View Full Version : Wool worth the weight?
KnittingMelissa
02-04-2010, 21:03
I was looking through my list of things I intend to bring on the AT in 2011, and comparing to a lists a lot of others have posted, and had a few questions specifically about clothes and wool.
Is wool worth the weight? I know it does weigh a little more than a lot of the new materials that are available on the market, but, as a knitter and naalbinder, it's a lot easier for me to get socks, wrists warmers, arms warmers, scarves, hats, and sweaters by knitting and/or naalbinding them than it is to buy them. It's also a lot cheaper as well (some good, thick wool for knitting is less than a pair of socks, and they fit me perfectly).
Heck, I'm even planning on bringing some needles and yarn to knit while I'm on the trail, just in case I need another pair of socks along the way!
I know the sweater is going to be a little heavy and bulky (it's a nordic sweater design based on the designs worn in Norway since the 1600s), but it's very warm, and has enough lanolin in it to give it the waterproofing it needs, though it's not tight knit enough to be a fisherman's sweater, sadly. But it is double layered.
I was just wondering, I noticed all the super light weight clothes and was wondering if the weight trade off was worth the warmth and wear trade off.
Feral Bill
02-04-2010, 21:17
A loose knit sweater will vent nicely when allowed, while being warm when snugged in a shell layer. That's about ideal. The weight difference for equal warmth is not much. In fact, I tend to wear fleece in town and wool when hiking. You'll be fine either way.
JustaTouron
02-04-2010, 21:21
The weight difference between wool and synthetics is pretty negligible. The biggest reason you don't see more people wearing wool is that unless knit it yourself wool clothes are a lot more expensive. And most of us don't knit.
I keep a merino wool sweater in my pack most of the time except summer of course. It is not bulky, it is warm, and will dry quickly. If it is good enough for Tipi Walter, it is good enough for me! He is the master of cold weather clothing. I usually find mine at Target for a decent price.
KnittingMelissa
02-04-2010, 21:26
A loose knit sweater will vent nicely when allowed, while being warm when snugged in a shell layer. That's about ideal. The weight difference for equal warmth is not much. In fact, I tend to wear fleece in town and wool when hiking. You'll be fine either way.
Okay, thanks for that. I was a little bit worried, but now I'm glad I'm going with the wool (though probably a different sweater, now that I think about it), it also gives me something to occupy my time this summer if I do need a new sweater.
Hmm... to the design pad, away!
Check out backpacking light or Icebreaker, their ultralight merino wool products are AWESOME. All I wear now as my tee shirt or base layer, suprisingly warm, super light, GREAT PRODUCTS! Not itchy, do not smell, dry fast, 4 season wear
I have some cheap cashmere sweaters from Costco. I think they're as warm or warmer, ounce-for-ounce, than my fleeces. They weigh about the same, too. Colin Fletcher was a big fan of cashmere. Wool's good stuff, and the sheep don't seem to mind too much.
I prefer wool underwear to synthetic for the stink factor. For a mid layer I prefer fleece to wool because it's just as warm, doesn't absorb as much water, and dries faster (but just like synthetic underwear, the stink factor is higher than wool).
My own personal, biased, subjective, questionable and highly debatable take... :sun
SIDE NOTE: Wool vs Fleece (or Wool vs Synthetics)
There has been a bit of resurgence in the use of wool for backcountry use (esp in base layers). So what to use? It honestly does not matter for most people; it comes down to personal preference. As long as you do not use cotton, you should be fine. Many people use a combo of wool and synthetics (esp in winter). If you are curious of the pros and cons of each, here is my personal take:
Wool
Warm when damp
Can be inexpensive (thrift stores, surplus) or expensive (Smartwool, Ibex, etc)
Tends to breathe better than synthetics
More durable
Less odor
Takes longer to dry when wet (and becomes heavier)
Usually bulkier and heavier than comparable synthetics or fleece
Synthetics or Fleece
Dries quicker (but is not warm when damp)
For base layers, good ole' polypro can be ridiculously cheap
Usually less heavy and bulky than the wool equivalent
Can get a pungent odor
So what do I use?
