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Frosty
10-13-2004, 23:18
I have been looking around at this site (backpackinglight.com), and have no idea if it is worth the 25 bucks they require for membership (which getgs you to the "good" articles).

Do people here subscribe to backpackinglight.com? Is it recommended or not worht the $$?

gardenville
10-13-2004, 23:36
I have been looking around at this site (backpackinglight.com), and have no idea if it is worth the 25 bucks they require for membership (which getgs you to the "good" articles).

Do people here subscribe to backpackinglight.com? Is it recommended or not worht the $$?
I am into my second year and I think it has been worth every penny. They also sell some really nice "made for them" gear and members get a discount. Ask me more detail questions if you want.

tlbj6142
10-14-2004, 11:15
Ditto. Be aware that many of their ariticles are of a technical nature. Which I really like. You never see "science" used to explain backpacking practices elsewhere.

You should also be aware that bpl.com is really about lightweight packing and techniques. If you are not comfortable with a sub 10# base weight, or don't have a desire to hit that point, it may not be for you.

They also have a slight "leaning" toward western backpacking, which in some cases is dramically different than AT hiking. Especially with regards to moisture. Its amazing how much "easier" it is to become a ultra light hiker when the air is airid and it rarely rains.

Check our thier 3-season 3-day gear list to get an idea of what to expect. Don't worry about the brandnames/models so much as the item description. I always use that list (along with the 5# list) as a comparison before I leave for every trip.

I do wish they would give a complete sample menu for their 20oz/day food allotment.

Tater
10-14-2004, 11:59
I would be very leery of spending $25 on a membership. There's a ton of information on lightweight backpacking on the net. I highly doubt that site has any secrets.

Fiddleback
10-14-2004, 12:46
I too just started my second yearly subscription to backpackinglight.com .

If it helps to know, understand I don't give up my money easily (someplace else is a discussion about my reluctant spending and the luxurylite pack) and this is the only paid subscription I have on the 'net. As the British like to say, "It's good value for the money." Additionally, it'd be easy to buy enough stuff from them to make up the subscription cost with the members discount.

I got the subscription about the time I became 'hooked' on the light backpacking concept. The site and the writings do emphasize ultralight which I don't aspire to but the info is relative to all backpacking. I especially like the writings/reviews about clothing and sleep systems. While I doubt I'll ever hit sub-15lbs pack weight, my (solo) pack this summer dropped well below 20lbs with help from backpackinglight.com and forums like this one. For $2+/month I say "go for it!"

FB

Yellow Jacket: Easier to be ultralight in the arid west? Easier camping perhaps but not necessarily lighter. I've got to carry clothing/sleep system for freezing temps during the summer and down to 20 in May and October. There's a fair amount of weight and bulk there. But weatherwise, I do prefer the cooler dryness of western MT to my heat and humidity days on the AT.:sun


FB

chris
10-14-2004, 13:05
They also have a slight "leaning" toward western backpacking, which in some cases is dramically different than AT hiking. Especially with regards to moisture. Its amazing how much "easier" it is to become a ultra light hiker when the air is airid and it rarely rains.


Wait until you have to put 2 gallons of water on your back, or 10 days of supplies.

tlbj6142
10-14-2004, 13:23
Ok, so maybe easier wasn't the correct term. How about more comfortable?

Water and food needs are obviously trip dependent. And have little to do with a hiking style or techniques. Though if you are not prepared to deal with those issues you might be SOL. But, then, being prepared is 80% of lightweight backpacking.

20F temps, while certainly colder than what is typically found in the East's definition of "3-season", is by no means that cold. Probably results in carrying a 5-6 extra ounces over a 32F "3-season" kit.

I've never been one to buy into the whole "gear is bulky" thing. With the exception of desert hiking (losts of water) and on a thru hike (after the hunger kicks in), you can easily do a 20F kit in 30L (~2000ci) of pack space with 5+ days worth of food.

Heck, Ryan Jordan (head dude at bpl.com), did a 6 day/150 mile trip with the tiny G6 (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/g6_whisper.html). And, a 10-day 235mile trip (no resupplies) with 19.6# (includes food, fuel and gear, but not water) all in a GoLite Dawn (2400ci).

