View Full Version : Stevia and whey protein
aldredheron
02-18-2010, 23:47
Natural Edge has a Fructose Free whey protein that is solely sweetened with Stevia.
It mixes smooth and tastes great! Mix it with juices for even more great taste!
Fructose bad, I agree. But why do you want a sugar substitute on hiking food? Calories good. Complex carbs doubleplus good, yes, but sugar is a staple on the trail, no?
Most protein powders have artificial sweeteners to improve the ratio of protein to calories. The only protein powder I've seen without an (artificial) sweetener is custom blend stuff, which can usually be quite expensive. I can totally understand how people will accept the presense of artificial sweeteners due to cost savings even if they intend to add high calorie sweeteners on their own.
Ok, as an alternative to artificial sweeteners, I would certainly choose stevia.
I guess I'm just not keen on these protein powders in the first place. Very highly manufactured and not really a food-like substance. Then you add some patented sweetener... Not nice, in my book.
I'd prefer something like yellow lentils, which cook very easily and make a nice soup or porridge. In fact, with lentils, rice, oil and a handful of flavorful herbs, you can survive for a lifetime, very cheap and very tasty too.
Supposedly stevia tastes horrible, but if you are okay with the taste, then go for it. For me I'll stick with sucralose as an artificial sweetener, but if I had to pick a sugar, I'd go with dextrose. If I was just looking for calories and taste no matter the form, I think I'd go with some type of oat muscle or EFA. Actually, both together may be best since a combination of carbs and fat almost always encourages a lot of consumption, which is very helpful on a thru-hike.
Maybe there is some need for protein powders. I don't see or understand all the angles one can come from with protein, but I do think some place too much emphasis on protein for the avg person here in the U.S. We don't live in a country where most of its citizens have a problem getting the protein their bodies require. If anything, Americans consume more protein than needed. I'm a bit ignorant about this but I would think protein is vitally important during younger formative yrs and when building muscle mass. Considering that children in the U.S. get about 6 g of protein a day and that serves them well I don't understand all of the push for adult Americans to be consuming upwards of 100 g of protein per day.
Again, I'm a bit ignorant about this but if one is to seek protein what is wrong with getting it from real whole natural food like:
I'd prefer something like yellow lentils, which cook very easily and make a nice soup or porridge. In fact, with lentils, rice, oil and a handful of flavorful herbs, you can survive for a lifetime, very cheap and very tasty too
Is there something wrong with this protein source for those living an avg American lifestyle? Is it too simple and easy this way?
And, since I'm not aware of the amino acid profile of this lentil and rice dish, and it may lack some essential aminos, what about getting those other aminos from other natural whole foods?
Stevia takes some getting used to. It simply is not what were used to thinking of as what typifies what is sweet in America. It almost has a slightly bittersweet aftertaste to me.
Leaftye, I'm not understanding this.
Most protein powders have artificial sweeteners to improve the ratio of protein to calories.
Am I having brain fog?
Maybe there is some need for protein powders. I don't see or understand all the angles one can come from with protein, but I do think some place too much emphasis on protein for the avg person here in the U.S. We don't live in a country where most of its citizens have a problem getting the protein their bodies require.
Do people get incredibly sore muscles when they first start the trail? Are their legs much thicker and muscular at the end of the trail?
The body is trying to adapt to do what you're forcing it to do. The emphasis on protein, especially in the early part of the trail, is to help the body adjust. Also, for those in caloric deficit, which is probably the vast majority, protein helps prevent muscle loss from lesser used muscles.
Also, protein is best when consumed in many smaller servings instead of few large servings, and protein shakes make this easier. I put one scoop in my [26 oz] bottle and find that I'm still pissing clear, so I'm getting the protein benefit and still getting adequately hydrated.
By using protein shakes, it simplifies my selection of food and snack choices. Instead of looking for something that's well rounded, I can look for food with the highest number of calories. When resupply locations are closer together, I can shift the focus towards greens and tastiness.
