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bigben
04-21-2010, 10:04
I know the unwritten rules. But, what is the most Whiteblaze readership-approved course of action if, for example, I walk in a little late to a full shelter in the Smokies that I have an official, numbered, through the park's reservation system, shelter reservation for? I am not an a-hole and don't want to ever come across as being one, but I'm a section hiker who did things the right way, got on the phone at the right time and played by GSMNP's rules. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to the shelter spots I reserved.

Basically, what I'm asking is how to potentially kick someone out of my spot without being a dick?

Be frank with your answers; I'm a big boy and can take it.

Ben

Dobie Swift
04-21-2010, 10:05
Set up your tent and sleep in it.

sbhikes
04-21-2010, 10:06
I swear, if I ever hike the AT, I'm not going to stay in shelters. The whole shelter system sounds like the worst thing about the whole trail. You might as well just backpack through Europe and sleep in bus stations and hostels.

10-K
04-21-2010, 10:08
I know the unwritten rules. But, what is the most Whiteblaze readership-approved course of action if, for example, I walk in a little late to a full shelter in the Smokies that I have an official, numbered, through the park's reservation system, shelter reservation for? I am not an a-hole and don't want to ever come across as being one, but I'm a section hiker who did things the right way, got on the phone at the right time and played by GSMNP's rules. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to the shelter spots I reserved.

Basically, what I'm asking is how to potentially kick someone out of my spot without being a dick?

Be frank with your answers; I'm a big boy and can take it.

Ben

Consider it a blessing and an ideal situation - pitch your tent and be happy you have an opportunity to avoid sleeping in the shelter.

garlic08
04-21-2010, 10:11
Consider it a blessing and an ideal situation - pitch your tent and be happy you have an opportunity to avoid sleeping in the shelter.

Ditto this. I hiked very late each day in the Smokies for the very reason of arriving at a full shelter to avoid sleeping it.

sidebackside
04-21-2010, 10:14
Consider it a blessing and an ideal situation - pitch your tent and be happy you have an opportunity to avoid sleeping in the shelter.

I hear what your saying 10-K but what if he doesn't have a tent b/c he is section hiking only through the Smokies and has made reservations to stay in only shelters? I know someone will say something like,"he's a fool for not bringing a tent in the first place." But speaking hypothetically, let's say one doesn't have a tent...what's the best way to approach this dreaded conversation??? Politely ask if everyone has a reservation?

10-K
04-21-2010, 10:19
I hear what your saying 10-K but what if he doesn't have a tent b/c he is section hiking only through the Smokies and has made reservations to stay in only shelters? I know someone will say something like,"he's a fool for not bringing a tent in the first place." But speaking hypothetically, let's say one doesn't have a tent...what's the best way to approach this dreaded conversation??? Politely ask if everyone has a reservation?

Ask someone to borrow their tent... :)

Seriously though, not carrying some type of shelter on an overnight backpacking trip raises other questions that are perhaps more important.

Like, what am I going to do if I don't make it to a shelter at all?

grizzlyadam
04-21-2010, 10:20
"Section hikers must stay in shelters and must make reservations. Four spaces are set aside at each shelter for thru-hikers. When those spaces are taken, additional thru-hikers may tent in the vicinity of the shelter. All hikers must use the bear cables to secure their food."

HikerMom58
04-21-2010, 10:26
What about bears in the Smokies? I've read that some shelters through there have sliding gates to be used at night to keep the bears out of the shelters. I read that one night all the ones "tenting" had to get in the shelter b/c of a bear trying to get their hanging food.

If you don't carry a tent and plan on staying in the shelters you should be able too, if you've planned ahead, but I think that's only happens in a "perfect world". *Sigh*

10-K
04-21-2010, 10:37
If you don't carry a tent and plan on staying in the shelters you should be able too, if you've planned ahead, but I think that's only happens in a "perfect world". *Sigh*

It's not always due to something you can control. Weather conditions can cause quite a bit of disruption in the shelter reservation system. In bad weather, it might be *you* that is in the wrong place come dark.

Like you say, in a perfect world.