The Solemates
10-14-2004, 13:42
my theory: I never pay for information like this, because you can find the same stuff elsewhere...like whiteblaze! and if you have a half-way working brain, most of the stuff you can figure out on your own. or maybe its just because i am an engineer...who knows.

chris
10-14-2004, 13:52
Ok, so maybe easier wasn't the correct term. How about more comfortable?

Water and food needs are obviously trip dependent. And have little to do with a hiking style or techniques. Though if you are not prepared to deal with those issues you might be SOL. But, then, being prepared is 80% of lightweight backpacking.

20F temps, while certainly colder than what is typically found in the East's definition of "3-season", is by no means that cold. Probably results in carrying a 5-6 extra ounces over a 32F "3-season" kit.

I've never been one to buy into the whole "gear is bulky" thing. With the exception of desert hiking (losts of water) and on a thru hike (after the hunger kicks in), you can easily do a 20F kit in 30L (~2000ci) of pack space with 5+ days worth of food.

Heck, Ryan Jordan (head dude at bpl.com), did a 6 day/150 mile trip with the tiny G6 (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/g6_whisper.html). And, a 10-day 235mile trip (no resupplies) with 19.6# (includes food, fuel and gear, but not water) all in a GoLite Dawn (2400ci).

Complete sun, little shade, and 100+ degree air temperatures might not be super comfortable, depending on your perspective. Note, even at elevation, you can get into a land like thing. The Sierra can be a very hot place, let alone the desert floor. Or, consider that the Olympics are technically a rain forest and get a ton of precip in the summer. Or, take a look at any of the CDT hiker journals on trailjournals to see what some of the climate conditions are. I prefer the West, but it isn't always sunshine (except for when I hiked the PCT).

Food and water considerations are, I suggest, very important when determining in what style you will hike. For example, this winter I will be in Death Valley on a long, long trip. It looks like I will have to pack upwards of 5 gallons of water on some legs. So, water weight alone is about 44 lbs. Add 4 days of food in for another 10 pounds. So, now water and food will dictate how I hike, as I've got 54 lbs of that at times. I simply can't take my little packs and won't be covering 25 miles a day.

Ryan Jordan is an expert at getting through with little gear. He also has a high tolerance for suffering. While I could get a kit together to travel in 20F weather that would fit in a small pack, I like having the extra comfort and safety margin. In the winter, there is much less daylight. Consequently, I tend to spend more time in camp than usual. So, I like to have things around me that make camp life nice (book, warm clothes,etc). In the summer, when I am hiking most of the day, I would rather have my hiking time be as comfortable as possible, and so strip down my stuff.

steve hiker
10-14-2004, 13:52
20F temps, while certainly colder than what is typically found in the East's definition of "3-season", is by no means that cold. Probably results in carrying a 5-6 extra ounces over a 32F "3-season" kit.
To the contrary, low temps out West are a lot "warmer" than the same temps in the East, because of the lack of humidity out West. 25 degrees in Colorado is warmer than 40 degrees in Tennessee.

Frosty
10-14-2004, 13:58
my theory: I never pay for information like this, because you can find the same stuff elsewhere...like whiteblaze! and if you have a half-way working brain, most of the stuff you can figure out on your own. or maybe its just because i am an engineer...who knows.I'm an engineer, too. I love modifying gear and tools, and finding obscure information and alternate solutions. On the other hand, we engineers do have an expression: "don't re-inventing the wheel," as in don't waste resources (including time) figuring things out that other people have already figured out. Interesting dichotomy.

It certainly goes against my grain to pay money unnecessarily (which is why I asked for feedback from backpackinglight.com users), but since everyone who actually paid for the site recommends it, I'll guess I'll give it a shot.

Thanks to all who answered, and if it wasn't worth the $$, I'll whine loudly enough that everyone will know :)

tlbj6142
10-14-2004, 14:21
To the contrary, low temps out West are a lot "warmer" than the same temps in the East, because of the lack of humidity out West. 25 degrees in Colorado is warmer than 40 degrees in Tennessee.I always though humidity made it feel warmer, not colder. That's one reason why your furnace guy tells you should install a $400 whole house humidifier. "Your house will feel warmer at a lower setting."

