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Trail Dog
10-07-2004, 01:05
Ever since I was a boyscout I was reassured that wearing wool was a great option because it has the uncanny ability of "keeping you warm even when wet", amongst other reasons.

Now a book I am reading challenges that idea
'Secrets of Warmth for Comfort or Survival' by Hal Weiss

So myth or fact? Does wool keep you warm even when wet?

highway
10-07-2004, 06:05
...wearing wool was a great option because it has the uncanny ability of "keeping you warm even when wet"...

Now a book I am reading challenges that idea
'Secrets of Warmth for Comfort or Survival' by Hal Weiss

So myth or fact? Does wool keep you warm even when wet?

Now that's interesting.I have always heard that it does and just accepted it as so. But I wonder if it is another of those myths or "urban legends" for backpackers like "one must filter all water on the AT" or "heavy boots are needed for trekking/backpacking", both of which I already know are wrong.

Hmmm...I guess a "snopes.com" for backpacking myths and urban legends would be nice to have, wouldn't it? How about it Attroll?

Anyway, other than my Smartwool socks, I seldom use wool anymore for backpacking as it's heavy.

orangebug
10-07-2004, 06:09
Your body will still have to develop heat to dry the wool. That will cool you. Wool fibers won't collapse as readily as cotton, leaving some protection from wind.

Poly will similarly require body heat to evaporate water. The fabled wicking properties are shared with wool. The only difference is whether wool or poly will reduce wind penetration to keep the cooling further away from your skin.

I think the myth is that any sort of wet fabric could keep you warm.

kncats
10-07-2004, 07:07
The ability of any material, be it fleece, wool, down or whatever, to keep you warm depends on the air pockets in the fabric. The fibers of wool are naturally wavy or crimped and do not collapse on themselves when wet like down does and so maintain these insulating pockets of air. Fleece and other synthetic insulations work the same way. The lanolin content of the wool fiber, along with the hard scales covering the protein fiber, prevent the wool from absorbing as much water as other natural fibers. In any insulating material used for clothing, natural or synthetic, the presence of water vapor or liquid water in these air pockets will increase the rate of heat transfer from the warmer body to the colder air, but the insulating value does not go away completely.

Peaks
10-07-2004, 07:59
Well, the theory is that a natural anamal fiber, such as wool is intended to keep an animal warm in part by wicking moisture away from skin. A plant fiber, such as cotton is intended to hold moisture needed for the plant. So, wool will keep you warmer than cotton because it keeps you drier.

How does wool hold up against synthetic fleece? I find wool to be more wind resistant than fleece. The wind blows right through my fleece.

Certainly any fabric is going to be cold when wet. And the wetter it is, the more heat loss there is going to be. But fleece seems to dry faster than wool and cotton.

kentucky
10-07-2004, 09:58
I have used wool for the last several years on my hikes and can say when I get wet Im still warm!as far as Im concern I say fact,and wool does dry fairly quik from body heat.Kentucky:clap

Footslogger
10-07-2004, 10:43
A loosely knitted wool garment won't do much but I believe the stories about wool are based on the densely woven wool sweaters and socks. Example ...I still have my wool "OG" shirt and pants from the army (circa 1968). I did a tour in western Europe and literally lived in those garments. They really did work and I got them plenty wet at times.

But ...like most others have pointed out, wool garments (especially the densely woven variety) tend to be on the heavy side and might not be the best way to go if you're trying to keep your pack weight down. There are a lot of other synthetic substitutes that will do the trick (wet or dry).

Anyhew ...just my .02

'Slogger
AT 2003

Tha Wookie
10-07-2004, 11:02
It works for bighorn sheep!

Trail Dog
10-07-2004, 11:45
With the wetness factor i was reading that the difference between wool and other sinthetic fibers is wool absorbs the moisture from both your sweat and the environment inside the wool molecules itself. Synthetic fibers as i understand it hold the moisture between the molecules, thus allowing the wicking effect, and making for much easier drying.

The number i was given is that moisture will cause heat transfer 250 times as great as air, this must be one reason a person who falls in a frozen lake is better off naked than in his wet clothing, as long as you can protect him from the wind and its not for too long.

