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View Full Version : Harpers Ferry Approaching Flood Stage . . .



Jester2000
01-26-2010, 15:34
As alluded to in a thread by Laurie, the Potomac River is approaching flood stage. It's currently measuring at 17.54 feet; flood stage is 18. Point of Rocks, downriver from Harpers Ferry, is already measuring at 19.06 feet, and is currently predicted to crest at 21.5 feet, although I have heard the possibility of as much as 23.5 feet.

What this means to hikers who may be in the area:

1) As noted by Laurie in the other thread:

"The Goodloe Byron Memorial Footbridge over the Potomac River will be closed by Harpers Ferry National Historical Park until further notice, due to high water. This footbridge connects the Appalachian Trail in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia with the C&O Towpath in Maryland. We expect the closure to last only a day or so.

If you will be hiking in this area, call ATC for alternate arrangements (304) 535-6331."

So the bridge across the Potomac is currently closed. The bridges that connect WV, VA, & Maryland (Rt. 340) are open, but the bridge from VA to MD is a treacherous walk, in my opinion.

2) At 16 feet, the Potomac spills the bank on the Maryland side here, and overflow goes onto the C&O Canal towpath (which the AT travels NOBO from Harpers Ferry). Because the section of trail here is downriver from HF, and therefore downriver from the confluence of the two rivers, you should expect to get your feet wet if you're on this section of trail.

The expectation is that the bridge closure will last a short time. We are expecting precip (it's snow showering right now), but this is not supposed to be rain. Hopefully.

But I've got to say it makes me nervous when I see Park Personnel standing around park building basements. Makes me wonder if they know something I don't . . .

Pedaling Fool
01-26-2010, 15:49
Would be cool if someone could post a pic.

ki0eh
01-26-2010, 15:59
River gage at Harpers Ferry (http://newweb.erh.noaa.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=lwx&gage=hfew2&view=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - note on the bottom what floods at what stage.

Odd that they don't forecast stages at HF. They do at Point of Rocks (http://newweb.erh.noaa.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=lwx&gage=porm2&view=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1&toggles=10,7,8,2,9,15,6&type=0).

Cookerhiker
01-26-2010, 16:15
I'm concerned about the C&O Canal towpath, not just around HF where it coincides with the AT but those segments throughout its length where it's close to the Potomac.

Jeff
01-26-2010, 16:47
When did the Potomac last get this high?

Is that when the C & O towpath got those detours?

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 17:00
I'll post some pictures from today when I get home from work. No photos of the towpath, though, because I can't get over there.

I think they only issues forecasts from gauges that are routine year-round ones (regardless of flood possibilities). Point of Rocks is one of these gauges. The one upriver from here is Hancock. That gauge is measuring 20.49 feet now, and they're predicting that it's crested at that point.

18.4 at Williamsport (the nearest gauge upriver from here), and now 19.89 at Point of Rocks . . .

I'll have some pics on in 2 hours or so.

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 17:04
When did the Potomac last get this high?

Is that when the C & O towpath got those detours?

This isn't that high. There won't be any major flooding here. They close the bridge any time we're expected to go above flood stage because it's an old bridge.

Last big flood here would have been in '96 -- twice that year the river went above 29 feet. When that happens the lower town is under water. No worries about that this time, I think.

Cookerhiker
01-26-2010, 17:26
When did the Potomac last get this high?

Is that when the C & O towpath got those detours?

There's only one real detour - west of Shepherdstown, east of Williamsport, around mile 90. It dates back decades; in fact, it may predate the Canal's establishment as a National Park. But I learned on my bike ride last Fall that finally, the Park is getting some $$$$ to reconstruct the towpath.

the goat
01-26-2010, 17:48
i mean, if you're a real thru hiker, you should be fording the potomac anyways.

all this bridge closure info is useless.

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 17:57
i mean, if you're a real thru hiker, you should be fording the potomac anyways.

all this bridge closure info is useless.

There has been much spirited debate on whiteblaze as to whether fording/swimming the Potomac is somehow better than taking the actual official route, or makes one "more of a thru-hiker."

Is it perceived by ATC as "dangerous," and a liability lawsuit in the making, and that's why they insist that the official route is the bridge? We do seem to have an awful ot of S&R helicopters flying through here. On the other hand, it's hard to argue that those who ford the Potomac aren't more manly and strapping than those who take the bridge.

With that I'll move on, lest this thread get moved to the humor forum, where all of my threads seem to end up . . .

JustaTouron
01-26-2010, 18:02
i mean, if you're a real thru hiker, you should be fording the potomac anyways.

all this bridge closure info is useless.


