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View Full Version : Trails.com and other pay sites are evil



trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 00:33
I get so mad sometimes. Living in Idaho, there are some great trails, but alot are hard to find info for. For instance, I am trying to research the Selway River trail for this summer, but when you search for it all you can find is sites like Trails.com and others that want to charge for the info. They want me to become a "Member" in order to find info like trailhead location and trail description.

Back east, it looks to be alot easier to find trail info online. As it should be.
Just hate seeing the Hiking community getting corporatized. We hike toge away from that crap.

Manwich
03-04-2010, 01:09
And go figure, when I advertised my completely free open source adless Trail Compendium TheTrailWiki (http://www.thetrailwiki.org).org, I was ostricized by several people on this site and others. Site never had a chance to take off and without user contribution, the site has no "backbone" to speak of.

I guess people would rather submit their data to places where it'll be locked up behind a moneywall.

trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 01:17
Man, I would have backed it and submitted trails. Let me know if ya start it back up.

Wise Old Owl
03-04-2010, 01:41
Totem I was unaware of your forum, I am a member of trails.com and it makes folks aware of trails in their area and yet leaves some real issues to be fixed as the trails are 10 years or more old. You cannot import the trail into the gps and well after two years I felt it was juvi but that's my opinion.

fiddlehead
03-04-2010, 03:44
I hiked in the Selway and mountains around there back around 2000.
I didn't see many trails, I just took good maps (7 1/2 min quads) and hiked without trails.
Fairly easy to do in that area although not down by the river necessarily.
I hiked out on a river trail however.

I guess when they build a trail, then they want to charge you to find out where it is.
That sucks. Go trailess. It's more fun anyway.


Good luck.

trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 03:49
There is a 50 mile trail that follows the Selway river. I finally found the info. Sounds like a great trail. Here is a vid. Selway River trail (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/Selway%20River%20trail)

white_russian
03-04-2010, 09:44
And go figure, when I advertised my completely free open source adless Trail Compendium TheTrailWiki (http://www.thetrailwiki.org).org, I was ostricized by several people on this site and others. Site never had a chance to take off and without user contribution, the site has no "backbone" to speak of.

I guess people would rather submit their data to places where it'll be locked up behind a moneywall.

What is wrong with Whiteblaze? There is no paywall here. Yes you can pay to edit your posts and there are like two ads, but no one is keeping information locked away. Then on top of that ALDHA has the previous years companion online for free. Just face it, you tried to pretty much copy the functionallity that current free sites give and lost.

fredmugs
03-04-2010, 13:04
Did you get upset when they charged you for your pack, tent, boots, etc?

Manwich
03-04-2010, 13:52
Man, I would have backed it and submitted trails. Let me know if ya start it back up.

The website stands now as a personal resource to myself and my hiking club. Additions are few and far between now that there's little interest, but we're using it as a spot to dynamically track progress and journaling. Examples:

http://www.thetrailwiki.org/User:Totem (Progress Tracking)

http://thetrailwiki.org/3-Day_AT_Hike_October_11th_-_13th_(Thomas_Worman) (Trail Journal)

You're welcome to use it however you want, and it's dynamic enough to do with what you'd like. It will remain up as long as I am still running Web-Hosting Servers (and considering I make a ton of dough doing it, it's not likely this site will disappear.)


Totem I was unaware of your forum, I am a member of trails.com and it makes folks aware of trails in their area and yet leaves some real issues to be fixed as the trails are 10 years or more old. You cannot import the trail into the gps and well after two years I felt it was juvi but that's my opinion.

Most people here are unaware of it because certain moderation here had pushed to have it removed from my signature... but it was there for nearly a year and I link to something relevant when I can (if it's useful.)


What is wrong with Whiteblaze? There is no paywall here. Yes you can pay to edit your posts and there are like two ads, but no one is keeping information locked away.

There's nothing wrong with WhiteBlaze... In fact, I'm a donating member. I was referring to Trails.Com in terms of locking information away.


Just face it, you tried to pretty much copy the functionallity that current free sites give and lost.

