PDA

View Full Version : Pack weight w/out food/water/fuel?



sprocket
10-19-2004, 21:36
Hi all,
I'm reasonably fit, but I know the "first days are the hardest days" (as The Dead sing), and my pack is currently weighing in at 29.25 lb's. This is without food...or water...or even fuel for my stove! Am I askin' for trouble? What is the "ideal" target weight I should look to shave this down to:-? ?

sprocket
10-19-2004, 21:38
PS- My hopeful target was 40# fully loaded and set to jet.....

Frosty
10-19-2004, 21:54
what is your start date?

Kerosene
10-19-2004, 22:25
Well, you're young at 27, but I'm sure those home-brewed Belgian beers aren't contributing much to your fitness level! :sun

Ideally, you would keep your total pack weight to 25% or less of your body weight. So, if you're 160 pounds you would try to keep your highest pack weight to 40 pounds. However, you'll feel a whole lot better at the end of a long day of hiking if you can get that pack down to 20% or less of your body weight, but this might be tough to do for your first real backpacking trip.

Each fluid ounce of water you carry weighs about an ounce. Most section hikers will carry 1.5-3 quarts (I typically carry 2), so figure 4 pounds. Depending on the type of food you bring (freeze-dried vs. dried vs. luxury items) and your size, you should figure 1.5-2 pounds per day for a medium-sized male. As a section hiker, I find that my appetite declines through the first week, kicking into high-gear somewhere towards the end of the second week. Stove fuel will weigh about the same as water, plus the weight of the container.

So, if you're carrying 4 days of supplies at your current pack weight with 8 oz. of fuel and 2 quarts of water with 1.75 pounds of food per day, then your total pack weight will be 29.25 + 0.5 (fuel) + 2.0 (water) + (4 * 1.75 (food)) = 38.75 pounds. Doable if you're 160 pounds or heavier, have a sturdy pack, and are in halfway decent shape.

Look to your "Big 3" to cut shed pounds: pack, shelter, sleeping gear. There are a lot of 2-3 pound packs that work quite well if you can get your total weight below 30 pounds. A hammock or a single-wall tent only weighs 2 pounds, and a solo 2-wall tent can be had for about 3.5 pounds. Invest in a high quality down sleeping bag that will weigh between 1.5 and 2.5 pounds depending on the temperature rating. Finally, realize that your body thermostat will tend to acclimate to cooler temperatures when you've been out for a few days. Make sure you have warm clothes for camp, but don't overdo it, especially if you can resort to your sleeping bag to keep warm on a cold evening.

There are a lot of ideas posted on this board for how to save more weight if you're interested.

sprocket
10-19-2004, 22:42
Frosty, It's March 28th....I know it'll be cold and I planned for that while still keeping the clothes weight total under 5 lbs,

and Kerosene, thanks for the very detailed breakdown....I've already picked up the backpack, a Greg Whitney...a little overkill but when I stuffed 45 #'s in it, it was easily the most comfortable on my frame. My "big 3" (Greg, MH spectre SL and MH Airjet 2) weigh in just over 13 lb's....a little on the heavy side for some hardcore lightweight guru's....but I aint one of those people! I weigh 185 lb's and am 5'9", but I work out quite a bit, too....and yes, The beers have kept me a little more "grounded" than in years past, but hey......I'll work that off in the first month.....
:)

TakeABreak
10-19-2004, 22:53
As Frosty asked, what is your start date? This has a lot to do with your pack weight, winter time you will need warmer clothing and more layers. As kerosene says there is a formula so should not go beyond.

My questions is as frosty asked when is your start date, what does your gear consist of, ie.. stove type, cooking pot Type & material, sleeping bag (down, synthetic other, down type ie 700, 800 or 900).

I and others on here can help with gear options, but not all of my suggestions are cheap.

Examples, my stuff as like this, cooking pot evernew titanium, stove primus alpine titanium (3 ozs), sleeping bag (rated 15 degrees) marmot pinnacle (675 down) 3 1/4 lbs, my next one will be marmot Helium 900 down, rated 15 degres 2lbs.

Bottom line there are ways to save some cost some don't.

Remember; It takes the same amount of energy to carry 2 lbs 2,000 miles as it does to carry 2,000 lbs 2 miles. Email me directly, if you like other sugestions.

SalParadise
10-19-2004, 23:49
You highten the risk of foot or knee injury with a heavier pack, and you'll huff more uphill, but yours isn't an impossible weight to carry. However you may want to be prepared to buy different gear along the way should you eventually decide you'd like to drop weight. And feel free to post your gear list here as far as what you may/may not need to take along. Good luck.

chris
10-20-2004, 10:06
To be perfectly blunt, pack weight is fairly meaningless. The functionality inside of the pack is what counts. For example, your pack could have a lot of cold weather gear because cold is something that brings you down, and getting depressed is a fast ticket off of a hike. Or, you might be hauling a big, strong tent because you don't know how to rig a tarp or like the added wet weather protection on the AT (and it does rain there).

So, a better question to ask is: Am I prepared? Do I have the gear that I want? Do I have everything I need? Am I carrying something that does not add to functionality?

Also, the notion that the first few days are the hardest is something that really doesn't have to come true. Get into reasonable shape (i.e, being able to run 3 miles, with hills, in less than 30 minutes, several times a week) before hand, optimize the functionality in your pack, and the first few days won't be very hard. The hard part will come after a couple of weeks and you realize how far it really is to Katahdin.

But, now that the sermon is over, I will answer your question. I would never carry a 30 lb base load on the AT, even with the early start of late March (though better than early March). Personally, my pack would weigh in the range of 12-14 lbs without food, water, or fuel, and would drop to below 10 lbs after I got to Shenandoah in mid May.

sprocket
10-20-2004, 11:13
Chris, How the &%#@! do you do it?

12 lbs!? Are you comfortable/safe at this weight? Can you gimme an idea of what kind of essential gear you carry (clothing...how much and what kind, stove, bag, tent/tarp....and pack?) and what kind of proficiency/experience needed to subsist safely 2000 miles at this minimilist "style"? I know I won't compromise on too much "comfort", but I ain't going into this thinking I'll be car camping every night either. I've got a 2.5 lb down bag, a 3.5 lb tent, but my backpack, a Greg, weighs in around 7 lb.s......however, when fully loaded w/45#'s or so, it felt like I was only carrying 25 or so....it fit me PERFECTLY. Anyway, It would be great to see how "the other half lives". Could you post your super lightweight list? I'd really like to see the choices you'd made, and maybe a few "why's"?:confused: :-? :)

Happy
10-20-2004, 11:25
Try going to the Ultra-lite section and scroll down to a post "What's the weight of your Big Four" and there are weights for most of us for the heaviest items...that should give you some idea...next post you clothes, first aid etc. for us to look at and try to help.

