View Full Version : toxic HEET
rappglenn
01-29-2010, 01:38
Ok i already know HEET is toxic but i just read that you should not keep your stove as it can contaiminate it is this true I was under the impression everything burned off does anyone store thier stove in thier pot or do you take special protectitions I dont dont think its that toxic
beakerman
01-29-2010, 01:56
HEET is methanol. Methanol evaporates at room temperature and is completely water soluble so even if you did have a wet spill and didn't want to wait the few seconds for it to evaporate you could just give the pot a few quick rinses with water and go with it.
Keep in mind all alcoholic beverages contain trace amounts of methanol so even if you didn't get it all out with the rinses the amount you would consume at that point would be about the same as what you get with a shot of Crown.
beakerman
01-29-2010, 01:57
even easier...you could just flame it off...put your bic to it and let it burn off.
rappglenn
01-29-2010, 11:50
I dident think is was a problem I just read this warning I figure its just an over reaction I dont think there is any residue left over and as long as no one is droping dead ill roll the dice
Any stove is going to have some residue you don't want to ingest. That's why I never store my stove in my pot. But other than that, there's nothing significant to worry about.
Hmm, the web site that sells my stove/pot combination shows the stove packed inside the pot (http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/popup_image.php?pID=129&image=0&osCsid=ce845c925e35440f004de75917506ed8) ...
JustaTouron
01-29-2010, 15:46
Any stove is going to have some residue you don't want to ingest. That's why I never store my stove in my pot. But other than that, there's nothing significant to worry about.
Thats my take...
I store my stove in a plastic bag. I store the plastic bag in my cooking pot. Keeps the inside of the pot from getting dirty.
I have a similar alchy stove setup that I store inside a Snow Peak Mini Solo as you pictured BrianLe. After researching some BPL links about hazards of fuels commonly used in alchy stoves I'm rethinking how I do things w/ my stove, cookware, and fuel. IMO, and in the opinion of some of who know a lot more about toxic chemicals than me, Heet and some DNAlcohol hazards ARE NOT something to be taken lightly. Heet is definitely not something I want on exposed skin or to be consuming in ANY amounts.
Something I'd never thought of before --- in my previous stove setup, I also had the alcohol stove stored in the pot; I think this actually might be pretty common.
I guess an easy fix is to put the stove in a ziplock sandwich bag.
Snowleopard
01-29-2010, 16:31
Any stove is going to have some residue you don't want to ingest. That's why I never store my stove in my pot. But other than that, there's nothing significant to worry about.
I hadn't thought of that. It's likely true, with the possible exception of canister stoves (very little residue). Even with wood stoves, you probably don't want to consume the combustion residues in any quantity.
Methanol will evaporate quickly. You want to minimize the amount of vapors you inhale and want to minimize getting it on your skin. Some of the other ingredients in denatured alcohol are nasty.
As I understand it, one treatment for methanol poisoning is to injest ethanol. Apparently the ethanol takes the place of methanol where it would do harm, and the body can deal with the ethanol. For this reason denatured alcohol, ethanol with methanol in it, is still poisonous, but is safer than pure methanol. The other solution, which many abide by, is to drink alot of alcohol while cooking with heet. You know, just in case. ;)
Jester2000
01-29-2010, 16:35
They just have those warnings so dumb people don't try to drink it straight from the bottle.
Thinking about this a little further, so long as the stove burns itself out (my normal process) the residue has to be pretty minimal, and perhaps sort of "baked on" to the inside of the stove. How much of this, if any, is likely to somehow come off the (inside of the) stove and be left inside my pot when I heat water in it?
It might be interesting to have a pointer to the original referenced warning --- i.e., was it someone just laying awake at night looking for things to worry about, or is there any data or other tangible basis for concern? To be clear, I'm not questioning that HEET or danat. alcohol isn't bad to inject (!), just questioning whether any meaningful amount could get into my cooked food via the process I currently use.
JustaTouron
01-29-2010, 19:06
Here is why I use the plastic bag.....