Also drying any fabric while wearing it takes body heat. In conditions of only mild temperatures, above 30 F or so this is fine, at worst uncomfortable. However if your talking really cold in the neg F then you must realize that can kill. Its easier to stay warm then to get warm.

orangebug
10-07-2004, 13:14
Also drying any fabric while wearing it takes body heat. In conditions of only mild temperatures, above 30 F or so this is fine, at worst uncomfortable. However if your talking really cold in the neg F then you must realize that can kill. Its easier to stay warm then to get warm.
One can get into hypothermia pretty easily in the 50's. The issue is core body temperature, not ambient air temperature.

Rocalousas
10-28-2004, 19:45
One of my favorite sweaters ever was a wool sweater I bought at an outdoor store. It was always warm and very comfortable. I don't have it anymore, but even if I did I wouldn't take it backpacking because it would be too heavy. And if it did get wet, it'd be 3 times the weight.

Doctari
10-29-2004, 00:58
I think what is missing here is that wool will keep you warm when wet, BETTER THAN COTTON, or many other fabrics. A friend of mine (MD, director of nationally recognized SAR team, wilderness survival instructor) once said "jeans take 3 years to dry". One note tho, you need to be careful when washing wool, to avoid removing the natural oils (Lanolin) from the wool, which aids in keeping it dryer.

I no longer wear my wool pants & jacket due to weight considerations, but I still carry a wool vest & hat on every hike.

Doctari.

tlbj6142
10-29-2004, 09:16
Wool base layers are the way to go (Fine Merino wool that is). It wicks better than any synthetic material and best of all it doesn't stink! For those of us that have something weird in our sweat that make poly clothes stink 10 minutes after we put it on, wool is a god send.

When I wear my poly base layers (cheapo shirt form Galyan's or my Patagonia mid-weights), I get this weird nasty funk smell about an hour after I start hiking. Two days later it makes me gag. This isn't an issue with wool. Only smell I had to deal with was BO, which is far better than that other stench.

www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com/) did a great write up on merino wool a while back. I'm too lazy to find it now, but its worth the read.


The only real problem with Merino wool is that it is expensive. Smartwool and Ibex are probably the leading vendors, but there are a few more.

Mags
10-29-2004, 11:03
I think a better way to describe wool is "Will keep you warm when damp". Any clothing will suck the heat out of you if sopping wet. Cotton just happens to be the worse in the sense that its fibers will collapse quicker and takes longer to dryout. Wool really does have some properties to keep you warm when very damp. As OB pointed out, if wet, you will use much energy to dry it out.

I use wool liner gloves because I do find them warmer when a little damp as opposed to poly liners. One of these days, going to invest in some wool base layer underwear because of how plesed I am with the liner gloves.

In general, I also find wool to be warmer than synthetics as well. I have a Filson Mackinaw Jacket. Besides being nearly indestructable, this heavy (24 oz virgin wool) jacket will repel wind and is the warmest piece of clothing I own. (Don't think even my down jacket is quite as warm) I'd feel safe in a blizzard! But, it also very heavy and is not something I would wear in an active outdoor environment. This jacket was originally designed way back when for stop and go activities anyway (i.e. hunting, fishing, and other Nick Adams-esque type activities. :) )


Wool still has its place in the outdoors. And though I think the "warm when wet" is a bit of hyperbole, "warm when very damp" is not.

My experience any way.

tlbj6142
10-29-2004, 11:18
In general, I also find wool to be warmer than synthetics as well.Merino wool base layers (at least those form Smartwool and Ibex) come if various thickness just like synthetics. I have a LS "summer weight" shirt from Ibex that is just about paper thin. I'd equate it to "silk weight" or maybe thinner.

I didn't notice a "warmer than synthetics" feeling on my last trip, but then it was fairly cool (barely reach 70F and was often windy). I had my windshirt over my base layer just about any time I was above the tree line as it was just too cool even while hiking in full sun.

There were, however, a few times I wish I had spent the extra couple of dollars (and ounces) and bought the zip version.