MileMonster
10-20-2004, 11:54
"Ideal" weight is kind of enigmatic. IMO, as long as you are properly equipped, lighter is better. Buy the lightest piece of gear that gets the job done reliably. With everything lighter you'll probably feel better, hike farther, and be happier. Probably.

Problem is, if you've bought, packed and weighed your gear then you're might not be open to buying/replacing anything at this point. At least until you get to Neels Gap, lol. You say that your 7 lb pack feels great with 45 lbs. Well, a 2.25 lb pack feels great winter weighted w/ food and water at 25 lbs.

I agree you should start with the big three if you want to loose weight. Lots of lbs to loose there. My big three add up to 92 or 106 oz, 5.75 or 6.6 lbs, depending on if I'm carrying amy tarp or Tarptent. And that's with a heavy polarguard sleeping bag (I'm allergic to down). But don't stop there, ounces add up to pounds. Most folks can loose some weight on just about every item in their pack.

And, btw, lightweight doesn't mean more expensive. Yes, a titanium pot and a good down bag are pricey, but most of the rest of the gear is the same or cheaper.

Again, these are my opinions and how I do it. Everyone is different. Good luck to you. Enjoy your journey.

MisterSweetie
10-20-2004, 12:17
That Marmot Helium looks like a nice bag! I like all the weight considerations in this thread, but what about volume considerations? The sleeping bag I have now is nice and warm (maybe 25*), but packed it is huge! Add that to the sleeping pad (z-rest) and it's almost like I have a backpack on the back of my backpack.

Anyway. chris, I enjoyed your musings. I tend to agree with you.

Lone Wolf
10-20-2004, 12:25
sprocket, the pack weight your describing is extremely typical of the average hiker starting at Springer. Go with what you've got and pare down as you go. I'm starting at Springer around the 28th of March also. My pack will be around 40#. It's no biggie.

Moose2001
10-20-2004, 12:44
Sprocket. Lots of good advice in this post. I'd recommend taking the approach of looking at each piece of gear and then assessing it for your "comfort" level. For instance....Tent vs Tarp. Would you be comfortable with a tarp? Can you actually sleep in it. Do you know how to set it up correctly. If you go with a tent...1 man or 2 man. Sleeping pad. Can you actually sleep well on the pad your choosing or is it to thin. Clothes. Are you a warm or cold sleeper? A warm or cold hiker? Once you figure out what you're comfortable with, you can make some intelligent decisions on what gear to take with you.

The kicker in all of this is lots of the gear decisions you make at the start might change as you do miles. You become more comfortable with your abilities and you find you can do well with less or with lighter gear. The outfitters at Walasi-Yi, Hot Springs, and Damascus do well in the Spring just because of that. Plan some extra money in your budget for just this case.

I understand your concern about the weight of your pack. I've carried a Gregory Lassen for two hikes and I'll be taking it back to Springer in 2005. I believe the most important comfort and fitting decision you'll make is your pack. If it doesn't fit, if it's uncomfortable, if it doesn't carry the weight, then you've got big problems. I think the ideal way to buy a pack is get all your other gear first and then buy the pack. It gives you a better idea of what size you need and how much weight you'll be carrying. However, most hikers, including me, buy the pack first. Again, something you learn as you go along. What's the old saying about hindsight?

Finally, work hard at getting your weight as low as possible. Go through all your gear and think if you'll really use it or do you really need it. If you go to Springer and you don't have that 20 pound pack, don't sweat it. If you're comfortable with your gear, you'll do fine.

tlbj6142
10-20-2004, 13:11
On a recent 4-day trip to ME I had a total pack weight of less than 20# (includes food, 1 qt water and fuel). My base weight is close to 9#. I can easily drop another pound from that with a lighter pack and dropping a few "extras" that for some reason I can't get myself to drop.

All of this fits easily inside/outside of a 1800ci pack. Could I use the same setup on a thru hike? Maybe, but I've been told food intake would be significantly higher than what I currently carry. So, I'd probably need a larger pack (say 2500ci to 2800ci). The rest of the gear would probably get a bit lighter. Especially once it was a bit warmer.

A good means to rid yourself of unneeded gear along the trail is to drop something if it hasn't been used in a week. Just keep you cold weather clothing until Memorial Day or Perisburg, VA which ever comes last.

The Solemates
10-20-2004, 13:31
25 lbs seems really high. we left in the dead of winter (Feb 1) from Springer, so had to carry much cold weather gear. My pack was only 33 lbs, complete with food, water, fuel, everything. post your list on here and Im sure all of us would be happy to critique it for you.

chris
10-20-2004, 15:10
My base weight certainly isn't extraordinary among lightweight hikers, but there are not too many of those on the AT, it seems. Whiteblaze is a little non-representative here. Larry's comment is a good one. If you have the gear already, great. Keep with it until you see the need to change. You can figure things out on the trail as you go. However, by lightening up, and keeping functionality, the first few days could be easy.

That being said, you can see my gear list for the PCT in 03 at http://mypage.iu.edu/~chwillet/travel/PCT

A good place to start is to examine your clothing. What do you really need? For a March 28 start, I would be wearing

MEC simplex pants (Schoeller thing)
MEC Rapidi-T
MEC Genie windshirt (not made anymore)
bandana
trail runners
socks
draws

In my pack I'd have a warm hat, thermal tights, MEC Warmwear shirt (like a thermal, but better), MEC Northern Light II pullover, hat, gloves, extra socks. Not as minimal as possible, but it works for me.

Eventually, you may find that you are mostly sleeping in shelters. No reason to carry a tent, although I would recommend you start with one.

Footslogger
10-20-2004, 15:23
It's taken me a while but my base pack weight (w/o food & water) is around 14-15 lbs. Having said that, I did start off at Springer in March 2003 at around 35 lbs (without food/water).