First and foremost my stove sits on the ground....in mouse crap and dirt etc. So when I put the stove in the pot that dirt isn't coming going into the pot but the bag. Yeah, I brush the bottom off first on my dirty pants...but we aren't really talking all that sterile of a cleaning job.
Second, lets say you got gunk built up inside the stove. Then one day you trip and fall. So your stove gets jarred considerably move than normal and dislodges not one days worth of gunk but a months worth. Now you got a months worth of gunk in your pot.
I say either stick the stove in a baggy or rinse the pot before using it each time.
beakerman
01-29-2010, 19:14
Ok I will state this as plainly as humanly possible:
First of all I am a CHEMIST not just some schmuck on a backpacking forum so I speak of this from a truly educated point of fact.
Yes ingesting a certain quanity of methanol (primary ingredient in HEET) or even denatured alcohol (which typically refers to ethanol with a small quantity of benzene in it to make sure folks don't drink it) is obvioulsy bad for you..large enough amounts can blind you and even larger amounts can kill you.
Those are the facts.
The quantities involves in say a fuel spill in your pot are only may be 1 or 2 ml wetting the surface (and that's for a large pot) once you dump it out.
Both denatured alcohol and methanol are 100% water soluble so if you just give it a rinse or two then it's effectively gone.
If you want to be harsh about it put a match to it and flame it off or fire up your stove and give it a little heat to evaporate it off.
Either way and you will not have enough of either left on the surface of the pot to make a difference.
As I pointed out before if you drink any alcoholic beverages you are consuming a measurable quantity of methanol...it's a natural fermentation product.
In short DO NOT worry about storing your alky stove in your pot.
I would not advise that for a petroleum based fuel though---that is a different matter.
take-a-knee
01-29-2010, 19:23
Dances With Mice is also a chemist, he has posted that he used a spectral gas analyzer to try to detect ANY methanol left on a soda can stove after all the fuel burns off. There was none detectable. I wouldn't worry about the stove. I would not pack my fuel bottle inside the pot, but that is just me.
the solution to polution is dilution
Snowleopard
01-30-2010, 00:42
Beakerman is probably right, little danger from storing a stove that burns methanol in your pot. Any spilled will evaporate quickly and as B says can be washed out with water.
BUT, HEET is not pure methanol, it has 1% of 'proprietary additive'; we don't know what that is nor what it's toxicity may be.
Denatured alcohol in the USA will sometimes contains fairly nasty chemicals. The alcohol is fairly safe, but denaturing chemicals may not be.
Methanol is fairly toxic. 10 mL (2 teaspoons) will cause blindness. So, be very careful not to spill any into your food. Store it in a container that no one is likely to mistake for a drink. Storing it in a water bottle is a really bad idea; I've seen 12 oz bottled water bottles described as the ideal container. Even if you know it's not water, another hiker may not. Minimize breathing methanol and avoid getting it on your skin.
Beakerman, I don't think benzene is used to denature alcohol, I haven't seen it in the MSDS for the brands I've checked. Benzene may be a contaminant in denatured alky. Benzine (naptha) may be used to denature alcohol.
jeremyduncan
01-30-2010, 04:15
I keep my fuel bottle (recycled 8oz water bottle full of Heet) and my stove in my Heiny can. Guess I better give it a rinse before I boil water ion it, next time, huh?
...or maybe carry the bottle separate.
rappglenn
01-30-2010, 11:21
the alcohol will burn off but what about all those additive I mean look what they put in our food and then imagine what they can get away with in a gas additive
JustaTouron
01-30-2010, 17:32
Store it in a container that no one is likely to mistake for a drink. Storing it in a water bottle is a really bad idea; I've seen 12 oz bottled water bottles described as the ideal container. Even if you know it's not water, another hiker may not.
Some folks might consider this cold, but I see no problem storing it in a water bottle as long as YOU know its not water.
Don't drink from other people's water bottles without asking first!!!
The use of water bottles for storing the fuel is just nature's way of getting rid of stupid jerks that steal other people's water, food etc.