Roe vs Wade --- options give to General Washington by his staff for crossing the Potomac.

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 18:10
Roe vs Wade --- options give to General Washington by his staff for crossing the Potomac.

Hahahaha! Wait.

No no no! I'm trying to keep this out of the humor forum! What are you doing?!? You're killing me here.

And anyway, I thought that was the Delaware . . .

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 18:19
Looks like things are topping out upriver. Water level entered moderate flooding stage at Point of Rocks -- 20.21, and is supposed to crest tonight. The bridge shouldn't stay closed for too long, but the towpath will probably be a bit of a mess.

JustaTouron
01-26-2010, 18:36
And anyway, I thought that was the Delaware . . .

My mistake. You are right it was the delaware. It has been a long time since 10th grade US history.

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 19:08
My mistake. You are right it was the delaware. It has been a long time since 10th grade US history.

Haha! Yes it has been. The Potomac is the river he supposedly threw money across. That's a myth, but he was the one who chose Harpers Ferry as an Armory site. It may have had something to do with the fact that his family owned so much land hereabouts (venality and nepotism aren't exactly new to the political scene).

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 19:39
Some promised photos:

Cookerhiker
01-26-2010, 19:46
.... It may have had something to do with the fact that his family owned so much land hereabouts (venality and nepotism aren't exactly new to the political scene).

As a history butt - I mean buff, sorry - you undoubtedly know, Jester, that neighboring Charles Town is the county seat where John Brown was hung and that the "Charles" for whom the town was named was not the late erstwhile King of England but Charles Washington, GW's brother.

Blissful
01-26-2010, 19:57
Thanks for the pics. Doesn't look too bad, which is good.

Spirit Walker
01-26-2010, 20:49
We got caught by flooded towpath a couple of months ago on the C&O near McMahon's Mill. We were able to wade through the water, but it was a bit scary since we didn't know how bad the flooding would be ahead. This was just past the section of canal that has been closed completely for the past few years. We tried to walk past the closure, but it was so overgrown we turned around. No point in wading through poison ivy for no reason.

Jester2000
01-26-2010, 22:22
As a history butt - I mean buff, sorry - you undoubtedly know, Jester, that neighboring Charles Town is the county seat where John Brown was hung and that the "Charles" for whom the town was named was not the late erstwhile King of England but Charles Washington, GW's brother.

Yup. Been to the place where the hanging was. It's on private property now; there's a sign on the sidewalk nearby. All of the gov't buildings (including the jail where John Brown was housed) are on land that was donated by Charles.

veteran
01-27-2010, 09:58
i mean, if you're a real thru hiker, you should be fording the potomac anyways.

all this bridge closure info is useless.

I thought the river was fordable at Whitehorse Rapids, it looks easy there.

Jester2000
01-27-2010, 10:28
I thought the river was fordable at Whitehorse Rapids, it looks easy there.

Aside from the fact that the Goat was joking, Whitehorse Rapids is theoretically fordable, in that at low water it's at about 2 feet. But it's a Class III rapid; attempting a ford with a full pack in a place with the kind of turbulence and flow there would be hazardous at best, and most thru-hikers do not have the experience necessary to do so safely. And on a day like yesterday, we'd no doubt see the S&R helicopters out looking for you.

Not to mention that if you were thru-hiking you'd be pretty close to skipping an entire state.

veteran
01-27-2010, 12:12
It was posted as a joke.

Jester2000
01-27-2010, 12:18
It was posted as a joke.

Oh, I know. But that's because I have a sense of humor. I was recently reminded by someone on this site that there are people who don't, or at least people whose lack of knowledge prevents them from knowing the context that makes it a joke.

I didn't want a humor-impaired person drowning because he read our posts.

Pringles
01-27-2010, 12:39
Aside from the fact that the Goat was joking, Whitehorse Rapids is theoretically fordable, in that at low water it's at about 2 feet. But it's a Class III rapid; attempting a ford with a full pack in a place with the kind of turbulence and flow there would be hazardous at best, and most thru-hikers do not have the experience necessary to do so safely. And on a day like yesterday, we'd no doubt see the S&R helicopters out looking for you.


So I can claim I EABO'ed it in a kayak? :banana

Pringles, who apparently EABO'ed the Potomac in 2008 :sun

Jester2000
01-27-2010, 13:00
So I can claim I EABO'ed it in a kayak? :banana

Pringles, who apparently EABO'ed the Potomac in 2008 :sun

Yes! But I understand WEBOing is much harder . . .