How did I do it ?? First off I dropped between 4 and 5 pounds in raw pack weight alone by going from a Gregory to a Granite Gear Vapor Trail. That was a tough decision because I really like Gregory packs. But in the end it was a good choice. I was already carrying a light tent at 1 lb/11 oz so not much room to cut there. My sleeping bag was a 20 degree down at about 2 lbs and that was as low as I was prepared to go in terms of a comfortable nights sleep. I carried the 3/4 ultralight therma-rest and decided that was where I needed to be. I did lose my heavier nylon/canvass stuff sacks for those of the silnylon variety.

Next I got serious about clothing. I cut back to JUST what I really needed and sent home a lot of the extra "multiples" of certain items. Truth be told, you really don't need a lot of extra shirts/pants/shorts/socks on a distance hike. The more you carry the more that gets dirty/smelly. Once they were gone I have to admit that I never missed them.

I had very few gadgets with me to start with and pretty much finished with the same stuff I had at the beginning ...eg headlight (Tikka), journal/pencil, tootbrush/floss, handbook pages, camera, small radio w/earphones).

Everything I carry (other than water) fits in 5 small silnylon stuff sacks. Tent, sleeping bag, clothing, stove/cookpot, food. The rest gets stashed in pockets on the backpack. I continue to read about the extreme ultralighters who carry 11 - 12 lbs but I'm just not prepared to go there. At some point you begin to cut into your comfort/health and safety. It's a true pleasure carrying a light weight pack on distance hikes but I still want it to be fun and enjoyable.

Anyhew ...that's my experience

'Slogger
AT 2003

SavageLlama
10-20-2004, 15:49
My pack has slowly but surely gotten lighter over the years - and hiking has gotten more enjoyable because of it. It seems that as soon as I throw something out of my pack (extra clothes, extra food, tent bottom, etc.) I never want to put it back in.

My recommendation is to do a wknd hike with the absolute bare bones. My bet is that you'll come back and lighten up your load for Springer.

sprocket
10-20-2004, 15:55
Ok.....here's the list per some of your requests. These items I've already picked up with the exception of the trekking poles and a few other oddsand ends. I got this stuff for winter trips in the whites of NH, but always kept the AT trip in mind....
To reiterate: I'm 5'9", a healthy, not overweight 185lbs. and hike pretty regularly on 3-5 day treks throughout the year. Mtn. Bike 2-3 times a week, but could stand to lose some 10 pounds or so before leaving in March.
So......What should stay, What should go?

Base Layer(s)

Patagonia Capilene Lightweight long sleeve top (size L)
Patagonia Capilene Lightweight bottoms
REI MTS lightweight crew tee (size L)
REI Polypro sock liners (3 pr.)
Smartwool Boxer Briefs
Mid Layer(s)/Insulation:

Arc’Teryx RHO top
Mountain Hardware “Dome” Polartec beanie
Dahlgren Backpacking socks (3pr.)
Thorlo Backpacker socks (1pr.)
Arc’Teryx Gamma SV Gloves

Outerwear/Shell(s):

Marmot Rim Jacket
Arc’Teryx Switchback shorts
Sunglasses
Mountain Hardware trail pants

Footwear:

La Sportiva Glaciers
Green Superfeet Insoles
Camp Shoes (Keen H2’s)
Nikwax Seude
Backpack/Related Gear:

Gregory Whitney
Gregory pack cover
REI strap(s)
3 Liter Nalgene Wide Mouth Hydration Bladder
Waterproof Stuff sack for Sleeping Bag
Waterproof Stuff sack for Emergency clothes (Granite Gear compression)
Fleece lined stuff for dirty clothes/pillow

Kitchen Gear:

Optimus Nova Stove
Snow Peak Middle Cooker 2400 Ti
Snow Peak Ti Spork
Leatherman Charge Ti
MSR Miniworks EX
Big Sky Bistro Coffee Press/Insulated Mug
Ursack
Nalgene 32oz. Wide Mouth Lexan Bottle

Tent/Accessories:

Mountain Hardware Airjet 2
Footprint
Easton stakes
Repair kit
Seam Sealer

Sleeping System:

Mountain Hardware Spectre SL
Cocoon Silk Liner
Big Agnes REM Insulated Air Core 72” Mummy Style pad

Navigation:

Silva Compass
Necessary map(s)
Appropriate Guidebook

Misc. Accessories:

Leki Ultralite Ti Air Ergo PA Trekking Poles
Black Diamond Zenix Headlamp
Digital Camera (Sony/Cannon)
Parachute chord for bear baggin’ (50’)
Suunto observer watch
Blistex
Toothbrush/Paste
Adventure Medical Personal Essentials First-Aid Kit
Bandana(s) 2-3
SAS emergency “tin”
Toilet Paper
“Emergency blanket”
Written Itinerary for family with ETA’s
Extra Lithium batteries
Duct Tape
Ziploc Freezer Bags (many)
Pot Scrubber
Sunscreen
Laminated (sealed) pic’s of Bre’Anna
Universal Phone card
Emergency money ($100.00-$200.00)
Laminated (sealed) Medical card w/ vital info (blood type/allergies/age etc….)

tlbj6142
10-20-2004, 16:28
Check out the 3-season 3-day (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00234.html) list on bpl.com. Don't get worked about the brand/models listed and to a lesser extent don't get too worked up about the item weights. Use it to help you deside which items are "extra".

The list is fairly conservative in terms of item count, it is the specific weights that make it such a lightweight lists. If you end up with an item count (plus/minus 2-3 items) and a pack weight within 2-3# you've done all you can do without making expensive choices.

For example, the above list has sunglasses and sunscreen on it. You probably won't need those items on the AT. But you might want an extra shirt to sleep in. The list has a 32F bag that weighs 15.5oz. If your 20F bag weighs 3.5#, you can do much better.

Moose2001
10-20-2004, 17:13
Sprocket....here's my quick suggestions....I'm sure the ultralighters wil have more for you!