Now for the AT, protein shakes may be a little extreme seeing as how you guys have such frequent resupply locations. You guys can literally and easily carry meat and cheese for most of your hiking miles, and because you can resupply often, the weight of your food choices isn't as big of an issue.
Leaftye, I'm not understanding this.
Most protein powders have artificial sweeteners to improve the ratio of protein to calories.
Am I having brain fog?
You are having a brain fog? I'm not sure what the question is here. If you don't understand why protein powder manufacturers favor a high protein to calorie ratio, you should only have to look at the labels of many of these products to see why. Most of these products are catered to those seeking to build lean muscle. Sure, some people want the calories, but since most people use this at home where it's easy to find calories, why add it to the protein powder?
Now if you want a protein powder blend for hikers, then get a custom blend with protein, flavoring, oat muscle for carbs, EFA for fats. The oat muscle and EFA are tasty, so you shouldn't need any other sweeteners. You can also get vitamins mixed in if you wanted.
I've recently come to possess a kefir culture. Kefir is a pro-biotic that "preserves" milks
without heating the milk as yogurt.
It is quite tasty, pretty much the same as yogurt.
For a smoothie I use kefir, blueberries, hemp hearts, and honey (8:2:2:1 by weight)
The hemp hearts (the seed kernel of hemp seed) are a great source of proteins, Omega-3 & -6, etc
By purchasing the HHearts in bulk (http://hempoil.tng-secure.com/categories.php?category=Hulled-Hemp-Seeds), I think it's cheaper than processed alternatives.
I think the HHearts end up at 75 cents per 42g serving
take-a-knee
02-19-2010, 12:55
Yes Dogwood, you are a "bit ignorant" about protein requirements. Most thru hikes end in VA. They end mostly because of connective tissue problems. shin splints. and reduced immune function. All three are exacerbated by a negative nitrogen balance, IE, insufficient protein consumption.
The american diet is high carb, sure lentils are better than pasta, a diet of this sort of stuff just means most folks won't get type II diabetes quite as fast, but it'll come.
Dr Barry Sears' Zone Diet is the only diet that will control hormones in a healthy manner.
LOL. Take a Knee, I knew if someone started a diet/nutrition thread you and I would probably be posting at some pt. What diet plan are you promoting this week?
Leaftye, we're not entirely on the same page. I understand we need protein. I think I understand, at least in some part, the role of protein. I can even understand why we sometimes place an emphasis on protein at times. I understand the role of protein on a hike. What I don't understand is the OVER emphasis of protein. It seems there is TOO MUCH emphasis on protein. See, I highlighted certain words? They are important adjectives that connect with and give the noun "emphasis" a specific meaning.
Although there can be good cause under certain conditions, I notice all sorts of problems that sometimes develop when we put an over emphasis over one food component over another.
What I gather you are saying, is that you consume a protein shake because it makes your food selection easier, more convenient. You get all or a large part of pour protein in one rather easy to carry and make meal. I get that. That works for a lot of people, including myself at times. For example, I'll add a little hemp protein into my morning oatmeal while on the trail. This provides SOME of my protein requirements. I now understand where you are coming from.
.....I can look for food with the highest number of calories. I assume you mean one food source with a high number of protein cals or cals coming from protein.
If you were seeking one food source with the highest number of cals in terms of wt carried on a hike than the obvious choice would be to consume a fat. That would save food wt by providing the highest number of cals per oz(gram) but certainly not providing balanced nutrition and not providing all the things a body needs if solely consuming fats for cals.
I watch what thru-hikers are eating. I ask questions about what they are eating on their thru-hikes. What I notice, is that hikers who do complete their hikes, most often are not consuming protein drinks for protein. Instead, the majority seem to be getting their total protein requirements from a combination of different food sources. Just an observation.
