags4266
01-25-2010, 19:08
Hummm, I seem to miss the difference. If a dog is going to attack me, I win he looses...hopefully. At the point the dog becomes aggressive you do what it takes to win. Whatever the means! There might not be a second chance.

Jester2000
01-25-2010, 19:13
Well, one's poisoning an animal and one's not, so that's the difference. I would hate to think I poisoned or permanently blinded an animal because it had a bad owner.

And I wouldn't want to be held responsible for buying the dog a seeing-eye cat.

think0075
01-25-2010, 19:30
my suggestion would be to treath any dog you dont know as any other wild animal you might come in contact with on the trail. keep your distance treat it with respect and you will be fine. the dog is probably more scared of you that you are of it. and if your really that scared of dogs maybe you should stay home wouldnt want you to run into a hungry bear or a frightened rattle snake out there.

Bags4266
01-25-2010, 19:44
Don't want to responsible for poisioning a dog but sticking it with a treking pole is ok? Its the irresponsible owner who put his aggressive dog in that positon.

CrumbSnatcher
01-25-2010, 21:37
that may be true but you need to be careful what position you're putting yourself into also! even if the dogs in the wrong and you hurt it, the dog owner might hurt you! probably not? but if your trying to poison the guys dog? might as well ring the bell.

JustaTouron
01-25-2010, 21:53
my suggestion would be to treath any dog you dont know as any other wild animal you might come in contact with on the trail. keep your distance treat it with respect and you will be fine.

[/ quote]

darn straight.


[quote] and if your really that scared of dogs maybe you should stay home wouldnt want you to run into a hungry bear or a frightened rattle snake out there.

Why? I have never had a problem with bears or rattlesnakes. And I have been jumped on by dogs and been bitten in the suburbs by dogs. And the dog that bit me did so only a few mins after its own who refused to call it back told me I had nothing to fear cause he is friendly.

I am not going wait until a dog get close enough to me to be able to bite to hit with a stick or spray it to get it to back off. And that is the same stance I have back home. And I don't trust owners who say there dog is just friendly. Cause no owner has ever said their dog isn't.

Fact is dogs are often less fearful of humans and more likely to attack than any other animal one might encounter.

Deerleg
02-05-2010, 16:26
Stand your ground and project a strong energy. If you act afraid, aggressive dogs will sense it and act upon it.

That works, but I'v also slumped my shoulders, avoided eye contact and acted indifferent. Most of the time they stop barking and walk away ether because I'm not a threat, or maybe they think I'm so superior their not worth my attention.

Bumpa
02-06-2010, 16:07
Last year on a section hike in Virginia, I stopped at a road crossing to rest before starting up a steep grade. While I was drinking water, along came a large German shepperd and its owner. I am a very proficient producer of sweat and the dog ran over and started to lick the salty sweat off of my legs. When I tried to move away, the dog growled and bared its teeth. I looked for help to the owner and he just shrugged and smiled. I hit the dog over the head with a hiking pole...considered doing the same to the owner but just started up the hill.

Jack Tarlin
02-06-2010, 16:12
Gotta take issue with an early poster on this thread who said that bad dogs were "terribly unusual" on the A.T.

I know of many folks who'd disagree with this conclusion. Poorly trained and poorly behaving dogs are endemic on the A.T. with most of the problems being caused by lazy, inattentive, or entirely indifferent owners, i.e. I blame the owner more than the dog.

That being said, Jester and otherwise who commented on the usefulness of Leki Poles, is absolutely right. A person being attacked or threatened by a dog (on the A.T. or anywhere else that's public property) has a right to defend themselves in any way they see fit, and if the owner objects to this, well that's too damned bad. As far as I'm concerned, if their dog is threatening or attacking people, they can get a leash, get a lawyer, or make a deposit at a pet cemetery. One's right to enjoy the company of one's pet in the woods ends when that pet decides it wants to chew on my leg.

Appalachian Tater
02-06-2010, 16:52
Jack's right, plenty of bad dog owners on the trail, mostly not the long-distance hikers though. They think nothing of their unleashed dog barking and snarling at other hikers and do nothing to stop it. Even encountered a couple of hikers who left their aggressive dog tied on a long leash right on the trail to guard their packs while they took a blue blaze to a lake and when got complaints about people not being able to get through on the trail said "He's just doing his job."

Then there were the three unleashed dogs that became a snarling pack unresponsive to the owners' commands on a long boardwalk in Jersey where there are several signs saying all dogs must be leashed. A few minutes after I dealt with that situation, they must have unleashed them because I heard more commotion as the pack threatened some children who lived next to the boardwalk and who were playing alone--one kid screaming, another crying, the dogs barking, the dogs' owners yelling.

And even a sweet doggie isn't much fun when the owner lets him run unleashed in camp and he's tugging on your tent waking you up before the sun comes up.

