View Full Version : National Forest campsite fees
RichardD
03-09-2010, 22:25
I discovered today that the forest service is planning on doing away with the 50% discount for camp fees for those of us over 62 who qualify for the lifetime senior parks pass.
First the Forest service started subcontracting out the management of National Forest camp grounds and the price for these sites escalated.
For example, a few years ago I used a National Forest site in the Black hills during a Centennial trail hike and the price was a ridiculous $31 for a site in a campground with pit toilets. ( Usually the national Forests charge $12) Now the subcontractors say they cant make enough money with the senior discounts and want them abolished. It will likely take effect in 2011.
What upsets me the most is that for the last 30 years I have purchased a National Parks pass and Forest service sticker every year and for most of these 30 years I car camped and used the camps extensively. It bothered me that with my very small car and small tent I was paying twice the camp fees that the older folks were paying with their often huge RV's. I reasured myself that one day I would enjoy the same half price privilege.
Well, last Summer I turned 62 and immediately purchased my lifetime pass with the prospect of being able to enjoy the low cost National Forest camping in my upcoming retirement. Imagine how I feel when I hear it is to be taken away within the year.
Excuse the complaining, I had to vent.
Certainly it will not significantly affect hiking/backpacking but I also take extended car camp trips with my grandchildren.
Rockhound
03-09-2010, 22:30
Yep. Thats gotta stick in your craw. On the other hand it is not a lot of money relatively speaking and it is going toward protecting/preserving that which you love.
RichardD
03-09-2010, 22:32
Actually it's not, its going to the subcontractors.
Lone Wolf
03-09-2010, 22:33
i have/feel no sympathy/empathy. plenty of places in America to lay out for free
RichardD
03-09-2010, 22:51
Yes LW when I backpack/hike on my own there are countless free places to camp. Not so when you are treating three or four grandchildren to vacations in national Forests. Campgrounds and a car/tent are the way to introduce them to the outdoor life. Also my wife would no be able to backpack so car/campground is the way to go for her also.
Yes I have taken my oldest grandson backpacking and will take the others one at a time when the time is right.
Captain Blue
03-09-2010, 23:10
It is all about demographics. The population has more and more seniors and many of them are visiting the parks and forest lands. There are not enough people paying the full fare to subsidize the senior discounts. (Heard this before? Social Security)
The Old Fhart
03-09-2010, 23:20
At this point you are all debating an unsupported rumor. How about offering at least one link to show that this change in a lifetime National Forest discount pass (I have an America The Beautiful pass) is even being considered before you throw your passes in the trash.
RichardD
03-09-2010, 23:36
Article in AARP Bulletin March 2010. Their Information is usually reliable.
Entry to National Parks is still free. The proposal is for the senior discount to change from 50% to 10% at all of the privately managed concessioned National Forest campgrounds, they say 82% of the 4731 campgrounds.
The proposal does not yet include National Parks or other federally owned lands.
Perhaps you can find it at http:// bulletin.aarp.org I have the mailed newspaper version of the bulletin Vol 51 No2 page 4
A bit more than a rumour I am afraid.
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/gettingaround/articles/forest_service_proposes_big_fee_increases_for_olde r_campers.2.html
At this point, it is just a proposal--I think there will be too much backlash to actually go through.
GoldenBear
03-10-2010, 10:42
As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?
This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.
JustaTouron
03-10-2010, 10:57
As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?
This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.
Many businesses do is not offer a blanket senior discount but offer a discount to seniors during non-peak hours. E.g. the early bird dinner, a discount at the department store on Tuesday or Wednesday, lower rates for room during the off-season or during the week day. The idea behind this is retired persons often have less money but a more flexible schedule allowing them to avoid the busy times and use the business during the slow periods which benefits the business, the seniors and those people who need to use the business during peak times because they are employed.
It sounds like what the Forest service is in the early stages of considering is eliminating the discount during peak times. But continuing it during non-peak times. Seems like a good plan. No need to give a retiree a discount during Memorial day weekend when plenty of other people are willing to pay full price, the retiree can enjoy the park a few days later when the crowds have gone back to work at a discount.
mister krabs
03-10-2010, 11:27
As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?
This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.
OK, I'll take a shot at it. Not at why *you* should get a discount, but why seniors as a class should in the public sense and do in the business sense.
