View Full Version : When should SAR come out?
Wolf - 23000
03-23-2010, 01:27
I know everyone here is caring people but up to a point. I sure few people would have little compassionate for someone who calls SAR over a blister on their foot or because they are tired but yet people do it. On the flip side, some people have hiking accidents that may require medical attention. Others put themselves in danger positions believing that others should risk their lives to bail their butts out.
I know I'm not a big fan of SAR. I believe when entering the wilderness, you should expect wilderness things happen. My question is how do others feel about it?
Wolf
SAR should not exist. :sun
Trailweaver
03-23-2010, 01:55
And what about lost children, pray tell? SAR should not just magically appear for those people who "have developed a blister" or repeatedly use their services for their bailout backup plan, but we do need SAR for those true emergencies in the backcountry.
Wolf - 23000
03-23-2010, 02:10
Trailweaver,
Can you expand on what you consider "true emergencies"? The reason why I'm asking is a true emergency can mean different things to different people. I've seen some dram queens that want act like they they are going through the worst pain in the world because they have a boo-boo.
Wolf
...what about lost children...but we do need SAR for those true emergencies in the backcountry.
Are you pregnant? You said "we".
You need SAR, because someone told you, you need them?
Have you lost a child in the wild?
Just curious, as to your reasons for thinking "we" need SAR.
Myself, I go into the wilderness for the "wild", if I don't return, so be it. :sun
Lone Wolf
03-23-2010, 03:18
I know I'm not a big fan of SAR. I believe when entering the wilderness, you should expect wilderness things happen. My question is how do others feel about it?
Wolf
i'm a fan of SAR. they serve a purpose
i'm a fan of SAR. they serve a purpose
Yes, you've stated that you assist in SAR, from time to time.
I just don't see their "purpose". :sun
Lone Wolf
03-23-2010, 03:26
Yes, you've stated that you assist in SAR, from time to time.
I just don't see their "purpose". :sun
not everyone is as tough as you
not everyone is as tough as you
Right. :sun
Scooby99
03-23-2010, 03:29
Obviously SAR is needed, though it seems the many times we see them in the media it is for something ridiculous. For myself, I do not bring my cell phone and would never buy a SPOT or similar device. Any problems I encounter I will deal with myself in some manner. Ive torn tendons in my ankle after rolling it hard and managed to hop on 1 leg and my poles 3 miles to get out of the woods, SAR is used too often by fools unprepared to care for themselves.
SAR should not exist. :sun
Would you say the same thing about ambulances or hospitals. :confused:
panzer
Obviously SAR is needed, ... SAR is used too often by fools unprepared to care for themselves.
Perhaps a thinning of the gene pool is in order?
I say eliminate SAR, it wouldn't hurt. :sun
In a study of SAR efforts by the National Park Service between 1992 and 2007, there were:
65,439 operations;
2,659 fatalities;
24,288 illnesses or injuries;
51,541 non-illnesses or injuries; and
13,212 saves
"Conclusions.—Without the presence of NPS personnel responding to SAR incidents, 1 in 5 (20%) of those requesting SAR assistance would be a fatality."
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1580/08-WEME-OR-299R.1
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.
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Yeah, I would say that SAR serves a purpose.
Accidents happen. People get hurt or lost and it's not always because they are stupid or unprepared.
I used to serve on a SAR team, there are other searches besides just people getting lost in the woods, during my tenure we searched for bodies from drownings, Alzheimer's patients in rural areas that get disoriented, as well as a potential suicide in the woods which did happen. Agree that at times SAR is called when the person could extract themselves but again - there are other purposes. SAR is also well-trained at grid searches and are called by police, FBI, etc for evidence searches. Everyone pitches in for kid searches, not so with other issues as described above.
I know I'm not a big fan of SAR. I believe when entering the wilderness, you should expect wilderness things happen. My question is how do others feel about it?
Wolf
SAR saves lives,
Ask Alberto how he feels about it:
March 16 & March 17:
Two men, Alberto Risenberg, 50, of Virgina, and Seth Lyon, 49, of Poughkeepsie decided to hike Blackhead, Black Dome, and Thomas Cole Mountains. Both men are wise and experienced hikers.
Weather.gov had been fore casting a significant storm for the Catskill Mountains from Friday, March 12, 2010 thru Monday March 15, 2010. They were fore casting up to 5 inches of rain. Towards the end of the week, the fore cast changed to a mix of rain, sleet, and snow. It was also fore casted that there would be high winds during this storm. This storm was a noreaster. It should also be noted that Blackhead Mountain had received up to 7 feet of snow two weeks prior. Trails were difficult to follow due to the snow pack covering signs and trail markers.
On Friday, March 12, 2010 both men headed to the Blackhead Parking lot on Big Hollow Road. From there they hiked up to the Batavia Kill Lean-To. Here the setup camp and stayed the night at the lean-to. They used the Lean-to as their base camp.
On Saturday, March 13, 2010 at approximately 7:30 AM the men headed out up the north access of Blackhead Mountain. They left their packs back at the lean-to. But, they did bring a small amount of supplies. From there they headed west to Black Dome and Thomas Cole Mountain. During the day the storm came in and heavy snow started to fall, and the winds picked up to gale force. This reduced the visibility to a very short distance. It is reported that they could only 15 feet in front of them. With the snow pack so high, and the trail hard to follow, they lost track of the trail. They then started back up Blackhead Mountain. Due to a white-out conditions they missed the north access path that would have taken them back to the Batavia Lean-to. They then started to head down the east side of Blackhead Mountain towards Dutchers Notch. The peak of Blackhead Mountain is 3942', and they descended to approximately 3700'. This location was 1/4 to 1/2 mile east of the summit of Blackhead Mountain. At approximately 9:30PM they called 911 and told them that they were in trouble and needed help. Unfortunately, at that time they did not know where they were. This fact would significantly slow down rescue efforts. They tried to tell DEC Forest Rangers where they were, but the DEC could not figure out where they were. That evening they built a snow shelter which was a very wise choice. Both men huddled together in the snow shelter with a blanket they brought with them. The Forest Ranger would return in the morning to start the rescue effort.
First thing on Sunday morning, March 14, 2010 Seth Lyon set out on foot to get help for his friend. Due to his frostbite hands and feet, he was unable to put his snowshoes back on. He set out to get help for his friend Alberto, who was suffering from frostbite and hypothermia. Ten DEC forest rangers, Hensonville Fire Department, SAR from New York and New Jersey, State Police, and Sheriff participated in the search. They sweep the trails looking for the men. Very difficult weather conditions seriously hampered the search. Around 8:55 PM rescuers found Alberto Risenberg. Due to the lateness of the day, rescuers gave Alberto a change of cloths, and setup a shelter for the night. Alberto legs were too cold to walk, so they setup a shelter so that they could get him warmed up.
On Monday Morning, March 15, 2010, rescuers and Alberto Risenberg set out to leave Blackhead Mountain. Alberto Risenberg was able to walk down by himself. He arrived at the trail head that morning. Alberto did not need medical help. Rescuers had a hard time finding Seth. Finally, they used pinging of his cell phone to locate him. When they finally did reach him, had had already died. Later in the afternoon rescuers found Seth Lyon 100' from the original snow shelter. Seth died on the mountain, and it is believed that he died of hypothermia. An autopsy will be done on March 16, 2010. Rescuers did bring down Seth by snowmobile part of the way, and carried him in the more difficult sections.
According the SAR and the DEC this rescue was exceedingly difficult and prolonged.
At this early date the following mistakes were made:
1. They underestimated the weather conditions for that weekend.
2. They didn't consult with other hikers about hiking conditions with this unusual high snow pack. This high snow pack has surprised many very experienced hikers. Many hikers were getting lost during sunny weather. During a blizzard, it would be exceedingly difficult to follow.
3. They didn't have a topo GPS. Having one would have saved Seth's life, and gotten them out of the woods on Saturday. A topo GPS would have allowed them to backtrack accurately in a white-out.
4. They left their packs behind with life saving gear.
5. They didn't have bright colored tape to mark their path once weather got bad. This would have helped rescuers find them quicker.
6. Seth broke a cardinal rule of breaking up the group, and it cost him his life.
The things they did do right:
1. They had good gear at the lean-to.
2. They had a cell phone, which was charged.
3. They had the rare skills of how to build a snow shelter, which saved Alberto's life.
4. They huddled together with a blanket.
5. They called 911 when they knew that they were really in trouble. Probably should have called earlier.
The men did have snowshoes, compass, blanket, cell phones. They did not have a topo GPS.
SAR should not exist. :sun
Are you pregnant? You said "we".
You need SAR, because someone told you, you need them?
Have you lost a child in the wild?
Just curious, as to your reasons for thinking "we" need SAR.
Myself, I go into the wilderness for the "wild", if I don't return, so be it. :sun
Yes, you've stated that you assist in SAR, from time to time.
I just don't see their "purpose". :sun
Perhaps a thinning of the gene pool is in order?
I say eliminate SAR, it wouldn't hurt. :sun
This is a perfect example of internet ego overriding common sense.
