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Jack Tarlin
10-01-2004, 14:55
Funny thing. For the longest time, I wasn't sure "Hanta Virus" was actually a real or significant threat; I always viewed it as a sort of A.T. "urban legend."

Low and behold, I just picked up my atrocious local paper and there's a front-page story about someone entering Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical center; this is being called the FIRST person in New Hampshire known to have contracted the disease.

And no, they weren't staying at at A.T. shelter; seems they had overnighted in a Dartmouth owned cabin.

Moral of story:

Hanta Virus is in fact very real.

If you wanna avoid it, stay away from shelters, or better yet, avoid bunking down in Dartmouth owned Cabins. Or avoid bunking down with Dartmouth students. I dunno.

If you're interested:

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=44842

MOWGLI
10-01-2004, 16:18
To the best of my knowledge, one person had previously been confirmed as having contracted Hanatvirus along the AT. It was back in the late 90s.

If you do choose to stay in shelters, perhaps the worst thing you could do is sweep out the shelter, without paying attention to where the dust cloud goes.

In 2000, I hiked with a few folks who bordered on obsessive compulsive. The simply had to sweep out the shelter as soon as they got there. I would always quietly move away and let them do their thing.

Hantavirus is contracted by breathing contaminated mouse droppings. My tent is constantly looking better & better.

grrickar
10-01-2004, 17:53
So what is the verdict on staying at shelters in the GSMNP? I read on my permit that it says that you must stay in shelters, but I would rather tent anyday unless the weather was extremely bad. Can you be fined if you camp and there is a nearby shelter with vacancies, and if so, what are the chances of being caught? I figured if you camped well out of sight and did not have a campfire, it's not like anyone would come looking for you - or would they?:-?

The more I read about shelter life, the more I like my tent as well. You have to carry the thing anyway since you are not guaranteed space in the shelter, so why carry the weight and NOT use it?

MOWGLI
10-01-2004, 18:25
So what is the verdict on staying at shelters in the GSMNP? I read on my permit that it says that you must stay in shelters, but I would rather tent anyday unless the weather was extremely bad. Can you be fined if you camp and there is a nearby shelter with vacancies, and if so, what are the chances of being caught? I figured if you camped well out of sight and did not have a campfire, it's not like anyone would come looking for you - or would they?:-?



Well, you can't legally tent camp along the AT, but there is something like 50 or so backcountry campsites in the park, and many of them are on the side trails that connect to the AT. Of course, that means dropping down off of the ridge in many cases. Hikers are usually too lazy to do that, cause it requires hiking back uphill in the morning. Interestingly enough, most of the prettiest places in the park are off of the AT. Staying at backcountry campsites would allow you to see many beautiful places that thru-hikers never get to see.

Your chances of being caught camping next to a shelter are very high. There are Ridgerunners in the park, and they carry radios. I would not recommend stealth camping. The park is overused as it is. Besides, your chances of catching Hantavirus in a shelter are slim to none. You are much more likely to be ripped off by another hiker, or struck by lightening, and both of those things are uncommon occurrences.

By the way, there are some very nice shelters in the park. Icewater Springs and TriCorner Knob both come to mind. There are also a couple of real rat holes (pun intended). The one about 2 miles south of Spence Field comes to mind. Very dark & dingy.

Lone Wolf
10-01-2004, 18:32
There's ample tent space in front of and to the side of most of the shelters in the Smokys. I never stay in them even if they're empty.

smokymtnsteve
10-01-2004, 19:06
The ridgerunners have no enforcement capability,,,you chances of receiving a Fine are very low. they would probably just tell you to go to the shelter, and explain the rules to you.

Goon
10-01-2004, 23:04
Just out of curiosity I went the CDC's hantavirus website:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hanta/hps_stc/stc_spot.htm


I also found a page that describes the mice that transmit hantavirus. There's a series of maps that show where those particular mice live and how they correlate to the actual cases of Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome (HPS):

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hanta/hps/noframes/rodents.htm

From those maps it looks like the VAST majority of cases are in the western US, although there are a half dozen data points along the AT corridor.