For winter use, when I am more concerned about warmth than weight (and I am wearing most of my layers), I tend to favor wool base layers (except for the liner socks) as it is more forgiving of sweating I find. A wool hat tends to be warmer if it gets damp in snow vs a fleece hat as well. A surplus wool sweater is now my warm layer of choice, too. In the cold, dry conditions of Colorado, I find wool works very well overall.
In three season backpacking, when weight and bulk is a chief a concern (and most of my layers are stowed), I tend to wear synthetics. Any moisture in spring through fall tends to be rain (or very wet snow), so the quick drying properties of synthetics comes in handy.
Overall, you may find one combo works better than another based on your budget, availability of what you may already have or just personal preference.
I love wool and haul a wool sweater for local weekend cold weather trips. It is ratty and old and it is just so warm and comfortable in the evenings over a synthetic shirt. One of our group is a knitter and we all wore the blaze orange hats she made us on our At section. The hats are really great and easy and something you can easily make for gifts. My fear with wool is that if it gets wet, it may take longer than the synthetics to dry out ? but I have not had sopping wool so really have to ask people on this site who have. Tinker says, the stink factor is way lower with wool, especially the socks. and I agreewith that and so do my stinky feet.
I did not see Mags post earlier. I apologize. Mags hit the target the first time. Thanks Mags for putting it all together coherently.
wannahike
02-05-2010, 16:30
Unless you are planning to knit your socks with 0000 or smaller needles they will not hold up very long walking hours every day. If you plan on hiking in a hand knit sweater consider double knitting across the shoulders where the pack straps hit for the same reason.
My favorite hand knit for hiking after a hat is a light scarf. It adds a lot of warmth across your chest.
Old Grouse
02-05-2010, 16:39
I can't believe Jak hasn't chimed in yet. He' a great proponent of wool.
Pedaling Fool
02-05-2010, 16:45
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/medny/buttowski/wwb1.jpg
The Woolworth Building, completed in 1913, stands at a height of 792 feet, 1 inch. Conceived by Frank W. Woolworth, designed by Cass Gilbert and engineered by Gunvald Aus, it was designed and built to be the tallest building in the world.
Just my opinion, but I believe it's too heavy
:sun
KnittingMelissa
02-05-2010, 16:47
Unless you are planning to knit your socks with 0000 or smaller needles they will not hold up very long walking hours every day.
And, oddly enough, I own a full set of said needles, and will happily use them to knit socks. Yes, I'm that crazy knitter. :sun
I mix wool with fleece/polyester but don't use down or synthetic fill clothing.
I think when you consider the complete system, there is no extra weight.
Knit wool socks work very well in winter, if you use good quality yarn. Obviously, it isn't worth knitting a thin pair, but medium and thick knit wool socks are excellent, if you can find a good knitter. A better project for the novice, like myself, is a wool neck tube.
I can't believe Jak hasn't chimed in yet. He' a great proponent of wool.DING DONG :sun
wannahike
02-05-2010, 16:59
And, oddly enough, I own a full set of said needles, and will happily use them to knit socks. Yes, I'm that crazy knitter.
Me too :)
KnittingMelissa
02-05-2010, 17:38
Knit wool socks work very well in winter, if you use good quality yarn. Obviously, it isn't worth knitting a thin pair, but medium and thick knit wool socks are excellent, if you can find a good knitter. A better project for the novice, like myself, is a wool neck tube.
Socks are easy to knit (second thing I ever knit), though I tend to do a lot of the stranded (two color design) knitting now because it's more interesting than just plain socks. That also supplies two layers of wool, and they felt together beautifully (Nature Spun is my favorite, as it's an American wool with outstanding colors). I shall have the fanciest socks on all the trail next year. :p
I hope you let us know how the socks work out for you! I've just started knitting again after a decade-long layoff and and having a blast. Next project on the list are some mittens, then socks. In March I'm taking a two-session class to make felted clogs. I wonder how they would be for hiking....
