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TD55
04-30-2010, 22:50
Maybe it is time to change your paradigm. Maybe if you stopped complaining about people not doing things for you and you took some initiative people might be interested in working with you. How about you go and meet these people where they are instead of wanting them to come to you. I mean you are the one wanting something, but you want everyone to hold your hand through it all like a child.

Wrong. It's the hikers who are getting short changed. They are the ones missing Mahar Tote Rd. Mahar Tote Rd. is just one of the roads that intersects the 100 mile stretch. It isn't the WHL folks job to get a road sign put up. This problem could have been solved years ago if it were about a sign. The people in charge could have put up a nice small wooden carved sign that said nothing other than Mahar Tote Road and perhaps the mileage to Abol Bridge. Nothing about WHL. At some later date WHL could have requested that a small sign be added that said WHL Trail with an arrow and a blue dot.

white_russian
04-30-2010, 23:37
Wrong. It's the hikers who are getting short changed. They are the ones missing Mahar Tote Rd. Mahar Tote Rd. is just one of the roads that intersects the 100 mile stretch. It isn't the WHL folks job to get a road sign put up. This problem could have been solved years ago if it were about a sign. The people in charge could have put up a nice small wooden carved sign that said nothing other than Mahar Tote Road and perhaps the mileage to Abol Bridge. Nothing about WHL. At some later date WHL could have requested that a small sign be added that said WHL Trail with an arrow and a blue dot.
Yeah the MATC could have put a Mahar Tote Road sign up, but when the beneficiaries of that sign go around acting like it is their god given right to put up free advertising on property that they are not the sole owners of they probably got some people pissed off. Now it doesn't sound like WHL has tried to warm up to those pissed off people and instead they just want to sit here and complain. Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL when WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation with the MATC?

TD55
04-30-2010, 23:55
Now it doesn't sound like WHL has tried to warm up to those pissed off people and instead they just want to sit here and complain. Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL when WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation with the MATC?

Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL? Because being pissed off is not a valid excuse for a responsible entity to punish a third, uninvolved party, specifically, hikers who miss the WHL access trail or get lost looking for it. The statement that WHL is just complaining is unfair in my opinion. Negative comments have been made and they have every right to respond and tell their side of the story. The statement that WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation is just inaccurate.

nitewalker
04-30-2010, 23:58
i have not been to WHL but would like to go someday. i have been a business owner for sometime now and one of the really important things i have learned is if you really want something you need to do it yourself. that means chase the paperwork and cover all the angles to insure your endeavor is a success. why WHL failed to get the proper permits is baffling considering this has been going on for sometime. most people learn from their mistakes for the most part. get the forms and go thru the proper channels if u want your sign and tote rd.

now if the matc is handing out aceess to signage and trails to other businesses without proper forms then they are not playing fair. in the case of the amc favortism maybe they get it because they are a long standing organization with a pretty large foot print in the east and deserve it. basically if the matc wants it done one way then do it that way and get t he sign legally. it will solve alot of grieff....

TD55
04-30-2010, 23:59
I want to go back to the very beginning. Did they ever even try to grease the wheels to get their sign?

Maybe let that section's maintainer join you at the dinner table and stay at the camp for free or when they were working on the trail. Maybe join the MATC. Then talk about a sign.

BTW, some folk just find bribery unacceptable.

Tin Man
05-01-2010, 07:17
http://www.merchandisemaven.com/mart/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/lshirt-ohnoezdrama.jpg

weary
05-01-2010, 07:36
i have not been to WHL but would like to go someday. i have been a business owner for sometime now and one of the really important things i have learned is if you really want something you need to do it yourself. that means chase the paperwork and cover all the angles to insure your endeavor is a success. why WHL failed to get the proper permits is baffling considering this has been going on for sometime. most people learn from their mistakes for the most part. get the forms and go thru the proper channels if u want your sign and tote rd.

now if the matc is handing out aceess to signage and trails to other businesses without proper forms then they are not playing fair. in the case of the amc favortism maybe they get it because they are a long standing organization with a pretty large foot print in the east and deserve it. basically if the matc wants it done one way then do it that way and get t he sign legally. it will solve alot of grieff....
AMC got no favoritism, at all.

camp mom
05-01-2010, 07:57
You are asking for special treatment. No one owes you a visit or should send you a form. You need to do that yourself. But I will provide a link for you to contact the NPS offices in Harpers Ferry. No charge. ;)

http://www.nps.gov/appa/

Good luck. Seriously. I mean it.
thank you.

camp mom
05-01-2010, 07:59
Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL? Because being pissed off is not a valid excuse for a responsible entity to punish a third, uninvolved party, specifically, hikers who miss the WHL access trail or get lost looking for it. The statement that WHL is just complaining is unfair in my opinion. Negative comments have been made and they have every right to respond and tell their side of the story. The statement that WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation is just inaccurate.thank you.

white_russian
05-01-2010, 08:18
Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL? Because being pissed off is not a valid excuse for a responsible entity to punish a third, uninvolved party, specifically, hikers who miss the WHL access trail or get lost looking for it. The statement that WHL is just complaining is unfair in my opinion. Negative comments have been made and they have every right to respond and tell their side of the story. The statement that WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation is just inaccurate.
You are completely right that with the statement that I underlined, but that is not the way the world works. We do not live in an ideologically perfect world. In the practical world if you want somebody on your side you take the initiative, you go to them, you kiss their butt as much as you need to get the job done.

kanga
05-01-2010, 09:48
that's not the practical world at all. in fact that is the antithesis of practical. that is the way of pitiful people who cannot earn anything on their own.

fascinated
05-01-2010, 10:32
Why should the MATC want to cooperate with WHL? Because being pissed off is not a valid excuse for a responsible entity to punish a third, uninvolved party, specifically, hikers who miss the WHL access trail or get lost looking for it. The statement that WHL is just complaining is unfair in my opinion. Negative comments have been made and they have every right to respond and tell their side of the story. The statement that WHL has not shown a bit of cooperation is just inaccurate.