Point Man Chef
04-21-2010, 10:43
So am I reading that if I am section hiking I am required to stay in a shelter. I'm new to the AT but I haven't seen anything on this. I'm asking based on Grizzly Adam's post. My son and I were just planing on either shelter or tent depending on where we were etc.

papa john
04-21-2010, 10:44
I swear, if I ever hike the AT, I'm not going to stay in shelters. The whole shelter system sounds like the worst thing about the whole trail. You might as well just backpack through Europe and sleep in bus stations and hostels.

This shelter reservation system only applies to the Smokies.

Appalachian Tater
04-21-2010, 10:48
Or you could injure yourself and not be able to move quickly enough to get to a shelter. Bluntly, not carrying some kind of a shelter is pretty stupid.

In the situation the OP is asking about I would be very glad to be able to tent. If I were really truly wanting to stay in the shelter and had a reservation I would just say in a nice way that I was sorry to show up so late but could people please scoot over and squeeze me in since I have a reservation and am required to stay in the shelter and stand there smiling until people made room or someone said, "oh, sorry, thought the shelter was empty, I'll tent" and left the shelter. It might make for an awkward moment in bad weather but whatever. I have seen three guys spread out in a ten person shelter move very s-l-o-w-l-y when asked to make room for a few others, well before dusk.

You can safely assume that some or most of the people in a shelter in the Smokies don't understand the rules.

Point Man Chef
04-21-2010, 10:58
Gotcha Papa John. Thanks!

scope
04-21-2010, 11:00
I hear what your saying 10-K but what if he doesn't have a tent b/c he is section hiking only through the Smokies and has made reservations to stay in only shelters? I know someone will say something like,"he's a fool for not bringing a tent in the first place." But speaking hypothetically, let's say one doesn't have a tent...what's the best way to approach this dreaded conversation??? Politely ask if everyone has a reservation?

First thing you do is realize if you are upset - if you are, then you will come across this way almost no matter how nice you try to be. Just stay factual - you have a reservation, repeat the rules and allow folks in the shelter to make the right choice. Chances are good they will. Folks might know the rules but don't know if late hikers have reservations or even if they would rather be in the shelter or not if they don't say anything. Based on some of the posts here, I might think I'm doing a late hiker a favor by occupying space in a shelter without reservation. I don't guess the rangers care who is outside the shelter as long as its full?

bigben
04-21-2010, 11:07
I will, do, and always have carried a shelter with me. Not stupid, and never unprepared. I ask because 1) while not the peak time, I'll be down there at a relatively busy time(5/4-7) and 2) because of "the rules" I'm strongly considering leaving the tent at home and just carying a tarp(saves 3lbs) but I really don't like sleeping under tarps if I can help it. Frankly, I don't see this being a problem being as there's 3 of us going and I have 3 reservations at each of the 3 GSMNP shelters we plan to stay at and one of us, a hammock hanger, plans to just wait until the shelter fills up and hammock camp, thus leaving an empty spot.

I generally tent camp at the shelter areas while on the AT unless I roll into the shelter in a downpour. I'm just trying to get a consensus of "the most right" way to deal with this potential situation, and definitely not trying to stir the pot here.

papa john
04-21-2010, 11:09
Only those hikers whose permit says "Thru Hiker" are allowed to camp outside a shelter. Everyone else is required to sleep inside the shelter. Everyone is required to have a permit although I have hiked with those who didn't and ran the risk of being fined or tossed out of the park. The rules are the rules. Enforcement is altogether something else. I've ever been asked for my permit by anyone although I have yet to see a ranger in the back country. Seen a few ridge runners but no rangers.

10-K
04-21-2010, 11:11
I generally tent camp at the shelter areas while on the AT unless I roll into the shelter in a downpour. I'm just trying to get a consensus of "the most right" way to deal with this potential situation, and definitely not trying to stir the pot here.

Well, there is no "right" way. There's just how it is when you get there and how you decide to deal with it. What might be "right" at one shelter may be "wrong" at the next one.

Bottom line: Carry some type of shelter and be prepared to use it - because for some reason completely out of your control you may need it - which makes everything else moot.

sidebackside
04-21-2010, 11:19
I'm just trying to get a consensus of "the most right" way to deal with this potential situation, and definitely not trying to stir the pot here.

I don't think your stirring the pot. It's a good question.



...I'm strongly considering leaving the tent at home...


