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OnThePath
02-27-2010, 19:53
what type of tips should my hiking poles have? as to not have a negative impact or at least minimal impact on the trail. I have questionable knees and feel they are necessary?

winger
02-27-2010, 20:10
Your feet have a much higher impact than a 5-10 mm steel tip.

white_russian
02-27-2010, 20:34
http://www.rei.com/product/750120

You don't need a metal tip on a walking stick.

Mountain Wildman
02-27-2010, 20:46
http://base0.googlehosted.com/base_media?q=http://www.campsaver.com/Images/Images/a/bd-tip-protector.jpg&size=19&dhm=88797004&hl=en (http://www.whiteblaze.net/product_url?q=http://www.campsaver.com/itemdesc.asp%3Fic%3Dbld0101&fr=AMx_AUIzArH-djkjgo798ChfwnJCT8nOsNuU3Gsz4SYz6df7NJZKq8IJsU8Ced 4CApbtD0gFAc6ykNZv8yx_vV7aszF_W0JHSkZLKHXMvtrIx_SK FVaPvLwAAAAAAAAAAA&ei=0byJS_y_EdWFlwfjwcChAw&sig2=BLK8Z5X3oblWSsxdZlUe1g&gl=us&hl=en&sa=image) I bought these for my Black Diamond Poles.

Elder
02-27-2010, 20:52
I'm the Leki guy...end disclaimer
Do Not Use Rubber Tips On the Trail..

Fall down, go BOOM.

Rubber tips are for road walking, travel and storage. They are by no means as secure as the carbide tips.
One rescue from a fall damages the trail much more than all the other tips.

weary
02-27-2010, 21:41
Well, it is not true that one foot step causes far more trail damage than one sharp tip on a hiking pole. Every step with a boot compresses the soil. Every step with a pointed tip on a hiking pole, loosens the soil. But regardless. Compaction is a given. No one can do much about it. But we can lessen the impact of our walking sticks and hiking poles. Choose a flat bottom, over a sharp pointed bottom on whatever you choose to use, while walking on the AT.

Farmers have known for decades that loosened soil erodes faster than compacted soil. That's why "no till" or minimum till soil preparation is the goal of most wise farmers these days.

Ideally soil should be neither loosened nor compacted. But that is impossible and still have a walking path.

Weary

Slack-jawed Trog
02-28-2010, 10:54
what type of tips should my hiking poles have?

Both.
FWIW, I put the rubber tips in my pocket rather than leaving them behind. Admittedly that's where they spend most of the time. However, I use the rubber tips on rocky trails and ledge. I've experienced a couple of falls due to the metal tips skidding across rock and out from under me, especially on descents. I share your bad knees.

Elder
02-28-2010, 19:55
Yes even the carbide tips slip at a steep angle on rock.. but they are secure at a much steeper angle than rubber.

winger
02-28-2010, 20:11
The damage to a pristine path, as in non treaded, comes from compression to the LIVING habitat in the soil, thus the damage from a foot vs a steel tip. A single foot step in the Southwest can kill decades of delicate fauna. I use steel tips, a larger 'footprint' via a flat pole end surface is more damaging and makes far less practical utilitarian sense anyway. We after all aren't "tilling" the soil, the depth of a steel tip being only a few centimeters.

winger
02-28-2010, 20:14
correction: flora as in plants and microbes, duh.

weary
02-28-2010, 20:29
The damage to a pristine path, as in non treaded, comes from compression to the LIVING habitat in the soil, thus the damage from a foot vs a steel tip. A single foot step in the Southwest can kill decades of delicate fauna. I use steel tips, a larger 'footprint' via a flat pole end surface is more damaging and makes far less practical utilitarian sense anyway. We after all aren't "tilling" the soil, the depth of a steel tip being only a few centimeters.
Wrong. I'm not sure whar Winger is talking about. But for the trails that most of us use around the Appalachians, our impact is the "tilling" impact of a sharp pointed pole breaking the soil.

The alternative is to not hike at all. For the few of us addicted to hiking, that is not an option, what we are seeking is a way to minimize our impact. That clearly is to use a rubber tip on the commercial poles that most use, or use an inexpensive wooden stick, such as I've described from time to time.

Weary

Elder
02-28-2010, 20:41
Wrong. I'm not sure whar Winger is talking about. But for the trails that most of us use around the Appalachians, our impact is the "tilling" impact of a sharp pointed pole breaking the soil.

The alternative is to not hike at all. For the few of us addicted to hiking, that is not an option, what we are seeking is a way to minimize our impact. That clearly is to use a rubber tip on the commercial poles that most use, or use an inexpensive wooden stick, such as I've described from time to time.

Weary

see post #5

weary
02-28-2010, 20:52
see post #5
Well. I have. Several times. It is not a valid conclusion. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it.

Weary

winger
02-28-2010, 20:55
Its rather obvious at this point (pun intended) that indeed you don't know what I'm talking about, or what Elder is saying either.

weary
02-28-2010, 21:34
Its rather obvious at this point (pun intended) that indeed you don't know what I'm talking about, or what Elder is saying either.
Well. then let me clarify what I'm saying. Whether sticks or boots cause the most damage to trails is beside the point. Boots are a constant, and can not be eliminated, as long as we are talking about a hiking trail. Whatever damage they are causing will continue until the trail is eliminated.

