View Full Version : Frame or Frameless Pack?
I am not ultra-light or even light yet, but I am in the making of a list of light gear to get, in prep of some hiking this summer and eventually a thru hike in 2011.
So I am wondering if I should get a lightweight frame pack (particularly the osprey exos 58 2lbs 8oz ) or a frameless pack such as Zpacks blast 32 at 4.3oz
While I am trying to go lightweight I am willing to make some trades of weight for comfort.
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 20:41
I am not ultra-light or even light yet, but I am in the making of a list of light gear to get, in prep of some hiking this summer and eventually a thru hike in 2011.
So I am wondering if I should get a lightweight frame pack (particularly the osprey exos 58 2lbs 8oz ) or a frameless pack such as Zpacks blast 32 at 4.3oz
While I am trying to go lightweight I am willing to make some trades of weight for comfort.
Internal frame verses frameless is completely dependant on your baseweight and what items you are carrying. If you are nowhere near lightweight or UL, then the Blast 32 is not going to work for you.
Standard advise-- purchase the pack last, so that you get that pack thats fits you and your gear.
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 20:47
FWIW-- I wouldn't want to carrying more than 20-25lbs including food & water in a frameless pack such as a Blast, G4 etc. That is not to say that you couldn't get away with 30lb with some frameless packs, but they are not designed to be load haulers.
If your pack weight is up there or will be up there, then a nice trade off between capacity (46L) and maximum load recommendation (35Lb) is the GG Gorilla which costs $165 and weighs in at around 24oz.
Chrisfol is right. Frameless is only going to work with other lightweight gear.
Cool AT Breeze
04-20-2010, 21:20
You're close enough to come up and talk to us and pick our brains. You can even put your hands on some gear.
I am planning on getting a lighter pack to replace my bora 80 before this summer and seriously doubt I will have bought all the light gear on my list so I was trying to get a better picture on what kind of pack to get and exactly how light I will be able to go.
I guess I will see where I am next month weight wise and then decide wither or not to go with a frame pack or not.
You can carry a surprising amount of weight in a properyl loaded frameless pack. I somehow got by with a 2800 cu. in. Golite Dawn pack on my hike through the Hundred mile Wilderness (8 days). Funny thing is, after going whole hog after the ultralight thing, I forgot to weigh my pack before the trip, but it MUST have weighed at LEAST 35 lbs. It was a bit of a burden for the first two days, more comfortable after three, and a joy to carry the rest of the way. Thruhikers with frame packs were jealous of the weight of my pack (I really could have used just a tad more clothing insulation).
My pack fits my back perfectly - that's one thing to remember about all packs, but more especially the frameless variety. The most structurally rigid frameless packs use a closed cell foam liner, not merely a back support, so you stuff your gear into a cylinder of supportive foam which rests vertically in your pack bag. This is difficult to do with a pack that is not the same circumference on the top and the bottom.
i have a light pack, but i'd imagine frameless must BLOW when it gets hot out due to it sitting right on your back. maybe i'm wrong
ChrisFol
04-21-2010, 23:39
i have a light pack, but i'd imagine frameless must BLOW when it gets hot out due to it sitting right on your back. maybe i'm wrong
In my experience, you are incorrect.
Generally speaking, if you are using an ultra-light frameless pack like a G4, Ohm, Blast etc then you baseweight is around 10lbs, if not less, and your total skin-out weight is around 20lbs for a 5/6day trip.
Carrying 20lbs does not press the pack right up agains't your back, unlike 35lbs-- were you are sweating just because of the weight! If my trips are only 3/4 days then the weight on my back is even less!
i have a light pack, but i'd imagine frameless must BLOW when it gets hot out due to it sitting right on your back. maybe i'm wrong
They may be a bit hotter, but remember that the part of the pack which touches your back on an internal frame pack is foam padded. Foam is a very good insulator (and takes a long time to dry).
bigcranky
04-22-2010, 07:07
If you are planning to lighten up all your gear, then get the Ultralight pack last. Seriously. Nothing is worse than traditional gear stuffed into a 9-ounce frameless ruck. Once you have all the rest of your UL gear, you can get the right pack.
