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TJ aka Teej
10-04-2004, 21:41
It's here! It's here!:banana

This year's ALDHA Gathering is October 8, 9, and 10 at Concord College in Athens, W.V.

http://www.aldha.org/gathring.htm (http://www.aldha.org/gathring.htm)

ALDHA's home page:

www.aldha.org (http://www.aldha.org/)

A recent thread on where to stay:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=61288#post61288 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=61288#post61288)

I'll see you next year in New Hampshire, have a great time at the '04 Gathering everyone!

TJ

Jack Tarlin
10-05-2004, 14:44
Teej--

Thanx for posting those addresses.

Just wanted to let folks know that a bunch of us will be arriving at the fabulous and fabled Doyle Hotel in Duncannon on Thursday night, and overnighting there before proceeding to West Virginia the next morning. I hope that any Whiteblaze folks who live nearby or who are also en route consider joining us.

*There will be NO contra dancing at this event.

*Likewise, no drum circles.

*Political discussions are OK. Recitation of wretched political poetry of ANY
persuasion is verboten, and will be grounds for immediate expulsion.

*Strict quiet hours in effect after 2:00 AM.

*Folks finding these rules and regulations too onerous are heartily advised
to seek an alternative location.

Hope to see some of you there!!

Alligator
10-06-2004, 09:55
Hello WBers,

My wife and I live very close to Concord College (walking distance), so we thought it would be nice to have any of the WBerís attending the Gathering over for refreshments (soda, beer, and snacks) Sat. evening.

We can start anytime after 7:00. I would like this event to run from 7-11:00, as we have an eight month old. After 11, we would like for folks to make their way to either of the two main camping areas. I will probably head over to Bent Mountain Resort myself.

Of course, adult beverages are welcome. I would ask that no one make a bad impression upon returning to the College or the FLC from our home.

I have a couple of outside chairs (6), but no picnic table. If youíd like to sit outside, bring your camp chair or a blanket. We do have a fireplace inside though and room to spare for guests.

Anyone wishing to attend please let me know. Iíll post directions on the information board at the Gathering.

Alligator.

Spirit Walker
10-06-2004, 12:16
Have you ever seen a Walkin Jim concert? If not, you are missing something special. Why not start after the concert, at about 8:30?

Alligator
10-06-2004, 14:30
Have you ever seen a Walkin Jim concert? If not, you are missing something special. Why not start after the concert, at about 8:30?
I haven't. Given the extensive schedule, I realized that unless I scheduled the event way late, that I would conflict with something. But given the following



Walkin' Jim has been presented with the Environmental Protection Agency's Outstanding Achievement Award. Edward Abbey, the late author of many nature classics, described Stoltz as, "A music man of exuberance and passion." Stoltz's eight recordings get regular airplay on National Public Radio. He is a co-founder of Musicians United to Sustain the Environment.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2718&highlight=walkin%27+jim
I will reschedule the WB get together to after the Walkin' Jim concert.

RedneckRye
10-06-2004, 14:45
I just printed the "extensive" schedule from the ALDHA site, and it appears to be a bit more sparse than in the last couple of years. Later on this evening I'm going to find schedules from 2000-2003 (they're in a box somewhere) and take a look. This may just be a misperception on my part, as quiet a few of the same events have been on the program every year, and I've already seen them. Or it may be that alot of ALDHA folks are New England based and chose not to make the drive south to do presentations. Anyhow, still very much looking forward to the weekend and seeing lots of old friends. Everyone drive safely!

Alligator
10-06-2004, 15:21
"Extensive" in that on Sat., one could spend just about all day (from 8:30 a.m. to midnight) moving from event to event. (Events in all time spots.) No comparison was intended between past Gatherings. This is my first one.

Spirit Walker
10-06-2004, 21:38
"I just printed the "extensive" schedule from the ALDHA site, and it appears to be a bit more sparse than in the last couple of years. Later on this evening I'm going to find schedules from 2000-2003 (they're in a box somewhere) and take a look."

You're right - the southern Gatherings generally have fewer workshops than the Hanover Gatherings. I don't know why the northern folks volunteer more than the southerners. People complain because there aren't more workshops and because the ones that are scheduled are so crowded - but they don't take it upon themselves to step forward and offer to present a workshop of their own.

Of course, at Hanover people complain because there are too many options and they can't get to some of the workshops or slideshows they'd like to see. Hard to please everyone. But if you want more workshops - you know what you have to do.

A-Train
10-06-2004, 23:52
Hey, this certainly may work to the advantage of those going to the Gathering this weekend. I thought that last years Gathering in Hanover was great, but regrettbly there was too much to do. I simply had to pick and choose what appealed the most. Often there were 2 or 3 great presentations going on at once. I really regret that I won't be able to attend Mag's presentation on the PCT as I'm gearing up for the long haul in either 05 or 06. It be great if anyone who goes to this workshop could report back and give some feedback regarding the info they learned.