It seems you are inferring a hiker will carry meat and cheese to satisfy protein requirements. Some hikers do just that for that reason. Yes, resupply opps are often frequent enough on the AT that it's possible to get meat and cheese quite readily. BUT, those are not the only sources of protein. Some get the protein their bodies require without having to eat animal products(I'm NOT trying to turn this into an Vegan or Vegetarian or anti-meat eating post). Some get their full range of amino acids(the building blocks of protein) from a variety of food sources. Sometimes those food sources are non animal food products. Hence, GGS2 's lentil and brown rice recipe that does provide SOME protein, as well as complex carbs, some good fats, if adding Olive Oil, vitamins, enzymes, and a host of other nutrients.
Most protein powders have artificial sweeteners to improve the ratio of protein to calories.
Perhaps, I'm still having a brain fart. What I'm not getting about this statement is how artificial sweeteners are improving the ratio of protein to cals. It seems to me, artificial sweeteners are added to protein powders not for improving this ratio but to make the protein powders sweeter tasting! After tasting some protein powders, I can see why they do this.
I'm willing to admit I'm ignorant about some things. I don't know all things and none of us do so to some extent I guess we are all ignorant in some area. I suppose that's the first step in overcoming ignorances - knowing we are all ignorant to some extent, knowing that we don't know it all.
Eat real food. Avoid food like substances.
See, I highlighted certain words?
I don't see any highlight, bold, or italicized words. I do see your point on "over" emphasis, but when putting together a diet for a thru hike, especially a thru hike where resupply points are far apart, can or should any part of a meal plan receive too much emphasis?
It seems you are inferring a hiker will carry meat and cheese to satisfy protein requirements.
My point was that AT hikers don't need to try as hard to have good meals that result in a good diet.
Perhaps, I'm still having a brain fart. What I'm not getting about this statement is how artificial sweeteners are improving the ratio of protein to cals. It seems to me, artificial sweeteners are added to protein powders not for improving this ratio but to make the protein powders sweeter tasting! After tasting some protein powders, I can see why they do this.
Any sweetener is added to improve taste, or to my protein powders sweeter tasting as you've said. Artificial sweeteners are used when they wish to do this without adding calories.
Ugh, I can't really explain why a high protein-to-calorie ratio is desirable without practically writing an essay. Let's just say you were lifting weights, but also trying to cut fat at the same time. If you found a protein powder with the same amount of protein per scoop, would you want the one with 120 calories per scoop or 150 calories per scoop, all else equal? I'll let you figure out which one has the artificial sweetener.
As for me, I prefer an artificial sweetener if any sweetener is prepackaged with my protein powder. This is because I occasionally will be using my protein powder when I'm cutting weight hard, and I don't need or want the calories of sugar. While I'd prefer my artificial sweetener to be packaged separately so I can add however much I desire, this is more expensive. Sometimes much more expensive since even custom blenders still add artificial sweetener for free...and if they provide an option for a sugar sweetener, that costs extra.
Yes Dogwood, you are a "bit ignorant" about protein requirements. Most thru hikes end in VA. They end mostly because of connective tissue problems. shin splints. and reduced immune function. All three are exacerbated by a negative nitrogen balance, IE, insufficient protein consumption.
The american diet is high carb, sure lentils are better than pasta, a diet of this sort of stuff just means most folks won't get type II diabetes quite as fast, but it'll come.
Dr Barry Sears' Zone Diet is the only diet that will control hormones in a healthy manner.The Dr.Barry Sears Zone diet is generally good, but is over generallized. I doubt that even Dr. Sears intended for it to be applied so religiously.
When not losing weight, 10-15/30-45/40-60 is better for hiking. Generally speaking a 1:3 ratio of protien:carbs is good for hiking. If gaining muscle, a 1:2 ratio could be used, and that can still be very easily satisfied using a balanced diet of real food. When losing weight, by using excess fat reserves, you should reduce the fat while maintaining the ratio of the other two. When not losing weight, as in long distance hiking, the fat may well need to exceed 40%. Depending on activity levels, and whether or not you are losing body fat, and/or building muscle, the 30/40/30 ratio is not always optimal. His 30/40 protien/carb ratio is excessive in protien, for most activities. His fixed amount of fats at 40% is too high when burning body fat, and too low when not losing body fat and doing large amounts of low intensity activity like hiking 10 hours a day.