Mags
10-29-2004, 12:04
I didn't notice a "warmer than synthetics" feeling on my last trip, but then it was fairly cool (barely reach 70F and was often windy). I had my windshirt over my base layer just about any time I was above the tree line as it was just too cool even while hiking in full sun.



I find for winter use wool feels a bit warmer. Suspect because if I sweat a little bit, wool is still warm when a little damp. It seems a more "forgiving" fabric for winter use. YMMV.

Kozmic Zian
10-29-2004, 21:21
I find for winter use wool feels a bit warmer. Suspect because if I sweat a little bit, wool is still warm when a little damp. It seems a more "forgiving" fabric for winter use. YMMV.Yea.....Mags.....The only thing about wool that is detrimental is that it gets very heavy when wet. Especially a jacket. Merino is a little better, but still dosen't dry as fast as polypropolene. Polypro does get 'the funks' a little quicker, but I'll pack it 1st because it agrees with my 'wear factor' and dries and washes well. Wool is just too heavy in most cases. Takes too long to dry in most cases. Hi-tec polypro is getting better at gettin' the funks out too. Try the Patagonia or Marmot or the better manufacturers. The best of the best is really good these days. Makes wearing anything else (cept maybe merino wool) just plain outdated. I have tried silk and like it very much tho', so all natural fibers are 'not out' as far as a serviceable under clothing is concerned. Try the silk if you can't wear polypro. It seems to dry as quickly and wash as well, a viable alternative to wearing plastic. KZ@

FatMan
10-29-2004, 21:53
Fact - Wool does keep you warmer than most other materials when wet.

Alot of good points so far, with the best point concerning backpacking being that although wool will keep you warmer when wet than most other materials, and it gets very heavy. The two points go hand in hand. This is what I've learned about the topic. Now try to stay with me on this.

Each wool fiber (measuring about a thousandth of an inch in diameter, depending on the grade) consists of a bundle of corticle cells, made up of polypeptide chains arranged in coils. These corticle cells are wrapped up in a scaly outer layer called a cuticle, which in turn is covered by a filmy skin called an epicuticle. The epicuticle actually sheds drops of water.
In addition, raindrops are less likely to break up on the surface of wool and seep through than with other fabrics, since the fuzziness of the fibers cushions the fall. So in a light rain, much of the water runs right off, the fabric hardly getting damp at all.

But the real genius of the wool fiber lies in its ability to cope with the high humidity that you may get during rainstorms or at other times. The sheep (they may look stupid, but it's all an act) have cleverly equipped the epicuticle with tiny pores that allow water vapor to pass through to the core, where it's chemically absorbed. A single fibre can slurp up to 30 percent of its own weight in moisture without feeling wet, but it does get heavy.

Wool also acts as a natural insulator, thanks to its built-in crimp. The fibers repel each other, keeping a bit of dead air in between them. But it's the epicuticle that does the heavy lifting when it comes to keeping you warm despite the wet.

CanoeBlue
10-29-2004, 22:09
A few years ago I dumped a canoe among the ice floes of a local river (don't ask) ... got the canoe to shore, dumped it out and paddled like heck to get back to the car. The morning was cold enough that I had difficulty tying the canoe back on to the car because every time the wet rope contacted the aluminum car rack it froze to it.

I was wearing woolen long underwear with synthetic "river pants", a wool shirt and a fleece jacket. What I couldn't understand was why I wasn't feeling really, really cold and it wasn't hypothermia.

I was told later that in effect the water drained from the woolen long underwear that I was wearing and with the "river pants" over the top acted much like a wet suit that trapped warm air in the mesh of the wool.

I don't know if that is a reasonable explanation or not, but ever after that, fall and winter canoeing - I wear wool (except in whitewater - then it's a goretex drysuit)

tarbubble
10-30-2004, 12:55
It works for bighorn sheep!
yup, but their coats are still saturated with lanolin, which repels water & keeps their fleece from getting soaked. if you were to maintain a level of lanolin in a wool garment, it would also be water-repellant and resist getting soaked. restoring lanolin to a wool garment is a greasy job, and most commercial wool garments have had the lanolin washed out. nobody wants a greasy sweater!

bobgessner57
10-30-2004, 13:44
yup, but their coats are still saturated with lanolin, which repels water & keeps their fleece from getting soaked. if you were to maintain a level of lanolin in a wool garment, it would also be water-repellant and resist getting soaked. restoring lanolin to a wool garment is a greasy job, and most commercial wool garments have had the lanolin washed out. nobody wants a greasy sweater!