Have fun all

chris
10-07-2004, 09:55
I was planning on going and giving a GDT slide show, but timing just isn't working out. I'd like to see some of the friends I made on the AT this summer and hear about the end of their trek, but with a 5 hour flight and 3 hour time change, I'd spend about 28 hours on the ground before having to come back. So, sadly, I'll go scramble in the Olympics.

warren doyle
10-07-2004, 11:38
As to the program, for a ten dollar registration fee for the entire weekend and an all-volunteer organization, the 23rd Annual ALDHA Gathering program looks pretty good to me!!! Not only is it pretty good, I think it is amazing. Thanks to all the workshop presenters for sharing their talents and experiences with the ALDHA tribe. I hope all have a safe trip to Pipestem.

PS - Alligator, I admire your hospitality to the WB's and I hope your neighbors do too! I hope nothing occurs at your shindig to hurt all the folks who will be dancing and watching the dancing from 9-midnight in the College Student Center Ballroom. Please remember that Concord College frowns upon intoxicated individuals on campus and we, the dancers and dance audience, will frown as well.

Lone Wolf
10-07-2004, 11:38
Where does one go Friday afternoon to check in, sign up, pay etc.? Where is the Friday night opening ceremony. The Folk Life Center and the college are two different places?

warren doyle
10-07-2004, 11:44
Registration is at the folklife center in Pipestem from noon-5pm on Friday.
The registration table will then move to the lobby of the Alexander Arts Center on the Concord University campus from 6-7pm where the evening program starts at 7pm.

Registration will continue back at the folklife center from 11-midnight Friday evening.

Registration on Saturday will be from 8am-4:30pm on the main floor of the Concord College Student Center.

Directions to both locations are on the ALDHA website - www.aldha.org

Lone Wolf
10-07-2004, 11:45
Thanks for the info.

Spirit Walker
10-07-2004, 15:45
You can pull up the schedule and maps on the ALDHA website.

Alligator
10-07-2004, 16:25
PS - Alligator, I admire your hospitality to the WB's and I hope your neighbors do too! I hope nothing occurs at your shindig to hurt all the folks who will be dancing and watching the dancing from 9-midnight in the College Student Center Ballroom. Please remember that Concord College frowns upon intoxicated individuals on campus and we, the dancers and dance audience, will frown as well.You mean the nice couple that lives in the BIG house on the corner;). I used to stop and chat with the missus while walking my dog. She's a very sunny person. The only bad thing I can think of that might happen to the folks in the ballroom is that a certain person's ears might be burning:D . Otherwise, I believe that our invitation clearly indicates that this is a socially responsible get together. So come on out WBer's!

MOWGLI
10-07-2004, 17:34
At the Gathering, I will be giving a presentation on Saturday at 1:00 PM on the Southern Appalchians Initiative. This is a joint project of American Hiking Society and the National Park Service that seeks to complete a 5,000-mile interconnected network of hiking trails in the Southeast.

With me will be representatives from the Georgia Pinhoti Trail Association, Cumberland Trail Conference, and the Pine Mountain Trail Conference. We'll be discussing the creation of a Western Appalachian Alternative - a long distance trail that will run parallel to the AT - to the west. I will also be providing an overview of the existing & proposed trail system in the SE.

Please attend if you can, or drop by and say hello if you plan to attend a different session. I'm looking forward to meeting as many of you as I can.

Jeffrey Hunter

TJ aka Teej
10-07-2004, 22:16
I hope nothing occurs at your shindig to hurt all the folks who will be dancing and watching the dancing from 9-midnight in the College Student Center Ballroom.
If the police show up, you can bet it was Warren Doyle who called them.

Alligator
10-08-2004, 16:44
If the police show up, you can bet it was Warren Doyle who called them.Hehehe. I'll be on the lookout, but the town officer may be off tomorrow.

I know it's getting late and some of you may actually be here, but we have a drive-in at Pipestem. http://driveins.4t.com/wv-athens-pipestem.htm

Any folks staying over on Sunday, it's $8 or $9 a carload on Sundays for the double feature. Movie starts at dusk. Might be the last weekend they are open.

Lone Wolf
10-10-2004, 18:19
Thanks to Alligator and his lovely wife for the open invite to Whiteblaze.netters to gather in their home last night for food and beverage. Mags and I were the only attendees. Too bad more didn't attend. Thanks again.

Jack Tarlin
10-11-2004, 16:13
I also want to thank Alligator for the personal invitation. The biggest problem with the Gathering is that there is simply not enough time to see everyone you want to, or to attend events you'd planned on attending. Nevertheless, lousy excuse. I'd looked forward to dropping by, I'd planned on doing so, and I regret that I missed it.