Errr, I employed a MediaWiki Backbone to control Google Maps that can Import GPX / GDB / KML / KMZ formats and dedicated the site to Hiking and Backpacking... Kinda hard to Copy that Functionality considering I wrote the extension from the ground up. I compounded the functionality of a bunch of different sites. Think Trails.Com meets Postholer meets Wikipedia meets Whiteblaze meets Rohland meets ALDHA.


and lost.

That's pretty negative. I didn't lose anything. The site didn't take but my hard work still stands and at least 1 person appreciates it.


Then on top of that ALDHA has the previous years companion online for free.

That's cool, and while I realize much doesn't change, it's still Years Old Information. Nothing wrong with an alternative page that can be modified immediately. But when people go out of their way to actively protest my site (a few nameless buffoons here protested it on its basis AND on unrelated personal issues with me) or delete information or copy its source directly (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58061&highlight=Neat%20to%20see%20another%20website%20us ing%20the%20same%20exact%20poly-line%20encoding%20method%20my%20site%20created%20i n%20the%20source#4),

Blissful
03-04-2010, 14:00
Web sites need money to function and provide online resources. If its good resources they have a right to charge. I mean you would buy a map or a gudebook and not quibble about it, wouldn't you?

Same as WB here is also a great resource; everyone should be contributing to this site

Mags
03-04-2010, 14:05
I wouldn't say trails.com is evil. They have a business and some people are willing to pay for it. I woudn't pay for it..some people will.

The solution (and this is what I do) is do a google search with a "-trails.com" in it to filter out their higher google rankings.

example

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ida&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22idaho+backpacking%22+-trails.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Mrs Baggins
03-04-2010, 14:07
Web sites need money to function and provide online resources. If its good resources they have a right to charge. I mean you would buy a map or a gudebook and not quibble about it, wouldn't you?

Same as WB here is also a great resource; everyone should be contributing to this site

Just renewed my contribution today! :sun I am always happy to pay for what I use. If I don't want to pay for something then I just don't use it. Pretty easy. I paid for Classmates.com but I won't renew that one because I seldom go there anymore. If Facebook starts charging I'll have to seriously consider my daily use of it and all of the connections I've made with old friends there.

Ladytrekker
03-04-2010, 14:10
I agree if you are willing to take the time you can eventually get the info free. I do alot of research on trails and paddling trails in Florida.

You can contact the Div. of Forestry, Dept. of Agriculture, and Wildlife Management Areas all have recreation lands and alot of times have pamphlets, websites or book listing the trails.

A great source of information about recreation lands are the water management districts. You can get trail info and real time river water levels.

Check out hiking/backpacking meetup groups in that area they may have hiked it or have someone with some first hand knowledge.

All the state and government agencies have never made me pay for any periodicals or literature, so go for free.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Ladytrekker
03-04-2010, 14:11
I do however, donate to this site.

mudhead
03-04-2010, 14:18
I wouldn't say trails.com is evil. They have a business and some people are willing to pay for it. I woudn't pay for it..some people will.

The solution (and this is what I do) is do a google search with a "-trails.com" in it to filter out their higher google rankings.

example

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ida&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22idaho+backpacking%22+-trails.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Help out the slower folks. By doing the search you did, with the quotes around Idaho hiking trails but not the trails.com part, you got rid of the trails.com results?

Yes I need a 15 year old to explain google.:rolleyes: Take pity.

10-K
03-04-2010, 14:20
I belong to a lot of forums but this is probably the one that I've learned the most from and I feel like my contribution is the least I can do.

Plus, it can be very entertaining from time to time. :)

trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 14:28
Uhh, where is that edit button?

Mags
03-04-2010, 14:29
Help out the slower folks. By doing the search you did, with the quotes around Idaho hiking trails but not the trails.com part, you got rid of the trails.com results?




essentially, it was putting in the MINUS SIGN trails.com that did the trick. Putting "idaho backpacking" in quotes told it to look for something specific.

Boolean algebra I believe it is called? More info and some cool tips:
http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=136861

Mind you, this is not just google. I believe all the search engines have this function. I did it back on Yahoo when it was merely a search portal (all the sites pretty much manually added!)