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 18:48
Nice to see another knitter (yes I am a guy and I do knit).
You dont need 0000 needles to knit socks. Either size 1 or 0 are just fine and infact fingering wool and #1 make a great sock. My only complaint is that its tedious and seems to take for ever when your knitting 12-13 rows to an inch.
Now a couple things. Merino wook isnt necessarily the ideal wool for socks, because of its softness its not going to hold out as well as other types of wool. And in turn socks made on smaller yarn and smaller needles will hold up bettern than worsted made on larger needles.
Also, wool for socks with a man made fiber content will hold up better than 100% wool. Say 75% wool and 25% nylon. Another way to make hand knitted socks last on the trail is to double the yarn when turning the heel and knitting the toe. Finally I would also suggest learning to darn to nawlbind to maintain hand knit socks.
Blissful
02-05-2010, 18:51
I was glad for a nice wool hat I got for my birthday - will probably take it hiking. But a wool sweater also takes forever to dry and is heavy when wet which is why I wouldn't bring it for hiking, imo.
KnittingMelissa
02-05-2010, 19:02
Also, wool for socks with a man made fiber content will hold up better than 100% wool. Say 75% wool and 25% nylon. Another way to make hand knitted socks last on the trail is to double the yarn when turning the heel and knitting the toe. Finally I would also suggest learning to darn to nawlbind to maintain hand knit socks.
It's pretty standard to double yarn for heels and toes (especially for me, I walk everywhere anyway) with a more resilient yarn. I picked up some Norwegian yarn today to knit and see how those go. It's not as soft as normal yarn, but it is tougher (Blue Faced Leichester). So, while it may not be as soft, it should work better than my standard socks (though my best wool socks have lasted a year with jut a little felting and no damage, I'm impressed).
But you shouldn't be using naalbinding to fix socks. While it is similar, it's also a lot different than darning. I plan on taking a pair or two of naalbinded socks with me just for the beginning of the trail in February. They'll be much too thick once the weather warms up. But hey, if the Vikings would wear them for warmth, that's good enough for me! :sun
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 19:24
But you shouldn't be using naalbinding to fix socks. While it is similar, it's also a lot different than darning. I plan on taking a pair or two of naalbinded socks with me just for the beginning of the trail in February. They'll be much too thick once the weather warms up. But hey, if the Vikings would wear them for warmth, that's good enough for me! :sun
I would like to know why I shouldnt use naalbinding to repair socks. Trust me I do know the difference between the techniques and find either suitable for repairing socks.
a wool sweater takes forever to dry and is heavy when wet which is why I wouldn't bring it for hiking, imo.
I pack my wool sweater for section hikes when the forecast is mid 30s and rain because wool still insulates when wet
Jester2000
02-05-2010, 20:01
And, oddly enough, I own a full set of said needles, and will happily use them to knit socks. Yes, I'm that crazy knitter. :sun
So it appears that "KnittingMelissa" isn't meant to be ironic.
I'm a big fan of wool.
Jester2000
02-05-2010, 20:05
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present, for your enjoyment, the first ever knitting related whiteblaze argument:
But you shouldn't be using naalbinding to fix socks. While it is similar, it's also a lot different than darning. I plan on taking a pair or two of naalbinded socks with me just for the beginning of the trail in February. They'll be much too thick once the weather warms up. But hey, if the Vikings would wear them for warmth, that's good enough for me! :sun
I would like to know why I shouldnt use naalbinding to repair socks. Trust me I do know the difference between the techniques and find either suitable for repairing socks.
Snowleopard
02-05-2010, 20:09
Wool can work great. Synthetics have some advantages (dry faster), but wool is still pretty useful. The main problem is it's expensive, but maybe knitting your own is cheaper.