Back in the mid '70's my winter top layers were a Peter Storm brand oiled wool sweater and a light nylon shell. The sweater was supposedly a British? fisherman's sweater. It was tightly knitted and would shed all but a pouring rain. It wasn't unpleasantly greasy but you could feel the lanolin in it and as I recall there were cautions about how to launder it. Warm as toast and wind resistant, too. I would love to have another one for day use but I don't remember how much it weighed, not sure if I would backpack it now. At the time I carried it rather than down because I knew it might get wet. It was heavier than a down parka but lighter and less bulky than other options I looked at.

My current fall, winter, spring gear choices include an assortment of light merino and regular wool shirts, pants, and hats. I find that the combination of wool and a fleece or just wool and a breathable shell is very comfortable even when damp. I try and keep it from getting soaked and have been able to dry damp to moderately wet light wool garments on me in the sleeping bag or spread beside me in the bag. Many of my wool items have been snarfed at thrift shops for a fraction of the cost of new technical fabrics. Look for light wool dress pants, light Pendleton shirts, merino sweaters, etc. Many are adaptable as backpacking gear.

Mags
10-31-2004, 16:39
is that it gets very heavy when wet. Especially a jacket.


As I said, I think wool baselayer lining garments are great.

I love my Smartwool liner gloves. They dry quickly, are very versatile, light and seem to be warmer than any synthetic liners I wear. I suspect the Smartwool base layerunderwear would perform similarly. I get the gloves on sale at Campmor. If I find a similar deal for the wool baselayer, probably would buy a pair.

FWIW, I do a TON of winter activities here in Colorado. Heck, I even made an igloo to sleep in last winter. :)

I do not think I would use a wool sweater or pants because they do indeed get too heavy. But for baselayer items, the newer wool garments seem to work better than the synthetics.

But, in all honesty, the main part of winter travel is to layer.
Better to be slightly chilled than too hot. If you sweat a lot (no matter what the fabric) then you will chill. Not good in winter!

Most of the time when I am actively moving in Colorado, I get away with my generic polypro tops and bottoms, shell bibs (unlined), Smartool liners, windblock mittens, and a fleece hat. If it gets windy, I throw on my Marmot Windshirt (my most versaitle and favorite piece of gear). Depending where I am going /what I am doing will also have in my pack a heavy Marmot shell (for above treeline travel) or a lighter Red Ledge shell. During winter travel I ALWAYS have a balaclava and some sort of shell mitt in my pack. For the above treeline travel, I ditch the windblock mitts and tend to wear heavy shell mitts with a heavy fleece liner. And goggles with a neoprene face mask if it is really windy. (Two items I always carry in my winter pack as well).

Basically, I mix and match my gear depending what I do, where I do it and when.

Having said all that, I really think the newer wool undergarments are superior to synthetics. But, I've been doing quite well with the generic polypue synthetics for years now, so it is not critical. I do a lot of winter travel, so
experience probably helps as well.

copythat
10-31-2004, 23:39
Back in the mid '70's my winter top layers were a Peter Storm brand oiled wool sweater and a light nylon shell. The sweater was supposedly a British? fisherman's sweater. It was tightly knitted and would shed all but a pouring rain. It wasn't unpleasantly greasy but you could feel the lanolin in it and as I recall there were cautions about how to launder it. Warm as toast and wind resistant, too ...

Amen! In my younger days I worked at a boat yard where we would line up boats to be hauled out by walking into chest-deep water right up into mid-January. Chest-deep freeeeeeeeezing cold water with chest-high waders that kept the water out until there was a wave or you had to lean over or you wore a hole in one.

We wore wool against the skin, the rawer and rougher and cruder the better (under another layer, usually more wool). Nothing else even came close. 10 hours a day. And then several hours of drinking afterward.

