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tintin
02-05-2010, 12:11
Despite several hiccups and a lot of worrying - my visa application was approved and I am free to enter the US for a period of up to 180 days. I'm delighted of course as thru-hiking the AT would have been an impossibility without one! The visa issue has been an adventure itself.

However, I was given a stern warning at the end,as the consul told me that one of his best friends was killed on the trail whilst hiking with a girlfriend?! Not exactly the best way to send me off. Usually they are more concerned that you have sufficient funds and plan to return to your country of origin, but he seemed more intent on knowing how I'd keep safe (guess it wouldn't look good if a foreigner got killed on the trail). I didn't question him on it as I just wanted to get the hell out of there in case they had a sudden change of mind!

All set to go now and can't wait. Went on a 16 mile walk yesterday and feel no effects today - no concerns left!

Hyway
02-05-2010, 12:22
Maybe his best friend was Governor Sanford and he meant "killed" figuratively rather than literally ;)

Dogwood
02-05-2010, 12:38
When you mention the trail I suppose you mean the AT. When you say the embassy I suppose you mean one in your country or the US in a large city.

A good dose of commonsense when it comes to personal safety is prudent anywhere you travel. But, also realize fears about hiking a trail in the U.S., especially from being harmed by someone else, are VERY MUCH OVERHYPED., especially by those unaware of statistics. Some of these fears are generated because folks generally fear what they don't understand or are not familiar with. I don't know what embassy you went to but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if more people were killed within 5 miles of the embassy in the last 5 yrs than were harmed on the roughly 2200 miles of the AT in the last 5 yrs.

Gray Blazer
02-05-2010, 12:41
On a visit to Soho, all the girls wanted to know if FL was really like Miami Vice.

Panzer1
02-05-2010, 12:57
However, I was given a stern warning at the end,as the consul told me that one of his best friends was killed on the trail whilst hiking with a girlfriend?!

Who was his friend/when was he killed?

Panzer

Gray Blazer
02-05-2010, 13:10
However, I was given a stern warning at the end,as the consul told me that one of his best friends was killed on the trail whilst hiking with a girlfriend?!

Yeah, don't go hiking with her!

emerald
02-05-2010, 13:39
http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/yoursafety.htm (http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/yoursafety.htm)

Blissful
02-05-2010, 13:47
Your safer on the trail then walking down the street or riding in a car. Just be sensible and have a good hike. And be sure to have a physical also before you start.

JAK
02-05-2010, 14:07
Maybe he was trying to trick you into telling him about all the weapons you will be carrying with you. ;)

JAK
02-05-2010, 14:09
Maybe it has to do with your trail name.
You secret agents guys can't be trusted, even the good guys. ;)

prain4u
02-05-2010, 15:27
Consider the following:

--More worshipers were murdered in U.S. churches in recent years than hikers were killed on/near the AT. However, I am guessing that embassy workers don't generally warn foreign visitors that church attendance puts someone at greater risk of violent death.

--More people were killed in U.S. bars, pubs and taverns than hikers were killed on/near the AT. However, we don't usually stay away from bars because of this.

--More students and teachers were killed at U.S. high schools than hikers were killed on/near the AT. We don't usually advise people to stay away from high schools.

--Within the past five years, many more college students were murdered on campuses than hikers were murdered on the AT. Yet, parents worry much more about their child hiking the AT than attending college.

--In 2007, 42 high school and college school students in the U.S. died from injuries sustained during cheerleading. We don't "sternly" warn people to not participate in cheerleading. (Parents who are afraid to let their daughters hike the AT wouldn't hesitate for a moment to let these same daughters become cheerleaders)

Hiking the AT is much safer than MANY activities that are traditionally considered "safe".

sasquatch2014
02-05-2010, 15:30
Consider the following:

--In 2007, 42 high school and college school students in the U.S. died from injuries sustained during cheerleading. We don't "sternly" warn people to not participate in cheerleading. (Parents who are afraid to let their daughters hike the AT wouldn't hesitate for a moment to let these same daughters become cheerleaders)

Hiking the AT is much safer than MANY activities that are traditionally considered "safe".