Lone Wolf
03-23-2010, 07:29
This is a perfect example of internet ego overriding common sense.
yup. cyber tough guy :rolleyes:
This is a perfect example of internet ego overriding common sense.
And likely young.
SAR is necassary when "anyone", experience or not, can walk into the woods..
And likely young. Nah, idiots can be any age.
I like to think of myself as someone with a fair amount of experience in the backcountry, although, admittedly, I've neither attempted or completed a thruhike of a long distance trail. However, I'm a very dedicated section hiker and put my miles in when and where I can. By trade, I'm a nurse with 10 years of experience working with patients in critical care, progressive care and surgery. I'm also a veteran of the US Marine Corps and a graduate of SERE school, among other training in the Marines. Every time I set foot to go on a hike, regardless of length, weather, terrain, etc, I'm thankful that SAR is there should I ever need it. I'm also very thankful that I haven't needed it. And I believe were the opposing poster to this thread caught in a situation where he needed SAR, he'd be more than ready go call, signal or send help instead of just laying there and letting nature take it's course. Were the child or other family members of the opposing poster to be ill or injured in the backcountry, I'm sure that SAR would be the first thing that would go through his mind would be how to get in touch with SAR. So, would the opposing poster also advocate for the disbanding of the US Coast Guard? They run more SAR missions every year than any other organization in the world. So by his rationale, they should be done away with, right? WRONG! It's very easy to sit behind a computer, the anonymity of the internet and a big set of cyberballs, all the while very ignorantly proclaiming that SAR serves no purpose. It takes more critical thinking skills to be out there, see someone sick or injured, or, worse yet, be a victim of illnes or injury yourself and have to decide if SAR is warranted. To the opposing poster of this thread I say: internet tough guy FAIL!
canoehead
03-23-2010, 08:05
SAR is needed, but shouldn't be abused. For those who think different, then pray you'll never need them. for those that have been rescued by them, make a donation because most of us are voulenteers and we use our own gear.
Peace.
Lone Wolf
03-23-2010, 08:07
i put in a lot of hours with our local volunteer rescue squad. when the pager goes off and the 911 dispatcher gives the address and nature of the call, we go. no questions asked. same with SAR. they enjoy what they do. those that oppose SAR are just being silly
twosticks
03-23-2010, 09:37
To answer Wolf's questions, I think an acceptable use of SAR is anything that can end someone's life. Someone gets lost, whether in a whiteout or just plain missed the blaze, it's a good reason to call. Someone breaks a bone and can't move, it's a good reason to call. I think if a life is in danger, it's a completely acceptable time to call. Now, that person should try to extract themselves out of the mess that was made to their fullest extent, but sometimes, ***** happens. The folks that do the SAR know they are trained to help save lives. Like the "other" wolf said, without question.
Trailweaver
03-23-2010, 11:35
I have hiked with a child younger than 3 years old and was very aware of what could happen if she got lost.
I also hiked once when I tore a ligament and had to hike out, alone, for more than 4 miles. I managed on my own and have never had to rely on a rescue, but if I needed one in an emergency - and I think I would recognize the difference between a true emergency and a broken fingernail - I would certainly call for help rather than die or let someone else die on the trail. Tough guy talk is just that. . . no one dies on the trail by choice unless suicidal to begin with.
Shutterbug
03-23-2010, 12:00
I know everyone here is caring people but up to a point. I sure few people would have little compassionate for someone who calls SAR over a blister on their foot or because they are tired but yet people do it. On the flip side, some people have hiking accidents that may require medical attention. Others put themselves in danger positions believing that others should risk their lives to bail their butts out.
I know I'm not a big fan of SAR. I believe when entering the wilderness, you should expect wilderness things happen. My question is how do others feel about it?
Wolf
I needed SAR once. Not because I was lost, but because I collapsed on the trail. It wasn't a heart attack, but had all of the same symptoms. Fortunately, my collapse was near a road and in an area with cell phone coverage.
Another hiker with EMT training stopped to help until the rescue crew arrived. I don't ever expect to need them again, but I was really thankful they were available the one time I needed them.
Would you say the same thing about ambulances or hospitals. :confused:
panzer
The OP requested feelings on SAR.
...I'm not a big fan of SAR...My question is how do others feel about it?
Wolf
That is what I responded to. :sun
The SAR abuse started mostly with the advent of the cell phone.
More people started going out with the added "security" of the cell phone instead of proper gear to handle unforeseen situations and when they got in trouble dialed 911- help me.
Granted some legit 911 calls have been made with cell phones but in NH for example things got way out of control with the SAR abuse/ broke my finger need a helicopter ride out stuff.
Personally, I'm in a pact with a couple other hikers that if one of us is soloing and doesn't come out when we are suppose to then one or two of us/them are notified where we went and itinery and goes looking for the missing before initiating a full fledge search.
Usually its just one of those unforeseen storm delays , high water crossing delay or miscalculations in time . So far no one has been called out for a search but its a good 1st response plan IMO.
In general we give ourselves a extra night out before a call is made.
This works well for local and in state hikes.
Jim Adams
03-23-2010, 15:18
Simple: If you are dying, call SARS.
If you are not dying then treat the situation with the best of your own
knowledge and skills and get yourself out.
If your own knowledge and skills won't get you out alive on your own, then you are either in deep **** or you weren't prepared in
the first place....in deep ****? Call SARS....not prepared? STAY HOME!
geek
SAR doesn't have to go. They love that stuff. I have lived with and backpacked with Yosemite and grand canyon SAR. They will take any excuse to go help people we love it. I know I wasn't mountain SAR but I will say that when I was working Beach patrol if the surf was bad this was a normal conversation.
Sir we recommend that you stay on the beach today due to the hurricane surf.
Is the water closed?
No but we are just recommending for your safety that you don't go in. We don't close the water.
Oh OK well I will be fine but if I get in trouble you can come get me.
NO sir that is not correct
but if i get in trouble you have to come save me.
NO! we don't.
but its your job
no sir my job is public safety, I warn you its not safe. IF you go in, you WILL get in trouble. Then IF I went in TWO people would be in a dangerous situation instead of one. I could loose my job and life for going in after you. So IF you go in WHEN you get in trouble you will DIE.
Another normal conversation that would be more related to the AT
me: Please evacuate the ocean and the beach lightning has been spotted.
do we have to leave
yes
why
there is lightning and city ordnances calls for mandatory evacuation
but i paid for my hotel room and i want to use the beach
if you stay here you can be ticketed and even spend the night in jail
I want to talk to your supervisor
The mayor? its a law
Every year we have people struck by lightning. Usually its not one of us trying to keep the public off the beach but we have had 5 guards stuck, all have been off the beach and went back on to the beach to get people off after they went back out. lightning likes sand more then water. We have also had guards seriously injured during regular rip current rescues, dislocated shoulders, broken rips and necks. being the 1% of guards that carry a knife on water rescues saved my life. Got a boogie board leash caught around my neck in big surf and was being held under. had to cut the leash. Also a large portion of people like to go swimming before or after hours and when they get in trouble good Samaritans like to go in after them its not uncommon for them to drown. We even had a fireman this past summer end up in the hospital. I know some times bad freakish things happen. That is why we are there. But some time people that cant swim in a bath tub go in the ocean. They bother me but not as much as the guy that has to be saved 3 times in one day. I wish people understood that while these people do volunteer and are well trained and have the best equipment they are putting themselves in danger and I have seen some of them DIE trying to help others.
Jester2000
03-23-2010, 18:15
I like in the article about that rescue the line:
"Both men are wise and experienced hikers."
Wise and experienced in what? With bad weather predicted, they separate themselves from their gear? Bad choice. I would imagine that without the presumed lifesaving possibilities of the cell phone, they might have made a different choice.
I think I have a good idea of where my experience level is. I know for a fact that it is nowhere near the level of Wolf 23000, and frankly I can't imagine too many bad circumstances that he couldn't get himself out of on his own.
My experience level is such that I know I'm capable enough to potentially put myself in a bad situation I can't get out of. But I at least know what I don't know, and try to be aware of the beginnings of the kind of series of mistakes that can lead to disaster.
Before I go on a trip, someone at home knows where I'm planning to be, as specifically as possible. They know when I'm supposed to be back, the supplies I have, and the phone # of the nearest Sheriff's Dept. and Ranger Station.
This is the sort of thing one did before cell phones. It was called planning. It's dead now.
I don't want anyone having to risk their life to save mine -- and I keep that in mind when I'm in the backcountry. But I appreciate what SAR does, and I appreciate knowing that they're willing to help if I truly need it.
off topic but jester do you know if the foot bridge in HF is open yet? Some friends and I just recently did the 4 states in 4 days and we wanted to come meet you and pick up a few things BUT had to go over the other bridge and miss HF.
yes, sometimes the unexpected can get you...
http://www.newstimes.com/default/article/Man-dies-in-storm-while-trying-to-help-friend-414909.php#page-1
Wolf - 23000
03-24-2010, 00:43
Nah, idiots can be any age.
