View Full Version : Poles vs Staff
KnittingMelissa
02-24-2010, 23:25
I know a lot of long distance hikers use poles, but I was wondering what the difference between a pole and a staff was. I intend to bring one or the other (I'm leaning toward a good hiking staff, I'm more familiar with them, and I know where to get a good one), but a lot of people seem really solid on hiking poles, and I was curious to hear more about them.
Cool AT Breeze
02-24-2010, 23:41
The biggest thing about treking poles is the straps. When used correctly you can push off with each step taking the weight of your pack off your feet knees and hips.
Red Beard
02-25-2010, 00:03
The good thing about a staff is there is less of a chance it will collapse on you. The nice thing about poles is that if you only want to use one, or none, they collapse, and go in your pack easily. If you go for poles I highly recommend ones with a "flick lock" as opposed to the twist lock used in most Leki poles. I've got the knee surgery to prove how little faith I have in twist lock mechanisms.
Commercial hiking staffs tend to be too heavy, which is why I make my own. I wouldn't buy anything that weighs more than 12 ounces. I aim for 9 ounces. A natural sapling, with just the bark removed, is remarkably strong -- stronger than any hiking pole I've seen. Look for something around 3/4th inch in diameter if you want a wooden staff.
If you go with a "Natural" staff, I suggest finding a cane or crutch tip for the bottom end. It is amazing, how fast a wood tip can wear down, even on "soft" dirt. One of my favorite day hiking sticks is locust (a VERY hard wood) & is well seasoned, yet it is about 3" shorter than when I initially made it. Most of my wood sticks also have a nail driven in (after a small pilot hole is drilled to prevent splitting) to add wear resistance if (when?) I lose the tip.
I still prefer my ski poles for longer hikes, mostly because of the straps as mentioned above. I don't have to actually hold on to the poles.
It takes a little more time to get used to using two poles. I used a stick found in the woods for years and got by fine. I can tell folks who are new at the hiking (trekking) pole thing - they don't seem to know exactly what to do with two at once, and sometimes end up tripping over them or getting them stuck in the bushes that crowd the trail in many places.
You're only 25, so you shouldn't need (although LW would tell you that no one needs - and he's right, if the emphasis is on the word "needs") hiking poles. They just make things a little easier on your legs (knees, especially) on the ups and downs. They don't really help that much on smooth, level trail (stream crossing excepted).
skinewmexico
02-25-2010, 01:33
After years of skiing, two hiking poles were really natural. And I agree, using the straps properly makes all the difference in the world. As far as staffs, Luxurylite makes an interesting looking one.
The biggest thing about treking poles is the straps. When used correctly you can push off with each step taking the weight of your pack off your feet knees and hips.
I think they might help with balance, but your legs still carry the weight. I have a hard time believing your arms and poles carry any significant amount of weight.
I'm not a long distance hiker. I don't use poles, like my hands free. I'd start without them.
KnittingMelissa
02-25-2010, 02:19
If you go with a "Natural" staff, I suggest finding a cane or crutch tip for the bottom end. It is amazing, how fast a wood tip can wear down, even on "soft" dirt. One of my favorite day hiking sticks is locust (a VERY hard wood) & is well seasoned, yet it is about 3" shorter than when I initially made it. Most of my wood sticks also have a nail driven in (after a small pilot hole is drilled to prevent splitting) to add wear resistance if (when?) I lose the tip.
Actually, what I find works best (from experience over many, many years) is a tin can (usually pineapple for some odd reason). You just take the lid once it's been cut off, bend it around the tip, and tape it into place with electrical tape. Works wonders, stays on, protects the tip, and doesn't fall off even when in very, very wet conditions (such as heavy rain, snow, sleet, submerged in river to help cross, etc).
I'm thinking of getting a persimmon or dogwood staff. I enjoy a good piece of driftwood, but there are no places nearby for wood to drift to me, so I got lucky and found a seller on etsy.
trailangelbronco
02-25-2010, 02:21
Poles come in handy if you get in a fight with someone carrying a staff. boom boom vs boom.