Base Layer(s)

Patagonia Capilene Lightweight long sleeve top (size L)
Patagonia Capilene Lightweight bottoms
REI MTS lightweight crew tee (size L)
REI Polypro sock liners (3 pr.)
Smartwool Boxer Briefs DROP....either wear none or have shorts with a liner
Mid Layer(s)/Insulation:

Arc’Teryx RHO top
Mountain Hardware “Dome” Polartec beanie
Dahlgren Backpacking socks (3pr.) Don't really need 4 pair of socks. 3 will do
Thorlo Backpacker socks (1pr.)
Arc’Teryx Gamma SV Gloves

Outerwear/Shell(s):

Marmot Rim Jacket Heavy....Try a Precip
Arc’Teryx Switchback shorts
Sunglasses Leave at home
Mountain Hardware trail pants

Footwear:

La Sportiva Glaciers
Green Superfeet Insoles
Camp Shoes (Keen H2’s)
Nikwax Seude Leave at Home
Backpack/Related Gear:

Gregory Whitney
Gregory pack cover
REI strap(s) Leave at Home
3 Liter Nalgene Wide Mouth Hydration Bladder
Waterproof Stuff sack for Sleeping Bag
Waterproof Stuff sack for Emergency clothes (Granite Gear compression)
Fleece lined stuff for dirty clothes/pillow

Kitchen Gear:

Optimus Nova Stove
Snow Peak Middle Cooker 2400 Ti
Snow Peak Ti Spork
Leatherman Charge Ti
MSR Miniworks EX
Big Sky Bistro Coffee Press/Insulated Mug Leave the press home
Ursack not needed. Use a #3 OR stuff sack.
Nalgene 32oz. Wide Mouth Lexan Bottle

Tent/Accessories:

Mountain Hardware Airjet 2
Footprint
Easton stakes
Repair kit Leave at Home
Seam Sealer Leave at Home

Sleeping System:

Mountain Hardware Spectre SL
Cocoon Silk Liner
Big Agnes REM Insulated Air Core 72” Mummy Style pad HEAVY
Navigation:

Silva Compass
Necessary map(s)
Appropriate Guidebook

Misc. Accessories:

Leki Ultralite Ti Air Ergo PA Trekking Poles
Black Diamond Zenix Headlamp
Digital Camera (Sony/Cannon)
Parachute chord for bear baggin’ (50’)
Suunto observer watch
Blistex
Toothbrush/Paste
Adventure Medical Personal Essentials First-Aid Kit Don't need this big of kit
Bandana(s) 2-3 You just need one
SAS emergency “tin” what is this?? Get rid of it
Toilet Paper
“Emergency blanket” Leave at home
Written Itinerary for family with ETA’s write it in your databook
Extra Lithium batteries
Duct Tape Just need a little. Dont' bring a big roll
Ziploc Freezer Bags (many)
Pot Scrubber
Sunscreen
Laminated (sealed) pic’s of Bre’Anna
Universal Phone card
Emergency money ($100.00-$200.00)
Laminated (sealed) Medical card w/ vital info (blood type/allergies/age etc….)

MileMonster
10-20-2004, 17:34
My $.02 -

Your list looks pretty good to me. Not alot of unnecessaries or luxury items. The things you have look very functional and of good quality. Just not the lightest on the market in each category.

The clothes you listed, is that everything that will be with you when you start, including what you will have on?

My suggetstions for easy & cheap changes:

Things to ditch -
boxers
nickwax
1 pr socks, 1 pr liners
Seam Sealer
1 or 2 bandanas
SAS emergency tin
emergency blanket

Relativly cheap swaps -
Gregory pack cover for sil-nylon pack cover
Optimus stove for Pepsi can alcohol stove
Waterproof stuff sacks for sil-nylon stuff sacks (if they aren't)
Fleece lined stuff sack/dirty clothes/pillow (dirty clothes as a pillow?? Yikes!) for silnylon clothing stuff sack
MSR Miniworks for Polar Pure
Ursack for silnylon food bag
Lexan water bottle for a 1 liter bottle of water from a mini-mart/gas station
Pare down the medical kit

After that I see mostly bigger and more expensive swap-outs to get really light.

Peaks
10-20-2004, 17:37
Sprocket,

Everyone has their own ideas on what equipment is needed and what is not. Best way for you to find out is to go out there are do it.

That being said, no need for a Ursack. But, you should have a stuff sack for a food bag.

Look for ways to trim ounces. Lexan Nalgenes are nice, but weigh in at over 6 ounces. The HDPE Nalgenes about a couple of ounces lighter. Even lighter yet is a sport drink bottle.

Use the seam sealer on your tent before starting, so you don't need to carry it along. Waterproof your boots before you start, and leave the Nikwax behind, or in a bounce box.

Extra Batteries? For what? Unless you night hike, the batteries in a headlamp last a long long time. And if they get low, then buy replacements in route.

The Solemates
10-20-2004, 17:58
Base Layer(s)

Patagonia Capilene Lightweight long sleeve top (size L)
Patagonia Capilene Lightweight bottoms
REI MTS lightweight crew tee (size L)
REI Polypro sock liners (3 pr.) You dont really need sock liners. I would leave them at home. Even if you did want them, you certainly dont need 3 pair.
Smartwool Boxer Briefs You dont need these. Go without or buy pants that have a liner built in.
Mid Layer(s)/Insulation:

Arc’Teryx RHO top
Mountain Hardware “Dome” Polartec beanie
Dahlgren Backpacking socks (3pr.) Only need 2 pair of socks.
Thorlo Backpacker socks (1pr.) Again, you really only need 2 pair of socks total.
Arc’Teryx Gamma SV Gloves

Outerwear/Shell(s):

Marmot Rim Jacket
Arc’Teryx Switchback shorts Instead of shorts and pants, buy convertibles with a built-in liner. My favorites are the Ex Oficio Amphi pants.
Sunglasses No need for these. You are mainly in forested areas.
Mountain Hardware trail pants

Footwear:

La Sportiva Glaciers
Green Superfeet Insoles
Camp Shoes (Keen H2’s) These are a bit heavy. I would go with Waldies.
Nikwax Seude Put this in a bounce box. Dont carry it the whole way.

Backpack/Related Gear:

Gregory Whitney You could certainly find a lighter pack, but I understand about cost/emotionally attached, etc. if like this one.
Gregory pack cover
REI strap(s) What are these for? Ditch em.
3 Liter Nalgene Wide Mouth Hydration Bladder
Waterproof Stuff sack for Sleeping Bag Try a trash bag...much lighter.
Waterproof Stuff sack for Emergency clothes (Granite Gear compression) ditto.
Fleece lined stuff for dirty clothes/pillow This is unecessary I think.

Kitchen Gear:

Optimus Nova Stove
Snow Peak Middle Cooker 2400 Ti
Snow Peak Ti Spork
Leatherman Charge Ti IMO, there is no need for any type of pocket knife on the AT.
MSR Miniworks EX There lighter filters out there.
Big Sky Bistro Coffee Press/Insulated Mug
Ursack Is this a bear bag? Dont need...just use your sleeping bag bag.
Nalgene 32oz. Wide Mouth Lexan Bottle Plastic soda bottles are lighter.