You hate hurt a dog because of a dumb owner but my poles have sharp carbon tips and I'm ready to use them on either the dog or the owner or both as is necessary.

JonnyWalker
02-06-2010, 23:05
I find that being 6'3" 300lbs and extra hairy keeps most dogs(and bears for that matter) more scared of me than I am of them.

lunchbx
02-06-2010, 23:23
telling a dog ur not interested in fighting is easy dont face him/her straight on turn to the side, no eye contact. try yawning and squinting your eyes. these are all sings dogs use with eachother to show they are not trying to fight the aggressor. not being afraid is also a good tactic but rather hard to control if ur not used to being around dogs who think theyre the boss. showing doiminance and rushing the dog, or yelling, and standing tall are things that tell the dog that u think you are better than it and therfore want to fight. this is what you dont want to do.

RiverWarriorPJ
02-07-2010, 00:01
....wooooos......u also go on line and ask how to deal with muggers and pervs..??..get a set of &^%$ and watch out 4 your own butttt......jerk...

Jester2000
02-07-2010, 00:31
....wooooos......u also go on line and ask how to deal with muggers and pervs..??..get a set of &^%$ and watch out 4 your own butttt......jerk...

How is a set of random symbols going to help? Do you throw them at the dog? Do you collar the dog with the large part of the ampersand and poke him with the slash from the percentage symbol?

That doesn't seem like a good plan. And I know there are states the AT passes through that consider hitting a dog with a dollar sign to be animal abuse. So everyone should keep that in mind when considering this advice.

RiverWarriorPJ
02-07-2010, 11:59
..lol......good come back Jester..........

mweinstone
02-07-2010, 12:00
offer an attacking dog your tightly closed fist and when he opens his mouth shove it into his throat as hard as you can. the dog will choke and run scared never to bite you again.

Pedaling Fool
04-24-2010, 10:25
This article supports the assertion of asserting control using body language. http://www.livescience.com/animals/090903-wolf-smart.html

Many will take away from the article that humans have made the dog dumb. But that is because humans are too hung-up on the issue of "intelligence", which we really don't understand, just a lot of misconceptions and predjudices. What is really interesting is the light this shines on Evolution.

From the article, more in the above link:

Wolves do better on some tests of logic than dogs, a new study found, revealing differences between the animals that scientists suspect result from dogs' domestication.
In experiments, dogs followed human (http://www.livescience.com/animals/090808-smart-dogs.html) cues to perform certain tasks despite evidence they could see suggesting a different strategy would be smarter, while wolves made the more logical choice based on their observations.
In fact, dogs' responses were similar to human infants, who also prioritize following the example of adult humans.
During the tests, a researcher would repeatedly place an object in Box A and allow the subjects to find it. When the experimenter then switched and put the object in Box B, human babies (http://www.livescience.com/topic/babies) and dogs were confused and continued to search for it in the first box. Wolves, however, easily followed the evidence of their eyes and located the object in Box B.
The finding could help scientists learn more about the evolution of social behavior (http://www.livescience.com/culture/090417-gentle-emotions.html), not just in dogs (http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=dogs_ext_quest) but in humans as well.
I'm sure many of you have seen this in the news, but I just wanted to say this is just more evidence, albeit non-scientific, that dogs have a special evolutionary connection (Ref. Livescience link above) with us humans http://www.wkrg.com/caught_on_camera/article/hero-dog-leads-police-to-fire/879582/Apr-23-2010_12-57-pm/

I just find it very interesting.

Wise Old Owl
04-24-2010, 10:54
I actually carry the smallest tin of cat food for raccoons. When the raccoon brothers hit the established campground making the rounds, I pop the lid and toss the can in the bushes. I did this once: the raccoons feasted and moved on.

I have met people who carry dog biscuits in their car, so when they step out of their car the dog "greeter" gets a dog biscuit. They keep one or two more in their pocket.

A postman told me about that. He also had pepper spray.

If I feel I need to carry a dog biscuit, or pepper spray, I don't want to hike.

I hike in wilderness, or the nearest thing to wilderness. The actual wilderness is much more safe than near towns with many people and their dogs. I can't even think I would want to hike the AT with what I read in this forum about people and about dogs on the trail.

Hey Connie would you offer an apple to a horse?

Wise Old Owl
04-24-2010, 11:30
offer an attacking dog your tightly closed fist and when he opens his mouth shove it into his throat as hard as you can. the dog will choke and run scared never to bite you again.

Is this necessary Matty? :eek:

Furlough
04-24-2010, 13:12
A large heavy stick, a good skining knife, a good bed of coals and lots of barbeque sauce. ;)

Nean
04-24-2010, 13:34
A large heavy stick, a good skining knife, a good bed of coals and lots of barbeque sauce. ;)


The meat is much more tender if you boil the dog first.;)