I often don't carry a tent with my when I hike in the Smokies because of the shelters. According some of the other posts that's not a good idea. I say this generally speaking, if you have a reservation for a shelter normally there are no problems with getting your spot. In fact, i wouldn't say all, but alot of people that hike in the Smokies don't carry a tent/tarp because of the shelters.

jesse
04-21-2010, 11:22
Consider it a blessing and an ideal situation - pitch your tent and be happy you have an opportunity to avoid sleeping in the shelter.

Yes. I also "ditto".

jesse
04-21-2010, 11:25
I don't think your stirring the pot. It's a good question.




I often don't carry a tent with my when I hike in the Smokies because of the shelters. According some of the other posts that's not a good idea. I say this generally speaking, if you have a reservation for a shelter normally there are no problems with getting your spot. In fact, i wouldn't say all, but alot of people that hike in the Smokies don't carry a tent/tarp because of the shelters.

Should always carry a shelter.

ShelterLeopard
04-21-2010, 11:45
The shelters in the Smokies were not that bad (just had to say it).

Back to the original question: (and this is as a current thru hiker) since I was in the Smokies when there were barely any other people there, there was always plenty of space in the shelters. But if they had been crammed, and someone had come up and made me move, I would have been a little annoyed/frustrated, no way around it. But that's how it is. I would have had to move out of the shelter and tent. Just be as nice as you can when you say that you've got a shelter spot reserved. And don't take it personally when people are irritated. (They're irrated at the system, but may seem irritated at you)

Moral of the story, make 'em move, but do it nicely.

Lone Wolf
04-21-2010, 11:53
I walk in a little late to a full shelter in the Smokies that I have an official, numbered, through the park's reservation system, shelter reservation for? I am not an a-hole and don't want to ever come across as being one, but I'm a section hiker who did things the right way, got on the phone at the right time and played by GSMNP's rules. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to the shelter spots I reserved.

Basically, what I'm asking is how to potentially kick someone out of my spot without being a dick?


thru-hikers know beforehand that folks with reservations may show up at any time. they have priority in shelters. just ask nicely for someone to move because legally they're allowed to tent and you're not

Tin Man
04-21-2010, 11:59
thru-hikers know beforehand that folks with reservations may show up at any time. they have priority in shelters. just ask nicely for someone to move because legally they're allowed to tent and you're not

warning, warning: someone has hi-jacked lone wolf's account :D

while the post is quite correct, ask softy so they can't hear, then set up your tent. dirty wooden boxes should be left for the mice. :)

Teeah3612
04-21-2010, 12:14
Does this section hiker in shelters rule apply to the Shenandoah National Park? I am planning a section hike from Harper's Ferry south and had planned to tent camp. Will this be a problem?

Lilred
04-21-2010, 12:30
Does this section hiker in shelters rule apply to the Shenandoah National Park? I am planning a section hike from Harper's Ferry south and had planned to tent camp. Will this be a problem?

No, it only applies to the Smokies. You still need a permit to hike in the Shennies, which is free and self-serve kiosk, but there is no reservation system in the Shennies.

sidebackside
04-21-2010, 12:31
Should always carry a shelter.

Or just sleep in one.:) Just kiddin...but seriously, you're right.

max patch
04-21-2010, 12:48
Does this section hiker in shelters rule apply to the Shenandoah National Park? I am planning a section hike from Harper's Ferry south and had planned to tent camp. Will this be a problem?

NO, SNP is different than GSMNP. However, SNP also has a bunch of rules for tenters that you need to get a copy of and follow, such as can't camp x number of feet from water, can't camp x number of feet from park boundry, can't camp x number of feet from a paved road, can't camp within x number of feet from a shelter, etc etc etc. The GSMNP is the worst section of the trail. The SNP is the second worst. Yuck.

ChinMusic
04-21-2010, 12:59
...if, for example, I walk in a little late to a full shelter in the Smokies that I have an official, numbered, through the park's reservation system, shelter reservation for?

I have posted this before. If I have a reservation and arrive late to see that the shelter is full and everyone is asleep, I'm setting up my tent out of respect for them. I will explain my decision to a ranger, if questioned, and take my chances.

But, that's just me.

Tin Man
04-21-2010, 13:05
NO, SNP is different than GSMNP. However, SNP also has a bunch of rules for tenters that you need to get a copy of and follow, such as can't camp x number of feet from water, can't camp x number of feet from park boundry, can't camp x number of feet from a paved road, can't camp within x number of feet from a shelter, etc etc etc. The GSMNP is the worst section of the trail. The SNP is the second worst. Yuck.