I like to think of myself as someone with a fair amount of experience in the backcountry, although, admittedly, I've neither attempted or completed a thruhike of a long distance trail. However, I'm a very dedicated section hiker and put my miles in when and where I can. By trade, I'm a nurse with 10 years of experience working with patients in critical care, progressive care and surgery. I'm also a veteran of the US Marine Corps and a graduate of SERE school, among other training in the Marines. Every time I set foot to go on a hike, regardless of length, weather, terrain, etc, I'm thankful that SAR is there should I ever need it. I'm also very thankful that I haven't needed it. And I believe were the opposing poster to this thread caught in a situation where he needed SAR, he'd be more than ready go call, signal or send help instead of just laying there and letting nature take it's course. Were the child or other family members of the opposing poster to be ill or injured in the backcountry, I'm sure that SAR would be the first thing that would go through his mind would be how to get in touch with SAR. So, would the opposing poster also advocate for the disbanding of the US Coast Guard? They run more SAR missions every year than any other organization in the world. So by his rationale, they should be done away with, right? WRONG! It's very easy to sit behind a computer, the anonymity of the internet and a big set of cyberballs, all the while very ignorantly proclaiming that SAR serves no purpose. It takes more critical thinking skills to be out there, see someone sick or injured, or, worse yet, be a victim of illnes or injury yourself and have to decide if SAR is warranted. To the opposing poster of this thread I say: internet tough guy FAIL!
Hooch,
As I'm sure Lone Wolf would agree with me I've been in some VERY ROUGH situation and not a fan of SAR. So I don't just sit behind a keyboard, I actually go out there and have been there. As for the Coast Guard being disbanded, well the CG is under the Dept of Homeland Security. Their primary mission is not SAR but they do a lot of them. I'm sure you are right they do more SAR than any other organization.
My question that I posted was not whether or not SAR is needed but were should they be used but where should the line be drawn between a really need for a SAR operation and an abuse of service? There are some people/groups that really rely on someone coming out to bail their butts out because they won't do for themselves. As Tin man point out, "51,541 or the 65,439 operations were non-illnesses or injuries".
Wolf
Graywolf
03-24-2010, 00:59
It amazes me with all the resonses here that do not agree with SAR..I hope and pray you'll never need them but if you do, it will change your perspective..
Thank you to the ones who do agree with SAR and gave them praise..
I believe the AT, even though not a requirement, prefers RR to have SAR and Wilderness Rescue Training..I feel safe when those guys are out there..If something happens I know one will come along eventually..
I have begun training through FEMA and on April 10th begin training with the State Gaurd on Urban and Wilderness SAR..I am excited to doing this..I do hope I won't have to rescue any of you but if I do, I hope your still alive...
Graywolf
Wolf - 23000
03-24-2010, 01:03
In a study of SAR efforts by the National Park Service between 1992 and 2007, there were:
65,439 operations;
2,659 fatalities;
24,288 illnesses or injuries;
51,541 non-illnesses or injuries; and
13,212 saves
"Conclusions.—Without the presence of NPS personnel responding to SAR incidents, 1 in 5 (20%) of those requesting SAR assistance would be a fatality."
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1580/08-WEME-OR-299R.1
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Yeah, I would say that SAR serves a purpose.
Tin Man,
I don't doubt your figures on operations, fatalities, etc but "1 in 5 (20%) of those requesting SAR assistance would be a fatality." might be stretching it a lot. There really is no way anyone can know how many of the rescue would have been fatality and are often reflected worst than what really are trying to get funding. The human body/mind is capable of incredible things when you let it. Even while injured, people have walked out been sick. A save can mean anything from sprain ankle (non-life threatening) to a broken back.
Wolf
Lot of wolves on here. Just sayin'.
...
SAR is necassary when "anyone", experience or not, can walk into the woods..
Where is it written that one is required to protect a fool from himself? :sun
Wolf - 23000
03-24-2010, 01:20
i'm a fan of SAR. they serve a purpose
Lone Wolf,
My question is not to say if SAR serves a purpose or not. In your travels and work with SAR, I'm sure you have seen some hikers that abuse the service and some that had a really need? My question is more where do you feel the line should be drawn? Do you feel SAR should come out because someone hurt their foot or only for a major fall?
You told jrwiesz that not everyone is as tough as he is. On the reverse side, have you ever felt that some people should just toughen up?
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
03-24-2010, 01:51
SAR saves lives,
Ask Alberto how he feels about it:
I wouldn't believe everything you read. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the cold, I would question some of the accuracy of the news report. You can look at it in two ways. SAR saved one person but on the flip side if the two men would have stayed together would both of them been able to get out together? It is a little strange to me that someone is able to dial 911 on a small keypad but can't put on their snow shoes. Their cell phone seem to last a long time considering I know my cell phone was next to useless on a winter trip of Maine. The cold kill the life span of cell phone talk time VERY quickly to almost nothing.
I also think it should also be pointed out that an extra pound stove/fuel in their pack could have saved their lives.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
03-24-2010, 02:41
To answer Wolf's questions, I think an acceptable use of SAR is anything that can end someone's life. Someone gets lost, whether in a whiteout or just plain missed the blaze, it's a good reason to call. Someone breaks a bone and can't move, it's a good reason to call. I think if a life is in danger, it's a completely acceptable time to call. Now, that person should try to extract themselves out of the mess that was made to their fullest extent, but sometimes, ***** happens. The folks that do the SAR know they are trained to help save lives. Like the "other" wolf said, without question.
Twosticks,
Not all SAR members are trained. Many are volunteers that have some experience in the wilderness but not as much as you think trying to help.
"anything that can end someone's life" the flip to this is some people really rely on the fact that someone will come bail their butt out and take more chance then they should. As tuswm mention, after telling some people of the danger so people still do their own thing expecting others to risk their life to get them out.
Wolf
With numbers and statistics, one can find almost any solution they desire.
But, what I find most interesting about these numbers is:
in the 65,439 operations, 51,541[it is not noted to be # of "operations" or "individuals" that] resulted in "non-illnesses and injuries" = 78.7%
in the 65,439 operations, 2,659[I'm assuming "individual"] resulted in "fatality" = 4%
but, if you took the total "individuals" involved 78,488[per the acticle], the actual percent would be at 3% "fatality".
the cost[not listed in the initial post] for those interested was $58,572,164. This was just NPS for operations.
$46.8 million for "non-illnesses and injuries".
Perhaps $58.5 million dollars could be better spent. Especially, towards education of those choosing to go into the "wild", so they are certain that, if they chose to go into the "wild", they are certain that, they must get themselves back out of the "wild", on their own.
I think it just sad commentary that, more individuals are willing to give up their "liberties", in exchange for the "sercurity blanket" they delegate to another entity.
Entitlement society = laziness. Or as one WB poster likes to state, "sheeple :rolleyes:".
Lead them over that back-country cliff, SAR will be there to pick-up the pieces.
The OP, as I pointed out in an earlier post, requested feelings towards the subject he presented. I submitted mine.:eek:
Signed: young[DAJA], idiot[Hooch], cyber tough guy[Lone Wolf]. :sun
Lot of wolves on here. Just sayin'.
I, especially, appreciate the name calling.
Signed: young[DAJA], idiot[Hooch], cyber tough guy[Lone Wolf] :sun
As someone who has worked as a 911 operator I can tell you that cell phones greatly contribute to 911 abuse and people calling 911 when there is in fact no emergency. People think that even if they don't have an emergency, when they are driving and thus unable to look up a non-emergency phone number that it is ok for them to dial 911 anyway, when what they are doing is tying up an emergency line. A lot of people also think that 911 is a free 411 service or a number they can call when they "don't have any minutes left" on their phone so they can't call the non-emergency line.
Cell phones also generate a lot of vague calls that may or may not be an emergency...things like "I saw some smoke on the side of the highway" or "I saw a car in the ditch." Both of these kinds of calls require emergency vehicles to respond, even though oftentimes it is a homeowner burning leaves in their backyard or roasting marshmallows or a car that has been abandoned in the ditch for 3 days. But these calls can't be ignored because they could be a real brush fire or a car accident. In short, cell phones for some reason encourage people to report vague happenings without any real concrete information as to whether there is an emergency or not. Given vague information, emergency personell must respond. The fact that people are willing to call in random facts as emergencies but are too lazy to stop and investigate to find out if there is in fact an emergency I think says a lot about our society. When emergency personell respond to these "non-emergencies" they put lives at risk rushing to the scene of...nothing.
And other posters are correct that different people define emergencies differently. Some people think that a flat tire or running out of gas is an emergency. Some people think its an emergency when their neighbor's dog gets into their trash. Some people think its an emergency when their ex-girlfriend won't quit sending them text messages on their cell phone. Some people think it is an emergency when their neighbor is playing their radio too loud.
An emergency is when life or property is in imminent danger.
If you're being physically attacked right now, you have an emergency. If you want to report an assault that happened 2 days ago, you do not have an emergency.
