View Full Version : Shuttle Service Liability
white_russian
04-15-2010, 14:58
On the subject of proper permits and insurance, what happens to the passenger if a service doesn't have these things and something like an accident occurs? I know the driver is in a mess, but if I use a non legit service can the passenger get screwed? I try to use legit services where possible, but some areas just don't have have them.
Kel, the "Stickman"
04-15-2010, 17:45
On the subject of proper permits and insurance, what happens to the passenger if a service doesn't have these things and something like an accident occurs? I know the driver is in a mess, but if I use a non legit service can the passenger get screwed? I try to use legit services where possible, but some areas just don't have have them.
Interesting thought... Never crossed my mind. I guess I was never concerned, and have never used a "Shuttle Service". I have accepted PLENTY of "rides to town" from "just plain ol' folks" who were being friendly and helpful, and I have offered up many rides from trailhead to town, and vice-versa. I have also shared meals, advice, etc. to hikers...
So, let's see... yup, I DO have liability insurance (automotive), as it is required in Maine. ...but I am not licensed or insured to serve, or share food. ...and I'm also not a certified, or insured, consultant, so I might be opening a can of worms when I carry on a conversation, and advice is offered up.
I'm not really trying to be funny, as I'm sure that just being a nice person often makes a person liable. I think that what you are talking about is someone LICENSED as a shuttle service? Or, say... someone is running a "pay for stay" hikers' hostel, and INCLUDES in that cost a shuttle, "free", or otherwise. I guess they would want to be insured for liability!
Any other thoughts???
Stickman
http://www.scripturesticks.com/
Kel, the "Stickman"
04-15-2010, 17:49
On the subject of proper permits and insurance, what happens to the passenger if a service doesn't have these things and something like an accident occurs? I know the driver is in a mess, but if I use a non legit service can the passenger get screwed? I try to use legit services where possible, but some areas just don't have have them.
To answer that part... YES! And the driver can also be screwed, as the passenger has the right to sue.
Stickman
http://www.scripturesticks.com/
I'm not sure but I think:
if the driver was shuttling a paying passenger then his personal auto insurance policy would not cover a paying passenger in the event of an accident. He would need to have commercial insurance to cover a paying passenger.
If the shuttle ride was free but the passenger elected to leave a tip, then the passenger would be covered under a personal policy as long as the driver did not ask for money.
Panzer
SawnieRobertson
04-15-2010, 18:45
Well, I guess that blows my hope for millions. Moving my name from the ATC shuttle list right now!!--Kinnickinic
Tuckahoe
04-15-2010, 19:10
Panzer I think pretty much summed it up. There are those that are offering a professional service and those a favor. Choose accordingly and remember that in the end, only you are responsible for yourself and your choices that you make.
SawnieRobertson
04-15-2010, 19:53
Actually, yes, I had thought about how I was potentially jeopardizing myself by charging for shuttling. If I came out as practically a taxi service, I figured that I'd need a commercial driver's license and extra ($$$) insurance that would gobble up any "profit" for me as well as most hikers' budgets. I have a squeaky clean driving record, so I thought maybe that would help at least ease the potential fears of those whom I shuttled. Yes, there would probably also be other licenses too. If it were a business, then I'll bet those seatbelts in back would have to work. And would my 1994 Honda Accord with 249,000 miles on it be acceptable? So, last year when I decided to begin shuttling again but only at a pre-agreed rate that would reimburse me for upkeep, gasoline, and, yes, even my time, I worked out what I thought was a fair price. It won't cover the necessary costs of being "legit," which I always considered myself to be regardless. Isn't it funny how the initial question on this thread turns everything sour--at least for me.--Kinnickinic
Blissful
04-15-2010, 20:02
PM Skyline on this topic, he knows it
The details will vary from state-to-state. However, most states have some kind of agency that regulates for-hire transportation. It is most commonly a Public Service Commission or a Dept. of Motor Vehicles division.
In Virginia, if you take money for a ride the DMV considers you to be a commercial service just like a taxi or limo. It doesn't matter what you call the money (a specified charge, a tip, a little help with gas expenses, whatever...) it is all the same in their eyes.
The state can enforce this regulation, and has in the past targeted segments of the for-hire industry that try to get by without complying with the laws, don't have the necessary permit (called an Operating Authority), don't have safe vehicles, have drivers with bad records, or most prominently do not carry commercial liability insurance as specified in the statutes having to do with qualifying for Operating Authority.