Younger generations, especially the newest ones like 18 year olds, owe a debt to those who have come before that have contributed to and created the society of the present that we benefit from. Part of that social legacy is the public trust lands that are in the National Parks. That is why you *should* get a discount at national parks.
That doesn't account for why you get a discount at captain D's on wednesdays, but maybe marketing does. You and I as ambitious, responsible and capable savers are not the "norm." We have more assets than the 20% of americans whose only retirement plan is social security and the 60% of americans whose main retirement plan is social security. Poor old people are a big market too and likely to frequent businesses that offer them a discount. One could be blinded by the reflection off all the silver hair in Captain D's on senior night, and I'd bet that what they lose in discount they make up for in volume.
RichardD
03-10-2010, 12:22
Senior discounts at restaurants and the like are merely marketing strategies. Also as seniors I don't think we really have a right to discounts but what got me upset is that the discounts are vanishing ahead of me as I reach the age to take advantage of them.
For many years I paid full price to camp in the National forest (and National park) camps. I was camped alongside many clearly wealthy seniors with their very expensive RV's and they were paying half the camp fees that I was paying. I consoled myself with the thought that in retirement I could take advantage of the much reduced camp fees. Now as I approach retirement the reduced fees may vanish. Obviously that does not sit well with me.
Realistically I can more easily afford the full price now than I could in those days gone by.
I still don't like it.
scottdennis
03-10-2010, 12:52
I say let the law of supply and demand dictate pricing. If people don't want to pay the money they won't go. They'll have to drop prices if no one comes.
Personally, I refuse to pay as much for a campsite than what I could get a cheap hotel room for.
Mrs Baggins
03-10-2010, 12:56
As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?
This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.
I am SO with you!!!! I have sworn to never take those discounts. Why on earth should I get any percentage off of something based on my age when there is a young single mom in line who really needs the price breaks and gets none???? Or the family with kids who could get out more if they could get the price reductions?? I am sick to death of watching "seniors" pull up to places like McDonald's in new or late model luxury cars and then slapping down their quarters and demanding "senior" coffees. Just because someone woke up one more morning that does NOT suddenly make them destitute and unable to pay for things. Our military families deserve discounts. Families with little kids deserve discounts. All of those people are already paying the way of "seniors" through their social security taxes (nope, the money the seniors put in is long gone - their sucking their kids and grandkids dry now) and all of those "senior" prices in stores, restaurants, and more. It would also sicken me to see a couple of blue-haired people pull up in a $100,000 motor home at a campground and then demand their free or reduced camping rates while the young couple or family in a tent has to pay full rack.
JustaTouron
03-10-2010, 13:14
I say let the law of supply and demand dictate pricing. If people don't want to pay the money they won't go. They'll have to drop prices if no one comes.
That is a concept that the feds are slowing begining to understand. Almost every private campground will change you more on a three day weekend than they will mid-week during to off-season. Most state parks are that way, but for some reason many federal locations charge the exact same regardless of the aniticipated demand.
sherrill
03-10-2010, 13:32
I'll take a senior discount if it's offered. (yes, I qualify). I'll pretty much take any discount offered if it helps me save money. When I retire I don't want to work anywhere, anymore. More hiking.
RichardD
03-10-2010, 13:54
Not all seniors are rich, not all young families are poor. Our economy works in a way that if you have lots of money you pay less, if you have little or no money you pay more (credit card interest rates and bank fees an example).
Don't assume that the old couple in the nice RV is very wealthy, the RV might be their home and a $100,000 home is not a particularly expensive home. Half price camping might mean $465 per month to park their RV rather than $930. (Black Hills NF Campground used as example)
Many old folk paid into SS all their working life and their defined benefit is what they earned. I know many who barely subsist off SS and I know a millionaire who takes his SS check every month. When one pays into a defined benefit plan for many years one should be entitled to their defined benefit when they reach the reirement age. It should not be regarded as soaking their children or grandchildren. (Mine by the way is a teacher retirement which so far we have been able to prevent the politicians from accessing and spending and is fiducially sound so it's soaking noone, but that is just my luck of the draw).
If discounts are offered it makes economic sense to use them. Discounts are offered if the vendor believes it will benefit him in either the short or long term. It has nothing to do with rights of any particular group.