Sleepy the Arab
10-11-2004, 17:20
That's right - I was going to stop at the Whiteblaze get-together! Well, whoops, it slipped my mind.

Along with doing my nametag. I can get so absent minded.

Alligator
10-11-2004, 17:45
Thanks Wolf and Mags for stopping in. I know we had tough competition with the clogging ;) . On the plus side, we did not have to cook on Sun., the house was clean, we did a superb job of respecting my neighbors, and I have a fridge full of soda and beer (which won't go to waste):D .

Maybe next time.

warren doyle
10-11-2004, 18:53
TJ,

On what do you base your conclusion on?

Fact: I have never called the police in on anybody ever since I could use a phone, so that is about 48 years.

So why should I start now?

Alligator
10-11-2004, 20:53
While living in my current residence, I had to call the police on my next door neighbors. They used to leave their beautiful aikaida (sp) mix dog tied to a metal swing set often until midnight. There was no dog house and the dog was tied on a very short rope, which got tangled on the two poles. On several occasions, they left him out in pouring summer thunderstorms. Needless to say, the dog constantly barked. Bad dog? No, idiot owners.


One time, in a huge lightening deluge, I took him off his lead and stuck him in their house. I later heard he chewed up a bedroom set:D . He was a big dog. That would be my one time of breaking and entering, at least on purpose:-? .

Spirit Walker
10-12-2004, 16:46
I'm sorry about not stopping by on Saturday. I have been fighting the beginning of a cold all weekend and found that between that and being overwhelmed by all the people, (non-stop talking all day is fun, but exhausting) I ended the day too tired for any more socializing. We wanted to stop by the other campground and visit folks there on Sunday after the slideshows, but I was barely coherent by that time, so we just went back to the folklife center and crashed.

TJ aka Teej
10-12-2004, 18:54
On what do you base your conclusion on?
On your record, Warren. You are, as we say in Maine, a Pig-nut.
Congrats to the ALDHA membership for overwhelmingly voting you out of office for your behavior. Good riddance.

TJ

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2004, 19:06
Actually, Teej, the vote was very close, and hardly overwhelming. And also, it wasn't the entire membership....the votes came only from those who cared enough about the organization to attend the annual business meeting, which started early on Sunday morning.

And lastly, your comments are a dis-service to the fine people who were elected to the board. There were some truly excellent candidates on that slate, and the ones who finished at the top are all highly esteemed members of ALDHA. (And I say this with nothing but respect for Mags, who finished just out of the money. He has provided great service to the organization and I expect he'll continue to do so; his workshop on the Pacific Crest Trail that I attended was the finest presentation of its sort that I've seen since my first Gathering in 1994).

As far as Warren's finish in the election, Teej, there were several compelling factors, but a principal one, which your post omits to mention, is that there was an unusually strong group of folks running this year. ALDHA is a great organization with hundreds of wonderful members, and despite the ocasional argument that fragments or divides the membership, it is a most worthy organization and a very valuable resource. There are folks like Warren Doyle, Jim Owen, Bill O'Brien, and many others who've given hundreds and hundreds of hours over the years to keeping this group alive and vibrant, and they are to be commended for it.

Anyone interested in finding out more about ALDHA can go to www.aldha.org

Lone Wolf
10-12-2004, 19:10
Thanks for that post Jack. I was getting ready to go off in a not so eloquent way which is my nature. :D

TJ aka Teej
10-12-2004, 19:30
Actually, Teej, the vote was very close, and hardly overwhelming. And also, it wasn't the entire membership....the votes came only from those who cared enough about the organization to attend the annual business meeting, which started early on Sunday morning.

And lastly, your comments are a dis-service to the fine people who were elected to the board.
You need to read my comments again if you thought them aimed at anyone other than Warren, Jack. If they seem an actual disservice to anyone other than you, I apologize to them for my clumbsy phrasing. And of course it was just those who showed up Sunday moning who voted, as I did last year in NH when I voted for my good friend Magaroni and for Jim Owen - a human I truely respect. The new board members are a wonderful group, and I'm very pleased to have them represent our organization. Regarding your opinion that voting out the founder of ALDHA is 'hardly overwhelming', perhaps it's a matter of perspective.

TJ

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2004, 19:39
Teej, I'm not denying that Warren being voted out of office was significant or an important statement---of course it was, and it was a powerful indication that ALDHA might be moving in a different, and in my opinion, more positive direction. But what you clearly said was that the membership overwhelmingly voted him out.

And this is simply not the case. The voting results were decided by a comparative handful of people.

(This incidentally is yet another argument clearly displaying why we should ALL vote in every election that is offerred to us, but that's another subject!)

TJ aka Teej
10-12-2004, 20:00
But what you clearly said was that the membership overwhelmingly voted him out.

And this is simply not the case. The voting results were decided by a comparative handful of people.