I wouldn't worry about it myself.

steve hiker
10-02-2004, 00:09
Awhile back I read about a woman who twisted her spine while getting out of her chair at work, and was paralized. Should I avoid chairs from now on? I prefer standing anyway.

Pencil Pusher
10-02-2004, 00:26
It's going to be hard to cruise the net without a chair, Steve...

This hanta virus sucks, as does lyme disease. Good information to know, though. And yeah, sounds like another good reason not to stay in the shelters.

Lone Wolf
10-02-2004, 07:39
Overall, shelters suck.

orangebug
10-02-2004, 07:49
There are a few ways to clean a shelter and avoid making a bunch of dust. In the best of all possible worlds, you would bring some bleach and wet the floor before sweeping. You can do similarly with water to reduce the airborne dust. It is probably better to let the obsessional cleaners finish their task and wait 15 minutes or so.

There has been hantavirus detected in the Smokies, but no illness. The bear cables are as much designed to reduce shelter mice populations as to protect from bears. Hantavirus is very rare, with more folks worried about it as a bioterror weapon.

My experience in the Smokies during thru hiker season, the Ridgerunners encourage thru hikers to make room in the shelter by tenting. They hope for us to demonstrate LNT and how to tent responsibly.

Bill...

grrickar
10-02-2004, 10:46
I didn't mean to imply that I was worried about contracting Hanta - I just enjoy the outdoors more sleeping in a tent. Mice chewing my gear is my biggest concern staying in shelters.

My Hubba has the entire upper 2/3 of the tent as no see um mesh, so I could stargaze if there is a clearing above.

Kerosene
10-02-2004, 11:18
If you do stay in a shelter, at least avoid sleeping with your head facing a corner where you would be breathing in any airborne dust. Of course, everyone seems to sleep with their feet facing the opening, kind of like everyone facing the elevator doors when they get in.

Jack Tarlin
10-23-2004, 16:17
In a recent front-page story in the Dartmouth college newspaper, it was announced that there had been a false diagnosis of hantavirus; the New Hampshire Department of Health and Human services stated that they were not surprised at this; state epidemiologist Dr. Jesse Greenblatt was quoted as saying "the symptoms were never classsic for hantavirus."

It would appear that fears of contracting hantavirus in New Hampshire trail cabins or shelters have been exaggerrated; hanta may be present in the state, but to date, NOT ONE case has been reported or verified.

Chip
10-23-2004, 18:59
Just completed a section hike of the Smokies early this month. Stayed in the Pecks Corner, Tricorner and Cosby Knob Shelters. I found these shelters fairly clean. Most hikers are cooking and eating away from these buildings. Smoky Mtn. Hiking Club has done a great job of remodeling these shelters. It really helps when hikers don't eat in inside or leave trash behind. When I see someone start to munch or leave trash behind I kindly explain "why they should not".;)

TakeABreak
10-24-2004, 04:12
I remember reading the hantavirus in 99 before my hike, not sure but I thought it was an article in the ATN, anyways I always swept out the shelter if I arrived first. At first I would hold my breather and sweep it out quickly, then someone suggested wetting my bandana and tieing it over my face like an fashion bank robber did in the old western movies. I found this to be easier. Just be sure to wash out the bandana with camp soap afterwards.

chili36
05-27-2008, 10:47
It's not hanta virus, but I got this information today. Another thing to be cautious of. LCMV stands for "lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus", a very common virus carried by rodents, particularly mice. As you can see from the CDC information below, as more is learned about this virus the more we recognize the devastating effects it can have on human health.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cdc.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:57 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Heads-up and Info on LCMV after Transplant Death -- Boston

I really should have sent this to you yesterday (my apologies). We have had another LCMV transplant death in Boston. The Boston Public Health Commission is doing a significant about of outreach on this issue. Wanted to let you know as your Branches might get questions with the increase in press on this issue (see the news clips forwarded at the bottom).

By way of this email, I am providing you some language in case you need to respond to any inquiries on this issue.