If somebody just stole your car 2 minutes ago, you have an emergency. If your boyfriend borrowed your car 2 days ago and hasn't brought it back yet, you don't have an emergency.
As far as SAR goes, I'd totally forget the property part of the equation and stick with the "is life in imminent danger" standard. Having said that, yes we need SAR. No matter how much experience you have or how much you prepare, you can't always predict circumstances and you might just end up in trouble and need some help.
If SAR personell don't mind responding to non-emergency calls, that is their call if they want to do an all out search over something that is less than an emergency...might even be a good training exercise.
But I really believe that if you activate a locator beacon and you don't have a true emergency then you should be put in jail and fined for the costs of your "rescue." Some states have laws making it illegal to dial 911 when you don't have an emergency, and I've arranged for some people to spend the night in jail because they called me when they didn't have one.
It appears that like every other group and association, there is a SAR trade show. This one is April 21-22, 2010 in Washington DC. If you really want to learn something and take your grievances or support or helpful advice :rolleyes:somewhere, this would be the place...
EVENT PROFILE
Search And Rescue (SAR 2010) will provide an unparalleled opportunity to network with SAR experts from around the world, hear how the real SAR experts save lives today and learn how they are Charting the Course for Rescue Mission Success in the future.
http://www.biztradeshows.com/trade-events/sar.html
Lone Wolf
03-24-2010, 09:06
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Lone Wolf, My question is more where do you feel the line should be drawn? Do you feel SAR should come out because someone hurt their foot or only for a major fall?
it's up to SAR to determine where any lines are drawn and when they'll sping into action. it's good to know they're around
With numbers and statistics, one can find almost any solution they desire.
But, what I find most interesting about these numbers is:
in the 65,439 operations, 51,541[it is not noted to be # of "operations" or "individuals" that] resulted in "non-illnesses and injuries" = 78.7%
in the 65,439 operations, 2,659[I'm assuming "individual"] resulted in "fatality" = 4%
but, if you took the total "individuals" involved 78,488[per the acticle], the actual percent would be at 3% "fatality".
the cost[not listed in the initial post] for those interested was $58,572,164. This was just NPS for operations.
$46.8 million for "non-illnesses and injuries".
Perhaps $58.5 million dollars could be better spent. Especially, towards education of those choosing to go into the "wild", so they are certain that, if they chose to go into the "wild", they are certain that, they must get themselves back out of the "wild", on their own.
I think it just sad commentary that, more individuals are willing to give up their "liberties", in exchange for the "sercurity blanket" they delegate to another entity.
Entitlement society = laziness. Or as one WB poster likes to state, "sheeple :rolleyes:".
Lead them over that back-country cliff, SAR will be there to pick-up the pieces.
The OP, as I pointed out in an earlier post, requested feelings towards the subject he presented. I submitted mine.:eek:
Signed: young[DAJA], idiot[Hooch], cyber tough guy[Lone Wolf]. :sunLike I said, if you had a child or loved one lost in the wilderness, I bet you that SAR would be the first thing on your mind and among the first people you'd notify. If you say I'm wrong, then you're a liar, plain and simple.
When I go hiking I do so as if cell phones and SAR do not exist. When something goes wrong, I take care of it as if cell phones and SAR do not exist. If I had to craw out on my hands and knees I would do that before calling SAR.
I agree with Bronk that people who call SAR because the water in the Grand Canyon tastes salty should be fined and jailed until they learn. And so what if that discourages people from using SAR in genuine emergencies. Human life isn't that precious. There's 6.5 billion more of them out there.
Lone Wolf
03-24-2010, 10:48
When I go hiking I do so as if cell phones and SAR do not exist. Human life isn't that precious.
do you take a cell with you though?
not precious til it's you or a family member
do you take a cell with you though?
not precious til it's you or a family memberCouldn't agree more.
clodhopper
03-24-2010, 11:14
When I go hiking I do so as if cell phones and SAR do not exist. When something goes wrong, I take care of it as if cell phones and SAR do not exist. If I had to craw out on my hands and knees I would do that before calling SAR.
I agree with Bronk that people who call SAR because the water in the Grand Canyon tastes salty should be fined and jailed until they learn. And so what if that discourages people from using SAR in genuine emergencies. Human life isn't that precious. There's 6.5 billion more of them out there.
Ouch, that is a real hard view.
I am all for people being prepared and self-sufficient and we should take action for the folks that abuse the system.
But I also believe that we are all a simple misstep away from tragedy and being humbled to the point that we would gratefully accept help for ourselves or for our loved ones.
A sincere thank you to SAR volunteers.
I wouldn't believe everything you read. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the cold, I would question some of the accuracy of the news report.
you have NO idea. NO IDEA
little girl get sliced by surf board fin = shark attack
joint effort = coastguard rescues lifeguard
man rescued twice, tries to go back in during storm, told will be arrested, lifeguards go home, man goes in with children endangering their lives, man dies almost kills 2 of his 4 kids and widows pregnant wife= hero dies while saving children.
being from a small tourist town I know one of the reporters real well "we don't write a story to be truthfully we write a story people will want to read."
Failure to call for, or delay a call for SAR because of some tough guy attitude can turn a relatively simple SAR operation into a major one.
it's up to SAR to determine where any lines are drawn and when they'll sping into action. it's good to know they're around
I like Lone Wolf's answer. Comming from a man of experience..
Failure to call for, or delay a call for SAR because of some tough guy attitude can turn a relatively simple SAR operation into a major one.
But I think often times people don't stop to just think, think of a way out or a way to help themselves. Just stop and think about whats going on. I think 911 is almost a reflex at this point.
Police get called to investigate car accidents in which one car has bumped gently into the car in front of it. One of our neighbors called the police because someone hung a bag of dog poop on the flag of her mailbox! And then she emailed the neighborhood to let us all know about this "crime."
Firemen get called when people have set their houses on fire through all sorts of stupidity.
People who call SAR are no different, and range from the extremely stupid/ignorant/selfish to those no one would balk at helping. It's up to the long-suffering souls who answer the phone when we call 911, and the rest of the first-responders, to sift through what comes in.
Personally I favor standards similar to what fire and police departments use. Making a false alarm is a criminal offense. Then there's a sliding scale from stupidity to validity, with a response time and (maybe price)to match.
I wouldn't believe everything you read. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the cold, I would question some of the accuracy of the news report. You can look at it in two ways. SAR saved one person but on the flip side if the two men would have stayed together would both of them been able to get out together? It is a little strange to me that someone is able to dial 911 on a small keypad but can't put on their snow shoes. Their cell phone seem to last a long time considering I know my cell phone was next to useless on a winter trip of Maine. The cold kill the life span of cell phone talk time VERY quickly to almost nothing.
I also think it should also be pointed out that an extra pound stove/fuel in their pack could have saved their lives.
Wolf
Yup, some mistakes were made, even in the initial report from one of the search organizations.
That story came from another hiking website in the area with a poster in contact with the SAR about the search.
You can read the rest of the chatter here (http://www.catskillmountaineer.com/forums/phpBB-3.0.5/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=136&sid=8e72a5018a1d41b7c297dbb53663d578) if you want.
Condolences to the deceased's family members and friends and thanks to SAR for their difficult efforts.
Jonnycat
03-24-2010, 15:36
An emergency is when life or property is in imminent danger.
This should be on all cellphones and SPOT type devices, like the warnings they put on cigarettes.z
I wouldn't believe everything you read. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the cold, I would question some of the accuracy of the news report. You can look at it in two ways. SAR saved one person but on the flip side if the two men would have stayed together would both of them been able to get out together? It is a little strange to me that someone is able to dial 911 on a small keypad but can't put on their snow shoes. Their cell phone seem to last a long time considering I know my cell phone was next to useless on a winter trip of Maine. The cold kill the life span of cell phone talk time VERY quickly to almost nothing.
I also think it should also be pointed out that an extra pound stove/fuel in their pack could have saved their lives.
Wolf
You have a nice forum here so; I thought it worth pointing out a couple things about the incident on Blackhead Mt. and in defense of my fellow Search and Rescue volunteers. I was on the mountain that day. I got the call about midnight and was at the Hesonville Fire Station about 8am with enough gear to keep myself and a few others alive on that Mt. overnight -- 26lbs worth excluding water.
"Wise" may have not been the right word to describe Seth and Alberto, but from what I have learned about Seth, "experienced" is correct. He was a trail maintenance volunteer and apparently knew the area very well. Seth’s daughter also contends that although they knew the weather was not supposed to be nice that what blew in was worse than what was forecasted.
You wrote: “It is a little strange to me that someone is able to dial 911 on a small keypad but can't put on their snow shoes.” So the first lesson from this is about hypothermia. They dialed 911 at 9:30 at night, probably not long after finishing their snow cave so they were still nimble then. It was morning, after hypothermia set in that neither man had motor control of their hands so that Seth couldn’t put on his snowshoes. Alberto couldn’t even walk. From what I gathered Alberto and Seth were college buddies and the Catskills were Seth’s stomping grounds. Alberto lives in VA. Even though Seth couldn’t put on his snowshoes he still decided to “try to get help.” He may have felt responsible for getting his buddy into that situation. He may have been confused from hypothermia which first constricts blood flow to the extremities in order to keep the core organs alive but also soon affects higher brain function. He may not have been had it together 100% but he could walk, his friend couldn’t and he died trying to get help. To me that = hero.