For now, the Exos is a great choice. However, I would get the 46, not the 58. The smaller pack is plenty big enough, and it will start forcing you to make choices about what gear to leave at home.
skinewmexico
04-22-2010, 13:35
Takes a pretty refined skill set, and gear. to use a pack like a z-pack on an extended trip. IMO. And I'll second the Gossamer Gear Gorilla. Sold my Exos 46 to buy a ULA Circuit. The skinny hip belt of the Exos just didn't work on a fat guy, as much as I wanted it to. So try before you buy.
only an airy mesh touches my back on my exos. a great solution at 2lbs 3 ozs
chris, my base weight is around 14lbs and i sweat during the summer b/c it's like 90 degrees. i've seen dudes with bad, bad sores on their backs from frameless packs. they weren't bitching about em, but they couldn't have been fun.
i'm not trying to dissuade the OP from frameless, as it works for some guys, but the vast, vast majority of thrus i see are using frames. i'm just sharing my experience
Think I am going to go with the exos until I get all of my light gear and then decide.
However, I am glad that I asked because there are a lot of inserting thoughts pointed out that I never thought about when debating frame vs frameless packs.
depending on your load size, I would get either the ULA Circuit or the ULA Catalyst. They're around the same price range as that exos, (the circuit is cheaper) and they are a great pack company.
then, once you get your gear dialed in, you could probably switch over to an ULA OHM, or maybe even a ULA CDT.
ULA website can be found here. http://www.ula-equipment.com/
ChrisFol
04-22-2010, 21:17
only an airy mesh touches my back on my exos. a great solution at 2lbs 3 ozs
chris, my base weight is around 14lbs and i sweat during the summer b/c it's like 90 degrees. i've seen dudes with bad, bad sores on their backs from frameless packs. they weren't bitching about em, but they couldn't have been fun.
i'm not trying to dissuade the OP from frameless, as it works for some guys, but the vast, vast majority of thrus i see are using frames. i'm just sharing my experience
Wags, I agree completely. Most people I see on thru-hikes use an internal framed pack, but then again, most people that I see thru-hiking are hauling 40lb+. So carrying anything under 30lbs on a thru-hike and most people consider you ultra-light.
So like mentioned above, people with frameless packs, who have sore backs are probably over-loading them. Most UL, frameless packs are designed for sub 25lb skin out weights.
FWIW I use a short CCF pad for a make-shift frame in my pack and that makes a huge difference.
FamilyGuy
04-23-2010, 13:17
Wags, I agree completely. Most people I see on thru-hikes use an internal framed pack, but then again, most people that I see thru-hiking are hauling 40lb+. So carrying anything under 30lbs on a thru-hike and most people consider you ultra-light.
So like mentioned above, people with frameless packs, who have sore backs are probably over-loading them. Most UL, frameless packs are designed for sub 25lb skin out weights.
FWIW I use a short CCF pad for a make-shift frame in my pack and that makes a huge difference.
25 lbs designed for frameless packs is grossly overstated. Any frameless pack is not going to be comparatively comfortable to any internal pack at that weight. Doable yes....but why? To save a pound?
25 lbs designed for frameless packs is grossly overstated. Any frameless pack is not going to be comparatively comfortable to any internal pack at that weight. Doable yes....but why? To save a pound?
Wags, I agree completely. Most people I see on thru-hikes use an internal framed pack, but then again, most people that I see thru-hiking are hauling 40lb+. So carrying anything under 30lbs on a thru-hike and most people consider you ultra-light.
So like mentioned above, people with frameless packs, who have sore backs are probably over-loading them. Most UL, frameless packs are designed for sub 25lb skin out weights.
FWIW I use a short CCF pad for a make-shift frame in my pack and that makes a huge difference.
25 lbs designed for frameless packs is grossly overstated. Any frameless pack is not going to be comparatively comfortable to any internal pack at that weight. Doable yes....but why? To save a pound?
he mentioned skin out weights. plus for most people with frameless packs, that 25 is rare and does not occur often. plus, it doesn't last long. my pack will start out close to 25 and be down to <15 after a 5 day trek. YMMV. Comfort wise, the best pack i've ever had is my conduit (CDT now) and it's frameless.
FamilyGuy
04-23-2010, 15:42
he mentioned skin out weights. plus for most people with frameless packs, that 25 is rare and does not occur often. plus, it doesn't last long. my pack will start out close to 25 and be down to <15 after a 5 day trek. YMMV. Comfort wise, the best pack i've ever had is my conduit (CDT now) and it's frameless.
So you are agreeing with me. Frameless packs are not as comfortable as internal framed packs at 25lbs.
no i'm not. i guess you missed it. the Best pack i've Ever had, including comfort, is my conduit, which is frameless. although i rarely carry 25 or more, i have carried between 25 and 30 in it twice so far, and i like it more than my previous two framed packs i used to have where i carried the same weight. of course, i haven't tried Every framed or frameless pack, so i guess my opinion is just like yours, an opinion.