The way I heard it (I was not there) the vote sounded "overwhelming," but I believe your report is truthful. Thanks for caring enough to correct my misrepresentation of the vote.


This incidentally is yet another argument clearly displaying why we should ALL vote in every election that is offerred to us...
More truth from Jack! :D

Mags
10-13-2004, 12:03
(And I say this with nothing but respect for Mags, who finished just out of the money. He has provided great service to the organization and I expect he'll continue to do so; his workshop on the Pacific Crest Trail that I attended was the finest presentation of its sort that I've seen since my first Gathering in 1994).



Well thanks for the kind words. I tend to be low key, and as such not known as well by members of ALDHA who have been there a while (esp. those who are not in the on-line portion of our community). Tend to work more in the background. Anyway, glad I could help out for two years; was encouraged to run again next year by a few people who are actively involved with ALDHA. Sure the current board members will do a terrific job.

About the PCT workshop, I ran out of hand outs, but have the hand out online if anyone is curious and/or needs it:
http://www.magnanti.com/miscwritings/pct_ws.htm

chris
10-13-2004, 15:15
As I was unfortunately absent, could someone fill me in on how the No Alcohol at Pipestem worked out? That is, did people generally obey this? Were there any problems. I skimmed through a few posts, but I can't seem to find much on this.

Lone Wolf
10-13-2004, 15:20
Yes there was drinking at the Folklife Center. Also 5 people were caught drinking alcohol inside the chapel and were asked to leave the grounds.

Jack Tarlin
10-13-2004, 15:31
Chris, in brief:

1. There were no "problems" that I am aware of so far as noise, rowdiness,
fights, people getting, sick, or other alcohol-related incidents.

2. There was indeed public drinking, and some of it was excessive. More
than a few people were clearly impaired. There is no doubt that many
of these folks were aware of the Center's rules and policies and elected
to ignore them.

3. There was little or no enforcement of the Center's alcohol policies, except
an attempt to admonish and expel some folks who, it now turns out, were
drinking with the knowledge and permision of Folklife Center officials; this
made it very clear that whatever "official" policies actually existed, it was
obvious that the Center and its administrators had no intention of making
such a big deal about alcohol and its moderate social use. It became
further clear that those who DID make a big deal of telling everyone
about the Center's policies chose to make a major issue out of something
that the Folklife center evidently felt could be handled on an informal
basis. It is unfortunate that this confusion led to some problems, which
could have been avoided had certain individuals, with a clear personal
agenda, had not taken it upon themselves to make a grand hullaballoo
about a matter that seemed relatively minor to the folks at the Center,
who clearly seem to think that responsible and moderate consumption of
alcohol, though technically against their rules, is not something that they
wished to make such a fuss about.

Lone Wolf
10-13-2004, 15:37
But is it officially against Folklife Center rules? I couldn't find anything on their website about NO ALCOHOL. There was no signage at the center itself that forbade alcohol.

Jack Tarlin
10-13-2004, 16:11
Good point, Wolf. Two possibilities: Someone could get in touch with Folklife center administration and ask them about this, but I'd just as soon leave these good folks alone. These are our hosts and our friends, and they probably feel uncomfortable getting further involved in this messy and avoidable situation, a situation that was hardly their fault: After all, it wasn't them who was running around before the Gathering making such a tempest about the alcohol issue.

I agree with folks like bunbun, who has stated that in order to get better informed on the matter,we need to hear from the Aldha officials who were principally responsible for this whole episode in the first place.

If an individual or group took it upon themselves to make such a big deal about alcohol; its use; and the Folklife Center expectations BEFORE the Gathering, then I think it's important that they address people's concerns AFTER the event is over.

In a few days, the events we're discussing will be a week old. It would certainly be helpful if we heard more from the folks whose words and actions were responsible for this whole situation in the first place.

To stir up a pot of troubles and then walk away after the pot boils over and makes a gigantic mess.....well, this is a bit troubling. If we were mis-informed about the Center's rules because the rules are unclear, then we need to hear about this. If the person wo took it upon himself to hector everyone under the sun about these rules was himself mis-informed, then we need to hear that, too. And if this person did in fact know what the situation was, but went ahead and mis-led a lot of folks anyway, well this also needs to be addressed. In short, raising a whirlwind, and staying in hiding when folks are assessing the storm damage ain't exactly a profile in courage.