Lots of rules up north too. Similar rules in the whites. Baxter has a lot of rules. No wood fires in CT or NJ and areas in VT. Rules everywhere these days. Just need to know how to flex the rules like Chin Music posts. I doubt the law will be looking for rule breakers when the sun is going down and they got to hike out to enjoy a home cooked meal and a roof over their heads.

Bear Cables
04-21-2010, 13:12
So am I reading that if I am section hiking I am required to stay in a shelter. I'm new to the AT but I haven't seen anything on this. I'm asking based on Grizzly Adam's post. My son and I were just planing on either shelter or tent depending on where we were etc.

Only is certain parts of the AT such as the Smokies. Your trail guides will tell you where camping off trail is allowed and when reservations for shelters are needed.

TheCheek
04-21-2010, 14:20
GSMNP seriously needs to reconsider the complexity of these rules and the unrealistic expectations that they are universally understood and will be followed by all.

"Shelter spots are first come first served for all park visitors. Using tents or tarps is only allowed when the primary shelter at the site is full." Simple and intuitive = most likely to be followed.

TheCheek
04-21-2010, 14:23
fwiw i agree with the others, I would count it a blessing to arrive at a full shelter especially in the smokies. I would not bank on people understanding the rules and be willing to see your point of view that you have it reserved. I would expect that if you arrive when the shelter is full, you will be tarping. That's just the reality. There would be no uproar if you confronted folks in the shelter about your reservation, but I'm sure you'd find people willing to tent if you brought it up and explained the rules.

The_Saint
04-21-2010, 14:38
I swear, if I ever hike the AT, I'm not going to stay in shelters. The whole shelter system sounds like the worst thing about the whole trail. You might as well just backpack through Europe and sleep in bus stations and hostels.

False.

I hung my hammock at the shelters and had a great time there. I didn't sleep in them because of snorers, people getting up at night and worst of all, BUGS.

Tin Man
04-21-2010, 14:46
If the shelters were removed, the local ATC chapters would probably turn the sites into designated camp areas and strongly encourage or 'require' folks to camp there. I, for one, would support tearing down the dirty wooden boxes in favor of this type of system.

Lyle
04-21-2010, 14:50
Personally, in the OP's original situation, I would just tent and be thankful for the excuse. If I didn't feel like taking the risk of an unreasonable ranger coming by and making an issue. I would do as others suggested.

1) make sure you are not annoyed at the situation
2) Point out that you are not asking to see everyone's permits. This will avoid annoying the majority of the others.
3) State that you are section hiking, and as a result are required by regulation to sleep in the shelter for which you have a reservation. Could also remind folks, in a general way, that thru-hikers can legally tent out when the shelter is full.
4) State that you wish to do things according to the regulations and thus avoid any possibility of a fine.

At this point, hopefully, someone without a reservation or with a thru-hiker reservation, will volunteer to move out and make room for you. If not, I would argue that you have done everything reasonable in your power to abide by the regulations and I would go ahead and set up my camp.

If a ranger wanted to ticket you after you explained your actions, then he/she would be displaying a most unreasonable attitude. I doubt that they would do that. Just rely on the ranger's sense of justice and fair play at that point and you should be fine.

ChinMusic
04-21-2010, 15:05
If a ranger wanted to ticket you after you explained your actions, then he/she would be displaying a most unreasonable attitude. I doubt that they would do that. Just rely on the ranger's sense of justice and fair play at that point and you should be fine.
I don't think they would fine you either, but you never know.

The only thing I disagree with you is that I'm not going to wake up the group at all. If they are asleep, I'm letting them alone.

Appalachian Tater
04-21-2010, 15:18
The only thing I disagree with you is that I'm not going to wake up the group at all. If they are asleep, I'm letting them alone.Excellent point. That would be VERY rude.

Mags
04-21-2010, 22:45
If you don't stick exclusively to the AT, you have more options.

If you are off the AT in the Smokies, you will find many campsites with NO shelter and you will have to tent (the BMT through the GMSMNP for example).

Something to consider anyway if you aren't intent on strictly hiking the AT.