I like a wooden hiking staff for hiking, or nothing.
I use two poles for skiing.
LimpsAlong
02-25-2010, 08:19
I use a staff like this... http://www.trackspoles.com/walking_hiking.asp?Action=SherliteStaff
It has a removable walnut knob with a camera mount underneath. Good hand strap and removeable rubber foot with a spike.
Good for taking solo pics of yourself.
bigcranky
02-25-2010, 08:43
Two hiking poles can take a surprising amount of the load off your legs and knees, especially on steep downhill segments. Sure, it's only for a split second as you plant the pole, but those split seconds add up. (See "rest step" in mountaineering.) On an uphill, the poles help me keep a steady pace and push a little harder. On any trail, they help with balance on slippery rocks, stream crossing, etc. I wouldn't hike the AT without them.
That said, when we hike the Florida Trail next week, I'm taking my Tracks staff. I won't need the help on those big climbs :rolleyes:, and I can use the staff for a monopod, or to fend off crazy raccoons.
Trailbender
02-25-2010, 09:15
I use a cedar staff I found in the woods hiking. It weighs a couple of pounds, but really helped me on my section hike last year.
Why use two poles
Balance, Support, Propulsion.
Trekking pole users take 6% fewer footsteps per mile!
longer, more relaxes stride, no hestition onups and downs.
ymmv. usually more.
85% of thru hiker finishers have two poles!
The Leki Super Lock is THE strongest, but requires righty tighty lefty loosey skills :rolleyes:
The new Leki Speedlock fixes the issues with the fliclock (strength) but as with all external locks, no functional shock ...yet.
but the Speedlock is sexy!
squirrel bait
02-25-2010, 10:01
I still use a staff made out of Pacific Madrone, tough as can be. Knitting Melissa, What kind of driftwood you looking for? Some thing to make a hiking staff out of? I'll watch in my travels up and down the beach for ya. No cost, just shipping.
Let's see . . . how many poles vs. sticks threads does this make now? With the same variety of pros/cons . . .
DrRichardCranium
02-25-2010, 13:20
I use trekking poles. After all the cross-country skiiing I did in my teens & twenties, that two-pole action comes very naturally to me.
KnittingMelissa
02-25-2010, 14:14
Knitting Melissa, What kind of driftwood you looking for? Some thing to make a hiking staff out of? I'll watch in my travels up and down the beach for ya. No cost, just shipping.
Hahaha, only if you send my dad with it! I'm afraid he got all the carving skill in the family. My apartment, sadly, just isn't setup to finish and seal any sort of wood, but thank you for the offer. :sun
AeroGuyDC
02-25-2010, 14:55
I don't own trekking poles (yet) so I can't opine on the overall benefit; but, I have tried out a basic wooden hiking staff and I immediately recognized the extra energy expended just by having to grip the staff harder in order to keep it where you wanted it. That being said, I'm of the opinion that trekking poles with the contoured grips are the much better option from an energy burned standpoint.
Jester2000
02-25-2010, 15:14
I used to hike using a staff. Now I use poles. Some benefits:
-- Better for maintaining balance. Sure, you only need 3 legs to make a table, but four is more stable.
-- Don't need to constantly grip the poles. Properly worn straps mean that I'm hardly ever really gripping the poles, the way I had to with a staff -- even one with a lanyard.
-- Better for maintaining a rhythm, for me at least. I find that the poles are useful for me even when not going up or downhill, in that with two poles it's easier for me to maintain a hiking rhythm. This may not be all that important to others.
-- Blood doesn't pool in my hands. When I hike without poles or even with one staff, blood seems to pool in my hands, making them feel fat and uncomfortable. I have to switch hands with one staff, usually to my non-dominant hand. When I hike without anything I have to look my hands in my shoulder straps or hike with my hands raised for a while. Doesn't happen at all with two poles. Maybe I'm the only person this happens to.
