View Full Version : Educate me please...
Tuckahoe
04-20-2010, 22:37
Here lately I have been replacing my cooking set to reduce weight. It meant retiring my beloved Svea and now replacing my 12 ounce cook pot with something lighter.
And for me that is the rub. There are a lot of choices and options, but when it comes to all the titanium pots I just cant seem justify the price to myself. Yes, I understand that titanium costs about $9-13 a pound and manufacturing costs etc. And I certainly appreciate good quality tools. But in the back of my mind I always here a voice saying "but its just a cook pot, it shouldnt be $60."
I did settle on a Imusa mug.
But in the back of my mind I always here a voice saying "but its just a cook pot, it shouldnt be $60."
My thoughts exactly.
When I use a cooking pot, I use a a 2qt, $4 thrift-store special. Took off the handle and use tin foil for a lid. The weight? not quite 4.5 oz. (I like the larger size). I used an identical pot on the LT, PCT, CT and the CDT. I received my money's worth. :)
(I go cookless now on longer trips)
For $60, I better be making something a bit better than Ramen...or any freeze dried meals! :D
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 22:43
Here lately I have been replacing my cooking set to reduce weight. It meant retiring my beloved Svea and now replacing my 12 ounce cook pot with something lighter.
And for me that is the rub. There are a lot of choices and options, but when it comes to all the titanium pots I just cant seem justify the price to myself. Yes, I understand that titanium costs about $9-13 a pound and manufacturing costs etc. And I certainly appreciate good quality tools. But in the back of my mind I always here a voice saying "but its just a cook pot, it shouldnt be $60."
I did settle on a Imusa mug.
I am not really seeing a question here.
You can pay a lot of money for some Ti pots, but I believe that $40 for the Trek 700 or $30 for 600 is a price that most don't think about. Anti-Gravity Gear have great aluminum pots for less than $20 which are as light, if not lighter than most Ti pots on the maret.
Wally World, the dollar store and Walmart all have cheap, light pots that are more than fine to use.
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 22:48
Only those who must have the newest gear out there will pay crazy prices on such a simple piece of gear.
I use the SP 600, weighs 2.8oz, boils two cups of water, cost me $30, which all things considered is fairly inexpensive.
Slo-go'en
04-20-2010, 22:58
Yea, spending 60 bucks on a Ti pot was a bit crazy, but hey, its only money. What I am having trouble with is justifying dropping another 500 bucks or so on a new bag, pack and pad to loose another pound or two off my back! Now we're talking real money.
Tuckahoe
04-20-2010, 23:05
Sorry, I certainly do not mean this to be a titanium bashing thread.
I just dont understand what it is about a titanium pot that brings a retail price of $45 for a 900 ml pot or $50 for a 1.3 lt pot. I guess I am looking for a little insight to better understand the cost.
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 23:18
Sorry, I certainly do not mean this to be a titanium bashing thread.
I just dont understand what it is about a titanium pot that brings a retail price of $45 for a 900 ml pot or $50 for a 1.3 lt pot. I guess I am looking for a little insight to better understand the cost.
There isn't one, IMHO.
I have three Ti pots (Trek 700, 600, and an MSR Ti mug)-- none of them are essestially worth their RRP. The higher price tag comes with the higher cost of the raw material (Ti verses Alumin).
NB: It is important to note that bar a few exceptions, aluminium pots tend to be far heavier than their Ti counterparts. AGG and your Imunsa mug are two of those exceptions and thus people pay a premium to knock off a few ounces.
The qualities of "light" and "cheap" generally do not exist in backpacking.
NB: It is important to note that bar a few exceptions, aluminium pots tend to be far heavier than their Ti counterparts. AGG and your Imunsa mug are two of those exceptions and thus people pay a premium to knock off a few ounces.
The qualities of "light" and "cheap" generally do not exist in backpacking.
Wrong on both accounts.