Mags
10-14-2004, 14:26
To the contrary, low temps out West are a lot "warmer" than the same temps in the East, because of the lack of humidity out West. 25 degrees in Colorado is warmer than 40 degrees in Tennessee.


This statement is one I have to agree with!

I grew up in Rhode Island. For those who do not know what a winter is like in southern New England let me sum it up: cold, damp, chill to the bone cold! Throw in some "black ice" and I never, ever, ever, ever want to move back there. It does not snow as much there as say, Maine, but when it does snow it is "concrete" snow. As the oldest of three boys, I had the "pleasure" of shoveling this snow. Ugggh!

Now I live in Colorado. Even in the high country, it can be sub-32F and I am just in my polypro top with shell pants while snowshoeing, telemark falling (sorry, I am so bad at telemarking that I do a dis-service to it by calling it "skiing" !) . I find the winters here much more gentle than where I grew up. I spend almost as much time playing during the winter as I do in the summer. That includes at least 3 winter backpacking trips per season.


What does all this mean for lightweight backpacking? My base packweight is sub-10 lbs. If I had to hike the AT again (esp. in an El Nino year like 1998) would probably carry some sort of tent because it is much more humid and damp. I bitch and moan when I have three days of rain here in Colorado. Three days of rain back East? Why, it is a drought! :)

Not saying one is easier than the other. Just the opposite; all environments have different challenges that mae gear selection important.

tlbj6142
10-14-2004, 14:39
This statement is one I have to agree with!Could it be the sun? Seems like the sun is out more in the winter "out west" than in the east.

Of course, the 20F temps are probably reached at night.

gravityman
10-14-2004, 14:55
If you are a gear addict it is worth it. If you don't care about a really good review of the latest eVent jacket and whether it is worth buying, or the new tents, then it isn't worth it.

$25 to pick the perfect rain jacket, rather than 3 rain jackets at $80 (cheap!) each, and you saved money!

Gravity

Fiddleback
10-14-2004, 15:37
For all you engineers...

"Dr. Ryan Jordan is the Publisher at Beartooth Mountain Press and co-founder of Backpacking Light Magazine.
Ryan has a B.S. in Civil Engineering and an M.S. in Environmental Engineering from Washington State University, and a Ph.D. in Biofilm Engineering from Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/ (http://www.erc.montana.edu/)). Ryan spent seven years at Montana State University as a Senior Research Engineer managing a research and industry testing program in biofilm science, focusing on backcountry water quality and treatment, moisture transport in next to skin performance textiles, and anti-infective medical device coating performance. Ryan is the co-founder of the Biofilm Institute (http://www.biofilm.org (http://www.biofilm.org/)), where he was the founding Editor-in-Chief of Biofilms Online (http://www.biofilmsonline.com/ (http://www.biofilmsonline.com/)), the Internet's leading clearinghouse for information and research about biofilm science and engineering for medical and industrial communities. Ryan remains on Montana State University's adjunct faculty and serves on the Management Team as a Senior Partner for Cytergy (http://www.cytergy.com (http://www.cytergy.com/)), the largest U.S.-based provider of scientific e-learning programs in biofilm science and engineering to Fortune 500 corporations, pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies, federal agency, and higher education sectors. Ryan also remains active in corporate consulting and training in the area of biofilm science, and is a co-editor of Advances in Biofilm Science and Engineering"

This and the remainder of Ryan's bio can be found at:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/ryan_jordan_bio.html

Maybe the differences in the east and west regions don't account for heavier or bulkier packs in one place or the other. But I believe I have to be prepared for more eventualities here than I did in the mid-Atlantic seaboard...I never felt at risk in MD/VA/PA/WV but I do here. Not just because I'm futher from help, but because the extremes seem to be more extreme more of the time. Colder colds, dryer drys, more intense sun, steeper climbs, crankier grizzly bears...etc. And that was just my one night backpack in May! :p But again I say, bring 'em all on -- I'm just happy to be out of that humidity!