-- Collapsible, which is actually important to me. Sometimes I hike places where using my hands is helpful.
I used to hike using a staff. Now I use poles. Some benefits:
-- Better for maintaining balance. Sure, you only need 3 legs to make a table, but four is more stable.
-- Don't need to constantly grip the poles. Properly worn straps mean that I'm hardly ever really gripping the poles, the way I had to with a staff -- even one with a lanyard.
-- Better for maintaining a rhythm, for me at least. I find that the poles are useful for me even when not going up or downhill, in that with two poles it's easier for me to maintain a hiking rhythm. This may not be all that important to others.
-- Blood doesn't pool in my hands. When I hike without poles or even with one staff, blood seems to pool in my hands, making them feel fat and uncomfortable. I have to switch hands with one staff, usually to my non-dominant hand. When I hike without anything I have to look my hands in my shoulder straps or hike with my hands raised for a while. Doesn't happen at all with two poles. Maybe I'm the only person this happens to.
-- Collapsible, which is actually important to me. Sometimes I hike places where using my hands is helpful.
A well made staff does not preclude using a strap. I mostly thru hiked without a strap. But a new version I assembled three years or so ago uses a Komperbell hand grip and strap.
The big advantage of a staff is that it costs very little, provides stability, and leaves one hand free for grasping trees occasionally, and for easier and more rapid picture taking.
Weary
Jester2000
02-25-2010, 17:05
The only advantages I can see as far as a staff goes is that it's cheaper, and has fewer parts that could break.
Letting go of a hiking pole to grab a tree or take a picture just involves letting go of it. You could even, I suppose, let go of both of them and grab a tree with one hand while taking a picture with the other. It stays attached to you by the strap.
slowandlow
02-25-2010, 17:12
Using two poles is like having four wheel drive.
The only advantages I can see as far as a staff goes is that it's cheaper, and has fewer parts that could break.
Letting go of a hiking pole to grab a tree or take a picture just involves letting go of it. You could even, I suppose, let go of both of them and grab a tree with one hand while taking a picture with the other. It stays attached to you by the strap.
Well, based on all the reports I read on White Blaze, I would suggest another advantage of a staff is that it results in far fewer falls. I've hiked many thousands of miles while carrying a staff and have only fallen once. Can pole users make that claim?
Weary
Jester2000
02-25-2010, 17:42
Well, based on all the reports I read on White Blaze, I would suggest another advantage of a staff is that it results in far fewer falls. I've hiked many thousands of miles while carrying a staff and have only fallen once. Can pole users make that claim?
Weary
Logical fallacy. Lacks proof of causation. If you want to find out if this is true, you could get a pair of poles and hike thousands of miles on the same terrain with them and compare results.
You may just be a careful walker; it's possible that people using poles are less careful because of them. And you may have done just as well with poles. My poles have saved me from many bad falls, and it's possible that a staff would have too.
I have noticed that poles seem to do markedly better as far as balance goes when I hike in strong, shifting wind. The wind never paid attention to which hand I had my staff in, or if it did, it never cooperated.
When I hiked with a staff, I occasionally fell -- usually to my left, because I almost always held my staff in my right hand. More recently, I fell down three times in 2008 on the PCT. All three times I was carrying both poles in my left hand (not using them at all).
LimpsAlong
02-25-2010, 17:54
I've hiked many thousands of miles while carrying a staff and have only fallen once. Can pole users make that claim?
Weary
Of course they can't ! Know why? Pole users are of satan!
LimpsAlong
02-25-2010, 17:56
BTW, I fall, on average, once every 20-30 miles. I use a staff. I fall cause I'm tired.
Poles vs. Staff is the new version of Cokes vs. Pepsi
:banana.
I used poles yesterday...of course I was on skis, though...