As you recall, the main concern with LCMV is pregnant women (our exact wording includes):
LCMV infection during pregnancy can cause severe illness or developmental defects in the fetus. Women who are pregnant or who are planning to become pregnant should avoid contact with all rodents. Some of the following precautions can be taken to reduce the risk of acquiring LCMV infection during pregnancy:

To avoid contact with wild rodents, pregnant women who reside in a household with a wild rodent infestation should have the infestation controlled promptly by a professional pest control company or another member of the household.

To avoid contact with pet rodents, remove the pet rodents from the house or keep pet rodents in a separate part of the home. Pregnant women should ask another family member or friend to clean the cage and care for the pet or arrange for temporary adoption of the pet by a responsible person. Pregnant women should avoid any room where a rodent resides.

All of our rodent control information is available at www.cdc.gov/rodents. (http://www.cdc.gov/rodents.)

For specific info on LCMV: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv.htm)



Please feel free to share with any of your associates in the region and please let us know if you have any questions.



Regards,




Division of Viral and Rickettsial Diseases
National Center for Zoonotic, Vector-borne & Enteric Diseases
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

weary
05-27-2008, 17:51
To the best of my knowledge, one person had previously been confirmed as having contracted Hanatvirus along the AT. It was back in the late 90s. .....
It was 1993. He was from Australia or New Zealand. I forget. He was near death for a while, but recovered, and I think finished the trail, either that year or the next year.

I met his nephew in my town, where he was washing dishes at a resort, waiting for others in his party to finish.

Weary

4eyedbuzzard
05-27-2008, 21:23
Stayed in a shelter outside of Hanover(Trapper John ) a few weeks ago and I'm not sick yet. :-?

I drank unfiltered water too.

Living on the edge.

Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 21:26
Stayed in a shelter outside of Hanover(Trapper John ) a few weeks ago and I'm not sick yet. :-?

I drank unfiltered water too.

Living on the edge.

WHY stay in a shelter at all? i get the no filter thing

4eyedbuzzard
05-27-2008, 22:38
WHY stay in a shelter at all? i get the no filter thing
In this case it was right in front of a fire ring and you really couldn't set up anywhere else close to enjoy it. Otherwise I might have just cowboy camped. Had a really good fire going and wanted to enjoy it while laying there and falling asleep. Plus my daughter was with me and I think she kind of preferred it. I do avoid shelters if they're bug or vermin infested, or even if others are already in them, otherwise I don't have as much problem with them as some(like you) do - just a different personal choice. I think they beat a tent or tarp for shelter in really bad weather as well. The problem isn't really the shelters themselves - its cooking, eating, and leaving food in them that draws the mice.

bfitz
05-27-2008, 23:01
I've woken up in a shelter to find mice sleeping in my beard.

bfitz
05-27-2008, 23:02
No wonder Lone Wolf doesn't like em.

Fiddleback
05-28-2008, 08:34
And the thing is, about hantavirus (and others?), the shelter doesn't have to be rodent infested. It doesn't have to have rodents at all to still be a risk of illness. The disease originates in the urine and feces of the rodents and the victim usually contracts the disease by breathing in the virus after the urine/feces has dried and the agent has become aerosolized, i.e., dust. In other words, the mice may have come and gone...but the disease and risk may still be present. And healthy, strong individuals are supceptible, not just those with compromised health or weakened immune systems. The good news is that it is still a 'low-risk' disease, the bad news is that it's often fatal and there is no effective anti-virus medication available.

The nastier strain of the hantavirus is mostly a western-state issue but it's been noted in 30 of the lower 48. Still, a dirty shelter wouldn't be my choice of overnight spots. This from a CDC web-page: "Anything that puts you in contact with fresh rodent urine, droppings, saliva or nesting materials can place you at risk for infection."

In every incident I can remember reading about, the disease was contracted indoors. Campers (not shelter campers), hunters, and such seem to be at very low risk.

FB

4eyedbuzzard
05-28-2008, 09:13
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not saying shelters are risk free or even pleasant - some are really nasty, but I think there has been exactly one case of Hantavirus contracted by a hiker on the AT (in 1993). Given the number of people who do stay/sleep in shelters on the AT every year, I really don't see it as a huge risk. Sometimes I'll stay in them, sometimes not. There's a lot of reasons to avoid shelters and honestly to me the biggest reasons are human ones. Hantavirus is way down the list of possible deadly AT hazards.