The second lesson from this incident is about stubbornness.
There's been some discussion of the "tough guys" here - the ones who "don't believe in SAR." Seth may have had a little of that too - he thought he knew the Mt., he thought he didn't need a GPS (even for emergencies) and even knowing that the weather could get bad (though there is debate about that) they still left their survival gear at the leanto.
The answer to stubbornness is humility.
A cheap GPS with the leanto marked might have saved Seth’s life.
Knowing when to admit “we’re lost” and getting into survival mode sooner may have too.
Trusting that, having completed a 911 call, the Rangers would organize a search that would find them would have been a tough decision too, but also one that might have saved Seth's life .
Sometimes you have to admit that you're not tougher than the Mt. or the conditions. Don't panic, think it through. Don't be a tough guy, figure out how to survive.
And one more thing that he should have known about hypothermia. Once you’ve cooled down enough that the body begins to restrict blood flow to the extremities, you shouldn’t burst into the type of activity that Seth undertook -- trying to climb down the Mt. That sudden burst of work can be too much for even a healthy heart, fighting both constricted capillaries and reduced body temp can cause a heart attack. That may have been what killed him.
A final note about SAR teams. We work at the request and activation of the DEC or Forest Rangers. We don’t make the call. The Rangers, like the police in a fender bender, do usually respond to rescue calls up our way, because things can change quickly in the Adirondacks and if they need us they call us. Our members bring a variety of skills, guides, mountain climbers, back packers, EMTs. We are all certified by DEC before we work in the field and crew bosses are tested for their ability to navigate, lead, have basic survival skills and wilderness first aid knowledge. Our members have a variety of skills and we use them for good cause when called. Our team has helped rescue five people since 2003 and helped many families find closure by being able to bury a loved one who died afield.
I think that answers the question of whether or not SAR teams
should exist. Some of you talented people might enjoy the experience too.
Safe and Happy Hiking!
Jester2000
03-25-2010, 01:01
Forager -- Good analysis of the event. Thanks for the work you do.
Wolf - 23000
03-25-2010, 01:17
Like I said, if you had a child or loved one lost in the wilderness, I bet you that SAR would be the first thing on your mind and among the first people you'd notify. If you say I'm wrong, then you're a liar, plain and simple.
Hooch,
I don't have children but I have worked with them for a number of years. Yes I know it is not the same.
If a child is lost, often you are SAR "members" are not train individuals or an established team. They are your everyday folks that may spend some time in the woods but not train even close to your level. A lost child seems to bring out the goodness in many people to try to help. The bad thing about it is at times, some of the volunteers have even gotten hurt which is one of my biggest concern. The question also comes to mind is how did the child get lost? Where was the supervision?
On the flip side to what you are saying is some people/group also rely on SAR TOO MUCH and take more of a risk than they should. In one of tuswm examples of a man who was rescue twice, was told by the lifeguards go home, he when back for a third time resulting in his pregnant wife dying and nearly 2 of their 4 kids.
There are also some camps that really are grossly unprepared and heavy rely on SAR. Back years ago, there was a girl camp who didn't believe the girls should carry any source of shelter. The camp expected the girls would ALWAYS be able to sleep every night in the shelters. They had several groups out and in at least one case the group was waiting in a shelter for the ranger because they had no rain gear and leader didn't even know how to use the stove to warm up the kids.
Wolf
Another thing to keep in mind is that SAR isn't just for hikers, and it isn't just for stupid people...sometimes accidents happen to people who are acting in a perfectly responsible manner. We had a situation a couple of years ago where an amish family arrived home after dark. As everybody was getting out of the buggy something spooked their horses and they took off running at full speed...with a 3 year old girl still inside. When the horses finally stopped and they caught up to them a few miles later, the little girl was no longer in the buggy...she had fallen out somewhere. There were already 6 inches of snow on the ground and it was still snowing pretty hard...so much so that it was difficult to see. She wasn't found until early the next morning, and yes, she was still alive.
Wolf - 23000
03-25-2010, 04:40
forager,
Just to clarify something, my post was not to put down you or any of your fellow Search and Rescue volunteers. Sadly a man did die but that was something that is clearly not any SAR volunteer fault. The men left knowing the risk. It is their responsibility to get their butts out alive.
I also sure that you and the rest of your team have a lot of experience but not all SAR volunteer team have that much experience as you. For example, were I'm living right now is Hawaii. We have a lot of people that get lost in the woods. I know it seems kind of silly sense we are on an island but a lot of people still seem to call for a rescue. Often the SAR team members come from a local hiking club that has some wilderness experience but not a lot.
Going back to the story, the men when into an area that had up to 7 feet of snow and when they knew the weather was not going to be very good. The only time you go into weather like that is if you know what you are doing. An experience winter hiker would know you don't camp near the summit of the mountain. You head low in the elevation, not high. The story also states it was raining, so it would be cold but not to the extreme. The snow cave should have kept them alive but would be wet on the bottom I'm sure this is why hypothermia set in. It just seem like they really relied on SAR too much and forgot the basic that could have saved their life.
At night when they made their call, the temperatures normal drop a lot as the wind really pick up a lot.
As you pointed out a cheap GPS would have really helped or carrying a few extra pounds in gear could have made a huge different. The story seems like it has to many problems that an experience winter hiker would know better.
Wolf
Snowleopard
03-25-2010, 10:22
Forager, thanks for the information. I'd also like to thank you personally and to thank the other Central Adirondack Search and Rescue Team members and the DEC rangers and other personnel.
It's interesting to see what Forager's group has been called for. More than a third of their activations have been for elderly people, some explicitly with Alzheimers. I imagine most of the activations were not called in by cell phone or Spot but by relatives realizing someone was missing.
twosticks
03-25-2010, 10:40
Twosticks,
Not all SAR members are trained. Many are volunteers that have some experience in the wilderness but not as much as you think trying to help.
"anything that can end someone's life" the flip to this is some people really rely on the fact that someone will come bail their butt out and take more chance then they should. As tuswm mention, after telling some people of the danger so people still do their own thing expecting others to risk their life to get them out.
Wolf
Do people feel empowered because they know that someone will save their backsides if something goes wrong? Sure, but is that a bad thing? Like the LoneWolf says as did tuswm, most SAR folks really love what they do. You asked for when should they be used. I answered. If people never needed rescuing, there wouldn't be a need for SAR. Fact is, even seasoned pros sometimes need help. If a hiker knows the risks, takes the precautions and the needed gear, but then has a stroke or a heart attack, how could they have prepared for that? That's what SAR is for.
And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise.
clodhopper
03-25-2010, 11:00
Do people feel empowered because they know that someone will save their backsides if something goes wrong? Sure, but is that a bad thing? Like the LoneWolf says as did tuswm, most SAR folks really love what they do. You asked for when should they be used. I answered. If people never needed rescuing, there wouldn't be a need for SAR. Fact is, even seasoned pros sometimes need help. If a hiker knows the risks, takes the precautions and the needed gear, but then has a stroke or a heart attack, how could they have prepared for that? That's what SAR is for.
And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise.
Good post.
Lone Wolf
03-25-2010, 11:04
Hooch,
[FONT=Verdana]As I'm sure Lone Wolf would agree with me I've been in some VERY ROUGH situation and not a fan of SAR.
it was pure luck you didn't die 15 years ago on the long trail. one more day and i woulda called out SAR to find you. you were out of your league
Jonnycat
03-25-2010, 11:18
Do people feel empowered because they know that someone will save their backsides if something goes wrong? Sure, but is that a bad thing? Like the LoneWolf says as did tuswm, most SAR folks really love what they do. You asked for when should they be used. I answered. If people never needed rescuing, there wouldn't be a need for SAR. Fact is, even seasoned pros sometimes need help. If a hiker knows the risks, takes the precautions and the needed gear, but then has a stroke or a heart attack, how could they have prepared for that? That's what SAR is for.
And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise.
I cannot disagree more with your (irresponsible) position.
SAR is not there so you can push your limits and know you have a safety net. SAR is not a ski patrol that gives you confidence to ski a black diamond run when you don't have the skill.
SAR is there for when you do everything within your power to be responsible, but something goes horribly wrong. When you have no other choice, when it is a life or death situation, that is why there is SAR.
twosticks
03-25-2010, 12:01
I cannot disagree more with your (irresponsible) position.
SAR is not there so you can push your limits and know you have a safety net. SAR is not a ski patrol that gives you confidence to ski a black diamond run when you don't have the skill.
SAR is there for when you do everything within your power to be responsible, but something goes horribly wrong. When you have no other choice, when it is a life or death situation, that is why there is SAR.