You didn't even go into the dangers from crazy cheerleader moms down in Texas.

JustaTouron
02-05-2010, 15:36
Hiking the AT is much safer than MANY activities that are traditionally considered "safe".

Problem with your stats is that more people attend church, go to high school, go to bars or cheer than hike the AT.

There are dangers inherent in hiking the AT. They are manageable and should not deter someone from going hiking, but they should not be trivialized either. The folks most likely to get themselves injured or killed are those who do not take the risks and threats seriously.

Old Grouse
02-05-2010, 15:42
Oh, and Tin Tin - in trail towns, don't forget to look LEFT when crossing the street!

Powder River
02-05-2010, 15:42
The guy has a point. Better pick up one of these:

http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/deserteagle.jpg

prain4u
02-05-2010, 23:02
Problem with your stats is that more people attend church, go to high school, go to bars or cheer than hike the AT.

There are dangers inherent in hiking the AT. They are manageable and should not deter someone from going hiking, but they should not be trivialized either. The folks most likely to get themselves injured or killed are those who do not take the risks and threats seriously.

I agree that people need to take all risks and all threats seriously. Hikers need to be aware of their surroundings and take appropriate precautions at all times.

That being said, the chances that you will be the victim of homicide on the AT are pretty small. If my numbers are correct, there were 10 homicides on the AT in the 35 year period between 1974-2009. That is a pretty small number when you consider that we are talking about a 2,100+ mile corridor through 14 States (and about 4 million people visit the AT each year).

Of those 10 murder victims, 7 were females and 3 were males. I believe just two of the victims were thru hikers (1 male and one female--victims of a "double murder"). Because some of the other deaths were also "double murders"--there were actually only 7 separate homicide "events" on the AT in 35 years.

Bottom Line: The chances of an AT thru hiker being the victim of a homicide are pretty minimal. In the past 35 years, there was one recorded incident of thru hikers being the victims of homicide. That one incident claimed two lives. Most towns in the U.S. can only dream of being that safe.

tintin
02-06-2010, 08:21
I'm not concerned - I was just unaware of any recent homicides on the AT (which is what he meant).

I was just relieved to get the visa as there has been a bit of a crack down on them. Even a delay in the decision could have thwarted 6 months of planning. It's just a relief and I can really start getting excited now!

Pedaling Fool
02-06-2010, 09:05
Be afraid, be very afraid:eek:







:sun

fiddlehead
02-06-2010, 10:49
These immigration guys like to scare people.
I wouldn't take his warning too seriously.
I've had them say strange stuff to me already.

I also remember the time we were waiting for one of our group at the border of NM/Mexico to start the CDT and had a few hours to kill there, the customs guys there got into showing off for us and i pitied the people crossing that had to put up with this.
They didn't know much of anything about the CDT and they were standing and working at the (arguably) the southern terminus. This was at Antelope Wells.

Captain Blue
02-06-2010, 11:05
In the past 35 years, there was one recorded incident of thru hikers being the victims of homicide. That one incident claimed two lives.

Don't forget about the murder of thru-hiker Janice Balza, age 22, in April 1975 at Vandeventer Shelter.

sasquatch2014
02-06-2010, 11:51
I'm not concerned - I was just unaware of any recent homicides on the AT (which is what he meant).

I was just relieved to get the visa as there has been a bit of a crack down on them. Even a delay in the decision could have thwarted 6 months of planning. It's just a relief and I can really start getting excited now!

Well you know we can't be too safe these days those of you from across the pond need to be looked at with a really close eye. Maybe your coming over here to see how to use the AT as a supply pathway for an invasion or something. He did give you your electronic ankle bracelet didn't he? I hope that it didn't add too much extra weight. The good thing is if you cross the wires you can also use it stun fish or as a bug zapper at night.:rolleyes:

DAJA
02-06-2010, 11:58
I'm surprised the gun lobby hasn't insisted in giving out guns with travel visas.

prain4u
02-06-2010, 12:32
Don't forget about the murder of thru-hiker Janice Balza, age 22, in April 1975 at Vandeventer Shelter.