I had a wool sweater I got in a market place in Peru that was really warm for it's weight. It was a loose knit and fuzzy. It wasn't windproof, so you needed a windbreaker. I think it was alpaca. One or two of those would make great insulation layers.
I also had a military surplus wool sweater that was the opposite -- very robust, thick, heavy, warm. It had cotton or nylon fabric across the shoulders to make it wear better when worn with a pack.
For winter use, consider boiled wool mittens, like the Dachstein, hats and maybe even socks.
--Walter, non-knitter.
wannahike
02-05-2010, 20:20
Nice to see another knitter (yes I am a guy and I do knit).
You dont need 0000 needles to knit socks..
But if you don't you will walk right out of handknit socks no matter how much nylon or mohair the yarn contains. I prefer mohair it keeps my feet warmer.
I think one really needs to be knitting at least 14-16 spi to have socks that one can wear every day all day hiking. :)
Ii is nice to see more knitters.
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 20:28
But if you don't you will walk right out of handknit socks no matter how much nylon or mohair the yarn contains. I prefer mohair it keeps my feet warmer.
I think one really needs to be knitting at least 14-16 spi to have socks that one can wear every day all day hiking. :)
Ii is nice to see more knitters.
We'll have to disagree. #1 and #0 are more than sufficient. Now I will agree that larger needles and yarn dont wear as hard, but I have a couple pairs of socks that have seen some pretty hard service over the last year. Knitted on #6 needles with Cascades 220 worsted yarn and from a vintage patterns.
Damn, am I really arguing about knitting?
:p
PS anyone here also on Ravelry?
I will have to try knitting my own socks. Thanks.
I am very pleased with how my pair of knit socks are holding up.
I got them surprisingly cheap too, at a sale, for $10 I think it was.
You do have to be a little more careful washing them. So far I don't wear them for every day use, and when I do I just soak them, rinse them, and let them air dry. I don't do this every time I wear them. I will use them for 2-3 days, then do it. I think one pair would be a good idea for the cold months of a thru-hike. If I learned to knit socks, I would knit replacement socks, etc. during the trip. Maybe not so much in the summer months. :)
Skidsteer
02-05-2010, 20:55
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present, for your enjoyment, the first ever knitting related whiteblaze argument:
It's reassuring and creepy all at the same time.
Well, it IS different from which filters/stove/knife/ is the best....
:sun
Which is better, knit 1 pearl 2, or knit 1 pearl 1, or knit 2 pearl 2.
I'm a knit 1 pearl 2 man myself.
KnittingMelissa
02-05-2010, 21:15
I would like to know why I shouldnt use naalbinding to repair socks. Trust me I do know the difference between the techniques and find either suitable for repairing socks.
Naalbinded stitches have a much different tension than knit stitches (there's no way your thumb is that tiny), and, depending on the stitch and whether it's an f1 or an f2 connection, a much different drape. An f2 connection simply has no stretch what so ever, so it will stay tight and pucker all the fabric around it, which will cause bunching in the sock and can cause blisters.
And f1 connection, while looser, still suffers from having a different drape than a knit stitch, though it will pucker much less horizontally but will still have puckering vertically, leading to the same issue as the f2 connection again, though only from one side. But still equally as uncomfortable.
You also have to take into account that even a basic York stitch is two times as thick as even DK knit socks. It's out of place, and thus repairs are spotty and will stand out in feeling on your foot.
No, if you want to repair knit socks, darn. If you want to repair naalbinded socks, naalbind. But, much like how weave fabric is different from knit fabric, so is knit fabric different from naalbinded fabric.
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 21:19
Again, we'll just have to disagree. I use both and wear stockings repaired using both methods each day. But oh well, we'll leave it at that.
Skidsteer
02-05-2010, 21:24
Now this is entertainment!
Please don't leave it at that.
When my mother was 12 years old she knit socks for the Nazis. No ****.
Actually, it was for the Helsinki Fund, and the Finns were allies at the time, not axis.
... and the Finns were never really Nazis, just victims of circumstances.