With the exception of sleeping bags (the only things I think is worth the extra $$$), the dirt bag approach can often be lighter then their Patagucci counterparts. A "real" backpack from REI vs an $80 frameless ruck? A simple silnylon tarp vs a "real" tent? Trail shoes vs. boots? A Pepsi can stove vs a canister stove? My thrift store pot that had many miles on it before it was retired? (Remember, it is 2 qts..not a measly .6 ltr! ;) )
As for aluminum vs titanium? To paraphrase XKCD.. "Stand back..I'm practicing science!"
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081004113605AAqohdK
You need to look up the densities of the two solid elements to solve the problem.
Ti = 4.51 g/cm^3
Al = 2.70 g/cm^3
With this information the problem becomes straight forward.
100 mL (mL is the same as cm^3) of Al would weigh 270g (100cm^3 x 2.70 g/cm^3)
100 mL of Ti would weigh 451g (100cm^3 x 4.51 g/cm^3)
Thus the 100 mL of Titanium would weigh 181g more than the same volume of Aluminum. Titanium is denser than aluminum.
Titanium is for people who like shiny, overpriced outdoor tochkes.. :D We are just boiling water. ;)
and here's what the ultimate gear wonks have to say:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=13180
I'll stick to my dirt bagging approach. It has me down to 8lbs (+ whatever camera equipment I take. ;) )
white_russian
04-20-2010, 23:38
It is just like anything else with backpacking gear, wait for clearance. It takes a bit longer to find that titanium pot on the clearance rack but everything eventually gets a good sale. I hardly ever buy gear at anything less than 50 percent off msrp and that includes my titanium pot. Sure, you don't get the lightest gear right now, but if you are patient you can put together a kit with premium components very cheaply.
ChrisFol
04-20-2010, 23:51
You don't really need to inform me Mags.
Each piece of gear has its place-- my 0.3oz fancy feast stove is great for solo use, but its 6min boil time and 10min burn time has its drawbacks. So does my 14oz G4 backpack when I need to carry my fly-fishing gear. My 9.8oz SpinnTwinn, well that is pretty much perfect :D
I guess I like the combination of a 69cent cat can stove and $500 Feathered Friend's bag. There is just something odd about that thought, but that is for another topic.
As for Ti verses aluminium, I find most alumium pots to be on the bulky side. Not many are tall and narrow for 3-season use, and thus don't work too well with my dirt-bag cat can stove and take up more space. Wide pots have their place too, as for the Imunza it doesn't have folding handles, which is a negative for myself and its packability.
Feral Bill
04-21-2010, 00:06
. It meant retiring my beloved Svea .
How could you!:mad:
You don't really need to inform me Mags.
The qualities of "light" and "cheap" generally do not exist in backpacking.
If you still think that..then you have to be informed. :sun
Then again, long walks are different from being a gear hobbyist. (Not directing that at anyone in particular. I just noticed the more gear is discussed..the less time is usually spent outdoors)
I just hate to see people think they NEED expensive gear for the simple art of walking. Going minimalist/light need not be expensive.
Tuckahoe
04-21-2010, 00:19
How could you!:mad:
I know, I know it was very painful!! Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?? I still have it and it certainly still gets used. It is my emergency stove here at home as well. But I went and got a Snow Peak stove. There is that small difference of a 3 ounce stove plus fuel versus 18 ounces and fuel.
If you ask an REI employee, you will probably find that their mark up on Ti pots is similar or less than aluminium. The same will go for the importer. It has nothing to do with idiots that just want to pay more for a pot, it is more expensive to manufacture.
Here is the first paragraph from a very extensive article on it from a Bike web site
(and BTW, cyclist are also not necessarily stupid for paying the prices they do for Ti frames and bits...)