Thanks for the correction. The list I looked at didn't list her as a thru hiker.

rickb
02-06-2010, 12:36
I believe just two of the victims were thru hikers

I believe five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT:


Molly LaRue
Geoffrey Hood,
Susan Ramsey
Robert Mountford,
Janice Balza

For every 2000 people who have registered as 2,000 milers, one thru hiker has been denied that opportunity because they were killed by a complete stranger on the course of their journey.

The AT is relatively safe, but JustaTouron's comments hit the nail on the head.

Manwich
02-06-2010, 13:33
Just avoid the south.

Nobody's been killed north of PA.

tintin
02-06-2010, 15:11
Well you know we can't be too safe these days those of you from across the pond need to be looked at with a really close eye. Maybe your coming over here to see how to use the AT as a supply pathway for an invasion or something. He did give you your electronic ankle bracelet didn't he? I hope that it didn't add too much extra weight. The good thing is if you cross the wires you can also use it stun fish or as a bug zapper at night.:rolleyes:

I thought the second amendment existed to deter us limey's from even conjuring such a plan ;)

We're not a danger to anyone these days. All the little kids that we used to bully are all grown up and are a lot bigger than us these days. It's those damn protein shakes that are to blame.

Reid
02-06-2010, 15:18
Just avoid the south.

Nobody's been killed north of PA.

Yea, I agree. You've got to be a man to hang around here.

Mags
02-06-2010, 17:11
Please, no more of the inane "the south is scary...carry a gun" discussions.

Thanks!

Appalachian Tater
02-06-2010, 17:18
I would be much more worried about catching Lyme disease than becoming a murder victim on the trail. Read up on it and learn the symptoms and how to remove ticks.

Old Hiker
02-06-2010, 17:28
[QUOTE=tintin;965030]

However, I was given a stern warning at the end,as the consul told me that one of his best friends was killed on the trail whilst hiking with a girlfriend?! QUOTE]

My brother's sister's cousin told me that if you speak with a funny accent, you may wind up in trouble on the AT. Of course, they are from Texas, so they speak funny anyway!

Oh, wait. So am I. Howdy, Tintin, ya'll have a great hike over yonder now, ya heah?

sasquatch2014
02-06-2010, 17:30
From what I have heard, and I won't give my sources because they are both completely unreliable as well as mostly made up, British terrorist have been using lymes as a biological weapon to try and force people out of the area so it will be easier when they attack along the ridges trying to separate out the original colonies. That is just what I heard. Seems extremely plausible and even somewhat probable. If you send me a PM I'll tell you what I know about the what evil plans the Canadians have in store for us.

Tuckahoe
02-06-2010, 17:34
I believe five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT:


Molly LaRue
Geoffrey Hood,
Susan Ramsey
Robert Mountford,
Janice Balza
For every 2000 people who have registered as 2,000 milers, one thru hiker has been denied that opportunity because they were killed by a complete stranger on the course of their journey.

The AT is relatively safe, but JustaTouron's comments hit the nail on the head.

Its seems to me that a lot of folks think that the AT is a magical place where crime doesnt happen. And to a certain point I guess that it true. Hikers as a whole from what I have experienced are good people and that the problem has been that evil intrudes upon the trail. But also, how much of what we assume to be a low crime rate is because a relatively small number of people actually use the trail (not necessarily taking into account high use areas such as SNP or GSMNP)?

But the AT is not imnune to crime and while we all dwell on murders, I would be interested in what the over all crime rate is.

I quoted rickb because he made the point that there is 1 murder to 2000 reported 2000 milers... What if that was taken out to # of murders per 100,000. How would that then actually compare to reported murder rates for moderate sized cities?

emerald
02-06-2010, 17:38
I would be much more worried about catching Lyme disease than becoming a murder victim on the trail. Read up on it and learn the symptoms and how to remove ticks.