Oats + Dairy is high enough protien a hiking diet.
Oats + Nuts/Seeds is high enough protien a hiking diet.
Oats + Lentils is also high enough protien a hiking diet.
The lentils don't have to be consumed with the oats.
Some jerky is good, and can allow more dried fruit in the diet.
If a diet requires protien supplements, or any supplements it isn't a good diet.
You should eat real food, and avoid food like substitutes.
JAK that may be the shortest post you ever made! Are you hung over today? :)
I usually like it when you make posts on the same thread as me because it often makes my longwinded posts seem short by comparison! :)
Thanks for replying Leaftye. I get you now! I understand where you are coming from. I can see clearly now that the rain, and fog, is gone. It's going to be a bright bright bright sun shiny day!
I need to hike!
And, ouila, before I can get my post up on the thread, JAK so eloquently proves my pt. :)
You are a good man JAK. Don't hate me! ;)
If you have access to fresh game or fish, a higher protien:carb ratio is certainly justified.
Traditional non-agrarian diets can be as high as 30:10:60 in P:C:F,or even lower in carbs.
Traditional non-agrarian diets could also be higher in carbs, when they were available.
I don't have a problem with 30% protien, if 30% means 100g, even 150g some days.
I do have a problem with 30% of 6000 = 450g/day. That is excessive for hiking.
Why put your kidneys through all that extra work for no good reason?
I doubt very much that Dr. Sears would recommend that anyone should consume 450g of protien per day when hiking 10 hours a day for 100 days.
All generalizations fail, although they are still useful.
Yes Dogwood, you are a "bit ignorant" about protein requirements. Most thru hikes end in VA. They end mostly because of connective tissue problems. shin splints. and reduced immune function. ...
These problems are mostly due to chronic under use and degeneration of these organs. A minority are probably due to over use degeneration and such diseases as osteoarthritis, and so on. Traditional dietary prescriptions for such maladies are generally high protein preparations of cartilage and connective tissue. The modern version of this could be protein drinks, glucosamine sulfate, MSM and chondroitin. etc. Understood.
However, the mere prescription of these substances as dietary supplements is unlikely to cure the underlying problem, is it? More likely the change of activity has to demand the change of physiology. A thru hike creates such a demand, but generally much too rapidly.
Now, I do get that protein supps may help in particular stress situations, but I think it is probably wrong to think of them as foods. The best prescription is probably a gradual increase in activity over a period of a couple of months or even longer, accompanied by protein as required by the body. Best source would be various natural protein sources (least adulteration).
IFF this is the correct analysis/diagnosis, what is the best advice for through hikers who place multiple stresses on proteinacious organs far too rapidly and deeply? Aside from the obvious (train up before leaving, go slow until your body tells you it is ok, lighten your load as much as feasible, eat well including enough food protein, etc.), what to do? It is easy to prescribe protein drinks and supplements and the ubiquitous vitamin I, but I suspect that this will do little to prevent the problems. The solutions lie deeper in the physiology. As deep as the brain, in most cases.
I think the single best piece of advice might be go slow, and start even slower. There are two ways to do this: One is to do fewer trail hours, and the other is to go for long, slow distance (LSD as we used to call it). I practice the latter until my body gives me the green light to go faster. I used to do it the other way around and got frequent, chronic tendinitis. If you use up the daylight while going slowly, you can still cover quite a lot of ground, and remain healthy. If you get sore, rest. The trail doesn't mind.