Graywolf
04-21-2010, 23:11
FWIW, If everyone is a sleep, dont bother asking anyone to move..Just put a Bigfoot costume on, then you would have all the space you need..:D

Seriously though, Thur-hikers know the rules...I for one would be happy to give up a space if a section hiker came in..That would get me out of doors..But then again, it could be rude to wake up everyone, just because you have a piece of paper..Its like the OP of the thread, "Another Shelter Ettiquete"..

As another poster said, Thru- hikers can camp, section hikers use the shelters."

Its all in perspective..

Graywolf

Lyle
04-21-2010, 23:28
I agree, I would not wake folks up to discuss the situation.

The OP stated he got in "a little late" I did not take that to mean so late that most folks are asleep.

bigben
04-22-2010, 00:15
Thanks for the advice. To be clear, barring injury, 6pm is about the latest I ever see myself rolling into camp or a shelter. I wouldn't wake people up, that's just mean. I'll just politely explain the situation and rules and how they affect me and see what happens and hope no one gets crappy about it. The rub is, I can't knowingly break the law. If I was to get a ticket or fine, I have to write a letter to my fire chief explaining what happened and then have to live with the ramifications. Even speeding tickets. Sux, but that's one of the trade offs for making damn good money working 10 days a month. And being as I did make the reservations, my window of opportunity for "playing dumb" is gone. And there's only 2 shelters I'm even semi-concerned about(Mollies Ridge and Silers Bald). Spence Field shelter is at the end of a very short day where we'll probably be the first people at the shelter. I just don't want to look like a "shelter bully."

FWIW, I think the whole "Smokies reservations" thing kind of blows. I agree, it should be 1st come 1st serve period. I don't even like having to ask questions like this or having to be prepared to deal with BS confrontations concerning it. Not while hiking on the AT, I have to do enough of that at home.

Bigben

daddytwosticks
04-22-2010, 07:32
Bigben...you sound like a sensible, level-headed guy. Good luck on your section hike and have fun. :)

max patch
04-22-2010, 07:41
FWIW, I think the whole "Smokies reservations" thing kind of blows. I agree, it should be 1st come 1st serve period. I don't even like having to ask questions like this or having to be prepared to deal with BS confrontations concerning it. Not while hiking on the AT, I have to do enough of that at home.


Keep in mind that the reason they require reservations is to minimize the number of people using the park.

I hate the rules too; my solution is to not hike the AT in the smokies.

Appalachian Tater
04-22-2010, 19:51
bigben, if you have a reservation and the shelter is full and you are camping in the designated area it is very doubtful you would get a ticket even if a ranger miraculously appeared out of nowhere. The ridge runner doesn't give tickets.

stranger
04-22-2010, 22:44
The whole Smokies reservation thing is silly really, simply because thru-hikers will fill up the shelters, then those with reservations come in later...this causes conflict.

Also, anyone can say they are a thru-hiker and camp at full shelters, so I don't really see the point. My advice would be if you want to hike the AT through the Smokies this time of year...expect to sleep in your tent.

I agree with the other statements about bringing a personal shelter, all hikers should be 100% self-sufficient in the backcountry as far as I'm concerned.

Wolf - 23000
04-22-2010, 23:26
Ben,

My job requires me to be a dick sometimes when people are doing something they are not suppost to. If that If you are doing what you are suppost to and someone is not then don't ever feel bad for correcting them. They are doing something are not and know it. The only thing your doing it is calling them on it.

Wolf

Bear Cables
04-23-2010, 00:13
Really most hiker are the friendly sort, at least the ones I've met on the trail. Last summer during our section hike through the Smokies, my sister injured her knee going up to Clingman. We had reservations at Siler but when we got to Double Springs it was clear she needed to stop for the day. There were already several hikers there. I announced that we did not have a reservation but couldn't continue due to her knee issue. Before I could even offer to say, "we'll tent" 5 much younger thru hikers jumped up and said they would gladly tent as they were thru hikers and could and wouldn not hear of us not staying at the shelter or tenting.

bfitz
04-23-2010, 01:46
Yeah, unfortunately no firearms allowed in the smokies so you'll have to use diplomacy.