If a for-hire transaction takes place, and there is an accident that involves injuries, there will almost certainly be insurance claims filed by the injured parties (either passengers or folks travelling in other vehicles involved in the accident). Then insurance investigators get involved. One person transporting a van full of people who he had no previous relationship with raises a red flag, and the insurance company investigators go into overdrive trying to prove this was a commercial transaction. There is a financial incentive for the investigator to find out about the exchange of money, so his bosses can get out of paying claims. Typically, someone spills the beans.
Once the insurance company covering the shuttler's vehicle finds that it was for-hire, and the owner only had regular consumer-grade insurance (think Allstate, Geico, etc.) then the insurance company has every right to deny any claims. It typically also cancels the shuttler's insurance policy. Consumer policies specifically ban commercial service from coverage.
This puts the shuttle operator's assets at risk because he or she will likely be sued for damages. The passengers and others involved in the accident are also SOL because they will most likely never recover the money needed for medical treatment or other damages from that illegal shuttle operator. It becomes a mess that could have been avoided if only the shuttle operator had been legit from the get-go.
Commercial liability insurance is more expensive than consumer insurance, and there are more hoops to jump through to be approved for coverage. Like any other type of insurance, the underwriters are seeking to cover only the least likely to cost them money through claims. A good policy can cost as little as $2,500 per year per vehicle. I have seen quotes up to $6,000 per vehicle. It is possible to make a modest living as a commercially insured, legit driver if one does it full time and seeks other types of transportation clientele in addition to the hiking communities. Hiker revenue contributes to a seasonal business at best.
Virginia Police and DMV officials have not made as strong an effort to bring AT shuttlers in line as they have the gypsy cabs that run afoul of the law at airports, hotels, etc. Ditto in Pennsylvania those working in the underground economy that provides rides to the Amish. But they do know about the AT and its diverse shuttle operators because they are aware of the places they advertise. A shuttler who simply parks near a trail crossing to solicit business is not as likely to get that dreaded certified mail from the DMV or State Police as someone who puts his name and contact info on a printed or internet shuttle list.
Of course if no money of any description exchanges hands, it is not against the law.
Blue Jay
04-16-2010, 09:35
On the subject of proper permits and insurance, what happens to the passenger if a service doesn't have these things and something like an accident occurs? I know the driver is in a mess, but if I use a non legit service can the passenger get screwed? I try to use legit services where possible, but some areas just don't have have them.
Sue happy people shut down much of the good in this country.
Actually, yes, I had thought about how I was potentially jeopardizing myself by charging for shuttling.
If there was an accident you should not mention the fact that the passenger was a paying passenger unless you are asked. I'm not saying to lie about the fact, just don't volunteer that info. Chances are nobody will ask. But if you are asked you should tell the truth.
Panzer
people who shuttle hikers are in a gray area between being a professional taxi service and being a private driver. the problem is that insurance does not recognized a "gray area". your either a professional driver and pay higher insurance rates or a private driver paying much lower rates.
Panzer
On the subject of proper permits and insurance, what happens to the passenger if a service doesn't have these things and something like an accident occurs? .
WOW!...you are embarking on a 2, 175 mile journey & youre worried abt a
shuttle driver having insurance???
i'll be section hiking Clarks Valley,PA up to Greenwood Lake,NY
Apr 24-May 8
w/ "Jigsaw" (he has INSURANCE...but, i dont worry abt it!)
I don't think he's worried about the insurance question, he's just asking because he wants to be informed so he can make informed decisions while he's on the trail. Its just one more of the many things that have to be taked into consideraton when preparing to thru.
Panzer
white_russian
04-16-2010, 13:28
WOW!...you are embarking on a 2, 175 mile journey & youre worried abt a
shuttle driver having insurance???
i'll be section hiking Clarks Valley,PA up to Greenwood Lake,NY
Apr 24-May 8
w/ "Jigsaw" (he has INSURANCE...but, i dont worry abt it!)
What gave you the false impression that I am embarking on a 2175 mile journey? Did I ever say that? Heck this information is more relevant to section hikers anyway.
You see these folks that respond to every question on here as if it is related to thru hiking. Some folks need to realize that this board is not only for thru hikers, but all hikers of the AT and to a lesser extent other trails as well.
WalkingStick75
04-16-2010, 14:48
White Russian, good question and you are right this is more a section hiker issue than a thru hiker issue. I have used shuttle services a few times and I remember one that their driving really scared the s@#t out of me and my son.
Oh yea, most people on this board just flat out do not hike. This is not to say they didn't use to hike or not good people but the actual number is probably low. Hmmm, maybe a good poll question.
Blue Jay
04-17-2010, 11:10
Oh yea, most people on this board just flat out do not hike. This is not to say they didn't use to hike or not good people but the actual number is probably low.
I also think this is correct and is important.