"Titanium has truly become the wonder metal for the bike industry. You wouldn't know it but, titanium is the fourth most abundant metal, after aluminum, iron, and magnesium. Its high cost of production and the complexity of the production process has historically placed some limits on the application of titanium. Titanium is a silver-grey colored metal that is 60 % heavier than aluminum"
http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/titan.html (http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/titan.html)
Franco
Mags, your simple density comparison of Al and Ti (usually both are alloys, but whatever) does not really tell the tale. The point of Ti is that it is stronger, tougher and more temperature tolerant than aluminum, so the pots can be made thinner than an equivalently strong Al pot. Which ends up lighter is a matter of the trade-offs. For example, the Heinie pot is made of thin Al, originally intended for single use, with contents under pressure. Actually, this is a very high-tech item, using a precisely engineered alloy which can be deep drawn in a single operation, ending up with a hard aluminum shell which is not too brittle to survive the trip to market. It turns out that it is pretty good for a trail pot too, but somewhat fragile. No commercial product would be made that thin. However, a Ti pot can be made quite thin, and remain tough and hard enough to be durable. However, the process is not as cheap as that used for the Heinie pot. So, which is superior? The extremely cheap and somewhat fragile, recycled Heiniken can, the expensive, durable, extreme engineered Ti pot, or one of the not so hi-tech Ti or Al pots that weigh more but are cheaper? Your choice.
Maybe the ideal for ul would be a Ti pot like a Heinie pot. That would be lighter than almost all other pots (except an Al Heinie), but still quite strong. Not so strong that it wouldn't dent, maybe, but strong enough to survive a long trip. It would still cost a lot, because it would be difficult to make.
Another factor in the weight equation is geometry. A pot as wide as it is high is most efficient in the weight of the pot vs, the contents. So, all other things being equal, a tall pot will be heavier than a squarer shape for the same volume.
double d
04-21-2010, 01:46
I personally like my MSR pot, it works really well for me and I bought it (it came with a cooking set) at REI, but hey, if a thrift store pot is your thing, thats cool. As for the expense, again, its what people are willing to pay, then thats free market capitalism.
ChrisFol
04-21-2010, 02:06
The qualities of "light" and "cheap" generally do not exist in backpacking.
If you still think that..then you have to be informed. :sun
Then again, long walks are different from being a gear hobbyist. (Not directing that at anyone in particular. I just noticed the more gear is discussed..the less time is usually spent outdoors)
I just hate to see people think they NEED expensive gear for the simple art of walking. Going minimalist/light need not be expensive.
If only WhiteBlaze permitted people to edit their posts to make corrections and offer better wording; many discrepancies could be avoided-- without a fee.
My point wasn't that you needed to spend big money to get light, in fact most gear lists that are posted I often advocate the cheapest method to drop weight is to simply leave stuff at home.
It just so happens that in the case of Ti verses Aluminum there are very few "cheap" and "light" alternatives if you want a Ti pot-- you can have cheap and light with aluminum but very rarely is ti cheap and light-- that was my point.
Meh, either way we both have about the same base weight-- so we both know that light gear isn't expensive-- unless you read BackPacker Magazine that is :D
Happy Trails.
A fellow can buy many Heini pots for $60 and get some enjoyment out of it too:D
DocHolliday
04-21-2010, 07:47
Thanks for giving an accurate statement GGS2, as opposed to the others on TI's properties.
TI alloy (which actually contains AL) has the best weight to tensile strength ratios of any commercially used metal.
Another key note is that TI is much harder to machine than any other metal, due to it's ideal reactivity point being at a very finite and temperature interval. Thus raising it's cost.
You get what you pay for. If you buy a TI pot, it will never warp, and as long as you counteract the carbon buildup, you'll have something that will last a lifetime.
It's just the difference between what kind of cash you have available, and then if you have a mind for long term investments. =P
Two Speed
04-21-2010, 08:10
Generally speaking, I concur with Mags that aluminum will work, and you can find it cheap.
That said I spent the money for an Evernew 1.3 L titanium pot, and have been getting good service ever since. Not the best "cooking" pot, stuff scorches in a flash if you try to fry or saute things, but overall my "go to" pot.
Really, it amounts to finding the gear that works for you, accommodates your style of cooking and is within your budget for that item. If anyone wants to get a long drawn out argument about what material properties makes the "best" pot . . . eh, might make for a good conversation around a campfire.
I'm reading "Hiking the Appalachian Trail" vol 1 and people hiked the AT in less than 3-4 months during the 40's, 50's and 60's carrying canned food, flashlights, heavy rucksacks and wearing full leather boots.