Tent/Accessories:

Mountain Hardware Airjet 2 There are lighter tents.
Footprint
Easton stakes
Repair kit Put this in a bounce box.Seam Sealer Put this in a bounce box.

Sleeping System:

Mountain Hardware Spectre SL
Cocoon Silk Liner I would not take this. Depends on your temp rating of your bag and your sleeping habits.
Big Agnes REM Insulated Air Core 72” Mummy Style pad Use a much lighter foam pad.

Navigation:

Silva Compass A compass is not needed on the AT. Go North.
Necessary map(s) Maps are not needed on the AT. Follow the trail.
Appropriate Guidebook

Misc. Accessories:

Leki Ultralite Ti Air Ergo PA Trekking Poles
Black Diamond Zenix Headlamp
Digital Camera (Sony/Cannon)
Parachute chord for bear baggin’ (50’) I carried none and never had a need for it. Hang it on a limb via your sleeping bag bag.
Suunto observer watch
Blistex Not needed.
Toothbrush/Paste
Adventure Medical Personal Essentials First-Aid Kit If you want to...
Bandana(s) 2-3 One should be sufficient.
SAS emergency “tin” What is this?
Toilet Paper
“Emergency blanket” Not needed.
Written Itinerary for family with ETA’s Write this in your guidebook.
Extra Lithium batteries Bounce these items.Duct Tape Bounce this.
Ziploc Freezer Bags (many) Bounce.
Pot Scrubber Use your bandana.
Sunscreen Not needed.
Laminated (sealed) pic’s of Bre’Anna
Universal Phone card
Emergency money ($100.00-$200.00)
Laminated (sealed) Medical card w/ vital info (blood type/allergies/age etc….)

I have made many comments on this, but dont take it personally. Everyones gear is different to them. I just pared it down to the essentials according to me. If it was me, I dont know that I would go out and buy new stuff unless you had some extra cash that you could do so. I was just trying to give lighter alternatives. Just trying to help...

SalParadise
10-20-2004, 18:23
Actually, before the leaves came out, I was glad I had my sunglasses.
You'll never notice the stink of your clothes when you sleep on them, don't worry.
Do you have two bottoms? You'll only need one pair.
You don't really need the water filter.
I used a pocketknife all the time, particularly to open/cut food.
Do you still have the receipt? Get the 1-person AirJet, a tarp or a hammock and you could save yourself 3-4 pounds right there.

It's really just your "Big 3" that you would hate buying lighter replacements of, simply for cost reasons. Everything else you'll figure out as you get to be a more savvy long-distance hiker.

sprocket
10-20-2004, 19:16
Actually, I was thinking of nixin' the skivvies, a few bandans and the shades.....but no compass? No maps on such a well marked path, maybe, but I haven't been without my pocket knife or a compass since the scouts. You know the credo...
Buying new stuff isn't so much of an issue for me right now (first time in ten yearsI can say that). I'll be swappin' out the bag for a warmerone around the first week of May. I see the point of shaving down the pairs of socks....will do, but "toasty" feet in clean socks at night is one of those "comforts" I can't be without. MH doesn't make an Airjet "1", or I woulda snagged it, but another tent I liked was the MSR zoid? Any comments on other good 3 season tents (not ready for the hammocks or tarps......yet)? I had planned on bouncin' a lot of this stuff, I just listed it for consideration(s). I got the Nalgene bladder and bottle cause the miniworks hooks right up to it, no fuss. But no filters? I guess I could aquamira it all the way, but is it good for you for so long? The MH bag is rated to 20 deg. F, so I didn't see the need for the liner either, but keeping it clean minimizes how many times I gotta wash the bag.....retaining loft etc....
No Ursack.....got it. The "SAS tin" is an empty altoids case filled with assorted fish hooks, duct tape, nylon string, needles and other emergengy stuff I got into the habit of carrying in the scouts years ago. Gotten from the SAS survival handbook we practiced knot tying, snare making, tracking etc...
And I guess finally....What's the deal with alcohol stoves? I knowthey are WAY lighter than the multi fuel one I'm used to, but I heard while they are quite simple in design, they don't work so well in extreme cold, take longer to cook with, and therefore require more fuel in the end.....basically equalling the weight of what I'd be taking anyway...."discuss it amongst yourselves:-? " without the ease of use/control that the Nova DEFINITELY has. And lastly, the Marmot Rim is only an ounce more in weight than the precip....with better wind protection and reinforced elbows....and just plain SOLID!
Ok....I think that's it. Comments?

Dances with Mice
10-20-2004, 20:26
Three points:

First, being a former Scout and more recently a former Scout leader, the main difference between backpacking as practiced by the BSA and by long distance hikers is one of mind set. It took me a while to make the transition.

Scouts practice setting up a comfortable campsite, then packing up the campsite and moving it elsewhere. That may be oversimplified, but not much. Their emphasis is on camping and taking redundant safety measures. Think of long distance hiking as a long walk interrupted by a series of emergency bivoucs. Imagine walking all day then crashing, carrying just enough to prepare a simple meal and to sleep warm and protected. The emphasis is on walking, the camping portion is whittled down to the bare necessities.

Second: Your Ursack reminded me of my last Scout troop, they bought several of the large Ursacks for a backpacking trip to Colorado. It made the most perfect bag for my Thermarest pad! Bulletproof! Then at night when I took out my pad, it got used to hang the food. Just a thought. I don't carry one anymore.

Third - it's easy to adjust your cooking style to the type of stove you have. An alcohol stove reliably boils a couple cups of water. It's easy to find foods that fit that cooking style. I don't have the link handy but a Google search of "Iditarod alcohol stove" will show that all Iditarod dog sled racers use alcohol burners because they work reliably, even in extreme cold. And they're boiling 5 gallons or so of water at a time! They can carry any stove they want, but they've all switched to home-made alcohol burners. See Sgt Rock's page for a great discussion of alcohol burners.

Happy
10-20-2004, 20:43
It's not if you will go to a alcohol stove but when? I use them in GA in Jan with no problem. I hike every March and April with aspiring thru hikers and the trail registers are full of comments of I HAVE TO REDUCE MY PACK WEIGHT
to prevail!

Why do you think that over two tons of gear each year is shipped home from 30 miles of the start? Better to figure this out from the beginning. Not that some hikers prevail the whole way with 60 pounds..but be smarter!