Won't get rid of the smart jerks. They know enough to make sure it is water and not fuel, before drinking it. And won't get rid of considerate blithering idiots. They may bumble around the campsite, but they won't steal your stuff.
But there are those who reside at the intersection of moron and jerk. Those folks will earn themselves the Darwin award and by drinking someone elses fuel thus improving the overall gene pool.
Hikes in Rain
01-30-2010, 18:03
To quote Niven and Pournelle: "Think of it as evolution in action."
jeremyduncan
01-30-2010, 21:43
Could be an emergency situation. Heck, you could have an accident and someone might wanna wash your wounds or feed you some of your "water".
Stoviegal
01-30-2010, 22:46
Could be an emergency situation. Heck, you could have an accident and someone might wanna wash your wounds or feed you some of your "water".
Excellent reason to clearly, unmistakably, lable your bottles or not use a water bottle at all. And like Compass said, "Karma," that might be good enough reason for some souls. :D
Thank you Beakerman for your positive feedback especially considering you are a chemist.
No doubt, MANY, are concerned about the health hazards of chemicals. There is much skepticism, paranoia, and misinformation concerning potential hazards to human health and the environment, though probably with good cause because the public has been deceived, lied to, misled, and misinformed in the past, sometimes resulting in fatal consequences, sometimes on a large scale. To think this is not still occurring is being grossly naive. Perhaps, now, more than ever it occurs to even a greater extent than we commonly recognize. How many other hazards and incidences of negligence occur that we are not privy to? There is a lot of profit, power, and influence at stake. Businesses with an interest, EPA, FDA, other govt groups, and those commissioned to conduct studies that are designed to achieve preconceived outcomes and who are sympathetic to one powerful or for profit group or another are not exactly the ones who MANY trust for unbiased reliable truthful information.
I will still use my alchy stove for my upcoming long distance thru-hike, mainly because the readily available different types of fuels. I will use HEET and DNalcohol. However, I will also heed the warnings by avoiding cross contamination between fuel and cookware and attempting to eliminate skin contact, inhalation, and ingestion of these fuels. Like I said before, these types of common alchy stove fuels contain chemicals that I don't find acceptable to introduce into my body in ANY amounts! Methanol is just one extremely carcinogenic toxic chemical THAT WE KNOW OF in these fuels to avoid. There are others! Personally, I would rather do everything I know proactively possible to stay safe and healthy even if that means I'm labeled as an extremist.
Snowleopard
01-30-2010, 23:26
Dogwood, I don't believe methanol is carcinogenic. It is fairly toxic when ingested. It is harmful when inhaled or absorbed through the skin, but from the msds it takes a lot to be fatal. It seems prudent to minimize inhalation and spilling it on your skin. In other words, be careful with it; if you are than it seems fairly safe.
I think that most fuels are harmful if ingested or inhaled, except wood. The smoke/combustion products are also harmful.
The safest fuel until you burn it is probably is ethanol that is not denatured (or wood). Unfortunately, most alcohol stoves generate a relatively high amount of carbon monoxide. Backpackinglight.com has an article on CO measurements produced by different stoves. The best are some canister stoves. My optimus nova is pretty good with white gas/coleman fuel. Again, this all means you need to be careful. Use your stove in a well ventilated space -- kind of hard to avoid being well ventilated on the trail if you don't use the stove in a tent.
Jester2000
01-31-2010, 17:30
As a side note, even though it's not particularly toxic it's probably still not a good idea to be eating wood.
They just have those warnings so dumb people don't try to drink it straight from the bottle.
Probably more to the point - so that alcoholics don't drink it straight.....
In a world of things to worry about, for me alcohol stove fuel is not one of them. It's easy to handle safely. Casual contact is not at the levels needed to cause concern. Spills evaporate quickly w/o residue and it washes away easily with a little water.
My guess is the smoke inhaled from the campfire is a much greater health hazard.
beakerman
02-07-2010, 23:52
Thank you Beakerman for your positive feedback especially considering you are a chemist.