FB

tlbj6142
10-14-2004, 16:25
Ryan Jordan is an expert at getting through with little gear. He also has a high tolerance for suffering.He does like to suffer. Check out this trip report (http://ftp.backpackinglight.com/galleries/LostCoast04/index.html) of his. He claims he wouldn't change a thing about his gear list if he were to go on the same trip again. Of course, had it been about 10 degrees cooler he would have had some real issues.

chris
10-14-2004, 19:12
I particularly liked his Winds trip last fall. See it at
http://ftp.backpackinglight.com/galleries/Winds03/

Mags
10-14-2004, 20:12
or bulkier packs in one place or the other. But I believe I have to be prepared for more eventualities here than I did in the mid-Atlantic seaboard...I never felt at risk in MD/VA/PA/WV but I do here. FB


That may be the difference. I did my formative backpacking (including winter) in New England. New Englands gets a bit chilly in winter. :D

I honestly think New England winters are worse than anything I've experienced in Colorado. Had the pleasure of being on Mt. Washington in January where I had to turn around. Interesting...

Of course, Colorado is more temperate than Montana, so as always YMMV.

As for Ryan Jordan, I noticed he wears a Tilley! As a fellow Tilley owner, I gotta say that is way cool. Tilley owners tend to be protective of their hats. :)

fullofadventure
10-14-2004, 20:49
I think it is well worth the $25 and I am now on my second year too. I really like the gear reviews the best and the info and pics from OMR shows.

ndwoods
10-16-2004, 23:47
If you buy much of his stuff the discounted price will make the subscription pay for itself...

Pencil Pusher
10-17-2004, 19:21
Man don't pay for that subscription, just push the right buttons here and you'll get all sorts of varying opinions... like this thread!!

Fiddleback
10-17-2004, 19:39
Of course, you have to add in the cost of our contributions to White Blaze when comparing those varied opinions to those available at backpackinglight.com

FB

DavidR
11-03-2004, 22:24
I agree with most here that the $25 is well worth it. Great advise and good discounts if you buy anything. Ryan is very friendly as well.

Frosty
11-03-2004, 23:13
Man don't pay for that subscription, just push the right buttons here and you'll get all sorts of varying opinions... like this thread!!Opinions? No one ever gives me opinoions, Guess it's because I'm so uncontroversial. I just hike along drunk with an unleashed dog, drinking unfiltered water on a blueblazed trail carrying a 75 # pack with no maps or t.p., hurrying because the rangers are chasing me for skipping out on fees and nailing politcal posters to shelters (where I just left religious pamphlets).

Fiddleback
11-03-2004, 23:28
Katz? Is that you?!?

DavidR
11-04-2004, 21:36
Opinions? No one ever gives me opinoions, Guess it's because I'm so uncontroversial. I just hike along drunk with an unleashed dog, drinking unfiltered water on a blueblazed trail carrying a 75 # pack with no maps or t.p., hurrying because the rangers are chasing me for skipping out on fees and nailing politcal posters to shelters (where I just left religious pamphlets).
This is to funny, unfortunately their are to many people on the trail like this.

Frosty
11-05-2004, 00:09
This is to funny, unfortunately their are to many people on the trail like this.Say it isn't so! I figured it was just that people are weird on-line, and that on the trail hikers will be tolerant and accepting of each other.

Bloodroot
11-05-2004, 04:11
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/cocoon_pullover.html

I wonder how this will rate?

walkin' wally
11-05-2004, 08:39
Opinions? No one ever gives me opinoions, Guess it's because I'm so uncontroversial. I just hike along drunk with an unleashed dog, drinking unfiltered water on a blueblazed trail carrying a 75 # pack with no maps or t.p., hurrying because the rangers are chasing me for skipping out on fees and nailing politcal posters to shelters (where I just left religious pamphlets).

Darn it Frosty, I guess I missed all the fun when we we did Mt Carlo to Mahoosuc Notch this fall. No wonder you hit the blue blaze so soon!!! :D

I hope you hit a lot of blue blazes on your thru next year. Good luck and have all that fun.

When are you going to post your pics here at Whiteblaze???

Walkin Wally :sun

tlbj6142
11-05-2004, 10:21
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/cocoon_pullover.html
I wonder how this will rate?The pullover seems to be a great buy. I'm actually surprised it doesn't cost more. The price is in line with the new(?) Montbell Synthetic jacket and a bit higher than the MEC pullover. Neither of which use Pertex Quantum or PGD.