Cookerhiker
03-10-2010, 14:06
Regardless of the senior discount issue, my problem with this situation is privatizing our National Forest campgrounds. As Richard said in his earlier posts, much of the fee is going to the contractors. I don't mind paying fees - and I don't need my senior discount - if the funds are going 100% to the Forest Service for management of said forest. I also have no problem with non-government particpation by campground hosts who trade a season-long campsite for some responsibilities, and with the service they provide, why are contractors involved?
If I were on a fixed income and someone offered me a discount at a restaurant, campground, whatever, heck yes, I'd take it! Sounds rather boastful or prideful to me to refuse a discount.
Blissful
03-10-2010, 16:47
I am SO with you!!!! I have sworn to never take those discounts. Why on earth should I get any percentage off of something based on my age when there is a young single mom in line who really needs the price breaks and gets none???? Or the family with kids who could get out more if they could get the price reductions?? I am sick to death of watching "seniors" pull up to places like McDonald's in new or late model luxury cars and then slapping down their quarters and demanding "senior" coffees. Just because someone woke up one more morning that does NOT suddenly make them destitute and unable to pay for things. Our military families deserve discounts. Families with little kids deserve discounts. All of those people are already paying the way of "seniors" through their social security taxes (nope, the money the seniors put in is long gone - their sucking their kids and grandkids dry now) and all of those "senior" prices in stores, restaurants, and more. It would also sicken me to see a couple of blue-haired people pull up in a $100,000 motor home at a campground and then demand their free or reduced camping rates while the young couple or family in a tent has to pay full rack.
Sounds like class warfare to the tee. I'm sure the people with their motor home or luxury car worked hard to have it. Maybe even sold their home and that motorhome IS their home. C'mon. Seniors have worked hard all their lives, probably more so than we do now with all the conveniences. My parents worked hard. Why can't they claim a discount that may save a couple bucks for a meal or free coffee (which costs nothing to the restaurant, btw)when they have to pay out bookos for their health care and everything else that goes amuck when one gets old. They can get a break. They deserve it, for heaven's sake. I mean if you want to thump your chest and not take a discount, fine. But don't ostracize others that do when the gift is offered. Take care and thank our seniors through a cup of coffee or discount on a meal.
GoldenBear
03-10-2010, 17:20
> Sounds rather boastful or prideful to me to refuse a discount.
It is neither. It is a part of my personality called "moral consistency." It means that, if I expound a certain viewpoint, I should live according to that viewpoint. "Don't talk the talk unless you're willing to walk the walk," is another way to put it.
As of yet, I've heard no MORAL justification for giving discounts to people of a certain age WITHOUT (and please don't ignore the following, which everyone seems to have done up to this point) giving that same discount to people of low income. I don't buy the poverty argument, UNLESS the same discount is given to those who truly ARE poor. I don't buy the "fixed income" argument, because I was on a "fixed income" when I reached the top pay scale of my position at age 40 -- meaning, like social security recipients, I would ONLY get cost of living increases in my bi-weekly paychecks. I don't buy the "worked hard" argument, because there is no correlation between "working hard" and being over a certain age -- some seniors have, some haven't; some poor people are, some aren't. Yet one group (seniors) get a discount while the others don't.
I recognize that intelligent arguments exist for giving discounts to seniors but not to the poor -- I've even thought of a few, even though they don't convince me. And I have and will NEVER personally criticize a person my age who takes a discount, even if I conclude the practice is unjustified.
But if reach the viewpoint I have (or any other), then I conclude that I must act in a manner consistent with that viewpoint. Which means, if I think that people my age should not be offered discounts WITHOUT A SIMILAR DISCOUNT GIVEN TO THE POOR (amazing that people always miss that second part), then I shouldn't be taking such a discount.
I'm fully aware that I am boasting of my moral consistency -- something that is ALSO inconsistent with my beliefs -- but I see no way around the conundrum. If I state my opposition to such discounts without making it clear I do not take them myself, then I will be accused (properly) of hypocrisy. I thus make my action stance, and the reasons for it, as clear as can be.
Rocket Jones
03-10-2010, 17:26
Discounts are already given to the poor. They're called food stamps and welfare. If they're so poor as to be on public assistance, why are they in a restaraunt or at a place that charges for you to spend time there?
If that comes across as being cold and heartless, then I just don't know how else to put it.
scottdennis
03-10-2010, 18:27
That is a concept that the feds are slowing begining to understand. Almost every private campground will change you more on a three day weekend than they will mid-week during to off-season. Most state parks are that way, but for some reason many federal locations charge the exact same regardless of the aniticipated demand.
