View Full Version : Expecting snow saturday....help my toes?
Cooldays
01-26-2010, 23:54
So I am going to probably see some snow in the VA Mountains this weekend if I'm lucky. I Don't have any boots though. I usually backpack with running shoes which have been sooooo much more comfortable than my hiking boots in the past. I also have a pair of sierra down booties that I am not confident will take too much melting snow or wet.
Do you think a few extra pairs of wool socks will be enough? Do i break down and buy a different pair of shoes or boots? Is there a cover of some sort or liner of some sort that might do the trick at keeping me drier if needed?
I'd love some advice.
thanks in advance!
Pokey2006
01-27-2010, 00:44
I'm with ya there. My feet are so much happier in my sneakers than in leather boots.
However...in the snow, sneakers just don't cut it. Yet, it's a little late for breaking in a new pair of boots, so for this weekend, you're better off making the best of it. Yes, extra wool socks. Also try those chemical foot warmers. And definitely have those down booties ready to change into at bedtime.
The most important thing will be to keep moving. As long as you're moving, you should be fine. Once you stop to rest, your toes will start to get cold immediately. Won't matter much at that point whether they're wet or dry.
Snowleopard
01-27-2010, 00:56
Too many socks or too thick socks can make your feet colder by restricting circulation.
One possibility would be NEOS overshoes. I've got the NEOS Adventurer and so far I like them. They fit over my hiking boots and trail runners OK and they're comfortable. I've been using mine with a set of felt liners from some Sorel type boots and they're pretty nice like that for snowshoeinig.
They come in insulated models; that sounds like what you'd need. Size them to fit over your favorite shoe.
http://www.overshoesonline.com/expg/NEOS-Explorer-Overshoe.htm
Runners work fine in snow. Get some low, or mid-height gaiters to keep it out of your shoe. Liner sock with typical wool sock will probably work fine while you are hiking and for short breaks. At the end of the day, put on some dry socks for camp chores, then the down booties for bed. Your feet will do fine.
skinewmexico
01-27-2010, 01:05
Saw a neat discussion on BPL about using bread sacks over your feet. Wear it between layers of socks, lasts longer if you put a wrap of duct tape around the arch to keep from blowing out the toes. Never tried it myself.
Tipi Walter
01-27-2010, 01:06
Pokey2006 says sneakers don't cut it in the snow, Lyle says they work fine. I'll go with Pokey on this one. I heard of a guy humping the BMT over Sugar Mt a couple winters ago and he had to bail to a motel cuz his running shoes froze up and his feet turned south on him. Beyond this, you need good lug soles for snow humpage, something to really grip the snow short of crampons. Running shoes just don't have the lugs for the job.
I learned this the hard way on my last trip during early January. I was using a light pair of full boots called Asolos FSN95s and they have a crappy shallow sole pattern not quite as bad as a running shoe and I was sliding all over the place. Winter backpackers need lug soles!
Pokey2006
01-27-2010, 01:26
Pokey2006 says sneakers don't cut it in the snow, Lyle says they work fine. I'll go with Pokey on this one. I heard of a guy humping the BMT over Sugar Mt a couple winters ago and he had to bail to a motel cuz his running shoes froze up and his feet turned south on him. Beyond this, you need good lug soles for snow humpage, something to really grip the snow short of crampons. Running shoes just don't have the lugs for the job.
I learned this the hard way on my last trip during early January. I was using a light pair of full boots called Asolos FSN95s and they have a crappy shallow sole pattern not quite as bad as a running shoe and I was sliding all over the place. Winter backpackers need lug soles!
I also have learned that the hard way...but it wasn't the soles that got me so much as just the lack of insulation. Not so bad when it's just cold out, but add to that constant movement in snow, ie, frozen water, and ouch! My feet are cold just thinking about it. And my feet are safe at home, tucked away inside my own Sierra Designs down booties.
Tipi Walter
01-27-2010, 01:37
Agree. I had a near major problem on my last trip due to frozen wet boots on Day 1 and they stayed solid for the next 12 days. One morning it took me a good 30 minutes just to pry my feet into them and it was like walking in a steel trap. It even got so bad that I seriously considered going back to the Sorel pak boot solution with the felt inserts and the rubber bottoms. Great snow and cold boots, heck to walk in for any distance.
On my next trip I'm taking the beefier Asolo Fugitives and a new pair of WM down booties! Yeehaw! I'll find room in the pack for 'em.
Pokey2006
01-27-2010, 01:44
Ya, I once had boots freeze right onto my feet. Couldn't take them off until they had spent a good hour defrosting in the car on the way home.