I had a car that would go 150+ mph a few years ago.. It got 14 mpg on a good day. It cost an arm and a leg and I never drove it near it's potential - but what fun it was to drive. I could have gotten around just as well in a Toyota Prius but the fun factor of driving a Prius is somewhere around negative infinity.
Jester2000
04-21-2010, 09:12
If only WhiteBlaze permitted people to edit their posts to make corrections and offer better wording; many discrepancies could be avoided-- without a fee. . .
They do! Of course, you have to do the editing the same way as when publishing something in print -- beforehand. I suggest that everyone take the time to edit their posts to make corrections and offer better wording. Before hitting "Submit Reply."
double d
04-21-2010, 09:27
The qualities of "light" and "cheap" generally do not exist in backpacking.
If you still think that..then you have to be informed. :sun
Then again, long walks are different from being a gear hobbyist. (Not directing that at anyone in particular. I just noticed the more gear is discussed..the less time is usually spent outdoors)
I just hate to see people think they NEED expensive gear for the simple art of walking. Going minimalist/light need not be expensive.
Mags, you seem to discuss alot of gear questions and you provide interesting feedback, yet you have alot of hiking experience, so maybe your theory isn't effective?
double d
04-21-2010, 09:29
[QUOTE=10-K;1003043]I'm reading "Hiking the Appalachian Trail" vol 1 and people hiked the AT in less than 3-4 months during the 40's, 50's and 60's carrying canned food, flashlights, heavy rucksacks and wearing full leather boots.
True, but they wouldn't do that today:D
garlic08
04-21-2010, 09:41
...And I certainly appreciate good quality tools. But in the back of my mind I always here a voice saying "but its just a cook pot, it shouldnt be $60."...
Amen to that! That kind of thought goes through my head a lot now that I don't have a paycheck. I'm going cycling today with my $100 used Craigs List bike, joining a group whose average bicycle costs $3000. Maybe they'll have a little more fun than me, but not 30 times more fun.
The only pot I'll ever use (I hardly ever use one anymore, prefering cookless) is Walmart greasepot, less than $5 and two ounces as I remember. That's what I'd better use, since my wife's trail name is GreasePot.
It sounds like this thread agrees that lighter can be cheaper if you shop it right, and I'll verify that. My complete three season hiking set-up, good for down to 15 degrees F, cost about $800, including a new Marmot Helium bag (thank you, steepandcheap.com), new Tarptent (full retail), new Gossamer Gear pack, and new down vest. Most of my cost savings consists of not buying things in the first place, like expensive stoves, pots, GPS, satellite beacon, camera, smart phone, coffee press, titanium mug, inflatable mattress, multi-tool, etc.
Like you, I appreciate good quality tools, and I love my high quality bag and shelter, titanium tent stakes (ridiculously expensive but worth it many times over), and some of my clothing. Some expensive stuff is worth it, for sure.
Appalachian Tater
04-21-2010, 10:36
I love my little MSR Titan Kettle--it has several great features such as the volume, the proportions, the indented bottom, the spout, the tight-fitting lid, the fold down handles, its strength and resistance to crushing.
However, the list price has increased from $40 to $60 in the last few years so you are doing well to buy it for under $50. That is simply too expensive. I still recommend it quality wise but would never suggest that someone spend that much money on it unless they really don't need to watch their budget.
bigcranky
04-21-2010, 10:59
You can hike with a cheap aluminum pot.
You can hike with an expensive Titanium pot.
Your choice. If you have the money and you want to buy titanium, go for it. I have both -- a couple of "grease pots" and pretty much the complete set of Snow Peak titanium. I like them all. (Don't ask how many stoves I have....)
lots of gear wonk stuff
At the end of the day, my simple aluminum pot (for large meals) or the simple Greasepot for smaller meals is still lighter it seems than the expensive options.
Mags, you seem to discuss alot of gear questions and you provide interesting feedback, yet you have alot of hiking experience, so maybe your theory isn't effective?