Lauriep
01-27-2010, 13:20
The footbridge has re-opened; however, there was a breach of the towpath downstream, near the Sandy Hook bridge, which made the Trail impassable there early this morning. No word yet on whether there will be a closing related to that.

Laurie Potteiger
ATC

Jester2000
01-27-2010, 13:50
Yay! Thanks, Laurie. Everybody else -- the river crested here at 18.38 feet last night, and has now dropped below action stage.

veteran
01-27-2010, 14:10
Whitehorse Rapids

http://www.mkfs.com/images/inline/whitehorse.jpg

Jester2000
01-27-2010, 15:07
Great shot! Love it!

Powder River
02-01-2010, 00:33
So if the bridge closes to hikers because its old, does it close to trains too? My guess is no, as this is the commuter train. Isn't the closure due to flooding on the footpath, rather than worries about the bridge?

white_russian
02-01-2010, 01:16
So if the bridge closes to hikers because its old, does it close to trains too? My guess is no, as this is the commuter train. Isn't the closure due to flooding on the footpath, rather than worries about the bridge?
The train and the foot bridges are two different things.

Jester2000
02-01-2010, 01:36
So if the bridge closes to hikers because its old, does it close to trains too? My guess is no, as this is the commuter train. Isn't the closure due to flooding on the footpath, rather than worries about the bridge?


The train and the foot bridges are two different things.

There are two train bridges in Harpers Ferry. One is a deck plate girder bridge that was built in the early 30s. This is the bridge used by the B&O main line that goes to Martinsburg, and is also the line used by MARC (commuters) and Amtrak. This does not close due to flooding. It's a newer, stronger bridge, and does not have a walkway.

The bridge that is closed when the river is at flood stage is a steel Pratt truss and plate girder bridge that was built in 1893. It carries the B&O valley line toward Winchester, Virginia along the Shenandoah River, and does not carry passenger trains.

It is the second, older bridge that has the footpath across to Maryland.

Now as to why they close it, it is true that parts of the C&O near here reach flood stage at 16 feet, two feet lower than the town, so if the town hits flood stage, parts of the C&O are under water.

I can't say for sure that this doesn't play into their thinking about closing the bridge. But I think that ever since the last bridge here built in the 1800s (a Bollman truss bridge) was swept away in a flood, they get a little nervous about the possibility of that happening again, and I believe that's the main reason for closing it.

Jester2000
02-01-2010, 01:39
Oh, just realized. If you look at the photos I posted on this thread, you can see the two bridges in the last photo. The one on the left is the commuter train bridge. The one on the right is the one that's closed when it floods.

veteran
02-01-2010, 17:23
There are two train bridges in Harpers Ferry. One is a deck plate girder bridge that was built in the early 30s. This is the bridge used by the B&O main line that goes to Martinsburg, and is also the line used by MARC (commuters) and Amtrak. This does not close due to flooding. It's a newer, stronger bridge, and does not have a walkway.

The bridge that is closed when the river is at flood stage is a steel Pratt truss and plate girder bridge that was built in 1893. It carries the B&O valley line toward Winchester, Virginia along the Shenandoah River, and does not carry passenger trains.

It is the second, older bridge that has the footpath across to Maryland.

Now as to why they close it, it is true that parts of the C&O near here reach flood stage at 16 feet, two feet lower than the town, so if the town hits flood stage, parts of the C&O are under water.

I can't say for sure that this doesn't play into their thinking about closing the bridge. But I think that ever since the last bridge here built in the 1800s (a Bollman truss bridge) was swept away in a flood, they get a little nervous about the possibility of that happening again, and I believe that's the main reason for closing it.


Harpers Ferry: 1865

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7937&stc=1&d=1265068895

1865. "Harpers Ferry, West Virginia. View of Maryland Heights at confluence of Shenandoah and Potomac rivers." Wet plate glass negative (detail) by James Gardner. Civil War glass negative collection, Library of Congress.

Lion King
02-01-2010, 17:38
When did the Potomac last get this high?

Is that when the C & O towpath got those detours?


2006 I think, cuz in 07 when I was doing the ADT, there was a chunk of it gone cuz of flooding.

gone as in, no longer in
existence

neighbor dave
02-01-2010, 18:09
:-? i bet lone wolf could ford it! ;):welcome

Jester2000
02-01-2010, 18:10
Harpers Ferry: 1865

http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/03871u11_0.preview.jpg

1865. "Harpers Ferry, West Virginia. View of Maryland Heights at confluence of Shenandoah and Potomac rivers." Wet plate glass negative (detail) by James Gardner. Civil War glass negative collection, Library of Congress.