I have never heard a thru hiker say they enjoyed more weight! Use the above comments to start with 30 or less pounds from Springer and you will be very Happy!

sprocket
10-20-2004, 21:26
Thank you Happy, and as for Dances with Mice, Your comments are exactly what I've been searching for....gimme the REASONS and a deal of proof as to why I need to or should change my "ways"....I think I'll start looking into an alcahol stove alternative....

Happy
10-20-2004, 21:37
Every thru hiker I have hiked with in the past four years has asked the same questions as you have and changed their mind over the next 30 to 300 hundred miles!

Just trying to give you an early alternative! As LW stated just start as you plan and adjust as you see fit...just trying to save you weight during your adjustment...let me know when you finish!!!

Peaks
10-21-2004, 08:16
The comments on your gear list reflects different opinions about what's necessary and what's not. All well intentioned, but the choice is yours.

Certainly take some of the suggestions with a grain of salt such as no maps. Perhaps the AT can be hiked without them, but it's certainly not being responsible. Carry the appropriate maps.

Waterproof stuff sack? Myself I use sil nylon stuff sacks that are waterproof. So, I don't need a plastic bag to line the stuff sack.

Use sleeping bag stuff sack for a food bag? Not me. I use an additional food bag for a food bag. It keeps food smell and mess if something ruptures from gettting all over my pack.

Clothing is relatively light. Use your own judgement.

grrickar
10-21-2004, 11:10
Sprocket - It does take a slightly different mindset when moving from the Boy Scout motto - "Be Prepared" to long distance hiking. My first trip out the heaviest my pack ever got was about 38lbs, and that was with 5 days food, water, and fuel to last 9-10 days (turns out I brought some food and fuel back at the end). I felt like I was ready for most situations, and knew I could improvise in others. I will likely never be considered an utlralighter - I like having the gear when I need it.

Here is my list if that will help (from my first section hike):

O2 Rainwear (tops and bottoms)
1 long sleeve Duofold coolmax type shirt
2 short sleeve coolmax type shirts (One duofold, one Columbia)
Duofold long johns (tops and bottoms)
2 pair compression shorts (a must to prevent chafing, else go commando!)
2 pair convertable Sports Afield pants (zip off legs)
2 pair wool hiking socks
3 pair sock liners (I wanted my feet to be dry, but they seldom were)
duct tape
20oz propel water bottle
1.5 liter Kelty hydration bladder
Mountain Hardware 2nd Dimension 20 degree bag (way overkill for the temps we encountered)
First aid kit (moleskin and duct tape being the most used components)
Motrin (carry plenty, if hiking long days you will welcome it)
Thermarest Prolite 3 self-inflating pad (full length - again, overkill)
Granite Gear ultralight compression sack for sleeping bag
Granite Gear compression sack for clothes
ziplocs (a couple of 2 qt, a one gallon and a two gallon)
Small bottle Dr. Bronners soap (for dishes,clothes and self)
Msr pack towel
Princeton Tec Aurora headlamp
Princeton Tec EclipseII pinchlight
waterproof matches
two firestarter sticks (wax and sawdust?)
Optimus Nova stove
22oz MSR fuel bottle with Coleman fuel
Snow Peak 3 cup pot with lid
Small plastic bowl nested inside(measuring cup, drinking cup, bowl to eat out of, etc)
MSR Miniworks Filter
maps and compass
watch with thermometer, compass built in
digital camera
Equinox silnylon food bag
MSR Hubba one man tent with footprint

Things I would do differently:
-Only bring one pair convertable pants and one pair of compression shorts
-Lighter, higher rated sleeping bag (it got hot in that bag with the temps we had)
-leave the firestarter sticks behind (I gave them away the last day)
-Carry less fuel (16oz?)
-sort out exactly what I was going to eat which meal and ensure I wasn't bringing back food (although we finished early, so we might have been dead on had we not)

The Solemates
10-21-2004, 15:35
You asked about the tent...I think the best tent on the market for a thru-hike is the Mtn Hardwear Waypoint. It comes in a 1 or 2-man version. The 1-man version weighs a mere 3 lbs, one of the lightest out there that still is an enclosed tent.

After you described the "tin" I dont think you need any of those things.

Your sleeping bag is gonna get nasty either way. I would still leave the liner at home. You should be ok with the 20 deg, as long as you are leaving at a normal time (ie late march or later).

I would still take a filter and a gas stove. I dont like to think about an extended period of exposure to chemical treatment, not to mention I often pumped from mudholes and chemical treatment would not have worked. A gas stove is always a plus in my mind. No alcohol here.

A-Train
10-21-2004, 17:37
Funny, everyones said to ditch the emergency blanket. I might keep it for awhile, maybe until after the smokies. Sure it seems ridiculous to most thru-hikers when thinking about spring/summer hiking but...

I started 3/1 and had an insanly cold night at Gooch Gap on the 2nd night. It was below zero with windchill for sure and I couldnt fall asleep because I was shivering so hard, even with my 20 degree bag, ALL my clothes and a liner. It was either the emergency blanket, or the cold water I drank, or a combo of the two, but I was able to stay alive and even fall asleep!

I know ur leaving 3/28-but its one of those things that you won't need until you do...Plus it weighs all over 2 ozs

sprocket
10-22-2004, 00:36
I agree Atrain, "Be prepared" has been my adopted motto since I was 8. I got the heavier Gregory Whitney pack for the reason that it could carry 40+ lbs. comfortably with that superb suspension that it has. I guessI was hoping to pare down the 29lb. dry weight to about 21-22lbs, but I can't see how to do this and still "Hike my own hike".....or style. some peeps say alcohol stoves are the shizz...and others say gas is the way to go. I KNOW I've got the perfect clothes setup, I've used it for a couple years now minus the recent addition of the Arc' RHO top. Sure, I could shave major weight with a tarp, a sub 2lb synthetic bag, alcohol stove and a pack without any semblance of suspension......nixxing all the creature comforts of decent trail food in the stead of boil bags, but hey....i love waking up to a GOOD cup of joe, Cumin and Dhanajiru powder go a long way with just a wee pinch and bug protection just feels right.....so, is there anywhere else y'all could suggest shavin my list? Or do I just gotta eat the weight, wich has been allright to me for week long exploits in the whites? I guess in the end, it seems like I'll just have to "walk the walk" and discard as neccesity dictates.....

sprocket
10-22-2004, 00:43
And by the way, every one of your responses has helped a great deal. I can't tell you the trepidation I've got going on, heading into the woods for MONTHS at a time....It's great to know such a resource exists. I love you ALL, man....sniff....er........um.....sorry, still emotional 'bout the Sox winning the ALCS....:cool:

Dances with Mice
10-22-2004, 02:43
I guessI was hoping to pare down the 29lb. dry weight to about 21-22lbs........so, is there anywhere else y'all could suggest shavin my list? ....
If you've decided to make no changes in your choice of backpack, tent, cooking gear, sleeping bag and clothes, how much is left?

sprocket
10-22-2004, 08:23
Dances with Mice said: "If you've decided to make no changes in your choice of backpack, tent, cooking gear, sleeping bag and clothes, how much is left?"