Manwich
03-04-2010, 14:30
Help out the slower folks. By doing the search you did, with the quotes around Idaho hiking trails but not the trails.com part, you got rid of the trails.com results?

Yes I need a 15 year old to explain google.:rolleyes: Take pity.

25 year old to the rescue:

Any Search Term in Google Immediately Prefixed with a - will omit search results involving that term.

Monica Lewinsky shows 734,000 results.

Monica Lewinsky -clinton shows 260,000 results.

mudhead
03-04-2010, 14:33
Mercy Buckets.:)

I was still am stuck on the & and " " days.

Like that minus sign trick. Thanks again.

white_russian
03-04-2010, 14:36
Errr, I employed a MediaWiki Backbone to control Google Maps that can Import GPX / GDB / KML / KMZ formats and dedicated the site to Hiking and Backpacking... Kinda hard to Copy that Functionality considering I wrote the extension from the ground up. I compounded the functionality of a bunch of different sites. Think Trails.Com meets Postholer meets Wikipedia meets Whiteblaze meets Rohland meets ALDHA.
Programming functionality does not equal end user functionality. Most people can get all my information from Whiteblaze and ALDHA so they don't need you. This is kind of like how Google tried to do social networking with Buzz and no one cared because Facebook and Twitter work just fine.

Cookerhiker
03-04-2010, 15:31
I get so mad sometimes. Living in Idaho, there are some great trails, but alot are hard to find info for. For instance, I am trying to research the Selway River trail for this summer, but when you search for it all you can find is sites like Trails.com and others that want to charge for the info. They want me to become a "Member" in order to find info like trailhead location and trail description.

Back east, it looks to be alot easier to find trail info online. As it should be.
Just hate seeing the Hiking community getting corporatized. We hike toge away from that crap.

Now that you've vented, how about contributing to WhiteBlaze for all the good info here?

trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 15:48
Good idea, just did. And then I noticed that Whiteblaze is from Litchfield, Maine. I grew up in Gardiner, a few miles away. Hmmm.

Cookerhiker
03-04-2010, 15:51
Good idea, just did. And then I noticed that Whiteblaze is from Litchfield, Maine. I grew up in Gardiner, a few miles away. Hmmm.

Welcome! You won't find Rick in Litchfield for the next 6 months. He's thruhiking this year.

trailangelbronco
03-04-2010, 15:57
Good for him! I'm gonna wonder for six months if I grew up with Rick, or knew him somehow.

Jonnycat
03-04-2010, 17:48
There is a special place in hell reserved for people who charge other people for information outside of a commercial setting.

The way trails.com can make money is because they are very good at SEO, and because many people on the web haven't been around long enough to know that the best information out there is peer driven, and available for free.

As PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

K2
03-04-2010, 18:32
I use -.com all the time to get rid of these sites in my search results, but I also use +.edu +.gov and +.org to emphasize those sites.

~K2~

Fiddleback
03-05-2010, 10:33
Ah...another example of failure by the American school system.

Evil? Hell bound? A seller willingly provides a product/service to a buyer who is willing to pay said price. And for that the seller falls out of Grace?:D

Tsk!:rolleyes:

FB

sbhikes
03-05-2010, 11:20
I have a popular web site about local trails. All the info is freely given away. I make money by placing a small amount of google ads, having an amazon affiliate store, paypal donations and by putting some of my trail info into a print-on-demand book for which I get a few dollars each. It's not enough to live on, but pays for the site. I get good rankings, too, because my site is well-made, been up for over a decade and has hundreds of inbound links.

If you count the good jobs I've gotten using the site as a resume builder, it's made me a heck of a lot of money.

In other words, you can give away the info freely and still make some money.

Mags
03-05-2010, 13:07
There is a special place in hell reserved for people who charge other people for information outside of a commercial setting.



Let's burn the bookstores for providing trail guides! Those EVIL bastards! :D

Jester2000
03-05-2010, 17:04
For a while there I was getting a lot of complaints when I was charging people to sleep with me. Now that I'm doing it for free, I'm still getting a lot of complaints. So I'm starting to think it was never about the money.