Can't see the photo in this post, but if there's a train bridge I imagine it's of the Bollman truss bridge built in 1851. It was partially destroyed during the Civil War. What was left was added on to in 1870, and was swept away by the flood of 1936 (36.5 feet).

veteran
02-01-2010, 19:16
Don't know what happened there, it was there when I previewed it???
I reposted it again.

Jester2000
02-01-2010, 23:21
Wow. Nice photo. That is the 1851 bridge. Nice view of the canal as well.

David@whiteblaze
02-01-2010, 23:40
Last big flood here would have been in '96 -- twice that year the river went above 29 feet. When that happens the lower town is under water. No worries about that this time, I think.
Yeah, that was documented in Bill Bryson's A Walk In The Woods, he came 2 weeks after the initial flood, and i think that was 4 weeks befor the second flood?

Jester2000
02-02-2010, 00:44
Yeah, that was documented in Bill Bryson's A Walk In The Woods, he came 2 weeks after the initial flood, and i think that was 4 weeks befor the second flood?

Considering the accuracy of the rest of the book, it's possible that he said that. The first one was in January and the second was in September.

veteran
02-02-2010, 01:16
Wow. Nice photo. That is the 1851 bridge. Nice view of the canal as well.

Link to a larger photo in high definition (http://www.shorpy.com/node/3436?size=_original)

Rick Hancock
02-03-2010, 19:10
That is a really great shot of the early days of the C&O. I enjoy hiking and biking along the route as well as the Allegheny Passage. I was in Harpers Ferry sometime in the 90's, can't remember the year, there was a terrible storm on Fri night and on sat the rivers had crested, not all that high but still very impressive. There was a helicopter rescue near the Rt 340 bridge (old A. T. route). Some guy got his kayak jammed in between some rocks, wedged tight and he couldn't get to land.

I'm all for hiking your own hike, and to some degree I don't feel that the trail is as difficult as it once was, (lighter gear, etc) but, sometime common sense has to take over. I have spent a lot of time in the Harpers Ferry area and have played in the Potomac and Shenendoah Rivers. I've seen it knee deep and placid and I've seen it at flood stage it's not a river to take lightly.

Funny story, in the old days circa 1980's I would lead hikes in the area, back then you could park almost anywhere in town. we would sleep in the back of my truck and cross on the old railroad bridge to the C&O Canal you had to be careful and not let the RailRoad Dicks (guards) catch you it was highly illegal!

Newb
02-04-2010, 09:30
This ain't over yet. 1 to 2 feet of snow expected this weekend.

evan.oliver
02-04-2010, 23:14
Is anyone else shocked and appalled that an iron (truss) bridge from the 1800s is still carrying trains? Seriously? I'd like to think that we can do a little better than that in modern America. I thought we learned our lesson with the I-35 W bridge crossing the Mississippi.

The George Washington bridge freaks me out every time. But seriously that bridge over the Potomac predates reliable steel. SCARY.

Jester2000
02-05-2010, 12:58
Is anyone else shocked and appalled that an iron (truss) bridge from the 1800s is still carrying trains? Seriously? I'd like to think that we can do a little better than that in modern America. I thought we learned our lesson with the I-35 W bridge crossing the Mississippi.

The George Washington bridge freaks me out every time. But seriously that bridge over the Potomac predates reliable steel. SCARY.

Well, I would be shocked were that the case. But the bridge that's there now is a steel Pratt truss and plate girder bridge that was built in 1893. It's not iron -- that might have been the case with the previous bridge. And while not a park property, the current bridge is a National Register of Historic Places property, so they're not going to dismantle it. It doesn't carry commuter or Amtrak trains, and the B&O Valley line isn't even used much for freight.

For the majority of train traffic (including trains with people), "modern" America has done better -- that traffic uses the newer bridge built in the 1930s.

You should be able to see both existing bridges in the photo below. The one on the right is the newer bridge that carries most of the traffic. The one on the left is the older bridge that closes when we hit flood stage. To the left of that are the pilings from the 1851 bridge.

veteran
02-05-2010, 17:16
Did you know that the original railroad bridge at Harpers Ferry was covered?


1858 bridge

http://www.mdcoveredbridges.com/harpersferry1858.jpg


1860

http://www.mdcoveredbridges.com/harpersferryabout1860.jpg


1861 Confederate demolition

http://www.mdcoveredbridges.com/harpersferry1861-06_3.jpg