Isn't that what I said? I said it should be there for only life threatening emergencies. But if I take all the courses I need, buy all the equipment I need, and gain all the knowledge I need, but then a bear chews off my leg, it's nice to know that, because I left my itinerary with my wife and she doesn't hear back, she can call someone to come help me.
And PS. I don't know you and you don't know me. Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.
Jester2000
03-25-2010, 14:47
I don't think Johnnycat personally attacked you. He attacked your position. There's a difference. I agreed with most of your post. But this part:
"Do people feel empowered because they know that someone will save their backsides if something goes wrong? Sure, but is that a bad thing?"
and this part:
"And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise"
. . . can be interpreted to mean that it's fine to be irresponsible. Probably not your actual point of view. There's nothing wrong with "going outside your comfort level." That's not the same thing as ignoring your experience level, and assuming that having a cell phone (or a SPOT device) will make up for your lack of experience.
Jim Adams
03-25-2010, 15:14
And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise.
I have never found the edge of my comfort level yet but I have done some real STUPID things in my life. I have gotten myself out of alot of dire situations by keeping a cool head, using common sense and no panic. OTOH, that won't always keep me alive...it has just worked so far. If the situation is bad enough for me to die then I certainly wouldn't want anyone else putting themselves into the same situation to attempt to help me. The saving grace for me is that as I get older, I find myself putting myself into less and less of those situations. That increase in common sense every year is certainly better for my well being but if I do something stupid and luck runs out I have only myself to blame and shouldn't rely on the knowledge that someone somewhere wants to come save me.
ie: If conditions are safe and I need rescue due to some accident such as a broken leg or fall then I would definitely call for help but if I am dying due to being somewhere that is life threatening to others then oh well...someone will probably find my body when it is safe to be there.
geek
geek
Wolf - 23000
03-25-2010, 23:48
Do people feel empowered because they know that someone will save their backsides if something goes wrong? Sure, but is that a bad thing? Like the LoneWolf says as did tuswm, most SAR folks really love what they do. You asked for when should they be used. I answered. If people never needed rescuing, there wouldn't be a need for SAR. Fact is, even seasoned pros sometimes need help. If a hiker knows the risks, takes the precautions and the needed gear, but then has a stroke or a heart attack, how could they have prepared for that? That's what SAR is for.
And maybe going outside your level of comfort isn't such a bad thing, especially with the knowledge that someone will help should the need arise.
twosticks,
I don't disagree with Lone Wolf posted that most SAR live for that type of stuff, but if doesn't feel empowered everyone. One of my fears is that someone coming after me is either hurt or worst. That something I don't think I could handle. That is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of SAR.
I also believe there is a time and place when natural things should be left to happen. Some times it is also taken too far in fears that someone may get hurt. There are beautiful trails that are off limits because they are not 100% safe. The wilderness is not 100% safe of course (what is) but if you know that and accept the risk and know it is up to you to get your butt out safely then wouldn't that make it better for everyone. The individuals that expect others to come bail their butts out, might get a wake up call and stay home.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
03-25-2010, 23:51
it was pure luck you didn't die 15 years ago on the long trail. one more day and i woulda called out SAR to find you. you were out of your league
Lone Wolf,
I wouldn't call it "luck". Yes I was in a bad spot but I also kept a cool head and did what I needed to get my butt out. I think that is a little different than luck.
Wolf
twosticks
03-26-2010, 11:04
twosticks,
I also believe there is a time and place when natural things should be left to happen. Some times it is also taken too far in fears that someone may get hurt. There are beautiful trails that are off limits because they are not 100% safe. The wilderness is not 100% safe of course (what is) but if you know that and accept the risk and know it is up to you to get your butt out safely then wouldn't that make it better for everyone. The individuals that expect others to come bail their butts out, might get a wake up call and stay home.
Wolf
Wolf,
At least for me, I wouldn't consider it an expectation. I've never, and I would think that most people have never thought about doing something beyond their comfort spot and thought "If I get in trouble, someone will save me" To be honest, I've never even thought about SAR while on the trail. Now you also have to remember where you're posting this question. Most of us on this site are outdoorsy folks who, at least in theory, know how to handle situations.
I'll tell you the same thing I told the WFA instructor the other day. I'm happy to know how (or that SAR is there), but I hope to never use it.
canoehead
03-26-2010, 11:24
I'm amazed, but if all you folks are that good out there we could use a hand.
We kindly take donations, Don't waste tour skills, go find your local SAR / Rescue Team and join we can use this wealth of knowledge and courage in our teams..
Peace
forager,
Just to clarify something, my post was not to put down you or any of your fellow Search and Rescue volunteers. Sadly a man did die but that was something that is clearly not any SAR volunteer fault. The men left knowing the risk. It is their responsibility to get their butts out alive.
I also sure that you and the rest of your team have a lot of experience but not all SAR volunteer team have that much experience as you. For example, were I'm living right now is Hawaii. We have a lot of people that get lost in the woods. I know it seems kind of silly sense we are on an island but a lot of people still seem to call for a rescue. Often the SAR team members come from a local hiking club that has some wilderness experience but not a lot.
Going back to the story, the men when into an area that had up to 7 feet of snow and when they knew the weather was not going to be very good. The only time you go into weather like that is if you know what you are doing. An experience winter hiker would know you don't camp near the summit of the mountain. You head low in the elevation, not high. The story also states it was raining, so it would be cold but not to the extreme. The snow cave should have kept them alive but would be wet on the bottom I'm sure this is why hypothermia set in. It just seem like they really relied on SAR too much and forgot the basic that could have saved their life.
At night when they made their call, the temperatures normal drop a lot as the wind really pick up a lot.
As you pointed out a cheap GPS would have really helped or carrying a few extra pounds in gear could have made a huge different. The story seems like it has to many problems that an experience winter hiker would know better.
Wolf
As an additional "clarification," on our SAR team, before a member can step into the field they have to pass a course put on by the NYS Forest Rangers called “Basic Wildland Search Skills.” Nationally through FEMA, there is an effort afoot to have a general minimum certification for “land searchers” too (I.E. Wilderness first aid, navigation, gps, radio, attend multiple searches and take several FEMA Incident Command classes) Passing the NYS DEC Wildland Search and Rescue Crew Boss Class allows you to lead a team in the field also earns you a National Level 1 Land Searcher certification.
On the Blackhead Mt. search on Monday the 15th, the DEC specifically requested only Crew Boss certified searchers and no local volunteers were allowed to join the search.
It is true that volunteers show up and want to help on every search -- especially family members -- and there are times, when DEC thinks it’s safe, that they will combine those untrained resources with trained personnel like ours. It’s usually for basic grid search work and we “train them” on the fly. If they don’t listen or take directions we return them to incident command and thank them for trying.
Clarification 2: On Saturday, when the men on Blackhead “got lost” winds were 40-50 mph with heavy snow and gusts estimated up to 75. Visibility was null. I don’t believe the temperatures near the summit were over 32 until Monday afternoon and even then winds were “brisk” at 3,000 ft. where we were.
Clarification 3: No one ever INTENDS to get lost, hurt or need help, no matter how prepared or UNPREPARED they are.
Clarification 4: SAR Teams don’t get cell phone calls from lost or hurt people. We are part of an orderly emergency response system. If you called us directly we’d tell you to call 911 or the Rangers or we’d do it for you. When we get activated, it’s as a “call for resources” and we send what they ask for.
PS - Thank you to those who made kind remarks about Blackhead Mt. responders and to Wolf - I don’t take anything you said personally, I just think you deserved some clarification of circumstances on Blackhead Mt. and of what SAR teams do.
Thanks for chiming in Forager and setting the facts straight on your recent mission , and for your service to SAR.
Accidents in Mountain Rescue Operations (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Appalachian+mountain+club+search+and+rescue+fact s&xa=I3qR2Ck9zTsQcZzBSEIGSg--%2C1269777522&fr=moz2&u=www.escalade.com.au/rescue/media/ShimanskiJan02.pdf&w=appalachian+mountain+mountains+club+search+rescu e+facts+fact&d=Aif_ju_EUgQB&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=ed.jS6x6.MFsZZMWaBFMzQ--) is a good read, early history of SAR in this country and how it grew into what it is today. How personnel put their lives on the line to save others in distress and recover fatalities etc.
For those interested in such matters.
Mentions the Albert Dow rescue accident on MT Washington, among others.
Graywolf
03-27-2010, 16:38
Thanks for chiming in Forager and setting the facts straight on your recent mission , and for your service to SAR.
Accidents in Mountain Rescue Operations (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Appalachian+mountain+club+search+and+rescue+fact s&xa=I3qR2Ck9zTsQcZzBSEIGSg--%2C1269777522&fr=moz2&u=www.escalade.com.au/rescue/media/ShimanskiJan02.pdf&w=appalachian+mountain+mountains+club+search+rescu e+facts+fact&d=Aif_ju_EUgQB&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=ed.jS6x6.MFsZZMWaBFMzQ--) is a good read, early history of SAR in this country and how it grew into what it is today. How personnel put their lives on the line to save others in distress and recover fatalities etc.