No doubt, MANY, are concerned about the health hazards of chemicals. There is much skepticism, paranoia, and misinformation concerning potential hazards to human health and the environment, though probably with good cause because the public has been deceived, lied to, misled, and misinformed in the past, sometimes resulting in fatal consequences, sometimes on a large scale. To think this is not still occurring is being grossly naive. Perhaps, now, more than ever it occurs to even a greater extent than we commonly recognize. How many other hazards and incidences of negligence occur that we are not privy to? There is a lot of profit, power, and influence at stake. Businesses with an interest, EPA, FDA, other govt groups, and those commissioned to conduct studies that are designed to achieve preconceived outcomes and who are sympathetic to one powerful or for profit group or another are not exactly the ones who MANY trust for unbiased reliable truthful information.
I will still use my alchy stove for my upcoming long distance thru-hike, mainly because the readily available different types of fuels. I will use HEET and DNalcohol. However, I will also heed the warnings by avoiding cross contamination between fuel and cookware and attempting to eliminate skin contact, inhalation, and ingestion of these fuels. Like I said before, these types of common alchy stove fuels contain chemicals that I don't find acceptable to introduce into my body in ANY amounts! Methanol is just one extremely carcinogenic toxic chemical THAT WE KNOW OF in these fuels to avoid. There are others! Personally, I would rather do everything I know proactively possible to stay safe and healthy even if that means I'm labeled as an extremist.
In short Methanol is NOT, repeat NOT carcinogenic. It is a neurotoxin like all of the alcohols. Keep in mind as you down tha shooter next you are at the bar your favorite alcoholic beverage contains the following, some of which are indeed carcinogens: Ethanol (NT), Methanol (NT), Formaldehyde (C), acetaldehyde (C) and a plethora of other known carcinogens and neurotoxins.
If you are using alcohol as a fuel you have much more to worry about handling your fuel than you do from residue in the event of a spill. unless you bathe in the stuff or inject it into your system you will drink far more in a night at the bar than will absorb through your skin in the few seconds it takes to evaporate and it will likely disperse in the air around you before you breathe enough of it in to do any harm as well.
In short you are fine if you don't open your container and down a shot of it.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but while most have probably given Methanol a brief glance on its toxicity, and like myself will continue to use alcohol stoves and fuel that may contain Methanol, some pts some may wish to further research. True, Methanol is not listed as a carcinogen. Like Beakerman stated it's labeled as neurotoxin. Methanol is considered to be toxic to humans. I think that is the main pt to keep in mind. Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin and mucous membranes. Other highly toxic chemicals can be found in other alcohol stove fuels. Some may desire to view the MSDS toxicity sheets on various chemicals and name brand compounds of possible alcohol stove fuels. Although, it may seem easier to have a complacent I don't care I'll ignore it attitude, it might be wise to just understand how to protect oneself to eliminate or minimize toxic chemical health risks. To pretend that risks don't exist from chemical toxicity, no matter how seemingly insignificant we are told they are by some, is not the approach to my health I wish to take.
I could find no data or research confirming any studies have been conducted on Methanol as a carcinogen in humans when studying possible carcinogenic effects directly on humans. In other words, only limted research has been conducted examining Methanol as a carcinogen only in lab animals as subjects. I find it interesting to note that while Methanol may not be labeled as a carcinogen that once Methanol is absorbed into the human body it is broken down in the liver into formaldehyde and formic acid. Formadelhyde is a know neurotoxin and carcinogen in humans.
It seems scientific research is sometimes conducted in ways that make me want to say, "HUMMM!"
sasquatch2014
02-08-2010, 08:15
Probably more to the point - so that alcoholics don't drink it straight.....
Yes one should always drink from a glass to show a bit of good form and I find that if poured over crushed ice with a bit of freshly crushed mint it is as good as any drink on Derby day!:rolleyes:
take-a-knee
02-08-2010, 08:55
If someone does carelessly ingest methanol, the treatment is ETHANOL (really) so keep some everclear handy.:)
Is it just me, or does TOXIC HEET sound like something I might find for sale for adult entertainment.
p.s. Yes I know, stoves are adult entertainment, but I meant the other kind.