TIDE-HSV
04-23-2010, 02:29
Having hiked the Smokies the last 40 years, I think I've run into just about every shelter situation possible, including packing 30 of us into the Derrick Knob shelter in an ice storm over New Years, 1973. However, last August at the Laurel Gap shelter, I think I ran into one of the most bizarre incidents. There were four in our party, and we'd arrived in rain, got a little clearing and hung a drying line outside. We weren't really spread out in the shelter. A family arrived late, but before dark, and the matriarch surveyed the shelter and started cursing. They'd expected to have the shelter to themselves. My wife is mild-mannered and tried to defuse the situation, offering to move over a slot. The woman exclaimed that there was no way she would allow her child to sleep next to a stranger. (?!?!?!?) Liz, still cool, replied that, in the Park, that could hardly be avoided. Things sort of smoothed out a bit and Liz continued to talk to the lady. They had had a really bad time at Walnut Bottoms. The woman had covered her pack with her rain gear and a bear had basically destroyed the rain gear and the pack, so she was hiking without any rain gear, which was only ponchos, to begin with. Somehow, things became more normal and we became friends and departed that way. They were not US natives. She was from South Africa and he was an MD from another country. He was cool, as were the kids. She seemed to be the only one unsuited to backpacking, since she was not in total control...

Cookerhiker
04-23-2010, 08:01
....the matriarch surveyed the shelter and started cursing. They'd expected to have the shelter to themselves. My wife is mild-mannered and tried to defuse the situation, offering to move over a slot. The woman exclaimed that there was no way she would allow her child to sleep next to a stranger...

Somehow I suspect she wouldn't cut it as a thruhiker!

Tin Man
04-23-2010, 11:13
Somehow I suspect she wouldn't cut it as a thruhiker!

sounds like she has difficulty cutting it as a person... but, maybe that's just me :)

garlic08
04-23-2010, 11:25
Somehow I suspect she wouldn't cut it as a thruhiker!

Sounds to me like she just needs to hike a lot more.

TIDE-HSV
04-23-2010, 11:32
sounds like she has difficulty cutting it as a person... but, maybe that's just me :)

She was odd, all right. She'd be talking to you and suddenly turn to her husband and start another conversation. Or, she'd ask a question and in the middle of your answer do the same thing. Being a control freak, she obsessed on the two little boys, afraid they'd get dirty, etc. Not the best attitude for packing. My wife reminded me that the bear down at Walnut B. didn't destroy her pack, he took it, along with the contents. Also, in the initial tirade, Liz had said to her, calmly, "I'm sure we'll be friends by the time we leave..." :)

TIDE-HSV
04-23-2010, 11:44
Sounds to me like she just needs to hike a lot more.

Seriously! It was, in fact, their first pack. They'd bought most of their gear in Gatlinburg. I told them about REI and Campmor. The guy was really nice. As I remember, Middle Eastern of some sort. Liz reminded me that he was a pediatric anesthesiologist in St. Louis...

GGS2
04-23-2010, 14:23
Always check with your wife about the essential details before opening your mouth. Basic rule.

I was just wondering about South African origins. The animal pests there tend to be true carnivores, and maybe less inclined to classify humans as non-food items. I don't think they have many bears, so she might not have understood the large, furry things in the night. But then, hearing more details, I think it is probably just citification. Now I wonder if she wasn't probably using perfume and toiletries that might have lured the bear in.

It's just very hard for people -- all people, I think -- to understand a situation that they have never experienced before. I remember in first year engineering, the young men from Iran wearing expensive Rolex watches, who had probably never seen the inside of a car's engine compartment or touched a tool, calmly watching as their engine in a test cell slowly lost oil pressure and ran to destruction with seized bearings, the cell slowly filling with smoke. Their log had entries like "can no longer read the gauge owing to smoke." They just had no clue, as they had never been there before, and didn't know what to expect. Not completely their fault, either: the lab instructor had blown the seals by starting the balky engine with a little too much ether.

Lesson: everybody looks like an idiot the first time around, and maybe for quite some time thereafter. I think your wife has probably had practice with quite a few children.

TIDE-HSV
04-23-2010, 14:39
Always check with your wife about the essential details before opening your mouth. Basic rule.

I was just wondering about South African origins. The animal pests there tend to be true carnivores, and maybe less inclined to classify humans as non-food items. I don't think they have many bears, so she might not have understood the large, furry things in the night. But then, hearing more details, I think it is probably just citification. Now I wonder if she wasn't probably using perfume and toiletries that might have lured the bear in.