My mother did knit a whole bunch of socks for Finland though, and other stuff. Neat huh.
Man she sure could knit. Clickity click. Clickity click. My cat used to drive her nuts. lol
Jester2000
02-05-2010, 21:34
Now this is entertainment!
Please don't leave it at that.
I know! I kind of want to goad them on, but I have no idea what the hell they're talking about. It's like they're speaking a secret language twins teach one another.
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 21:38
So what if we talk about knitting water filter cozies?
Imagine her surprise when the Russians became allies and the Finns enemies.
She was pretty happy when the Americans joined. Her dad was ticked pink.
"They're in it now by God! They're in it now!" He was a prisoner in WWI.
My mother talked of such things when she knit. Knitting is a wonderful thing.
When I smell wool. I think of my mother, and Finns in Finland, wearing my mother's socks and attacking Russian tanks on skis. Wool takes me all sorts of places. Some places I've even been too. I bought an Aldernay sweater in Aldernay. Nice little island of the Channel Islands. It was occupied by the Germans and fortified as part of the Atlantic wall. I was given a tour by a man that was a boy on the island, and evacuated, then returned. Shown where the three work camps were, for the Western Europeans, the Eastern Europeans, and the Jewish camp run by the SS. I saw a fence where a young German soldier wrote a lament to his girlfriend. It was a good sweater. Channel Island sweaters and english yarn is the very best for wet weather.
Tuckahoe
02-05-2010, 21:47
JAK, pretty cool and thanks for sharing.
JustaTouron
02-05-2010, 21:48
I know! I kind of want to goad them on, but I have no idea what the hell they're talking about. It's like they're speaking a secret language twins teach one another.
According to my wife knitting involves 2 needles; naalbinding uses just one needle. I think my mom called that crochet but wife she says its different.
I created an account just so I can say that my favorite hiking socks are made with worsted weight BFL and size 3 needles. They're warm and like iron. Also, since my foot size is on the cusp of regular sock sizes, usually I have to go up and have floppy socks. These ones fit my feet perfectly.
BFL = Blue Faced Leicester, a hard wearing long wool. Much better than merino because the individual fibers themselves are longer, but still comfortable for next-to-skin wear unlike most long wools. Found it inexpensively on the internet.
The Alderney cow is now extinct. Apparently the Germans ate them. Understandable, as they were starving at the time. I saw where the prison camp workers, starving and suffering from dystentry, went over the cliffs. That was just one small island. I also saw the gun emplacements, and the lighthouse the special forces recaptured, and a fort from Victorian times, and even a dolmen from neolithic times. The Romans occupied Alderney too, and many others.
And of course, all through the ages, wool.
JAK, pretty cool and thanks for sharing.Thanks. I think I am done, for now. :)
Andrea356
02-05-2010, 22:23
I'm glad I'm not the only one who hauls his or her knitting into the backcountry! I like making socks pretty well, but I prefer to do really intricate, small stuff like fancy cowls or mitts. They take up more time and use less yarn, making them really light. Gotta keep my base weight under 17 lbs, after all... :)
As for taking wool layers, I'm a fan. They perform about the same as synthetics, but they take much, much longer to get stinky and when they do, the smell washes out more thoroughly. I feel like this makes them more than worth the extra money on long treks. They're definitely a bit more expensive, but if you keep your eyes open on ebay or backcountry.com, you can find pretty good deals. I just bought a Smartwool LS, lightweight merino crew on ebay for $25.
KnittingMelissa
02-05-2010, 22:33
According to my wife knitting involves 2 needles; naalbinding uses just one needle. I think my mom called that crochet but wife she says its different.
Knitting is done with two straight needles, or 4-5 double pointed needles. Crochet is done with a single hook. Naalbinding is done with a needle.
While knitting is continuous live stitches, and crochet is a single live stitch, naalbinding is more akin to weaving as it is descended from fish net weaving. And it is sized on your thumb if you do it properly (several deviations have occurred over several hundred years, knitting and crocheting being amongst them).