View Full Version : To offset or not to offset...
mountain squid
03-09-2010, 19:28
...double blazes, that is.
At our last Maintainers Dinner, there was a discussion about double blazes. Per ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805491/k.9C7F/Trail_Markings.htm) two white blazes, one above the other, "signal an obscure turn, route change, incoming side trail, or other situation that requires you to be especially alert to changes in direction. In some states, one of the two blazes will be offset in the direction of the turn."
Since an offset blaze can help direct a hiker, my vote would be to offset the blazes. What do you think?
See you on the trail,
mt squid
SGT Rock
03-09-2010, 19:30
Offset. But really, there are more than enough blazes and trail sign on the AT for anyone to follow. This is probably over thinking it.
Blissful
03-09-2010, 19:31
Yeah it took me a while on the AT to discover the offset blazes signified what direction the trail turned. Once I realized it I thought it very helpful. :)
Linesman
03-09-2010, 19:32
Which offset blaze is in the direction of the turn though?
SGT Rock
03-09-2010, 19:33
Yeah it took me a while on the AT to discover the offset blazes signified what direction the trail turned. Once I realized it I thought it very helpful. :)
Sort of off topic, but again not. I helped some "lost" hikers once. They thought the double blaze was a whole other trail. Since the last blaze they saw was a double, they thought they were lost. They also didn't have a map (but they did know their lat/lon cause they had a GPS and a cell phone :rolleyes:)
Jester2000
03-09-2010, 19:35
Which offset blaze is in the direction of the turn though?
The top one. We always referred to these as "Garveyed" blazes, or "Garveying" a double blaze, after Ed Garvey.
white_russian
03-09-2010, 19:48
Offset blazes are very helpful if you come to a road crossing and the trail follows the road or a rocky area where the trail is not very defined. For a regular switchback though its not that big of a deal
Jester2000
03-09-2010, 19:55
Offset blazes are very helpful if you come to a road crossing and the trail follows the road or a rocky area where the trail is not very defined. For a regular switchback though its not that big of a deal
I agree. There's a certain amount of over-double blazing; there's a judgement call being made by maintainers over what constitutes a confusing intersection or turn. Your example regarding road crossings is a perfect example of when offset double blazes can be helpful.
WILLIAM HAYES
03-09-2010, 20:07
i have found the offset helpful especially when locating the trail at forest service intersections sometimes saves a lot of backtracking
if its offset then their is no confussion like when a trail strts following a forest road then turns off to the right or left side i like them offset for sure
mountain squid
03-09-2010, 20:09
Per TEHCC guidelines we are not supposed to double blaze switchbacks. I am sure it has happened though.
See you on the trail,
mt squid
On the Bruce Trail in Ontario, the oldest trail in these parts, whose policy on blazes and many other things are derived from the AT, the offset blaze is standard policy. There are three blaze types: single, double offset and terminal. The blazes are white paint, 50mm wide by 150mm tall. Side trails are blue when maintained by the BTA affiliates, and a rainbow assortment of colors for other trails. Most of the other major trails in Ontario follow this blaze and color system, and it works very well. I was surprised to learn that the AT often didn't use the offset blaze, but then I realized the AT is older than the system, so older blazing strategies have probably been grandfathered since inception.
I'd say that there's nothing wrong with clarity and using existing symbols to convey additional useful information. The double blaze most often indicates a turn, so a directional indicator is useful, and leaves the double in-line blaze for other confusing situations, or where there is no room for an offset. In practice, standard blazes are often impossible without placing a signboard, which is often overkill. What we really want while trail walking is simply a clear indication that we are still on the correct trail. This is often just a blaze gesture, like a 6in white paint patch on a sapling beside the trail tread. I find that the most confusing situation is when the trail joins several possible paths, an unambiguous blaze is not possible, and there is no confirmation blaze in sight. Admittedly this is poor design: A good double blaze can reduce the number of alternatives, and a confirmation should be placed even if it requires a signpost. In one case I can recall, there was a faintly blazed trail leading out of the junction, on the side of the double blaze direction, but it turned out that the correct trail was on a road which showed no blazes for at least a quarter mile. Obviously the maintainer was familiar with this junction, and assumed that everyone would know that the trail had been rerouted to the road, so no confirmation was required until the turnoff a half mile or so up the road, out of sight.