It's just very hard for people -- all people, I think -- to understand a situation that they have never experienced before. I remember in first year engineering, the young men from Iran wearing expensive Rolex watches, who had probably never seen the inside of a car's engine compartment or touched a tool, calmly watching as their engine in a test cell slowly lost oil pressure and ran to destruction with seized bearings, the cell slowly filling with smoke. Their log had entries like "can no longer read the gauge owing to smoke." They just had no clue, as they had never been there before, and didn't know what to expect. Not completely their fault, either: the lab instructor had blown the seals by starting the balky engine with a little too much ether.

Lesson: everybody looks like an idiot the first time around, and maybe for quite some time thereafter. I think your wife has probably had practice with quite a few children.

First, and last, yes, I do check with her frequently and sometimes wish I had when I didn't. And, yes, we've both had extensive child experience, but my temperament led me in the direction of "who the hell does she think she is?"

The "first timer" hypothesis has some validity, but remember that the husband was also a novice and he was able to take the misfortunes in stride. On toiletries, etc., bears just take packs because they associate them with food. One took my wife's pack back in the early early 90s at Sheep Pen Gap. The food had always been carried in an external bag and the pack was empty. A Ziplok bag, with her drinking tube in it, fell out and the bear stopped and bit that, even though it had never had food in it - same thing - association.

I was concerned for them. We had come from Mt. Sterling, and they were headed in the opposite direction, from Laurel Gap to Sterling. They were going to be greeted by a bear with a cub at Sterling. They had lost some food, a pack, and rain gear for her. It was a rainy several days. When we got out the next night, after staying at Walnut, we found out that they had dumped Sterling and just hiked out, which was a good choice on their parts. We swapped emails and promised to stay in touch, but, as usual, I have no idea where that info is...:o

Skyline
04-23-2010, 15:01
NO, SNP is different than GSMNP. However, SNP also has a bunch of rules for tenters that you need to get a copy of and follow, such as can't camp x number of feet from water, can't camp x number of feet from park boundry, can't camp x number of feet from a paved road, can't camp within x number of feet from a shelter, etc etc etc. The GSMNP is the worst section of the trail. The SNP is the second worst. Yuck.



Here are the actual SNP regs:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/shen/1e2d.htm

Cookerhiker
04-23-2010, 15:17
..... The SNP is the second worst. Yuck.

Profoundly disagree with you on that one, Max.

Skyline
04-23-2010, 23:39
. . . The GSMNP is the worst section of the trail. The SNP is the second worst. Yuck.


Can you be more specific? What makes GSMNP the worst section of the AT? What makes SNP the second worst? Do you find anything good about either of them, or do you believe they are both 100% bad?

TheCheek
04-24-2010, 15:04
Most folks that complain about the NP sections don't like the idea of needing to follow rules and believe they are entitled to camp and cook whereever they want. Not sure if max patch is of that school of thought though...

TheCheek
04-24-2010, 15:06
The implication being that needing to follow rules automatically voids any other good qualities that the trail in that section might have.

The Old Fhart
04-24-2010, 19:01
TheCheek-"The implication being that needing to follow rules automatically voids any other good qualities that the trail in that section might have."Agreed. I could never understand complaining about Federal employees doing their job to protect our public lands. There are reasons for the rules and regulations and knowingly breaking them because you have some big brother conspiracy theory will only result in more and stricter rules.

Roland
04-24-2010, 19:17
Yeah, unfortunately no firearms allowed in the smokies so you'll have to use diplomacy.

This made me laugh, aloud. Thanks for the chuckle.

Lilred
04-25-2010, 10:23
First, I believe you are now allowed to carry firearms in National Parks if you have a permit to conceal. The law changed after Merideth Emerson murder.

The bad about GSMNP is the fact that you have to stay at shelters, and that can suck. Also, the trail in some places is nothing more than a rut that half your leg sinks in, well, half my leg anyhow...(short legs) Also, parts of the trail, horses are allowed on, making for picking your way through horse poop. It rains incessantly in the mountains.

The good, the views are amazing......


As for SNP, I loved it!! Can't for the life of me figure out what is so bad about SNP that the previous poster made it the second worse section of the trail... WHAT?????

With all the campgrounds, food, showers, hotels.... etc..... hiking through SNP was like taking a vacation. LOVED IT!!!