I seldom discuss specific hiking gear. I could not tell you the latest packs, tents, sleeping bags, shelters or water filters. I only discuss the generalities, which don't change. Specifics? I'll leave to the gear hobbyists.
T
You get what you pay for. If you buy a TI pot, it will never warp, and as long as you counteract the carbon buildup, you'll have something that will last a lifetime.
Yeah..when you are boiling water it is very important to have a non-warped pot....Ahem.
This pot below (LT,PCT,CDT,CT) has some trails on it s on it before I accidentally threw it away when I was cleaning out some stuff. Sad day.. Probably more miles than the Ti pot gear collectors who talk a bout their gear lasting a lifetime... Perhaps if I paid 15x more for the pot below I'd have done the trails 15x each? :D
http://www.magnanti.com/t2/aaa.JPG
I am not trying to say my pot is better...jsut that the it seems silly to pay money for an overpriced toctcke for well, boiling Ramen noodles. Warped pot? Co=efficiencies? Carbon buildup? Perfect diameter? To quote another thread..what are we, a bunch of pantywaists? :D
Backpacking is supposed to be about simplicity..not paying $60 to boil water.
Of course, I don't use a pot now for solo trips. But that's another thread. :)
ChrisFol
04-21-2010, 23:28
Mags,
I completely understand your point, but just seeing a pictures of your old pot reminds me of why I am glad to spend the $30 for my Snow Peak 600-- the size and packability. I don't need all that pot, taking up all that space just to boil two cups of water. Let alone the amount of tin-foil to make up the lid or the bigger windscreen to protect it.
Like I said previously, all things have a place and different people have different properties that they look for when buying gear.
Mags,
I don't need all that pot, taking up all that space just to boil two cups of water
When you hike 25-30 MPD for 4 mos..things change. :sun I eat. A lot.
But, if you have small appetite, you can get a 1 qt grease pot for the same size of your 600 ml pot..and for $5. ;)
But, as I said
Of course, I don't use a pot now for solo trips. But that's another thread. :)
Anyway..why are you trying to convince me? I am the cranky guy on the Internet who already knows what works for him. I don't expect to change anyone's mind..but I AM having fun twisty everyone's pantywaists in a bunch... :D
Mags, you are a cruel and distorted mind. Of course any thing that holds water and doesn't burn, much, will serve the purpose. If that is what this thread is about, why do you keep reappearing? Go away and hike another score or more of miles. :)
ChrisFol
04-22-2010, 02:01
When you hike 25-30 MPD for 4 mos..things change. :sun I eat. A lot.
But, if you have small appetite, you can get a 1 qt grease pot for the same size of your 600 ml pot..and for $5. ;)
But, as I said
Of course, I don't use a pot now for solo trips. But that's another thread. :)
Anyway..why are you trying to convince me? I am the cranky guy on the Internet who already knows what works for him. I don't expect to change anyone's mind..but I AM having fun twisty everyone's pantywaists in a bunch... :D
I am not trying to convince you of anything; simply offering my opinion on a public forum, but you have obviously missed my point. A $5 one quart greese pot does not have the same dimiensions as my tall and narrow SP 600. Case in point-- AGG's line of pots. They are light, cheap and have the same capacity, but their size is much bigger and bulkier.
FWIW, hiking 25-30 MPD on the CT or CDT didn't change my appetite-- I still did no-cook breakfast and lunch and a warm meal for dinner. I still only needed two cups of water boiled per day. Three if I wanted a special treat.
As I have said, different things work for different people. Everything item has a trade-off. I am glad we have both found what works for us and I hope that this discussion sheds some light for the OP.
Two Speed
04-22-2010, 07:29
. . . This pot below (LT,PCT,CDT,CT) has some trails on it s on it before I accidentally threw it away when I was cleaning out some stuff. Sad day . . . Given the memories attached to that pot it had to blow chunks when you realized you'd tossed it. Gear like that deserves an honored place on a shelf somewhere.