What I'm saying is simply that a trail should be blazed for a walker unfamiliar with the route. When I'm on a trail I know, I hardly ever watch the blazes, When I don't know the trail, I follow the tread, and I watch the blazes. When I come to an ambiguous junction, I need all the help I can get.
...double blazes, that is.
At our last Maintainers Dinner, there was a discussion about double blazes. Per ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805491/k.9C7F/Trail_Markings.htm) two white blazes, one above the other, "signal an obscure turn, route change, incoming side trail, or other situation that requires you to be especially alert to changes in direction. In some states, one of the two blazes will be offset in the direction of the turn."
Since an offset blaze can help direct a hiker, my vote would be to offset the blazes. What do you think?
See you on the trail,
mt squid
Offset the blazes. Just make sure that hikers coming from the other direction won't be confused (don't use the same tree or post for both directions). I got briefly lost one day when we looked at offset blazes on a telephone pole (not on the AT) from an odd angle. Upon returning a few minutes later I realized that I was looking at the set intended for sobo hikers. I was heading nobo.
climber2377
03-09-2010, 20:52
i m all for it, most trails i take are like that anyway.
Can't you all find your way without all these dang blazes? How hard can it be to follow a trail?
mweinstone
03-09-2010, 21:39
its the original way to blaze this trail so if you stop their will allways be a few old offset blazes to confuse. better to offset as allways in the past.
Cookerhiker
03-09-2010, 21:45
I favor offset blazes. It's what I learned from the earliest days of backpacking.
Ironically, I won a first-place prize at the 2009 ALDHA Gathering with this photo (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=15918&c=533) where I'm blazing side-by-side. As the photo caption says, usually you can figure out which way the trail turns. In this photo, the only alternative would have been out to and over a rocky outcrop.
modiyooch
03-09-2010, 22:43
Can't you all find your way without all these dang blazes? How hard can it be to follow a trail?it can be difficult at times.
sasquatch2014
03-09-2010, 22:45
I like the off set blaze to indicate a strong turn but often it is also used when the trail goes from arrow straight to bending around a tree. I mean it is hardly a bend at all. In that case it is not really needed IMO.
Lone Wolf
03-09-2010, 22:46
...double blazes, that is.
At our last Maintainers Dinner, there was a discussion about double blazes. Per ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805491/k.9C7F/Trail_Markings.htm) two white blazes, one above the other, "signal an obscure turn, route change, incoming side trail, or other situation that requires you to be especially alert to changes in direction. In some states, one of the two blazes will be offset in the direction of the turn."
Since an offset blaze can help direct a hiker, my vote would be to offset the blazes. What do you think?
See you on the trail,
mt squid
no offset. back in the day when you a double blaze it meant watch for somethin'. keep it frickin' simple
modiyooch
03-09-2010, 22:55
might as well, since it already informs of a turn.
garlic08
03-10-2010, 01:21
Can't you all find your way without all these dang blazes? How hard can it be to follow a trail?
Once again, welcome to AT World!
Two Speed
03-10-2010, 09:29
Can't you all find your way without all these dang blazes? How hard can it be to follow a trail?
it can be difficult at times.Eh, some folks get confused by the difference between diamonds & rectangles (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59843).
Hawkwind61
03-10-2010, 09:49
There are places on various trails that I love to hike that do not see a steady stream of hikers, so off-set blazes have been a help in being sure I'm staying on the trail and didn't just wander off on a game trail. (Although...I do have a habit of meandering along game trails to see where they go. And I cannot resist bushwhacking from time-to-time either. But I have found a lot of people are not comfortable going off a marked trail.)
Alligator
03-10-2010, 09:58
Offsets are particularly helpful IMO on old logging roads and forest roads where the grade is easy and a turn not always obvious. These are easy places to zone out and fly past, especially since the blazing is light due to the straightness.
Two Speed
03-10-2010, 10:18
Oh yeah, there are places where Garvey's are helpful, and it's the same amount of paint.