I'd pre-order one in a heartbeat if it was Xmas shopping season.

chris
11-05-2004, 11:21
Um, the MEC pullover (Northern Lite II) is about $80 Canadian. With today's exchange rate, that is about $64 USD. Toss in a $5 CA membership fee. Still, much, much less than the Cocoon. Moreover, the Cocoon has been advertised for more than a year now and finally there is a price. But, it is still out of stock and still not shipping.

Having a waterproof shell on primary insulation doesn't seem to be that big of a benefit, as one usually has a hardshell of some sort laying around. Even though the Cocoon weighs less, I just can't see any great reason for buying the Cocoon.

Bloodroot
11-05-2004, 11:25
The pullover seems to be a great buy. I'm actually surprised it doesn't cost more. The price is in line with the new(?) Montbell Synthetic jacket and a bit higher than the MEC pullover. Neither of which use Pertex Quantum or PGD.

I'd pre-order one in a heartbeat if it was Xmas shopping season.
Yeh I was also comparing it with a Montbell, and having those added features. Does seems to be a great buy. Never had any Bozeman Mtn Works gear before. Wonder how it stands up?

Kerosene
11-05-2004, 13:21
Never had any Bozeman Mtn Works gear before. Wonder how it stands up?FYI, BackpackingLight.com seems to carry a lot of the Bozeman gear. While I have no personal experience, I'd bet that, like most good ultralight equipment, it will hold up pretty well if you're not too hard on equipment. If you need bulletproof stuff, then you probably need to go with the heavier, widely recognized brands.

Bloodroot
11-05-2004, 13:31
FYI, BackpackingLight.com seems to carry a lot of the Bozeman gear. While I have no personal experience, I'd bet that, like most good ultralight equipment, it will hold up pretty well if you're not too hard on equipment. If you need bulletproof stuff, then you probably need to go with the heavier, widely recognized brands.
Yeh I noticed that is their brand of choice. Not too hard on equipment (I guess?), but I have had ultralite gear in the past that have not stood up, even on little weekenders.

Kerosene
11-05-2004, 13:38
I would expect Bozeman to hold up for a weekend, at the very least, and for BackpackingLight.com to accept returns. Hopefully someone else on this site has direct experience with this vendor.

tarbubble
11-05-2004, 13:49
i'm fairly certain that Ryan Jordan owns Bozeman Mountain Works, in addition to Backpackinglight.com. he's offering his own products, i believe.

i have the TorsoLite pad from Bozeman MW. it's made by POE/InsulMat so it's good quality. i have an acquaintance who has their bivy and it seemed well-made. that coccoon pullover looks sweet. thru-hiker.com has plans available for a homemade insulated pullover that's pretty close to the coccoon, for all you DIY sewers out there.

tlbj6142
11-05-2004, 15:22
Still, much, much less than the Cocoon.True. But how much loft does it have? It does weigh more.
Moreover, the Cocoon has been advertised for more than a year now and finally there is a price. But, it is still out of stock and still not shipping.The first batch is shipping at the end of the month. There was a major design change sometime last year. Which, I'm sure, accounts for some of the delay. Though delayed product releases are status quo on bpl.com.
Having a waterproof shell on primary insulation doesn't seem to be that big of a benefit, as one usually has a hardshell of some sort laying around.The Cocoon isn't waterproof. Pertex Quantum is just barely water resistent.

Bpl (and BMW) attempts to build the lightest gear for the job. Though even they slip a bit. The Cocoon has a damn pocket on it.:D

BMW and BPL.com are both "owned" by Ryan Jordan (and friends). I really think of BMW as more for a prototype company. I think it was Ryan's original vision(?) to show "what could be done" and "all that is needed" in hopes that other manufactures would catch on. Though with the Cocoon, I think he is planning to really build a distribution chain of some sorts.

I don't believe I own a BMW product, but I have purchase several items from bpl.com. Including the new (yellow) bearbag cord (only, not the entire setup), possum down gloves (they rock), the bpl glasses thingy and a few dropper bottles/containers (for AM, Dr. B, DEET and SPF). They have all held up fine.