Tuckahoe
04-22-2010, 16:32
Thanks guys. My goal here was to gain a better understanding of how the cost of a titanium pot was arrived at. I know so little about the use of titanium and the manufacturing processes to have an educated understanding. Especially how that would apply to a cooking pot, and what benefit would be achieved. On the otherhand yes, I could understand the expense in lets say something like an external pack frame.
whoa tuck, not sure you want to start discussing external packs... that might send this thread in another direction and start up a whole new fight.:mad:
i myself prefer the walmart grease pot made by IMUSA, hard to find nowadays but it's perfect for me, so perfect i have both the mug (10 cm) and the pot (small grease dispenser), one for solo, both for when it's me and my wife.
earlyriser26
04-22-2010, 19:02
Thanks guys. My goal here was to gain a better understanding of how the cost of a titanium pot was arrived at. I know so little about the use of titanium and the manufacturing processes to have an educated understanding. Especially how that would apply to a cooking pot, and what benefit would be achieved. On the otherhand yes, I could understand the expense in lets say something like an external pack frame.
Really the difference is the strength to weight ratio. If cost is no object go for the TI. My $5 AL pot (dents and all) works just fine. The most important factor for me is finding a pot with a fold out handle.
Appalachian Tater
04-22-2010, 19:27
Part of the difference in cost is probably attributable to greater difficulty in manufacturing the items compared to aluminum along with the smaller number of manufacturers. Most of the titanium cookware for hikers seems to be made in Thailand. The dollar has also weakened over the past few years and that may also play a part in the increased costs.
There is more competition now in Ti manufacturing. A lot of the pots we see discussed in the L/W forums are made by Shanghai Kingsound Titanium, sold directly under the Tibetan label as well as by several other brands.
If the question is : is a TI pot good value compared to aluminium ? for most the answer is no, it isn't.Particularly so for "cooking" rather then boiling.
So why do I use Ti pots ? Well, because I can...
I dislike dents in pots and only boil, never cook. Till two years ago I had a very good job, don't have children, smoke ,drink or chase women (and they don't chase me either).
As a comparison I could buy a Ti pot every week with the money that my wife spends on smokes, but I don't really need 52 pots.
As I don't drive I find ridiculous that people get into debt buying 50-100k cars. Yet I refrain from telling them that they are stupid for doing so. They get pleasure out of that, I like playing with expensive but comparatively cheap (against most other hobbies) backpacking gear...
Franco
whoa tuck, not sure you want to start discussing external packs... that might send this thread in another direction and start up a whole new fight.:mad:
You guys are way too thin skinned. Back East, we called it "busting balls". If you want even keeled discourse with no colorful opinions..listen to NPR at 8am. (Which I do.. ;) )
(Listening to Car Talk now FWIW... Of course, they are two sarcastic Eye-talian guys from Boston, who bust balls and don't take themsleves seriously. Most of you probably hate them. :D)
Bitch of the day: 6 days of rain in Colorado. With this miserable, cold weather..I do feel like I am back East. ;)
bigcranky
04-24-2010, 13:50
(Listening to Car Talk now FWIW... Of course, they are two sarcastic Eye-talian guys from Boston, who bust balls and don't take themsleves seriously. Most of you probably hate them. :D)
Bitch of the day: 6 days of rain in Colorado. With this miserable, cold weather..I do feel like I am back East. ;)
Love Click and Clack. Of course, I am a sarcastic Italian guy originally from New Joisey.
We've had wonderful weather the last couple of weeks. Clear, sunny, cool at night and warm during the day. No complaints.
no, that was meant as a joke, i was saying some others might start up some sort of argument. thin skinned, no, not this guy. 8 years in the navy, just spent the last 5 being on a ship, i think i can take my share of ball busting.
The only advantage I can see of using titanium cookware is that, besides being light, it does not react with salts and acids. That means that it will last nearly forever and won't pit like bare aluminum, which is more difficult to clean and dents easily. Aluminum is better for cooking, though, in that it disperses heat more evenly over its surface, minimizing burning - but food sticks to it like glue - unless it's greased or coated with a non-stick substance which might, in the future, be linked to some health problems much like aluminum was (falsely) to alzheimer's disease.