A good place to start might be the Straight Forward WhiteBlaze thread Lyme Disease - How was Diagnosis Established? (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53884) It gathers much good information, but isn't completely SF and some posts are best ignored.

Appalachian Tater
02-06-2010, 17:51
I quoted rickb because he made the point that there is 1 muder to 2000 reported 2000milers... What if that was taken out to # of murders per 100,000. How would that then actually compare to reported murder rates for moderate sized cities?

Murder rates range from under 2 per 100,000 per year in places like Lincoln, Nebraska to over 60 per 100,000 per year in New Orleans. Thru-hikers aren't on the trail for a year so you could estimate 6 months and divide that murder rate of 50 by 2 to get 25 per 100,000 per year but it seems like a lot of estimating in the figures used to estimate.

Also, I'm not sure thru-hiker status is at all relevant to a murderer.

Of course you have a small chance of being murdered on the trail and the longer you are on it, the greater possibility that might happen.

Some crime happens on the trail because the victim behaves differently when hiking. I would never consider leaving my backpack propped up against the outside of a grocery store or restaurant where I live but hikers do it frequently. So of course, the chance of my backpack being stolen is much higher on the trail than at home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

Overall there are things to worry about that are much more likely to happen and much more preventable.

JustaTouron
02-06-2010, 17:53
Please, no more of the inane "the south is scary...carry a gun" discussions.

Thanks!


You are going about this all wrong. start selling ammo on pmags and promote the inane "the south is scary...carry a gun" discussions.

ed bell
02-06-2010, 20:15
I believe five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT:


Molly LaRue
Geoffrey Hood,
Susan Ramsey
Robert Mountford,
Janice Balza

For every 2000 people who have registered as 2,000 milers, one thru hiker has been denied that opportunity because they were killed by a complete stranger on the course of their journey.

The AT is relatively safe, but JustaTouron's comments hit the nail on the head.

A far more insightful calculation would be total homicides per total users. An estimate of 3 million visits per year was cited in this study: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/17393 Interesting study, btw, and not entirely a rosy picture depending on how you look at it.

The fact that 5 victims were aspiring thru hikers seems to be a tragic coincidence relative to the total number of homicides (which I am not aware of). I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the victims were not targeted because they were trying to hike the entire trail.

Wise Old Owl
02-06-2010, 20:34
I believe five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT:


Molly LaRue
Geoffrey Hood,
Susan Ramsey
Robert Mountford,
Janice Balza
For every 2000 people who have registered as 2,000 milers, one thru hiker has been denied that opportunity because they were killed by a complete stranger on the course of their journey.

The AT is relatively safe, but JustaTouron's comments hit the nail on the head.

The AT is unbelivably safe to travel, I am curious if Meridith was on a blue trail and if you included her and others how big would the list be? Thanks Rick B as I too am a news junkie,,,, I thing the Consul was mistaken or I would have asked in empathy for more details.

Jester2000
02-06-2010, 20:45
I quoted rickb because he made the point that there is 1 murder to 2000 reported 2000 milers... What if that was taken out to # of murders per 100,000. How would that then actually compare to reported murder rates for moderate sized cities?

I don't know that this would be relevant, unless the only users of the AT were thru-hikers. Millions of people use the trail every year, which makes the murder rate tiny.


A far more insightful calculation would be total homicides per total users. An estimate of 3 million visits per year was cited in this study: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/17393 Interesting study, btw, and not entirely a rosy picture depending on how you look at it . . .

Yeah, I don't know about that study. The conclusion they seem to draw is that security is an issue, when really what seems to be the case is that perception of security is what's being studied. I say that because when looking at even the small percentage where incidents were reported in the survey, an even smaller percentage of them seem to involve actual violence or theft or vandalism. Which leads me to believe that most of the survey reported security issues had more to do with what the study calls "inappropriate behavior" and even "people acting 'strangely.'"

This may be part of the reason why such a small percentage of the incidents reported in the survey were actually reported to authorities -- they made people feel insecure, but weren't actually criminal offenses.