TJ aka Teej
10-13-2004, 19:09
To stir up a pot of troubles and then walk away after the pot boils over and makes a gigantic mess.....well, this is a bit troubling. If we were mis-informed about the Center's rules because the rules are unclear, then we need to hear about this. If the person who took it upon himself to hector everyone under the sun about these rules was himself mis-informed, then we need to hear that, too. And if this person did in fact know what the situation was, but went ahead and mis-led a lot of folks anyway, well this also needs to be addressed. In short, raising a whirlwind, and staying in hiding when folks are assessing the storm damage ain't exactly a profile in courage.It wasn't "mis-information" from Warren.
It was "disinformation."

dis∑in∑for∑ma∑tion
Pronunciation: (")di-"sin-f&r-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 1939
: false information deliberately and often covertly spread (as by the planting of rumors) in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth

Pig-nut
"Brother," Cap said, "he's a Pig-nut!"
"Pig-nut?" I asked.
"Pig-nut," Cap repeated. "You can tell a man with brains he's wrong and he'll try to fix things up: but you take and tell a pig-nut he's wrong, and he'll spend the rest of his life trying to have something heavy fall on you when you ain't looking."

-from Kenneth Robert's 1933 novel "Rabble in Arms"
TJ

Jester2000
10-13-2004, 20:09
Regarding Jack's post #36 -- Man, I haven't seen a sentences that long since I read "As I Lay Dying."

As for the rest:
The Election -- As Warren said on Sunday, any one of the candidates were excellent choices to represent us and do what they think best for the organization and the trail community. The vote, while perhaps sending an overwhelming message, was close. Close enough that the votes had to be counted more than once, for a period of time lengthy enough for me to smoke three cigarettes.

The Official Campground -- There was certainly drinking, as evidenced by the trash cans full of empties, and, well, by the people sitting around drinking. I didn't notice any more drinking or any less from previous years, although admittedly I have only attended five of these things.

One (of two that I am aware) Unofficial Campground -- Had a great time, our hosts were marvelous and welcoming and accomodating. They invited us back, but told us not to wait two years. I wish I could have spent more time with my friends staying at the official site, but perhaps by next year we can all be together again.

warren doyle
10-13-2004, 20:36
TJ,

"Overwhelming"??

FYI, this wasn't the first time I did not receive enough votes to serve as a voting member of the steering committee, and I expect that it will not be the last time either. Before the vote was taken, the five candidates for the three steering committee positions were allowed to to do a short speech. I mentioned to the membership that I had faith in all five candidates and that if I wasn't elected that I would still attend steering committee meetings ( I haven't missed any since the start 1982-83) and I would do all I could to help ALDHA fulfill its mission/goals. But of course you didn't know that because you weren't there but still formed an opinion on your own - which I know that you are quite adept at.

"Good riddance"?
Hardly. Only in your dreams, TJ.

Congrats to Jojo, Red Wolf and Bill O'Brien and thanks to Mags for his stint on the board and all his contributions to past Gatherings.

On to other posts:

As to the alcohol policy at the folklife center, there was a policy at the folklife center until the mid-1990's and it was strictly enforced. There still is a policy at the center.

Two years ago at the last Gathering, before I left on Monday afternoon, I went to check the campfire ring and for the first time ever saw two barrels full of alcohol containers. Shelli, the ASFC Director was also chagrined. We decided that if the Gathering was held again at Pipestem in 2004, that the alcohol policy would be strictly enforced. We also got complaints on the evaluations about noisy behavior by people who were drinking.

Last year at Hanover, we received several complaints about noisy behavior by people who were drinking at Storrs Pond. Based on those incidents, during the 2002-2003 Gatherings, the ALDHA steering committee decided to ban alcohol at the folklife center for the 2004 Gathering (since the folklife center already had a policy in place) and to try to figure out a way to prevent another reoccurrence at Storrs Pond for the 2005 Gathering. Stacy (ALDHA Coordinator) wrote an article concerning this group decision for the ALDHA Website and I informed the white blaze.net on-line membership of these group decisions. It was apparent that the vast majority of steering committee members did not want the Gathering to turn into Trail Days by being overly commercialized or having a 'party atmosphere'. There are hikers now that don't go to Trail Days because of one or both of these reasons.

Besides, there now are several get-togethers (i.e., Trashgiving, Rucks, White Blaze) appearing where the alcohol policy is more lax where hikers can get together to share their journies.

For this year's Gathering, as far as I know there were no complaints of noisy, rowdy behavior and the campfires were quieter. The barrels that were full of bottles/cans two years ago were practically empty of said containers. Mission accomplished.

The Saturday night drinking-in-the-chapel incident was unfortunate and I talked to Shelli the ASFC Director about it on Monday morning. I hope she posts a reply here so you can get the information behind the incident directly.

It was a great Gathering. Thanks to all who shared their experiences and to those who helped make things run smooth (i.e. registration, parking at folklife center).

orangebug
10-13-2004, 21:06
Besides, there now are several get-togethers (i.e., Trashgiving, Rucks, White Blaze) appearing where the alcohol policy is more lax where hikers can get together to share their journies.

As the founder of the SORUCK, I'd like to know of any problems encountered in any of our editions regarding alcohol or other substances. The 2004 and 2005 SORUCKs were/will be held in Thornwell Camp with a strict no EtOH policy. Prior SORUCKs held at Amicalola Falls State Park only attracted police attention due to parkingissues. We have considered our hosts' rules as Law.