Until that happens there are three options: hiking sticks. poles, or neither. I used neither for decades. Starting nearly two decades ago, I've chosen to use a single hiking staff with a blunt "crutch tip" foot. So far I haven't heard any serious concern about that choice. Some want to go further and use sharp pointed hiking poles. I say that they are more damaging to trails than blunk crutch tips. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

However, whether pointed sticks may be better or worse than boots. is beside the point. There is unlikely to be a significant number of Appalachian Trail hikers walking without boots. Therefore, boots are a constant. The question is how to minimize overall hiker impact without eliminating hikers all together,

Even those walking barefoot still have to choose whether to use hiking poles with their sharp points, or those blunt crutch tips that some of us choose as being more environmentally favorable to the trail -- or, yes, nothing.

Weary

Feral Bill
02-28-2010, 22:06
5280/3ft trail width = 1760 miles for a square mile of damage, almost the whole trail. Since we walk on it, compressed, more or less lifeless soil is a good thing. My conclusion, damage from poles and feet is trivial, in the eastern mountain ecosystem anyway.

weary
02-28-2010, 22:22
5280/3ft trail width = 1760 miles for a square mile of damage, almost the whole trail. Since we walk on it, compressed, more or less lifeless soil is a good thing. My conclusion, damage from poles and feet is trivial, in the eastern mountain ecosystem anyway.
Well, not really trivial. Maintaining clubs spend hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, keeping the trails maintained from the impact of boots. Most clubs spend additional thousands dealing with the special damage from sharp-pointed hiking sticks.

Boot damage is a constant. It cannot be eliminated short of closing the trail. I think sticks with carbide or steel tips cause more damage than blunt rubber crutch tips. But it is not something I can document. It's just what I can observe.

Weary

Mountain Wildman
02-28-2010, 22:24
I am not a hiking expert but I am a Construction Inspector and have in depth knowledge of soil and the fines content, grain sizes, sedimentary content, organic content etc...
I would imagine a 500 pound Black Bear does more damage to the Trail soil than we do.

Mountain Wildman
02-28-2010, 22:34
For structural construction, appropriate soil must be compacted to 95% based on Laboratory results from running an M.D., Maximum Density due to contents of soil in relation to the percentage of moisture content and the pounds of force applied to the precise mixture of approved soil and present or added moisture. From my experience, I worked on a project in West Hartford, Connecticut, Don't remember the name precisely, Something like Academy of Sports and Medical Sciences I believe.
While in the process of placing soil for the foundation of the School the Large Roller broke, We tried everything they had including the Huge multi ton Soil carriers weighing tons and could not achieve 95% compaction.
Anyway, Human traffic may undoubtedly cause some damage, but we could walk back and forth on the trail almost infinitely and not interfere with it's overall integrity.
Just my opinion of course. I have no Scientific data to confirm my statement.

Mongoose2
02-28-2010, 22:43
J.L. If you don't believe "human traffic" can cause damage please visit the Blood Mountain Ga area.

Mountain Wildman
02-28-2010, 22:54
J.L. If you don't believe "human traffic" can cause damage please visit the Blood Mountain Ga area.

I have never been there, I am sure it does, but in the overall picture, simple walking will not compress the soil under natural conditions to a degree that would effect the soil for an extended period of time.
Even the compaction of soil in grass areas of a construction project requires the weight of a dozer. I am not an expert on the human impact on soil, but I am fairly knowledgeable in regards to soil in construction applications. I am not trying to ignore your statements, just thought I could shed a different light on the concerns posted.
As I stated, I have no Scientific data on any claims or opinions listed.

Feral Bill
02-28-2010, 23:02
Well, not really trivial. Maintaining clubs spend hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, keeping the trails maintained from the impact of boots. Most clubs spend additional thousands dealing with the special damage from sharp-pointed hiking sticks.

Boot damage is a constant. It cannot be eliminated short of closing the trail. I think sticks with carbide or steel tips cause more damage than blunt rubber crutch tips. But it is not something I can document. It's just what I can observe.

Weary

I agree with damage to the trail itself. I was refering to damage the trail does to the surroundings. I should have been clearer.

Grampie
03-01-2010, 10:34
Before I thru-hiked I was a believer that hiking poles w/carbide tips could cause trail damage. I got this impression from reading a lot of posts on this subject.
While hiking I didn't notice much trail damage caused by folks using hiking poles. I did notice what I would consider a positive effect caused by hiking poles. The use of hiking poles creates a area adjacent to the trail that is disturbed by pole tips penetrating the soil. This penetration allowes seeds a place to sprout and grow causing a strip of grass along the side of the trail. This strip of grass must help to prevent soil erosion.

GA BASS
03-01-2010, 11:29
you take your rubber tips and I'll take my steel tips and move on. kinda a useless debate since it is personal preference

sherrill
03-01-2010, 11:30
As an aside, rubber tips were mandatory in the Inca Trail. If you had poles, they were the next things inspected at the checkpoints after your permit and passport.

Let me tell you, there are a lot of stones on the Inca Trail.

weary
03-01-2010, 13:15
I use tips on ice (an old ski pole). Otherwise I use a soft rubber crutch tip on my walking staff. Better traction on rocks, okay traction on soil and mud. And less trail damage.