Jester2000
02-06-2010, 20:49
This may be part of the reason why such a small percentage of the incidents reported in the survey were actually reported to authorities -- they made people feel insecure, but weren't actually criminal offenses.

. . . or may have been illegal, but not violent, i.e. ATVs on the trail (which I've encountered), or, say, drinking where it's not allowed (Maryland, State Gamelands in PA, etc.), or smoking pot on the trail.

ed bell
02-06-2010, 21:08
Yeah, I don't know about that study. The conclusion they seem to draw is that security is an issue, when really what seems to be the case is that perception of security is what's being studied. I say that because when looking at even the small percentage where incidents were reported in the survey, an even smaller percentage of them seem to involve actual violence or theft or vandalism. Which leads me to believe that most of the survey reported security issues had more to do with what the study calls "inappropriate behavior" and even "people acting 'strangely.'"

This may be part of the reason why such a small percentage of the incidents reported in the survey were actually reported to authorities -- they made people feel insecure, but weren't actually criminal offenses. I haven't read it through, but after a quick scan it looks like one of the conclusions is that folks tend to have their fears amplified by reading about problems and incidents on the trail. The author wants to infer that incidents are under reported, but how in the world can you document that? I really only linked to it because I was looking for a figure for the amount of unique users of the Appalachian trail per year.

weary
02-06-2010, 21:10
A far more insightful calculation would be total homicides per total users. An estimate of 3 million visits per year was cited in this study: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/17393 Interesting study, btw, and not entirely a rosy picture depending on how you look at it.

The fact that 5 victims were aspiring thru hikers seems to be a tragic coincidence relative to the total number of homicides (which I am not aware of). I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the victims were not targeted because they were trying to hike the entire trail.
I say, never trust a moderator, especially if he's either over, or less than, 30.

Weary

ed bell
02-06-2010, 22:08
I say, never trust a moderator, especially if he's either over, or less than, 30.

WearyA far more insightful comment would have dealt with what exactly you disagreed with in reference to my comment.

sasquatch2014
02-06-2010, 22:27
A far more insightful comment would have dealt with what exactly you disagreed with in reference to my comment.

Just like a mod to question everything. :eek: Just kidding don't block my account.

Captain Blue
02-06-2010, 22:57
Just avoid the south. Nobody's been killed north of PA.

Totem is right. Avoid the south. I'll add ... Avoid shelters and avoid murderers too.

weary
02-06-2010, 23:18
Just like a mod to question everything. :eek: Just kidding don't block my account.
I don't have anything against Ed, or most other moderators, for that matter. But there is one that from time to time bounces me from the site, or quashes my posts for what obviously must be frivolous reasons. Well, come on? They must be frivolous reasons, because I wouldn't have written what I did otherwise. Would I? :-? :) :sun

Come on now. Nothing but the truth

Weary

weary
02-06-2010, 23:21
Totem is right. Avoid the south. I'll add ... Avoid shelters and avoid murderers too.
Well. I like shelters, especially when there is an empty space I can squeeze into on a rainy night. But I certainly hate murderers, as everyone should, at least I think so.

Jester2000
02-07-2010, 00:40
I haven't read it through, but after a quick scan it looks like one of the conclusions is that folks tend to have their fears amplified by reading about problems and incidents on the trail. The author wants to infer that incidents are under reported, but how in the world can you document that? I really only linked to it because I was looking for a figure for the amount of unique users of the Appalachian trail per year.

Gotcha.

I'd like to get a look at the survey they actually used, which doesn't seem to be available. Their conclusions about under reporting seem to come from the fact that there's a disparity between what was reported to them as opposed to what was reported to authorities at the time of the incident.

But their survey seems to solicit an "insecure" response even if the person wasn't actually threatened in any way, such as there being horses on the trail, or someone being inebriated. That people don't report things like that isn't all that surprising. If the study had concentrated on actual violent crime it might be significant, but that doesn't seem to be the case.