I've not been privy to similar problems experienced with any version of the PARUCK. Neither RUCK has been nearly as controversial as Trail Days or recent Gatherings.

Please do not include RUCKs in these controversies. I encourage you to consider attending either RUCK. SORUCK will be MLK weekend, PARUCK will be SuperBowl weekend. Registration fees are quite reasonable.

Bill...

Jack Tarlin
10-13-2004, 21:10
I'll probably have more to say on this later. Right now, I have other more pressing and far more pleasant priorities, such as the Red Sox game.

But for now, let me just say that it's wonderful that Mr. Doyle has seen fit to join this discussion, and I'm sure it's no coincidence at all that his finally making a public statement here occurred only after he'd been effectively challenged to do so.

Time is short, but one thing is significant. NOWHERE in his letter did Mr. Doyle address the key and principle issue of folks' deciding for themselves which rules apply to the world at large, and which can be selectively ignored by hikers who think they're somehow above them.

Until Mr. Doyle acknowledges that no hiker---including himself---has the right to say and do whatever they damned please out there, and so long as he continues to encourage others to behave improperly, then I submit that he's missed the entire point of this discussion, which is this:

If you're going to get your knickers in a twist about the behavior of others, it's incumbent upon you to make sure your own house is in order. This is KEY to this discussion, and it's clearly apparent that Mr. Doyle just doesn't get it.


P.S. to Warren: Would have told you this earlier, but you've been away for awhile: If you still have questions about the group of hikers that stayed at the Bent Resort---who they were, how many there were, how they behaved, etc.---I'm sure Kathy at the resort would be happy to speak with you some more, in case you missed anything during your intelligence foray on Monday. But I gotta tell you, she's really curious as to why you're so interested. Quite frankly, she didn't seem to think it was any of your business.

Jester2000
10-13-2004, 23:27
So what we seem to be hearing is that Warren's main objection is to litter, and his secondary consideration is noise. Fair play.

He might be interested to know (or not) that the reason that trash was in the barrels and not lying around the firepit (in 2002) is that BILLVILLE members picked up after EVERYONE on Sunday morning. If we had been made aware that the Folk Life Center was unable to handle that amount of refuse, we would have carted it off, as we did with our own trash at that event AND at the event in Hanover last year (last year we did it every morning, as we had a larger number of non-Billville members visiting and it was necessary so as to maintain a clean site). Come to think of it, Bag 'o' Trix and some other assorted trash also policed the official campfire site last year, 'tho we only dropped by there for a visit due to the request that there be no alcohol at the official fire.

As for noise, I'm sure we could have come to some accomodation regarding that. That lower field on the other side of the fire from the regular camping area did look to me like a pretty good place to put people who wanted to stay up a bit later -- located far away, on the other side of the firepit, down in a valley kind of thing. As I'm no expert on the way sound travels, that may not have been enough. In which case making sure that an emphasis on QUIET rather that ALCOHOL might have been appropriate. Lord knows there were enough people drinking at the official site this past weekend. So THAT apparently wasn't the problem.

Since we've heard about the conditions at the official site from Warren, and he didn't really learn anything negative to report from our camp while he was on his fishing expedition, I'll let you know the following: trash properly disposed of, grounds policed for butts and caps, a good time had by all, no noise complaints from owners living on-site, business owners thrilled to meet us, host us, invite us back for next time. Warren, care to confirm (since I know she told you that much)?

warren doyle
10-14-2004, 14:50
The two campsites at the 2004 Gathering gave the majority of the people what they wanted. Thanks again to Ms. Janet for making the connection with Bent Mt.
My visit to the Bent Mt. Campground on Monday morning (I also visited it early Friday morning) was nothing more than my traditional post-Gathering check-up which also included the following:

the folklife center and talking with Shelli the Director

and at Concord College:

dining services
college center director
security
athletic department
McNair Program
Admissions office
Alexander Arts Center administration
Geography Dept.
Concord Film Society faculty advisor
Science Dept.
Social Science Dept.
and a wonderful one-hour conversation with President Beasley

I have done this post-Gathering check-up for fifteen years now as part of my responsibilities as Gathering coordinator or Gathering site coordinator, and it is one of the reasons why we still have a Gathering in Pipestem/Athens.

I hope this fact eases the mild paranoia displayed in some of the posts on this thread.

Happy trails to all!

Jack Tarlin
10-14-2004, 15:14
Warren---

1. Your usual post Gathering check-up which you mention, does not mean it is
necessary or proper to investigate other ALDHA members, or where they
choose to spend time at the Gathering. It certainly doesn't make it
proper for you to ask business owners how many customers they had, how
many stayed overnight, etc. This is simply none of your business.