Do you also watch out for meteors falling from the sky? I hear they are pretty lethal if one falls directly on you.
sasquatch2014
02-08-2010, 11:28
If someone does carelessly ingest methanol, the treatment is ETHANOL (really) so keep some everclear handy.:)
That or moonshine both burn really well in the stove and you can drink it too.
Jester2000
02-08-2010, 13:48
Do you also watch out for meteors falling from the sky? I hear they are pretty lethal if one falls directly on you.
Yeah, that's kind of my issue with this. As with the burning tent thread, I think this might be something to worry about if any hiker had ever died from spilling fuel on themselves or touching it, or drinking it.
Is there any evidence that this has ever happened?
sasquatch2014
02-08-2010, 14:44
Yeah, that's kind of my issue with this. As with the burning tent thread, I think this might be something to worry about if any hiker had ever died from spilling fuel on themselves or touching it, or drinking it.
Is there any evidence that this has ever happened?
I was trying to convince Doggiebag a few winters back that a Road Flare would heat his tent nicely, give a warm glow and provide entertainment for the rest of us.
beakerman
02-08-2010, 19:53
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but while most have probably given Methanol a brief glance on its toxicity, and like myself will continue to use alcohol stoves and fuel that may contain Methanol, some pts some may wish to further research.
Then why continue?
True, Methanol is not listed as a carcinogen.
You said it was in your previous post...that's why I pointed out your error.
Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin and mucous membranes.
Readily is a very subjective term...and as such rarely (another subjective term) is used in MSDS context...you would have to bathe in Methanol to have any harmful effect.
As far as vapors go: those limits are for folks that basically live in the stuff 8 hours a day...do you suck your fuel vapors 8 hours /day? I don't know anyone that does.
The fatal dose if taken straight up--think a shot--is 100ml.
I could find no data or research confirming any studies have been conducted on Methanol as a carcinogen in humans when studying possible carcinogenic effects directly on humans. In other words, only limted research has been conducted examining Methanol as a carcinogen only in lab animals as subjects.
Umm that's because it's not a carcinogen...water can kill you too if inhaled or too much is consumed...go look it up if you don't believe me.
I find it interesting to note that while Methanol may not be labeled as a carcinogen that once Methanol is absorbed into the human body it is broken down in the liver into formaldehyde and formic acid. Formadelhyde is a know neurotoxin and carcinogen in humans.
It seems scientific research is sometimes conducted in ways that make me want to say, "HUMMM!"
You seem a tad paranoid about this. however in order for things to be considered as carcinogens they have to cause cancer directly...metabolites don't typically count so perhaps you are on to something there...but I disagree with your assertions in the first place that there is any real concern about methanol as a fuel.
If it were a problem, given the vast quantities of it used in the thousands or even possibly millions of alky stoves out there some one would have figured it out by now.
You have many more things to worry about than poisoning yourself with your alky stove--even if you store you fuel in your cook pot and you have a leak. Common sense (which turns out to be rather uncommon here) says rinse it out or flame it off and you'll be fine. Phobias of chemicals are exactly that irrational fears usually "rationalized" by bad information.
Don't drink your methanol and you'll be fine.
So, I went car camping this past weekend. We have a state wide burn ban right now due to windy and dry conditions. I brought fire wood and marshmallows, go figure. Not a show stealer though. Determined to roast a few marshmallows with the family. I pulled out my Thru Hiker Stove and lit it up with HEET and roasted a few masrhmallows.
Any danger (toxins) to the marshmallow abosrbing anything harmful?
Bad idea?
Please enlighten me,
SMSP
Skidsteer
10-11-2010, 16:15
Bad idea. Not something I would want to do.
I would say that, yes, that is a bad idea.
Bad Idea because.......
SMSP
Appalachian Tater
10-11-2010, 20:33
It's worth saying that if you buy HEET as a fuel you want the stuff in the yellow bottle, not the red bottle.
I remember it by thinking "yellow means caution" and "red means stop".