For those interested in such matters.
Mentions the Albert Dow rescue accident on MT Washington, among others.
Very good read in deed...I might add, several SAR websites, including NASAR, FEMA, Texas Department of Emergency Management and others all say SAR is a very dangerous activity..Not for the faint of heart in all respects..It takes dedication and commitment to stick your neck out for the life of someone else..I'm proud to be going into a SAR program in a few weeks....
Lone Wolf
03-27-2010, 20:18
SAR is a very dangerous activity..Not for the faint of heart in all respects..It takes dedication and commitment to stick your neck out for the life of someone else..I'm proud to be going into a SAR program in a few weeks....
i applaud you and guys like wolf123,000,000 she join too too share their bad-ass knowledge
even Ernest Shakelton needed to be rescued.
Panzer
i'm a fan of SAR. they serve a purpose
As am I.
Weary
Perhaps a thinning of the gene pool is in order?
I say eliminate SAR, it wouldn't hurt. :sun
Not rescuing innocent people and kids, won't contribute significantly to the thinning of the gene pool.
Even with SAR, most of the timid will walk out anyway. And they provide SAR crews with good training for when SAR has a real rescue to accomplish. Besides, all the exercise helps keep LW fit.
Weary
Wolf,
At least for me, I wouldn't consider it an expectation. I've never, and I would think that most people have never thought about doing something beyond their comfort spot and thought "If I get in trouble, someone will save me" To be honest, I've never even thought about SAR while on the trail. Now you also have to remember where you're posting this question. Most of us on this site are outdoorsy folks who, at least in theory, know how to handle situations.
.....
I'm willing to wager that 99 % oF folks that get into trouble in the outdoors, don't even know that SAR exists when they start out. They just call 911 in a panic, and hope for the best.
Weary
Wolf - 23000
03-28-2010, 00:06
I'm willing to wager that 99 % oF folks that get into trouble in the outdoors, don't even know that SAR exists when they start out. They just call 911 in a panic, and hope for the best.
Weary
Weary, twosticks,
I think people are more intelligent than what you are making them out to be. If someone is calling 911, I'm sure they know about SAR. It wouldn't make sense other wises that someone is calling 911 and expecting the police/or someone else to just drive up and pick them up in the middle of the woods.
Most people don't leave think they will need SAR as you said but they do know the risk and the possibility of what could happen. If you leave for a hike, you know it could be rain/snow on you, or you could have good weather. You know when crossing a slimy log that there is a possibility you could fall in. It is just a matter of common sense.
Wolf
I didn't read all the posts, but hasn't anyone broken their leg hiking? If I had a phone & service, I would surely call 911. Not that I couldn't drag myself 10 miles down a rocky/muddy/steep trail if needed, but why run the risk of turning a minor injury into a potentially serious one?
If you ran into fellow hikers on the trail while you were dragging yourself out, would you turn down assistance? "No, you don't need to make a litter & carry me out, I'll continue crawling along by myself. thanks!" What's the difference between accepting assistance from them or SAR?;)
Graywolf
03-28-2010, 01:09
Weary, twosticks,
I think people are more intelligent than what you are making them out to be. If someone is calling 911, I'm sure they know about SAR. It wouldn't make sense other wises that someone is calling 911 and expecting the police/or someone else to just drive up and pick them up in the middle of the woods.
Most people don't leave think they will need SAR as you said but they do know the risk and the possibility of what could happen. If you leave for a hike, you know it could be rain/snow on you, or you could have good weather. You know when crossing a slimy log that there is a possibility you could fall in. It is just a matter of common sense.
Wolf
Wolf,
You would be surprised how many know about SAR..I was shocked when a few days ago the SSeg from the 436th Air Wing of the Texas State Guard contacted me about me enlistment and wanted to know what program i wanted to go into..When I mentioned SAR he actually had no clue what it was and I had to explain to him..This is from a unit that activily conducts emergency drills for hurricanes, tornados, wildfires and other natural disasters..When I got off the phone with him I called the 19th regiment of the TSG and we talked for a while on SAR..When it was all clear of my intentions on joining the guard, it was an all go..I was relieved..But still could not believe someone in the Guard had no clue what SAR was...I am now in contact with Texas Task Force 1 on SAR operations and drills and have my first BOT on the 10th.Looking forward to it....Passed the first two modules of the FEMA IC courses and looking into Red Cross Wilderness SAR training for May..Lots of work but looking forward to it...
My intention for this post was to just inform that it is surprising how many does not know of SAR..Many just know the basics, Police, Fire Department, Forest Service, etc, etc...I think the public could use a little more "basic" wilderness knowledge information..IMO..
Graywolf
Whoops,
SAR to the rescue on MT Adams in NH (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Breaking+News%3a+Rescuers+ne ar+stranded+hiker&articleId=e1401df5-a20d-4c6b-81e8-61d0c7c090ea)
twosticks
03-29-2010, 13:17
Whoops,
SAR to the rescue on MT Adams in NH (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Breaking+News%3a+Rescuers+ne ar+stranded+hiker&articleId=e1401df5-a20d-4c6b-81e8-61d0c7c090ea)
So I guess **** does happen. Another reason for SAR.
* I put the *'s in myself.
yeah, bodies scattered about like on Everest wouldn't make hiking too appealing.
Tough night to be out on the Whites last night, rain and wind.
SAR people rock !
Jonnycat
03-29-2010, 14:17
Whoops,
SAR to the rescue on MT Adams in NH (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Breaking+News%3a+Rescuers+ne ar+stranded+hiker&articleId=e1401df5-a20d-4c6b-81e8-61d0c7c090ea)
From that source:
--------------------------------------
Soholt was wearing “micro-crampons” and was carrying ski poles when he slipped, Gralenski said, and was not carrying an ax that could have stopped the slide.
“His inability to self-arrest was his undoing,” Gralenski said.
--------------------------------------
Accidents happen, but this was no accident; this deliberately neglectful idiot has no business anywhere but a shopping mall.
I am thankful that the SAR personel who rescued his ignorant ass suffered no injuries.
....I think people are more intelligent than what you are making them out to be. If someone is calling 911, I'm sure they know about SAR. ....
I've been backpacking for 50 years, in all four seasons, often a dozen or more times a year. But when I first saw "SAR" in this thread. I had to look up the meaning.
Never once in all those years had I seriously thought about possibly needing search and rescue. People go hiking to explore wild places. No one thinks about needing rescue.
We all know about 911. It's been drilled into our minds again and again. But "SAR?" Only the good samaritans who provide the service give the idea any serious thought. Well, I should probably exclude the few paranoid timid from this blanket proclamation.
But most of us who run into trouble, just muddle our way out of it, at least until we sense we're in a life or death situation. Then it's 911, and hope that someone gets the message.
Weary
Snowleopard
03-29-2010, 16:43
From that source:
--------------------------------------
Soholt was wearing “micro-crampons” and was carrying ski poles when he slipped, Gralenski said, and was not carrying an ax that could have stopped the slide.
“His inability to self-arrest was his undoing,” Gralenski said.
--------------------------------------
Accidents happen, but this was no accident; this deliberately neglectful idiot has no business anywhere but a shopping mall.
I am thankful that the SAR personel who rescued his ignorant ass suffered no injuries.
He was on the Gulfside trail, which I think is part of the AT there. From the NH Fish and Game press release:
The underlying lesson this incident carries for other hikers is the importance of being prepared for the unexpected in the outdoors. "They were not planning on hiking in technical terrain and packed accordingly," said Gralenski. Soholt was wearing "micro crampons" (similar to ice creepers) and carrying ski poles.
"It is still very much winter above treeline. Although many trails above treeline are not viewed as technical terrain, they are very icy. And, as this incident shows, unexpected accidents can have dire consequences," Gralenski said. "Micro crampons have their place in hiking, but it is not on the Gulfside Trail or any other alpine trails near technical terrain. Traditional crampons and an ice axe, not ski poles, should be standard equipment in this area. If Soholt had these two pieces of gear, he most likely would have been able to prevent his fall or self-arrest immediately after the fall. Not having them could have easily been a fatal mistake. http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35360
This guy slid 1500' into King's Ravine without serious injury! That's amazing. There must be an awful lot of snow covering the boulders there if he didn't hit any.
I think next winter I've got to practice self arrest.
Whoops,
SAR to the rescue on MT Adams in NH (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Breaking+News%3a+Rescuers+ne ar+stranded+hiker&articleId=e1401df5-a20d-4c6b-81e8-61d0c7c090ea)
I N C R E D I B L E .
1:30pm he falls 1,500 survives and calls 911
911 calls out volunteers from Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue with high angle, technical rescue experience Conservation Officers
I love this: "Because Soholt had survived his fall, it was assumed that he had come to rest prior to pitching over the steepest part of the ravine headwall. Ultimately, this would prove to be a false assumption."
8:30 PM, Conservation Officers make visual contact with Soholt because of his headlamp.
"It took about an hour for the rescuers to reach him. Soholt was lowered out of the steep terrain and was able to walk out under his own power with the aid of rescuers."