2. I also see that you're still incapable of acknowledging that there were no
problems of ANY SORT WHATSOEVER at the Bent resort. This has been
pointed out to you repeatedly, and you've been directly asked to publicly
acknowledge that this is so. You deliberately chose not to do so. You
took the time to snoop all over the place, but you discovered you were
wasting your time. This one really must stick in your craw. Too bad.

3. While visiting our hostess at the Bent center, you identified yourself as an
ALDHA official. Actually, this was not strictly accurate, as you well know.
At the time of your second visit, you were merely another member.

4. You mention that having two campsites gave the majority of the people
what they wanted. Once again, inaccurate and incomplete. I submit that
it was the Board election results that most clearly reflected what the
majority of the members present really wanted.

5. You speak of "mild paranoia". I don't think this was much present at the
Gathering. What was indeed present, was more than mild displeasure over
the direction the organization was going, and more than mild displeasure
over the behavior, statements, and actions of certain alleged "leaders" in
the organization. This was also addressed at the Board meeting, as the
election results confirm.

warren doyle
10-14-2004, 15:48
Mr. Tarlin:

1) I didn't ask how many customers they had and how many stayed overnight.

2) If parking my car near the office parking lot and standing next to it is " snoop all over the place" than I guess you interpret human movement differently than I would, and I expect differently than many others would as well. I wasn't wasting my time. Nothing 'stuck in my craw'. Nice view there.

3) I identified myself as with the hikers and that I had just coordinated the Gathering.

5) "mild paranoia" ? Examples of your wording in your post:
investigate
snoop all over the place

Happy trails to all (even the unhappy)!

chomp
10-14-2004, 16:09
...included the following:

the folklife center and talking with Shelli the Director

and at Concord College:
... The way I see it, the Folklife Center and Concord College have an official, business relationship with ALDHA. Maintaining said business relationship is just that, good business. Checking in on Bent Mountain.. well that is clearly outside of any business relationship. You didn't check with any State Parks in the area or other campgrounds? So really, the only non-ALDHA-affiliated place that you checked on is where a certain group of people were camping. That's not paranoia, Warren, that is fact.

In fact, Warren, you went to great lengths to make sure that everyone knew that ALDHA would only be sponsoring one camping area:

Warren Says: "There are alternative campsites in the Pipestem/Concord College area that have already been posted here. No one is stopping anyone from contacting these areas on their own as individuals. In all probability, the only site that ALDHA will be officially sponsoring will be the folklife center."

Also, there is this:

For this year's Gathering, as far as I know there were no complaints of noisy, rowdy behavior and the campfires were quieter. The barrels that were full of bottles/cans two years ago were practically empty of said containers. Mission accomplished.

So why look any further? You accomplished your mission - but that wasn't enough. You wanted to be able to come back here and to ALDHA and say that a certain group they you eliminated caused trouble at another location, that is why. And for all the empty trash containers, there was still a major drinking problem (the chapel) at the FLC.

And just in case anyone thinks that this is still paranoia, while digging for the above quote, I found these gems:

"If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering."

which goes with this one...

"I might suggest that the long distance hiking alcohol users, since there appears to be sufficient numbers now, organize themselves and have there own 'gathering' someplace else."

Sounds like Warren wants a very specific membership at the gatherings. At least he isn't on the board anymore. Oh, I found this very untrue quote as well:

"The two main venues for the 2004 Gathering allow no alcohol.
This will be strictly enforced at the Appalachian South Folklife center."

The above mission was clearly not accomplished. Maybe if this policy was enforced better, there would not have been a problem of drinking in the chapel.

Jester2000
10-15-2004, 15:19
It's kind of difficult in my mind to figure out why our host would, minutes after talking with Mr. Doyle, claim that he had asked a number of times how many people had stayed at her campground, or that she had invited him to come inside and look at her register after his repeated requests (an offer which, according to her, he declined).

Why would she tell us that, if, as Mr. Doyle claims, he did not ask? Personally, I think it's a minor point, and one not really worth lying about, but if anyone really wants to find out what happened during that conversation, they shouldn't believe me, as I was not there (I base my info on what I was told by the owner).

They should call Bent Mountain Resort, and ask Kathy. The number there is (304)382-3491. Their website is www.bentmountain.net, and I believe you can access their email through that site. I would only ask that they not be inundated with unnecessary phone calls; they've got a business to run and don't really need to be dragged into all of this. But Kathy is a friendly, outgoing person, and probably won't mind meeting a couple of you over the phone.

You could also, I suppose, ask her how Warren introduced himself, which he did by saying that he was the "Founder of Aldha" (an absolutely true statement, but one that implies an official visit rather that a casual "I'm with the hikers" kind of thing).