Justa,
That's two word that don't belong in the same sentence. . .FEDS and UNDERSTAND.
There was certainly a case in the past for taking care of our seniors that had lived through harder times and built our countries from the ground up. I am not sure if it still applies today as much as in the past. Seniors today are born as later as 1945. Some of them are still of an older generation however. Anyhow, I think seniors should always be given some extra respect and consideration, just based upon their age alone. It's a long standing tradition in societies, and I think its a good one.
I agree that this isn't about equal rights. It's just another money grab.
Senior discounts are NOT welfare. Senior discounts are a sign of respect.
They are older and wiser, and for that they deserve our respect, not our welfare.
Senior discounts, and other considerations, are a sign of respect. Nothing more.
There was a time when seniors could attend university for free. That too has gone by the wayside. It is a sign of decline of our civilization that we are turning everything into an industry of some form or other. Its all about maximize economic activity, putting a monetary value on everything, and accounting for every transaction. Soon we will all be paying for our hike by the footstep.
JustaTouron
03-10-2010, 18:54
There was a time when seniors could attend university for free. That too has gone by the wayside. It is a sign of decline of our civilization that we are turning everything into an industry of some form or other. Its all about maximize economic activity, putting a monetary value on everything, and accounting for every transaction. Soon we will all be paying for our hike by the footstep.
It actually has more to do with demographics. When 65 first became the retirement age, the age expectacy for working adult males was 66. You only were expected to be retired for one year. Now senior discounts kick in as young as 50 and people are living into their 90s. It is one thing to give 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 100 campers a 50% discount. It is another thing if 85% of the people showing up are getting that discount. The business doesn't work if almost everyone gets the discount.
There is something to that I suppose.
So why not raise the seniors discount up to 70 something?
There is something to that I suppose.
So why not raise the seniors discount up to 70 something?
Yeah. I'll be 62 in 6 years and they'll probably raise the discount age to 70 in five. That's the ways it's been all my life!
Golden Bear, I understand where you are coming from but I contend that everyone needs a break every now and then. A senior citizen discount is one of those breaks. If everyone would think more about other people than themselves, we'd all be a lot better off in this country.
I love crusty old people, especially the stubborn and cynical ones.
They should get an extra discount, just because they don't want them. lol
I thought it was a shame when they stopped letting vets smoke in the vets ward. So what if it was a place of work for nurses and stuff. Don't get me wrong. Those nurses were saints, but some of the older vets had been gassed, and others had been shell shocked and had been in there since the war. All they had besides sketchy crafts and cafeteria food were cigarettes, cards, and each other. We should have let them smoke.
Damn shame.
RichardD
03-10-2010, 22:39
It's all economics and has little or nothing to do with rights or respect.
Mc Donalds is well known for senior coffee and drinks at a big discount. Take a look at how many seniors there are in McDonalds at breakfast or mid afternoon and how much more they spend just because they are there. It was a very shrewd move by McDonalds. I don't see that many seniors in other fast food joints that don't offer such discounts.
As seniors we pay a whole lot more for medical insurance, that is certainly not discounted. Many seniors have large expenditures for prescriptions and contribute greatly to drug companies profits.
At present we get a break at 65 in my location, we can have our property appraisal value frozen so as to keep our property tax from escalating. I hope that does not vanish as I approach that age. Conceivably, without it, the local authority could price me out of my own home if I did not go back to work. Right now my property tax and Insurance is the same as my mortgage (which included both) was when I purchased my home in 1976. Who knows how much it will be in 20 years and possibly I will not be employable in 20 years.
My original post about campgrounds: many years ago the National Forest service deemed it worthwhile to give substantial reduction to senior pass holders and the result was much increased occupancy, especially off peak times. These camps are now run by Commercial enterprises and many have significantly raised prices. They will raise them as much as either the market will bear or that they are allowed to by the Forest service. It's about profit. Since its public land (ours) the Forest service has an obligation to see that the forest is used to the best of advantage for the people consistent with preservation. Hopefully they will make decisions to that end and not be biased too heavily to their Concessionaires profit margin.
I don't see a moral issue with discounts for seniors, I don't believe I have a right to the continued discount but it is disturbing when such things are jerked away just as I reach the age at which I could benefit from them.