Then again, old school Norskis would ski with a single lurk (http://www.ehow.com/how_14603_lurk-telemark-skiing.html)
Lets add that into the poles vs. staff discussion... ;)
garlic08
02-25-2010, 18:34
Then again, old school Norskis would ski with a single lurk (http://www.ehow.com/how_14603_lurk-telemark-skiing.html)
I always knew you were a closet lurker.
I always knew you were a closet lurker.
http://www.juxtaposecreative.com/samples_htmlemail/ATA-EmailBlast1-lk/images/head.jpg
I am partial to the staff.
When I was 7 years old and walking around in the Sierra's I usually found a stick that helped me get around. You establish a walking rythm and then get in the habit of switching the stick to the opposite hand in mid-stride without affecting your momentum. It's amazing how you get attached to your favorite stick. When it breaks, you start all over again.
They didn't have Leki's and such in those days. When I started hiking again I did look in the woods for a good waliking stick, but didn't find one that was the correct fit (or it broke easily). I eventually found a site in Alaska that sold diamond willow hiking sticks of various thicknesses and lengths. Then I spent a couple of hours (or more) figuring out what length it should be in addition to imagining the grip. When I figured it out I bought one. I love it.
For the material I would recommend Manzanita wood from California (it's really hard wood) or Diamond Willow from Alaska.
I guess the Leki's and such are OK but the strap length (and width) is really important to me. The walking stick provides a little bit more flexibility to the user in fitting a strap.
As stupid a it may sound, I have to add that the walking stick becomes your trusted friend rather than an artificial extension of your body.
I started out with a stick, carved on it, became attached to it sentimentally, then forgot to take it on a hike and discovered I liked hiking better without it, swinging my arms. For the better part of my 37 years of backpacking, I used nothing!
Then about three years ago I decided to give trekking poles a try after hiking with a partner who used them and swore by them. All I can say is I wish I had discovered them sooner. The benefits are awesome (when the straps are used properly). Those who've never tried them or tried them without proper use of the straps can say whatever they want. I agree completely with Jester2000's post #21!
I started out with a stick, carved on it, became attached to it sentimentally, then forgot to take it on a hike and discovered I liked hiking better without it, swinging my arms. For the better part of my 37 years of backpacking, I used nothing!
Then about three years ago I decided to give trekking poles a try after hiking with a partner who used them and swore by them. All I can say is I wish I had discovered them sooner. The benefits are awesome (when the straps are used properly). Those who've never tried them or tried them without proper use of the straps can say whatever they want. I agree completely with Jester2000's post #21!
I have to admit that I haven't given the poles a fair test. I've only tried them in the stores.
So, based on the ones that have the "dual" experience I will withdraw my judgement until I gain a better understanding.
http://www.climber.org/TripReports/images/1400/1432-DelOnAnotherDifficultRockHoppingCrossing.jpg (http://www.climber.org/TripReports/images/1400/1432-DelOnAnotherDifficultRockHoppingCrossing.jpg)
Accident Report Form submitted to Accidents in North American Mountaineering
Report submitted by Ed Lulofs, 1195-4 W Calle De Las Estrellas, Azusa, CA
91702, elulofs at yahoo.com. (http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l) I was there.
Date of Accident: July 16, 2004
Geographic Location: Rundle glacier outwash stream, Owl River, Baffin
Island, Auyuittuq National Park, Canada's Nunavut.
Names (or use a number) and ages of person directly involved:
Del Hildebrand Age: 61
Ed Lulofs Age: 51
Total Number of Persons in Party or Class: 2
Details of the Accident: Lost footing crossing fast icy stream with heavy
pack. Failed to discard pack in the water. Dragged through 1/2 km of
rapids. CPR failed to revive. Probable drowning, possible concussion or
broken neck.