(OK, maybe we were dumber than we were smart, but that wool made all the difference. And it was nice and light,and with a nice openish knit it shed water fast. When it got really cold .. ice on the docks ... we'd wear two or three layered.)

Jaybird
11-01-2004, 06:35
Ever since I was a boyscout I was reassured that wearing wool was a great option because it has the uncanny ability of "keeping you warm even when wet", amongst other reasons.
Now a book I am reading challenges that idea
'Secrets of Warmth for Comfort or Survival' by Hal WeissSo myth or fact? Does wool keep you warm even when wet?



It keeps SHEEP warm when wet! :D

Ridge
11-01-2004, 21:45
Wool was the mainstay for the Axis and Allies during some serious winter conditions of WWII. I have incorporated synthetics with wool stuff and all work good. Sleeping bags on the AT are one of my concerns, Down bags have the best temp rating per oz of fill, IF you can keep them dry. The humitity on the AT is so high, even in winter, that I recommend using a synthetic bag, just to be on the safe side. Remember, wet down will not keep you warm and will take a very long time to dry. Use the down bags out west(low humidity), synthetic ones in the east(high humidity). As always, in the winter, "Cotton is Killer"

tlbj6142
11-01-2004, 22:25
Sleeping bags on the AT are one of my concerns, Down bags have the best temp rating per oz of fill, IF you can keep them dry. The humitity on the AT is so high, even in winter, that I recommend using a synthetic bag, just to be on the safe side.My brother just finished his thru using two different down bags (Marmon Helium and REI Travel Bag) the entire trip without issue. He did use an Army poncho liner for a couple of weeks but found it too cold.

While down bags do hold mositure easily, they do dry quickly as well. A bit of sun and a slight breeze and a damp bag will be dry while you eat lunch.

Funny thing about the AT and weather. He hiked all of VA (and 90% of the trail) with the same person. She says it rained everyday in VA and he only remembers a couple of days. So, maybe you just have to "think" dry to keep your bag dry.

Mags
11-01-2004, 23:14
very long time to dry. Use the down bags out west(low humidity), synthetic ones in the east(high humidity). As always, in the winter, "Cotton is Killer"

I respectfully disagree. I have used a down bag out east and out west. Used a down bag on an AT thru-hike during an El Nino year (1998) with no problems. My bag does have a Dryloft shell (similar to today's Epic or Pertex shell), so that probably helped. As Orange Bug pointed out, even with a snythetic bag you will be using precious body heat to warm up a wet bag. Easier to keep ANY bag dry in the first place.

The other issue with synthetics is that I doubt a synthetic bag would stand up to the use I have given my down bag over the years. A down bag is more expensive, but tends to last longer.

As always, YMMV.

Ridge
11-02-2004, 21:41
I too prefer down bags and I guess I overstated the problems with down bags. But, a soaked down bag in an emergency situation (ie: cold, rain and no shelter) will not compare to a synthetic bag. Hypothermia can kill in 50deg temps. At an outdoor school we put to test a down bag and a synthetic one, both wet. I was convinced when I slid into each, the comparison is like comparing wet cotton(down) to wet polartec(synthetic). I also believe a hypothermia death of a Texas Man (contributed by a wet down bag) occured on Blood Mtn in Feb 4 or 5 years ago, he was attempting a thru hike. I was at Neels Gap when he was brought down.
So, for all you experienced down bag carriers, please forgive my overkill concerning the use of down bags. I just hate to see cold hikers.

A good article on sleeping bags and comparisons can be found here:

http://www.artoftravel.com/17sleepingbags.htm

"The allure of synthetics is they maintain ninety percent of their insulating power when soaked with water. They simply don't retain much water, and dry quickly. Conversely, down loses ninety percent of its loft and warmth if soaked, and takes a very long time to dry.
Therefore it follows that wet down could lead to hypothermia and death at one extreme, and at minimum discomfort and aggravation. While I have carried a down bag through the tropics without incident, it was far from the ideal insulator since down absorbs moisture from humid air. On the other hand I didn't need much, if any, insulation, and found it easy to dry the slight dampness under occasional hotel room fans. The real danger comes in cold and rainy climates where everyone must be careful to keep down dry."