The lazy person in me would love to buy the G6, but I know I can make a similar pack for a bit less and add a feature, or two, I think are missing from the G6 (like side water bottle holders, and a minimal hipbelt w/ pouches).

I'd also like to the BMW Vapr Bivy, but again, I know I can make one for about half to 2/3 the price.

I have a Arc-like down bag I build myself that weighs 18.5oz, which cost me about $150 to make.

chris
11-05-2004, 17:04
True. But how much loft does it have? It does weigh more.

It has enough loft to keep me warm down to freezing, with a midweight thermal top, hat, gloves, and Schoeller pants. I can't give a loft number because I do not have one. I can only give a functional concept.

In terms of weight, my XL weighs in at 13.3 oz. Using BPLs numbers extrapolated linearly the weight should (it should actually increase as a square, but let's be simple) the weight for an XL should be 10.1 oz. A whopping 3.2 oz different, assuming that BPLs measurements are accurate in production.

The MEC pullover costs (in USD, roughly, with a MEC membership) $67. If you buy a membership at BPL and the use the discount, the Cocoon costs $175. The total cost difference is now $108 to save 3.2 oz. Or, in other words, $33.75 per ounce of savings. I think I'd rather have the $108 and save the 3.2 oz by taking one fewer pair of socks. If you were going to spend $174, you might as well get a down jacket for about the same price and get a lot more insulation. If you already have a BPL membership and a MEC membership, the cost difference is less, only $87, or $27.12 per ounce.

tlbj6142
11-17-2004, 12:55
bpl.com just posted a series of reviews on synthetic jackets/pullovers/vests. The comments on the MEC pullover, and vest, make it clear it is their top choice. Their only complaint was the weight. As the shell, and inner liner, materials could be lighter. And to use PG Delta rather than Primaloft PL1.

I sure either change would result in a price increase. Especially the switch to PGD over PL1.

gravityman
11-17-2004, 14:32
bpl.com just posted a series of reviews on synthetic jackets/pullovers/vests. The comments on the MEC pullover, and vest, make it clear it is their top choice. Their only complaint was the weight. As the shell, and inner liner, materials could be lighter. And to use PG Delta rather than Primaloft PL1.

I sure either change would result in a price increase. Especially the switch to PGD over PL1.

Hmm... They didn't reveiw their own cocoon, and judging from the summary I read, it seemed that the Puffball was their favorite... Another great review by BPL! Worth my $25!

Gravity

tlbj6142
11-17-2004, 15:51
They don't "review" their own items. I guess they consider that self serving. From reading the puff ball review, I think it loses out on "value" (and what doesn't) compared to the MEC gear.

chris
11-17-2004, 16:10
MEC is really an amazing company. It is extremely rare that I've found a piece of clothing made ANY other company that can compete with the MEC line. When you factor in value, there is no competition. For example, the top-of-the-line MEC softshell jacket costs around $150 Canadian, which works out to be something like $120 USD. Compare that with the top Marmot or Mountain Hardware versions for more like $250 USD.

The main thing with MEC gear is that it is built for mountains. That means extra weight. They don't really have an ultralight line. However, they have enough lightweight gear. For example, I got a windshirt from them on sale for about $20 USD. It weighs 5.7 oz in large. I could shave two ounces from this if I was willing to buy a more expensive Montane one (like $100).

There are only a couple of clothing pieces that I might get from somewhere other than MEC, and both are from Integral Designs (a warm hat and a jacket). Again, it is possible to find lighter bits of gear. However, in the grand scheme of things, cutting 9 oz. from packweight by spending a few hundred extra dollars just isn't very effective.

DavidR
12-30-2004, 14:07
[QUOTE=chris]MEC is really an amazing company. It is extremely rare that I've found a piece of clothing made ANY other company that can compete with the MEC line. When you factor in value, there is no competition. For example, the top-of-the-line MEC softshell jacket costs around $150 Canadian, which works out to be something like $120 USD. Compare that with the top Marmot or Mountain Hardware versions for more like $250 USD.

QUOTE]

Doesn't MEC just copy products from other companies? I thought I read this somewhere. With this in mind (if I'm thinking correctly) I imagine it would be hard for other manufacuterers to compete with pricing since these other manufacturers would have to develop the product as well.