Experience Level: [ ] none or little ( 1st year) [X] moderate (1-3 years)
[ ] experienced [ ] other
Narrative Description of Accident (use extra sheet if necessary):
It started to rain about 4AM. Del woke at 5AM and saw that the group near
us had crossed the stream. He liked to hike in the rain. He had finished,
the day before, the paperback book that he had brought and so had nothing
to do or read while waiting. He was the trip leader and decided to try to
cross. I hurriedly packed up. There were smaller stream crossing of 1/2 km
before we reached the main stream, and as always, he was several hundred
meters ahead of me. Not a good idea. He was pacing up and down the main
channel looking for the best place to cross for the 5 minutes that it took
me to catch up to him. Finally he picked a spot. He HAD his pack
unbuckled. After he was a few steps out into the stream and I could see
that it was difficult for him and that there was a good chance of him
falling, I took off my pack and put it down on the gravel bar. He had one
foot on the other shore-I thought that he had made it, then he fell in and
was washed the 10 meters downstream and back to my side of the stream. I
helped him get up. Water was dripping from his pack. I suggested that we
camp and dry out. He didn't want to spend a third night at this site. Del
had only brought one hiking pole. I handed him one of mine and told him to
throw it back to me after he crossed. This had worked for me in the Yukon.
He was concerned about losing it and handed it back to me. He violated
another rule and went back to the same place to try to cross again. Now my
memories become less clear as things started happening fast. I think that
he only made it halfway across this second time. He fell down, was washed
the 10 meters back to near where I was, got a grip on the river bed while
on his hands and knees. He was only there for seconds and then he was
carried downstream again. I remember him looking very surprised. He was
only carried 10 meters when he started tumbling head over heals backwards.
With two poles and without my pack, I was just barely able to cross. Not
crossing was not an option as all of the little streams that we had just
previously crossed had merged into an obviously uncrossable stream just
downstream from our position on the gravel bar. I hurried downstream as
fast as I could watching for him - hoping he was clinging to a rock. After
1/2 km-it must have taken me 10 minutes to get there, I saw his pack,
praying that he wasn't with it. I was near panic now. I recall ignoring
rapids and stepping in chest deep holes in the stream to reach him.
I found him in about six inches of water. The current had stripped off
most of his clothes. He still had one arm through his pack strap! I don't
specifically have a memory of his face in the water, but it must have been
as I wanted to get him out of the water. I grabbed his arm and started
pulling him toward shallow water. But with the pack still attached, the
current pulled him out of my grasp and he was going downstream again. I
decided that I couldn't get him out of the water by myself. Later I
calculated that his pack could weight 200 pounds filled with water, and he
was 6 foot tall and so almost 200 pounds. I couldn't do anything with
300-400 pounds in the water. Couldn't even roll him over because of his
pack.
There was an emergency shelter with a radio nearby, so I ran the 200
meters over to it. I saw three packs in front and started calling for
help. Ian, Dene, & Jordon who had crossed earlier were inside. Ian put
Jordon on the radio and sat phone to call for help. Ian, Dene, & I ran
back to help Del. Del had always carried his boots tied together over his
neck when we were wearing our water sandals. The boots were twisted about
his neck. My knife was in my pack 1/2 km upstream. Ian cut the boots off.
We separated Del from his pack. Ian wanted to start CPR there in the 6
inch flowing icy water, I wanted him taken to shore. We compromised and
carried him to the gravel bar. This is the first time that I looked at my
watch and it was 7:04AM. I instructed Ian and Dene to assist me with CPR
for 40-50 minutes while we were kneeling on gravel with water trickling
through. My knees are still healing from being rubbed raw while kneeling
on the gravel. Then we carried Del to the stream bank where Ian and I
worked for about 30 minutes until I was becoming hypothermic. We then all
stayed in the emergency shelter until the helicopter evacuated us.
What we didn't know until after the accident was that the other group,
Ian, Dene, and Jordon, had crossed went at 4AM, nearly 3 hours before we
attempted it, and crossed together as a group whereas Del attempted to
cross by himself.