12:45 a.m. Soholt reached the safety of the trailhead.
"Truthfully, I knew he was all right because he had spoken to 911 after he had fallen. However, if all I had known was where and how far he had fallen, I would have been preparing to remove a critically injured or deceased person," said Lt. Douglas Gralenski of Fish and Game. "He is one very fortunate person to still be with us. If he had hit any rocks or trees of substance on his descent, he would not have survived the fall."
12 hours from his fall and he's in a warm hospital bed.
Does that not put the "who needs SAR" discussion to bed now too?
Does that not put the "who needs SAR" discussion to bed now too?
Probably not.
Wolf - 23000
03-30-2010, 01:38
yeah, bodies scattered about like on Everest wouldn't make hiking too appealing.
Tough night to be out on the Whites last night, rain and wind.
SAR people rock !
woodsy,
No one likes to see scattered bodies around but on the flip side it might keep the people that don't want to except the risk and other wise risk other people lives to bail their butts out - off the trail.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
03-30-2010, 02:15
I've been backpacking for 50 years, in all four seasons, often a dozen or more times a year. But when I first saw "SAR" in this thread. I had to look up the meaning.
Never once in all those years had I seriously thought about possibly needing search and rescue. People go hiking to explore wild places. No one thinks about needing rescue.
We all know about 911. It's been drilled into our minds again and again. But "SAR?" Only the good samaritans who provide the service give the idea any serious thought. Well, I should probably exclude the few paranoid timid from this blanket proclamation.
But most of us who run into trouble, just muddle our way out of it, at least until we sense we're in a life or death situation. Then it's 911, and hope that someone gets the message.
Weary
I don't doubt that you never even thought of calling 911. I'm also sure you also had your share of mishaps and had to just muddle. I've been there a few times myself and just like you muddle my way out.
Both of us are old school, but many rescues now and days are not life and death. Many of them are simple hikes that can't deal with a little bit of discomfort. In some case, they make not smart choices waiting around for someone to come get them.
When someone calls 911, I'm sure they have some idea how someone can come get them. It wouldn't make sense other wise to call for a rescue without knowing how someone can get you. If someone call 911 for a fire, they expect a fire truck to come. If their house is getting rob, they expect the police to come. Why would being in the wilderness be any different?
Wolf
Two Speed
03-30-2010, 07:48
even Ernest Shakelton needed to be rescued.
PanzerFor the record Shackleton did not need rescue for himself; he kept his crew together until he and five other companions could go for help to rescue the rest of his crew.
Way beyond what the average hiker can hope to accomplish.
woodsy,
No one likes to see scattered bodies around but on the flip side it might keep the people that don't want to except the risk and other wise risk other people lives to bail their butts out - off the trail.
Wolf
Good news Wolf is that rescues are waaay down lately in the Whites at least, a hotbed of rescues in recent years. .
I think the message is getting around since they took a stand and got tough on charging for rescue costs in some cases.
I know what you are trying to say and agree that some people might be better off to stay at home seeing they aren't properly prepared to handle bad situations or are clumsy and an accident waiting to happen,"In over their heads".
However, as long as the re are people who venture out into the mountains there will be people who have accidents and get caught unprepared for the worst.
Can't just leave them out to die there when they call for help. Could be one of us someday. How about a little compassion for the not so
fortunate ? :)
Yeah I know, some of these rescued people could have probably made it out on their own if they had too.
I thought about this thread quite a bit this past weekend while I was taking a 16-hour Wilderness First Aid class. The instructor, Heartfire (yes, the Heartfire who makes tents), pointed out that current regular first aid courses have very few situations in which people are supposed to do much more than call 911 and let the experts take it from there. Is it any wonder that people take that mindset with them into the backcountry?
The Wilderness First Aid course teaches us to think about the situation and assess what the immediate dangers might be, and how to deal with the injuries in a way that allows the speediest evacuation. As Heartfire pointed out, that often involves doing as much self-evacuation as possible, instead of waiting passively for rescue.
Interesting course.
WILLIAM HAYES
03-30-2010, 19:27
they have a role but they are not a security blanket you need to be prepared and look out for yourself
Lone Wolf
03-30-2010, 21:50
they have a role but they are not a security blanket you need to be prepared and look out for yourself
and not just in the mountains. if you live in a home you should protect it and it's occupants. arm yourself and don't expect police to be there when the poo hits the fan. 911 is the last resort
From what I've seen, people that live in rural areas tend to be more self reliant. It becomes an ingrained habit...when the nearest store is a 30 mile drive or more, you tend to make do with what you have unless its important...if you're in the middle of a project and you don't have something you need, you're more likely to make it yourself or figure out how to make it work without it...city folks would just spend 10 minutes running down to the hardware store...this attitude carries over into lots of areas of your life...if you dial 911 and emergency services are at your door within a couple minutes, you're more likely to jump at 911 as your first option rather than a last resort.
Where I live, if you dial 911 you'd be lucky to get a police car, fire truck or ambulance pulling in your driveway within 30 minutes...its probably closer to 40 or even more if they have problems finding your house, and they probably will. Living where I live, I consider it mandatory to have guns for self defense and medical training for those kinds of emergencies...and I think about the weather conditions before I light a fire, and if I need to climb up on the roof or cut down a really big tree, I ask a neighbor to come by and help...a great uncle of mine laid in the woods for 3 days and died because a tree fell on him while cutting firewood and he never told his wife where he was going or what he was doing...she reported him missing but they didn't know where to look... You think and do lots of things differently when you live at the end of a dirt road 30 miles from town. And in many ways I don't think all people from the city adopt these same kinds of attitudes when they go hiking...they bring the city way of doing things along with them on their journey.
Whoops,
SAR to the rescue on MT Adams in NH (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Breaking+News%3a+Rescuers+ne ar+stranded+hiker&articleId=e1401df5-a20d-4c6b-81e8-61d0c7c090ea)
Follow up (http://www.courier-littletonnh.com/Articles-c-2010-03-30-150874.113119_AMC_winter_caretaker_survives_1500fo ot_slide_into_King_Ravine.html) on this rescue, seems these guys are no strangers to the area and actually work for AMC. The one guy who did not fall made a gallant attempt to find his fallen buddy.
In this case, SAR could probably be credited with saving Doug's life.
Thanks for the follow up. The guy is lucky to be alive. Though many get away without, the incident proves again that there is no substitute for real crampons and an ice axe in steep winter terrain.
A slip in icy conditions means acceleration at near the free fall rate of 32 feet per second per second. Only immediate use of an ice ax's braking power gives one any chance of stopping once the acceleration begins.
This guy survived because he obviously escaped hitting any trees and rocks during his fall, and the likelihood that soft snow brought him to a gradual stop.
We all gamble from time to time, but the worse advice one can offer on White Blaze may be the oft repeated claim, "An ice axe (and crampons) aren't needed," because someone has gone without and survived.
BTW my acceleration figure is what remains from high school physics 65 years ago. YMMV.
Weary
I've been backpacking for 50 years, in all four seasons, often a dozen or more times a year. But when I first saw "SAR" in this thread. I had to look up the meaning.
Never once in all those years had I seriously thought about possibly needing search and rescue. People go hiking to explore wild places. No one thinks about needing rescue.
We all know about 911. It's been drilled into our minds again and again. But "SAR?" Only the good samaritans who provide the service give the idea any serious thought. Well, I should probably exclude the few paranoid timid from this blanket proclamation.
But most of us who run into trouble, just muddle our way out of it, at least until we sense we're in a life or death situation. Then it's 911, and hope that someone gets the message.
Weary
Maybe it's a location thing, but most folks in Utah are outdoorsy types & know about and appreciate SAR. In fact, they came out and 'rescued' a member of our party last week:D. And yes, I even have a WFR, FWIW.
Maybe it's a location thing, but most folks in Utah are outdoorsy types & know about and appreciate SAR. In fact, they came out and 'rescued' a member of our party last week:D. And yes, I even have a WFR, FWIW.
Probably the roads are farther apart in Utah, compared with New England.
Though a year ago a young couple got lost on a 46-acre local town land trust preserve and called 911. We don't have SAR, but the volunteer fire department went out, and found them around 1 a.m. in this coastal Maine "wilderness." Had they had a compass, a half mile walk, either east, west or south would have intersected one of the the main roads that split our small peninsula town.
Probably the roads are farther apart in Utah, compared with New England.
Though a year ago a young couple got lost on a 46-acre local town land trust preserve and called 911. We don't have SAR, but the volunteer fire department went out, and found them around 1 a.m. in this coastal Maine "wilderness." Had they had a compass, a half mile walk, either east, west or south would have intersected one of the the main roads that split our small peninsula town.
Amazing how people seem to muddle through without SAR. :sun
Jonnycat
04-03-2010, 10:59
Had they had a compass, a half mile walk, either east, west or south would have intersected one of the the main roads that split our small peninsula town.
One of the first things I think about when considering an off-trail adventure is the proximity and direction to the nearest road. For this, all I need is a map and a compass.