If it matters, I am a rather sedentary 64 year old male. I wish I had more leisure to practice what I preach.
take-a-knee
02-19-2010, 17:29
I doubt very much that Dr. Sears would recommend that anyone should consume 450g of protien per day when hiking 10 hours a day for 100 days.
All generalizations fail, although they are still useful.
Of course not. Dr Sear's Zone Diet recommends protein consumption based on your body weight (or more accurately your lean body mass). You need somewhere between 0.5 grams and ONE gram per pound. Just use bodyweight to simplifiy this. If you weigh 200lb and are sedentary, that would be 100 grams daily divided into 4-5 meals/snacks. (An average adult requires 30 grams/daily to maintain proper blood circulation). If you are a Navy SEAL or an MMA fighter in training, you likely need one gram per pound. A thru hiker MIGHT need that much, I don't know. How do we know how much we need? If you are losing lean body mass, you aren't consuming enough. This is easy to tell if you are lifting, your lift numbers/poundage will drop. On the trail, I don't have an answer. If you consume more protein than this per meal, it just gets turned to fat, so no "450 grams" per day for 100 days required.
The gist of the Zone Diet is to consume protein/carbs on a fairly precise ratio, 3:4 (protein/carbs). This should look familiar to body builders, it is the same 30/30/40 diet they reccomended decades ago.
It is given that if you don't eat anything, you'll be dead in 40-50 days. If you hike for 40-50 days carrying a pack up and down mountains, and subsist off of processed shiite, thereby sabotaging your body's attempts to recover, why should anyone be suprised when they are unable to continue? The fact that many do make it all the way on "Little Debbies" testifies only to youth and human resilience.
take-a-knee
02-19-2010, 17:39
If you have access to fresh game or fish, a higher protien:carb ratio is certainly justified.
Traditional non-agrarian diets can be as high as 30:10:60 in P:C:F,or even lower in carbs.
Traditional non-agrarian diets could also be higher in carbs, when they were available.
I don't have a problem with 30% protien, if 30% means 100g, even 150g some days.
I do have a problem with 30% of 6000 = 450g/day. That is excessive for hiking.
Why put your kidneys through all that extra work for no good reason?
You are correct, that is excessive. Let say your caloric requirement was 200 g protein daily, that would be 800 cal. Zone Diet parameters would require 266 g carbs to "Zone" that amount of protein for proper hormonal (insulin/glucagon) control. That would be 1066 cal plus 800 for a total of 1866. The balance should be fat, preferably unsaturated or monosaturated.
There is a downside/danger of too much protein. It can trash you kidneys, this is another reason to drink half your bodyweight in ounces of water daily. IE, you weigh 200#, drink 100 ounces daily, in addition to any sweat replacement from workouts.
.....unlikely to cure the underlying problem....
Now, here is someone who understands there is a difference in treating or masking symptoms and treating or addressing the cause. TOO MUCH ADDRESSING OF SYMPTOMS BY TRADITIONALLY WESTERN TRAINED MDs RATHER THAN TREATING THE CAUSE(S)
Oh, you are from Canada too! What a surprise!
I have had to rely on protein shakes due to a stomach issue. When on trail I have been lucky enough to be healthy enough to use more traditional regular food. I also use Stevia at home but also being a diabetic on trail I tend to use regular sugar items. The one thing I have found that works well for Stevia on trail is with the water treatments ie iodine, there are flavored Stevieas in small bottles that just an eye dropper full will do a good job of flavoring the waters to get rid of the iodine or treated water taste down and the bottles are small enough to fit in my spice kit. As far as whey protein goes I have found the “show me the whey” protein powder to be about the best and I believe that is fructose free. “show me the whey” protein powder is sold in many health food stores and co-ops often under a private label name. Whey protein powder due to international demand has really skyrocketed in price. I would be curious to the try the whey/ stevia product first mentioned by Aldredheron if any one has a link.
I have to say as I have had to deal with lots of health and nutrition issues beyond on trail I did enjoy all the discussion of protein needs as well as the zone diet.