Analysis of Accident: What knowledge and techniques will help prevent
future accidents?
Before stepping into the water: practice several times: pretend that I am
falling in the water and discard my pack.
When someone falls in the stream, shout: drop your pack.
Don't hurry in the wilderness; patience, think!
Follow the known rules for stream crossing.
Don't carry your boots around your neck.
Look for crossings away from a long rapids.
Additional Comments:
Del was an intelligent, experienced backpacker in excellent condition.
Impatience and not discarding his pack caused his death. Icy water should
have helped the CPR to revive him. I suspect he also had a concussion
and/or broken neck.
I like to ask myself the question, if I slip and fall, will I get hurt.
Logical fallacy. Lacks proof of causation. If you want to find out if this is true, you could get a pair of poles and hike thousands of miles on the same terrain with them and compare results....
Not quite. I once spent an afternoon hiking with a pair of Leki that the company had donated to the Cabin. While trying to cross a beaver flowage, the poles slipped on a rock that I could easily have climbed over had I been carrying my staff. I ended up to my waist in the water. That had never happened in thousand of miles of wooden staff/crutch tip hiking.
But I think the real reason my staff works better than poles -- for me at least -- is that it forces me to be cautious in delicate situations. I notice that pole users vault along fast regardless of conditions and end up falling every 20 miles or so.
I sit in wonder sometimes in AT shelters, listening to pole carriers exclaiming how things were looking up -- they had only fallen once that day. I usually muttered something about falls result from going too fast for conditions. They would look at me with expressions that said, "how dumb you are."
Weary
Weary
Perhaps your unfamiliarity with Lekis contributed to the event?
And I call BS on the never slipped with staff/crutch tip...
maybe not in That beaver damm!
We never claim trekking poles eliminate falls.
Most falls, yes.
Many, many, tweeks, twists and sprains avoided..yes
Cautious hikers fall very seldom.
All falls?
Seems a lot to ask.
Really makes the rare fall a video moment for your friends..
like a "yard sale" skiing!
Weary
Perhaps your unfamiliarity with Lekis contributed to the event?
And I call BS on the never slipped with staff/crutch tip...
maybe not in That beaver damm!
We never claim trekking poles eliminate falls.
Most falls, yes.
Many, many, tweeks, twists and sprains avoided..yes
Cautious hikers fall very seldom.
All falls?
Seems a lot to ask.
Really makes the rare fall a video moment for your friends..
like a "yard sale" skiing!
Whatever!!!
I bet that:
1) most people that are happy with their poles thought of them as silly beforehand.
2) most people that are happy with their poles, use them correctly
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/poles.htm
To get the benefit of poles over a staff you need :
two of them
adjust them for up and downhill
insert the hand in the strap from under it not over
Get a pair that does not collapse on you . Black Diamond Double Flick Lock is a good start.
Franco
Sassafras Lass
03-01-2010, 18:22
I've always used a single pole - whether Nature-made or store-bought - when walking and hiking, but I know my own limits and I have a fair idea of what to expect on my GA-ME thru next March, so just this morning before work my husband and I purchased the Black Diamond Ergo trekking poles. I can't wait for them to get here, as I have a whole year to figure out how to maximize their use, not to mention fiddle around with them with the TarpTent Cloudburst 2 we're getting.
To each his own - I hiked Alum Cave Trail up LeConte in the Smokies with a single pole in at least 6" snow - especially in that instance, I believe poles would have made my walk much more enjoyable and less stressful.
SunnyWalker
03-01-2010, 22:00
I done a lot of hiking in the Pacific NW and in NM. I did a week on AT and plan to thru hike eventually. I have used a hiking staff for most of my life. I tried the two hiking poles on AT. Wow, there seemed no comparison. I did have a tendency to really speed up though. So I tend to think that I might indeed fall more often with them unless I am more careful. BTW, on the AT for the week I never did take a spill. I have fallend using a stave though.