FamilyGuy
04-23-2010, 19:52
I have the Conduit and Relay and while these are great packs, they do best with under 20 pounds, like any frameless ruck. I have no idea what framed packs you used previously at higher weights, but I also owned a Circuit and the carrying difference at anything over 15lbs is noticeable - the Circuit is vastly more comfortable.
As far as an opinion, there are some specific physics to load transfer and stability that are fact and not opinion. My opinion is only that given two identical packs except where one is frameless and one has a frame, the later will be more comfortable at any load.
Here is one opinion: given that there are packs within a scant few ounces of the Conduit with internal frames (i.e. Gossamer Gear Gorilla), why buy a Conduit for loads in the mid-twenties?
just reread my last post, man i can be a dick sometimes, sorry about that.
not trying to roust up an argument. although i do have a tendency to do so sometimes. i didn't buy my conduit for weights in the mid-twenties, but it carries it exceptionally well, IMHO. If I ever plan to pack 25+ regularly (for example desert where water is an issue) then i'll probably look into a circuit. I recommended the circuit to the OP in post 15.
Always trying to balance weight and comfort, with backpacks I choose to go with comfort.
I could have a quicker/easier cooking system but in the end for the few extra minutes the weight saving is worth for me. On the other hand walking for 6-10 hours with an uncomfortable pack to save one pound is not for me.
Having tried a few frame-less packs, I can tolerate walking the 2 miles from the fruit and veggie market to home with 25 lbs inside the Amp, but about 16-18 is the limit (for me...) in the bush.
One of the packs that some report comfortable at 35 lbs, frankly feels like (to me) a bag of potatoes with two strings knotted at the corners at 25 lbs ...
One mate that used to rave about it , quickly changed to framed Osprey once he tried that for a longish trip. He hasn't switched back.
Franco
FamilyGuy
04-23-2010, 21:49
just reread my last post, man i can be a dick sometimes, sorry about that.
not trying to roust up an argument. although i do have a tendency to do so sometimes. i didn't buy my conduit for weights in the mid-twenties, but it carries it exceptionally well, IMHO. If I ever plan to pack 25+ regularly (for example desert where water is an issue) then i'll probably look into a circuit. I recommended the circuit to the OP in post 15.
Nah- you aren't a dick at all. We were just discussing. For me, under 20lbs or so, I do use the Conduit. I think ultimately we are saying similar things.
Cheers.
ChrisFol
04-23-2010, 22:06
25 lbs designed for frameless packs is grossly overstated. Any frameless pack is not going to be comparatively comfortable to any internal pack at that weight. Doable yes....but why? To save a pound?
As JRHiker stated, I am refering to a full skin out weight of 25lbs.
In my case, my base-weight is 8.7lbs+plus 2L of water brings me to 10.9lbs. That leaves me with 14.1lbs worth of food (enough for 9 or 10 days) before I get to 25lbs. So as you can see, if you are an UL backpacker, reaching 25lbs is very rare, since you will never really need to carry 10 days worth of food in most places.
FWIW, I use a G4 and have carried upto 28lbs in it without any problem. YMMV of course.
As for saving a pound, I would glady take one less pound out of my pack for minimal cost and comfort sacrafice. Just like I would glady switch to lighter footwear and lighter poles for the same reasons.
FamilyGuy
04-23-2010, 22:15
As for saving a pound, I would glady take one less pound out of my pack for minimal cost and comfort sacrafice. Just like I would glady switch to lighter footwear and lighter poles for the same reasons.
Works both ways - adding a pound for a measurable increase in comfort.
You could always lose a pound of bodyweight to make up the difference.
skinewmexico
04-24-2010, 13:33
Think I am going to go with the exos until I get all of my light gear and then decide.
Like I said, try before you buy. I moved the same 25# load from my Exos 46, to a GG Mariposa, to a Golite Jam2, to a ULA Conduit, and the Exos was by far the most painful. For me, the other two were un-noticeable. The Exos was awful. But that is just for me.
I tried on the exos at rei and loaded up with some weight and walked around. Couldn't tell much about it though; hard to compare wearing a pack in a store as opposed to actually backpacking.
I could always just return it to rei if I don't like it though.
I tried on the exos at rei and loaded up with some weight and walked around. Couldn't tell much about it though; hard to compare wearing a pack in a store as opposed to actually backpacking.
I could always just return it to rei if I don't like it though.