Jonnycat
03-05-2010, 19:31
Let's burn the bookstores for providing trail guides! Those EVIL bastards! :D

I've never come across a bookstore that didn't let a customer come in and read a book without purchasing it. Even trail guides. Or TOPO maps.

gunner76
03-05-2010, 20:05
Manwich, I think your trail wiki site is great. Most people have no idea how much work is involved in building & maintaining a site.

Graywolf
03-05-2010, 20:31
I have a popular web site about local trails. All the info is freely given away. I make money by placing a small amount of google ads, having an amazon affiliate store, paypal donations and by putting some of my trail info into a print-on-demand book for which I get a few dollars each. It's not enough to live on, but pays for the site. I get good rankings, too, because my site is well-made, been up for over a decade and has hundreds of inbound links.

If you count the good jobs I've gotten using the site as a resume builder, it's made me a heck of a lot of money.

In other words, you can give away the info freely and still make some money.

So what is in your site??

Mrs Baggins
03-05-2010, 20:45
I've never come across a bookstore that didn't let a customer come in and read a book without purchasing it. Even trail guides. Or TOPO maps.

I worked for Barnes and Noble for 2 years. We had people get really angry because we didn't have copy machines sitting around so that they could just copy off the pages of books and magazines that they didn't think they should have to buy!! It's called "copyright infringement" and it's a crime you cheap bastards.

Graywolf
03-05-2010, 20:53
What turned me off with Trails.com is when you go to the site you will see a "Start a Free Account" at the top right of the screen, but then AFTER you have typed all your information in for this "Free" account, it then proceeds to ask you for your card and a free trial..

I dont like sites that fish for members like that..Either you are a free site or your not, dont reel folks in by advertising Free Accounts then proceed to ask for a card and pay...

Thats why I like White Blaze, it is a free site with options and of course more benefits if you donate (subscribe) but it tells you that, not reel you in..

I want to see what Im getting before I purchase anything, and trails.com does not do that..Too many scams on the internet as there is...I truly believe trails.com is a scam by folks who dont even hike.. I mean, I can get information from Gorp.com if I have too..

JMHO,
Graywolf

Marta
03-05-2010, 21:27
For a while there I was getting a lot of complaints when I was charging people to sleep with me. Now that I'm doing it for free, I'm still getting a lot of complaints. So I'm starting to think it was never about the money.


You bastard! You just made me snort water out my nose!

Skidsteer
03-05-2010, 21:32
You bastard! You just made me snort water out my nose!

So now Jester is getting complaints from people he doesn't sleep with.

He's having a bad day. :D

Mags
03-05-2010, 22:13
I've never come across a bookstore that didn't let a customer come in and read a book without purchasing it. Even trail guides. Or TOPO maps.

It's a PITA tough when you try to lug in your Xerox machine! :banana
(I wrote this before I saw Mrs. B's remark)

Don't like something? Don't use it. I don't like Trails.com...so I don't use it.

Learn to google (http://www.google.com/search?q=backpacking+loops+colorado+-trails.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a). Go to the USFS sites (http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/wilderness/indianpeaks/). Go the USGS site for FREE topos (http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/usgs/maplocator/%28ctype=areaDetails&carea=%24ROOT&layout=6_1_61_48&uiarea=2%29/.do) you can print out. And quit yer' kvetching... :)

sbhikes
03-05-2010, 22:59
So what is in your site??
If you want to see my site, type my username into google and go to the first site you see.

Graywolf
03-06-2010, 00:08
SBhikes, I sent you a PM..Thanks...

As for the book stores...I just scored 2 AT Guide books with maps at a discount book store here in Dallas..Maine and New Hampshire...All still in the postal box with maps, data book, AND Companion, all for $15..Now that is what Im talking about...

Now before anyone here complains, They are a little out dated, but still great information...

Beats paying 10 cents a copy...:banana

Wise Old Owl
03-09-2010, 22:13
You bastard! You just made me snort water out my nose!


Its all down hill from there folks ....:D We need a smilly with snot.