And Cooldays, I just noticed your post on Hammock Forums. If all you're doing is hiking into the shelter from the closest possible parking area, you should be fine. Have some shoes to change into once you get there, though. Save the booties for bedtime. And make sure the rest of your gear can handle the severe cold!
Perhaps I'll see you there...
Pokey2006
01-27-2010, 01:48
Oh, and if you have the funds, go ahead and buy a pair of boots. Chances are you won't hurt your feet much only hiking a few miles in unbroken-in boots. And they might keep your toes warm a little better while hanging around in camp.
Runners are fine when you are moving.
Agree. I had a near major problem on my last trip due to frozen wet boots on Day 1 and they stayed solid for the next 12 days. One morning it took me a good 30 minutes just to pry my feet into them and it was like walking in a steel trap. It even got so bad that I seriously considered going back to the Sorel pak boot solution with the felt inserts and the rubber bottoms. Great snow and cold boots, heck to walk in for any distance.
On my next trip I'm taking the beefier Asolo Fugitives and a new pair of WM down booties! Yeehaw! I'll find room in the pack for 'em.
Wouldn't have had that problem with runners. Just sayin'.
would a pair of sealskins help at all?
Depends on the snow:
Wet snow vs really cold snow.
Deep snow vs snow you can walk on.
Depends on the runners:
Runners that absorb water vs runners that don't.
You want runners that do not absorb and hold water. Runners with padding in the tounge and around the heel, and a fabric that holds water also, these are really bad in cold weather. They will not dry. They will just keep freezing and melting. If you are stuck in snow with these you will need some sort of neoprene or gortex or nylon or plastic oversock over your wool socks. Otherwise you can change socks every 15 minutes and they will still suck up water and be wet within 2 minutes. Still, even with waterproof socks, your runners will act like heavy refrigerators on your feet. Maybe you can remove some of the padding. Maybe you can treat the fabric with some sort of wax or oil or silicone, not to make them waterproof.
There are some runners and trail runners made of very light non-waterabsorbing fabric and less padding. This is what you want. You also want them roomy enough and expandable enough for wearing either thin, medium, or heavy wool socks. Oversocks are still a good idea, as are gators. The best gators would actually be sewn onto the runners somehow, and be lightweight and breathable. They don't have to go that high. Just high enough to wrap around your ankle and keep snow out of your shoes.
As long as the shoes don't keep melting snow or ice and holding water, your wool socks should last all day. You will still need 2 pair, and you can try and dry one pair wearing them as mitts while wearing the other pair as socks. A 3rd pair tends to stay wet once all three are wet, but a 3rd pair in reserve for sleeping is not a bad idea.
Wool felt insoles are often better than the foam insoles, so you should get a pair of those. One set is enough. You can dry them with fire, as you can wool socks and wool mitts, but you need a good sized small wood fire to do it. Your alcohol stove or a candle isn't enough. You can also make insoles out of your blue foam sleeping pad in a pinch, but they compress after a day or two. Good trick in a pinch though.
Quite often in snow all you really need is thick wool socks and some sort of waterproof fabric over them, and so all your looking for in running shoes is to not absorb any sno melt, and to be able to fit your thick wool socks and felt insoles and oversocks, and some sort of gator sewn on, and some sort of aggressive grip tread that will work for ice or snow or rock. Also, not tight, but snug and stable, because snow can also be very difficult to hike in when you are walking in other peoples frozen postholes and stuff like that.
generoll
01-27-2010, 08:40
I faced the same issue on my last backpacking trip. I forgot my Sundowners and had to decide between new boots or sealskin socks. I couldn't find the sealskins so I opted for a pair of Asolos. Great boot with good support, but after three days my feet looked like hamburger. Both heels were bloody and infected. I lost three nails and right now I'm fighting an ingrown toenail on one that's coming back.
I was lucky in that Rock Creek outfitters took the boots back even though they were under no obligation to do so. The boots were way past resaleable.
So, the lesson to me was this: 1 never go out with boots that you haven't tried enough to know they fit properly.
2: I'd have been better off with the sealskins and my runners with the addition of gaiters.
The bread bag idea might also be a good idea. Never tried it, but I've heard about it for years.
In wet conditions your boots will eventually get wet. The more waterproof they are, the longer they will take to dry once they do get wet. In freezing conditions wet shoes/boots will freeze unless you take them into your sleeping bag to keep dry. A frozen moccasin will thaw quicker then a frozen mountaineering boot.