It's not that I won't change any of the "big 4", just looking for feedback on the other things you all do to skimp the weight down.....like, how much medical kit do I really need? I'll pare down the clothes by leavin' the skivvies at home as well as one pr. of socks and liners. And what about the cooking gear? It's a single pot with frypan/lid....Did you second the leaving behind m beloved coffee press:confused: :confused: :confused: ?. The press doubles as an insulated mug for ramen and "add hot water and let sit" meals......<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

kncats
10-22-2004, 08:43
Just a couple of observations:

The Mountain Hardwear tent you are looking at weighs 4# 6oz and has 30 square feet of floor space. For one person that's a cavern. You really can get much lighter and still use a tent. The tent my wife and I use weighs 2# 5oz and has 40 square feet of floor space. But, if you don't want to go with a single wall tent you can still get down to about 3#.

There are plenty of packs that have a very good semblance of suspension that weigh a good deal less than 7#. My external frame packs weighs in at 4# 1 oz and has more suspension than ANY internal frame pack can. A lot of the weight in your Gregory comes from the fact that it is 5000+ cubic inches. Even in the middle of winter with heavy gear that's a lot of room.

For me the fact that the MSR filter connects right up the the Nalgene is a moot point. I just put the outlet hose from my filter right into the water bag. I have the attachment to connect it to the water bladder but I don't carry it because it's not really necessary. Personally though, I say stay with the filter itself even though it's heavier than chemicals.

As far as the alcohol stove goes, yes, they do use more fuel in the long run. But you would have to be carrying all of your fuel needs for a long time period in order for a liquid or canister stove to win out weight wise. Even if you're refueling only once a week then the alcohol stove still is lighter. You don't need to give up "all the creature comforts of decent trail food" just because your burning alcohol instead of white gas. There are ways to fix up an alky burner to simmer and cook whatever you want. The Trangia comes with a great, easy to use simmer attachment and people have designs for the even lighter soda can stoves also. And whether the food comes to a simmer or boil in 3 minutes or 8 isn't a big deal. We find something else to do while the food's cooking.

A french press makes fantastic coffee and no one loves coffee more than I do. However, at 7 oz for the press plus the additional weight of coffee grounds versus other means of making a hot, caffeinated beverage just became too much to really be worth it over a long period of time and my press is now relegated to the old gear box. YOu don't really need the insulated cup for ramen noodles or sit and wait meals. They can do that in the pan you already have.

Most of all, just keep an open mind. Hike your own hike but be willing to investigate other ways to skin that cat.

sprocket
10-22-2004, 09:21
Kncats,

As you can probably tell, I''m following this thread very carefully and listening to all the reccomendations (I should I guess, I started it....:-). What 2# tent are you using? I could care less if it's single wall, just "enclosed" for buggi-ness. enough room fo pack n' boots in vestibule...
You also mentioned "...versus other means of making a hot, caffeinated beverage..." Gimme the good news, friend! I NEED coffee in the morning, and I don't think my heart even starts beating until that aroma hits the olfactory senses. And lastly, I've heard lots of peeps mention the Trangia and it's various accoutrements...where, though can I view/get diagrams and directions for making my own GOOD lightweight alcohol stove? with pic's etc?
Thanx all.....

Dances with Mice
10-22-2004, 09:32
...like, how much medical kit do I really need? ... And what about the cooking gear? It's a single pot with frypan/lid....Did you second the leaving behind m beloved coffee press... "add hot water and let sit" meals......

I guess what everybody is saying is there are no right answers. It's all a matter of setting priorities, and recognizing that your priorities will probably change. For a medical kit I carry antibacterial ointment, bandaids and sports tape, other people have more elaborate kits, some just rely on duct tape and bandanas. The pot's ok, probably won't use the frypan but then SmokyMtnSteve can't live without his pancakes and fancy coffee. I have the same coffee press as you but it stays in my office and I carry 'Cafe Bustelo' instant and a Campbell's Soup-to-Go cup, but I don't know anyone else who does. Equipment doesn't really matter all that much, within reason, and you can make adjustments as you go.

This guy started with nothing and did pretty well...
http://www.debralauman.com/screamer.shtml

tlbj6142
10-22-2004, 10:46
Have you check out the Six Moon Design Lunar Solo (http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/store/shopexd.asp?id=33) while it is a bit "heavy" at 24 oz, you'd be hard pressed to find a "better" solo tent? Ron is a hiker (and a long distance hiker), his designs are well thought out and very usable. And its only $175 now. Not sure what the Waypoint goes for, but I'd guess its more than $175.

And the old stand by of TarpTent Virga (http://www.tarptent.com/) isn't a bad option either.

Don't forget you are probably going to spend very little time in your tent of choice. Its just for sleeping. Besides, most hikers end up staying at shelters 80%+ of the time anyway. Especially after the crowds have thinned out a bit. They are just too damn convient.

If you don't have a bag yet, or want to replace it, check out one of the WM bags (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/thebags.htm). Like the Versalight.

You'll want a thinner bag for the warmer months. My brother tried to go with the $30 army poncho liner, but found it was just a bit too cold. And ended up buying the REI Tavel Down Bag (http://www.rei.com/product/47605132.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CAMPING_TOC). Its a nice summer bag. Full zip, so on hot nights you can use it like a quilt, but on colder nights the hood helps keep out the drafts. Great bag at $99, IMO.

Frosty
10-22-2004, 11:00
Dances with Mice said: "If you've decided to make no changes in your choice of backpack, tent, cooking gear, sleeping bag and clothes, how much is left?"