Personally, I think that I had many meaningful conversations with other Aldha members that outweigh this counterproductive nonsense, and so I will say no more about it, short of this:

I get along fine with people who try to do the right thing, and I also get along fine with people who recognize when they make mistakes, own up to them, and apologize. I don't hold grudges with people who do so, and I try to move forward with them.

Frosty
10-15-2004, 16:15
They should call Bent Mountain Resort, and ask Kathy. The number there is *****. Their website is *****, and I believe you can access their email through that site. I would only ask that they not be inundated with unnecessary phone calls; they've got a business to run and don't really need to be dragged into all of this. I really hope no one calls and bothers this woman, and it would be nice if you edited your post and removed the phone number.

None of this serves any purpose that I can see, and to expand the WHiteblaze internal bickering to campgrounds can do no good to the hiking community.

smokymtnsteve
10-15-2004, 16:32
what your membership dues for ALDHA are really for is to publish a newsletter and to be listed in the yearbook, you know receive more JUNK in the mail, I paid dues and when i found out that they are just de facto subscription to a yearbook,, I said no thanks,

seems what you get is a bunch of folks internal arguing about policies, If I had wanted to be a member of an argument I would have stayed married to my first wife.

Chappy
10-16-2004, 11:03
what your membership dues for ALDHA are really for is to publish a newsletter and to be listed in the yearbook, you know receive more JUNK in the mail, I paid dues and when i found out that they are just de facto subscription to a yearbook,, I said no thanks,

seems what you get is a bunch of folks internal arguing about policies, If I had wanted to be a member of an argument I would have stayed married to my first wife.
Smoky,
I continue to be impressed by your humor. Hope you're still feeling well. :)

Jack Tarlin
10-16-2004, 18:54
Mr. Doyle:

Your explanations and evasions are as weak as your performance in the recent ALDHA election.

I note that despite several requests, you STILL have a problem telling us what the owner of the Bent Resort had to say about the folks that stayed there.

It has been stated here several times that the owners were delighted with us, that there were absolutely no problems that weekend, and that they'd love to have us back.

You have been asked to confirm that this is EXACTLY what you were told by the owner of the establishment. You've been asked this several times.

The fact that you're incapable of doing this says a great deal about you.
Nothing we didn't already know, mind you. But it reaffirms it. A small man runs from the truth. And the smaller man hides from it.

I understand you had a rough weekend, Mr. Doyle. You made a big deal of letting folks know about the rules and regulations at the Folklife Center. Then it turned out that your diligence in this matter was based on exaggerations or untruths---it is now clear that the management of the Center has no problems whatsoever with responsible drinking. Plus, it's obvious that enforcement of this "ban" was either poor, or non-existent; it's clear that your crusading on this matter was directed at a small group of folks whose weekend you wanted to control or better yet, cancel altogether. Your attempts to find faults with these folks REGARDLESS of where they ended up camping was a dismal failure, tho you're not man enough to publicly acknowledge this. And to top it off, the organization that you founded and helped lead for two decades said in no uncertain terms that you were the
LAST person on the elective slate that they wanted in an ALDHA leadership position. Plain and simply, the organization that you've treated like a plaything for years is anything but; it musta hurt when your favorite wind-up toy decided to boot your behind out the door. Don't worry. It's only been six days. I'm sure you'll be able to sit down again soon.

So I understand why you're kind of testy; you had a fairly rough weekend. All of which you brought on yourself.

And lastly, Mr. Doyle, you wished Happy Trails to everyone, even the unhappy. I assure you and everyone else, most of the folks in ALDHA are very happy indeed: They have three excellent new people on the Board, and they've sent a clear message that the organization is heading in a new direction, which is long overdue.

You've been a disruptive influence at the ALDHA Gathering twice since 2001. The vote in the last election is proof positive that the organization is sick of this.

As I am sick of this conversation. See ya in a few days, I'm going hiking.

weary
10-16-2004, 21:27
Warren---

5. You speak of "mild paranoia". I don't think this was much present at the
Gathering. .

I can't comment about the gathering since I didn't attend, but a bit more than "mild" paranoia seems to be brewing on this thread.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
10-17-2004, 00:52
TJ,

"Overwhelming"??The founder of ALDHA finished LAST in the balloting.
Sixth place out of six choices.
Almost as overwhelming an event as when dozens of ALDHA members walked out on your "poetry" reading at the '01 Gathering. I didn't walk out, I just booed. I thought from your pop-eyed, red faced, fist shaking, and shouting, you were just drunk - until the folks I was sitting with explained such behavior wasn't unusual from you. Your latest episode just confirms the opinon I formed of you that night.

WalkinHome
10-26-2004, 19:19
Hi All,

Hope TJ doesn't mind me poaching his thread but wanted to let you know the pictures of Billville at the Gathering are up if you are interested. Some adult content and a very large beer in evidence. Enjoy.

http://gallery.backcountry.net/album49