MOWGLI
05-28-2008, 09:20
Some hikers are clean freaks and as soon as they arrive at a shelter, they grab the broom and vigorously sweep the shelter out. Of course, this activity has the potential to put dry mouse droppings into the air. Not sure what the potential is for hantavirus transmission, but I don't stand around testing the waters. I walk away

orangebug
05-28-2008, 09:41
MOWGLI has the right idea. If you want to sweep the shelter, spray it down with some water first to reduce dust. If you see someone making a dust cloud, dumping out mice nests from the rafters with a broom or other efforts to "clean up" - thank them and move away for a good long while.

It is a very low frequency event, but high lethality risk.

4eyedbuzzard
05-28-2008, 10:00
Some hikers are clean freaks and as soon as they arrive at a shelter, they grab the broom and vigorously sweep the shelter out. Of course, this activity has the potential to put dry mouse droppings into the air. Not sure what the potential is for hantavirus transmission, but I don't stand around testing the waters. I walk away

Yeah, that would bother me as I know the problem is caused by stirring up the s**t - pretty common with a lot of things I guess;)

OT, was it your MOWGLI entry I read in Trapper John shelter (Hanover, NH) from last fall? I was there two weekends ago and killed some time reading the register.

Newb
05-28-2008, 15:09
First, you should urinate in the shelter so that the ammonia in your urine will help sterilize the shelter deck. Then, you should further mop with some of your cooking alcohol to be sure. Finally, burn the shelter down and camp in the woods as God intended.

MOWGLI
05-28-2008, 15:13
OT, was it your MOWGLI entry I read in Trapper John shelter (Hanover, NH) from last fall? I was there two weekends ago and killed some time reading the register.

That would not have been me.

weary
05-28-2008, 15:49
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not saying shelters are risk free or even pleasant - some are really nasty, but I think there has been exactly one case of Hantavirus contracted by a hiker on the AT (in 1993). .....
It's not even clear that the virus was contacted on the AT. At the time no one knew when he might have become infested. Since it had never before occurred on the AT, (nor since) speculation at the time was that the guy could have brought the infection with him from Australia or from stops in the west enroute to the trail.

Weary

4eyedbuzzard
05-28-2008, 15:56
That would not have been me.

Probably just some guy raised by wolves then...

mudhead
05-28-2008, 17:24
Just stay away from the pinyons after a wet year.

Cherokee Bill
05-28-2008, 19:45
:-? Seems the best way to get rid of the mice at night at the "AT" shelters is to ....... Roll small cheese-balls in "Viagra", lay the cheese-balls around the shelter and the mice, eat till full, and end up screwing themselves to death...... :D No more mice!

Fiddleback
05-28-2008, 20:46
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not saying shelters are risk free or even pleasant - some are really nasty, but I think there has been exactly one case of Hantavirus contracted by a hiker on the AT (in 1993). Given the number of people who do stay/sleep in shelters on the AT every year, I really don't see it as a huge risk. Sometimes I'll stay in them, sometimes not. There's a lot of reasons to avoid shelters and honestly to me the biggest reasons are human ones. Hantavirus is way down the list of possible deadly AT hazards.

As posted above, the hantavirus is mainly a western-state problem.

Large numbers of people that choose to sleep in shelters which are littered with animal feces appears to be an eastern-state problem.:D

FB

rafe
05-28-2008, 20:56
Overall, shelters suck.

Like that post couldn't have been predicted within seconds after this thread's inception....



Hanta Virus is in fact very real.

If you wanna avoid it, stay away from shelters, or better yet, avoid bunking down in Dartmouth owned Cabins. Or avoid bunking down with Dartmouth students. I dunno.


Best New Years weekend ever was in the DOC cabin on Lyme-Dorchester Road, just east of Smarts Mountain. Very ruck-ish. Monty Python on the boom box. Good libations. Wood stove crankin'. The folks I was with were all set to go ice-diving in the lake up front, but the chain saws couldn't cut through the ice.