It's not that I won't change any of the "big 4", just looking for feedback on the other things you all do to skimp the weight down.....like, how much medical kit do I really need? I'll pare down the clothes by leavin' the skivvies at home as well as one pr. of socks and liners. And what about the cooking gear? It's a single pot with frypan/lid....Did you second the leaving behind m beloved coffee press:confused: :confused: :confused: ?. The press doubles as an insulated mug for ramen and "add hot water and let sit" meals......<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->You CAN bring two pots and a mug, but you don't NEED them. It's a case of how much comfort do you want?

I think what Dances with Mice meant was not that you COULDN'T reduce pack weight after taking along the big 4 and cooking gear that you want, but how much weight is left to be saved.

I started to shift from the old mindset to ultralight a couple years ago. Being an engineer, I did it logically. I put all my gear in an Excel spreadsheet, gear in one column, weight in ouncecs in another column. Then I sorted on weight, heaviest to lightest.

That shows you where weight savings are possible. The heavier something is, the more you might possibly shave. Just look at each item, see if you CAN (want to) change it, and check it's cost effectiveness. (Cost of changing).

My bag went first. Six and a half pounds was replaced by one and a half pounds. That was easiest.

If you do this, and decide to keep all the things you want to keep (which is fine), you can easily see with the spreadsheet how much savings is left. If your big 4 and cooking gear and clothing weigh a combined 32 pounds, there ain't any way you're going to get to 25 pounds, no matter how much you cut off of that toothbrush handle or how many bandaids you pull out of you first aid kit.

I determined cost effectness of weight savings with three more columns. The weight of the new item, the cost of the new item, and a column where I divided the cost by the difference in weight of the old and new. That gave me a number: dollars per ounce saved. The fewer dollars it cost to save an ounce, the more effective was the purchase.

Caveat: I am not the voice of thruhiking experience, as my hike is next year. But I have been working at paring weight and trip testing it with one and two day backpacks.

MileMonster
10-22-2004, 11:04
Sounds like you're happy with your gear list as it is. It also sounds like you've carried it without complaints before. If so then don't sweat it. If you want to make changes as you hike then you will. You mentioned "heading into the woods for months at a time." I understand your anxiety. I felt it, too. Don't worry too much, though. It's not exactly that dramatic. Yes, the whole hike takes a while, but think of it more like a series of 4-6 day trips. Plenty of opportunity to make changes.

Now, if you want to make changes before you go, here are my answers to some of your questions:

In my first-aid kit. A few band-aids, blister care, sunscreen, bug repellant (after it warms up), vitamin I (ibuprofin), antacids, anti-bacterial hand gel, a few wet-ones wipes. That's about it. All carried in a plastic zip-lock bag.

A single 1 liter pot worked well for me, and I cooked for two. My "cooking" only involved boiling water, though. I used a piece of reynolds wrap for the pot lid and for a windscreen. I added new reynolds wrap for replacements in my maildrops as I knew the pieces would get tattered after a while. I NEVER had a need for a fry pan.

Another fresh coffee alternative are the coffee singles. Bad coffee, but it has caffein.

Alki stove directions (one version) - http://www.pcthiker.com/pages/gear/pepsiGstoveinstruct.shtml
If you don't want to build one, the Brasslite Turbo-F is on sale, $20. It's lighter than my home made set-up. -
http://www.brasslite.com/products.html

Some light-weight tents -

Hilleberg Akto - http://www.hilleberg.com/Catalog/tents_47616_products.htm
I hiked alot with Felix this year. He carried this tent and liked it alot. He pitched it just about every night, even if he was at a shelter.

Montbell - https://www2.montbell.com/america/asp/products/Spg_itiran.asp?cat=1204

Stephenson's Warmlite - http://www.warmlite.com/tents_In.htm

Henry Shires Tarptent - with bathtub floor and bug netting, it's not just a tarp.
http://www.tarptent.com

Six Moon Designs Lunar Solo - new, no reviews.
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/

Wanderlust Nomad Lite or 2-4-2 - http://www.wanderlustgear.com/

MSR Micro-Zoid - I've seen many of these but not on the AT. Not much room once you're in it, but it has a vestibule.
http://www.msrcorp.com/tents/microzoid.asp

kncats
10-22-2004, 11:07
The tent we are using is a Tacoma-For-2 shelter from Dancing Light Gear. Look in the Links section for Trailquest.net. But again, that's a huge tent for one person. It has them but you won't need the vestibules for your pack and boots, it'll all fit inside. The tent's a little quirky but we like it. I did a review on it in the Gear Review forum. Brawny also makes some other tarp tents that are lighter and smaller that still have a floor and bug protection.

As far as the coffee goes unfortunately I've only been able to come up with "acceptable" substitutes, not its equal. I drink coffee 24/7 and only the real thing is right. I've tried instant but it's not the same. I may try the Bustelo instant, their ground coffee is very good. Right now we're using tea bags. It's not as good as having a good cup of coffee but it's real and you can make it plenty strong.

Look in the Links area for Stovestomper's and the Wings web pages for info on making your own alky burner. SGT Rock's HikingHQ also has a wealth of stuff on it. If you look at the Trangia you don't need all the accoutrements like pot and pan sets. Just the burner (with lid and simmer ring) and stand are all you want. We use the windscreen from our MSR Whisperlight.

sprocket
10-22-2004, 11:51
Sweet! great link for the stove, MileMonster. I was thinking bout the Akto and and the Six moon design tents, but I went with the MH Airjet cause it was a stand alone and didn't REQUIRE guyin' out....But the Atko was my first choice and might be better all things considered. I know shelters are convenient, but I'll probably be using my tent nightly as opposed to being crammed in w/ a dozen + others in the first couple hundred miles....Tea is allright with me, too. Self contained packaging and can bounce in my supplies. Good.

What about this for a minimal first aid kit: few band-aides, 3M medi tape roll, moleskin, Ibuprophen, Potassium Permanganate (multi useful for treating water/anti fungicide read:athletes foot) couple sewing needles/nylon thread and a condom (emergengy water bottle.....or whatever;) )

grrickar
10-22-2004, 13:49
I'd throw some iodine and duct tape in that first aid kit. The med tape might work better but duct tape serves a double purpose of repairing gear. Carry plenty of Vitamin "I". I took six a day for aches and pains, and maybe even some bee sting swabs. I saw a nasty yellowjacket nest right in the trail near Brown Fork Gap, and some posts here have indictaed that they have been really aggressive lately. One group we met had one of their hikers stung 5 times.