So, you've got advice all over the spectrum here. Take what's reasonable and adapt it to your own situation.
SGT Rock
01-27-2010, 08:42
I always used goretex socks when hiking in snow in my trail runners. They worked VERY well, but I never realized how well until I forgot to wear them one day in Virgina.
garlic08
01-27-2010, 10:32
Most of my snow experience is powder snow out west, and trail runners excel in that. More freedom of motion and I stay much warmer. On my AT thru, I had several days of wet snow, and while more difficult than the dry stuff, the trail runners worked fine. I used the "bagtex" trick with one plastic grocery sack cut in half for the wettest, coldest mornings. If I'd had my Sealskinz, I would have used them. I kept one pair of socks dry for sleeping. I kept the shoes from freezing overnight by sleeping with them under my pad. Not exactly a picnic, but it worked fine. In contrast, a section hiker I met was absolutely miserable in his leather boots. He went home and was hospitalized with frostbitten feet. It's more experience than gear, I think.
GeneralLee10
01-27-2010, 10:48
I was told that if you put your shoes in a bag/s at night then put them into your sleeping bag at your feet. In the morning they will not be frozen but mite be wet. Just an Idea, I am having the same thought about my shoes as the trail runners are way more comfortable. I do have some Merrel boots that I just mite start off in until it warms up. Hoping they don't tear my feet up in the first 30 miles. That mite cost some money at Neels Gap for new shoes.
If you put your feet into a plastic bag wont they sweat more being they can not get any air to them?
garlic08
01-27-2010, 11:27
I was told that if you put your shoes in a bag/s at night then put them into your sleeping bag at your feet.
You don't even have to sleep with them. You can put them under your knees outside the bag. In a bag, they will never dry out, but you're right, you'll at least be able to put them on in the morning.
If you put your feet into a plastic bag wont they sweat more being they can not get any air to them?
They might not sweat more, but the sweat will never dry. So you need to be careful with that. I've only done that very sparingly, only a couple of hours at a time, like in the coldest hours of the morning. There's a fine line there between your feet being soaked in sweat and being soaked in wet snow, whether in boots or running shoes. Either one will do damage. If it's not dangerously cold, I'd rather have my feet in fresh water than in my own sweat.
Simplest way to keep your feet warm, wool socks and plastic grocery bags over them. You'll get a little sweaty, but your feet will be a lot warmer.
I'm debating this on myself as I'll headed to the Hangout at Wise shelter this weekend.
I was there last Saturday and there was still plenty of snow, mud, and water with more on the way.
Probably be doing more loitering than hiking.
Being more of a trailrunner than a backpacker I'm a big fan of Montrail's Masochist -the lugs seem adequate but probably not up to boot standards.
I've been out in the snow in them about 5 out of 7 days since mid December.
They drain very well and seem to resist moisture as well as any I've seen.
But good drainage is the more important of the too.
I use two pair of socks(at least one wool), but my feet do get a little cold when the snow is slushy.
May try that single pair idea and see if it helps
I've heard good reports on the sealskins, but haven't tried them.
jjj
300winmag
01-29-2010, 23:44
They DO make such a thing as Gore-Tex socks. :)
You're risking frostbite W/ skimpy trail runners. Next time at least get them lined W/ GTX if you have "boot phobia" and cn't abide wearing GTX lined hiking boots.
Eric
These last few days in the snow I used neoprene booties I got from warmstuff.com. Cheap and work great.:)
I once used seal skins and my feet never smelled soooo bad.:o
Agree. I had a near major problem on my last trip due to frozen wet boots on Day 1 and they stayed solid for the next 12 days. One morning it took me a good 30 minutes just to pry my feet into them and it was like walking in a steel trap. It even got so bad that I seriously considered going back to the Sorel pak boot solution with the felt inserts and the rubber bottoms. Great snow and cold boots, heck to walk in for any distance.
On my next trip I'm taking the beefier Asolo Fugitives and a new pair of WM down booties! Yeehaw! I'll find room in the pack for 'em.
I know what you mean about the Sorel pack boots. Heavy and no foot support. I couldn't change the weight of the boot, but I did toss my superfeet (green btw) insoles inside the felt liners and that made a world of difference in how the boots felt to my feet. Still had plenty of room for liner sock and heavy wool sock.
I have tried the plastic bags on your feet in Colorado winter trips. They work fine as long as you are moving. Once you stop your feet will freeze. I would not use this method unless I knew for sure that when I stopped I would be able to change to dry wool socks and some down booties or something similar.
Keen makes some lightweight insulated boots worth looking at.