So let me get this straight. Hikers need a sign to tell them the name of the road? And a sign to tell them where to get a hamburger? Whatever happened to self reliance? How come some hikers can find this place, and others can't? Could it be that some people need to improve their navigational skills? (insert lightbulb here) Enough with enabling hikers who can't find their own rear end - even with a map and compass. ;)

One thing is worth mentioning... At either end of the so-called 100 mile wilderness, you will find signs urging you to carry 10 days of supplies. Nobody NEEDS a hamburger or a pint of Ben & Jerrys in this stretch. Backpacking is supposed to teach you the difference between needs & wants. This lesson is clearly lost on some folks.

fiddlehead
05-01-2010, 10:52
So let me get this straight. Hikers need a sign to tell them the name of the road? And a sign to tell them where to get a hamburger? Whatever happened to self reliance? How come some hikers can find this place, and others can't? Could it be that some people need to improve their navigational skills? (insert lightbulb here) Enough with enabling hikers who can't find their own rear end - even with a map and compass. ;)

One thing is worth mentioning... At either end of the so-called 100 mile wilderness, you will find signs urging you to carry 10 days of supplies. Nobody NEEDS a hamburger or a pint of Ben & Jerrys in this stretch. Backpacking is supposed to teach you the difference between needs & wants. This lesson is clearly lost on some folks.

What HE said!

kanga
05-01-2010, 10:58
Backpacking is supposed to teach you the difference between needs & wants. This lesson is clearly lost on some folks.

holy crap! you mean this whole time i've been in the woods, enjoying the view, the peace, the excercise, the commune with good friends, i was doing it WRONG! jeez! i sure wish you had been around when i first started hiking. could have saved me a lot of wasted time.

heads up, there, fascinated. i have been aware of the difference between my needs and wants for quite some time. backpacking didn't teach me that. my parents did. please speak solely for yourself.

fascinated
05-01-2010, 12:51
holy crap! you mean this whole time i've been in the woods, enjoying the view, the peace, the excercise, the commune with good friends, i was doing it WRONG! jeez! i sure wish you had been around when i first started hiking. could have saved me a lot of wasted time.

heads up, there, fascinated. i have been aware of the difference between my needs and wants for quite some time. backpacking didn't teach me that. my parents did. please speak solely for yourself.

Congrats Ms. Snarky. :D

I was directing my comment to TD55. Not you. TD55 seemed outraged that some poor hiker might miss a burger or a pint of ice cream, and wanted the trail changed to avoid that possibility. Guess what? Some of us hikers think that the HIKER should be the one to change (ie: learn some navigational skills, spring for a map) rather than changing the trail to accommodate a commercial enterprise or a hikers whims.

How do you like them apples?

TD55
05-01-2010, 13:32
Congrats Ms. Snarky. :D

I was directing my comment to TD55. Not you. TD55 seemed outraged that some poor hiker might miss a burger or a pint of ice cream, and wanted the trail changed to avoid that possibility. Guess what? Some of us hikers think that the HIKER should be the one to change (ie: learn some navigational skills, spring for a map) rather than changing the trail to accommodate a commercial enterprise or a hikers whims.

How do you like them apples?

Why do you feel the need to exaggerate and take my comments and post so far to the point where you are just making stuff up? I'm not outraged. Just making some observations and adding my two cents worth. I never said anything about a poor hiker missing his burger or ice cream. I never said anything about changing the trail. I suggested a simple road sign would at the very least identify the road when the hiker gets to it. I suggested it didn't have to say anything about WHL. Just a little 6''x18" plain wooden sign that would say Mahar Tote Rd. I suggested that once that was done WHL could request a small sign be added.
The real issue has nothing to do with a sign. It is about the perpetuation of the fiction of the "100 Mile Wilderness". It's the gem that is promoted up there as the hundred mile section where you could not get a resupply. As you mentioned in a previous post, there are signs that warn hikers at each end of the section. There have always been camps up there and always been roads and always been ways to resupply and when a snowmobile, hunting, fishing camp decided to make their services available to hikers the powers that be freaked out at the thought that the myth would be busted. Instead of 'fessin up and adjusting they have acted like spoiled little children caught with their hands in the cookie jar and saying they were just looking at the cookies.

bulldog49
05-01-2010, 15:55
So let me get this straight. Hikers need a sign to tell them the name of the road? And a sign to tell them where to get a hamburger? Whatever happened to self reliance? How come some hikers can find this place, and others can't? Could it be that some people need to improve their navigational skills? (insert lightbulb here) Enough with enabling hikers who can't find their own rear end - even with a map and compass. ;)

One thing is worth mentioning... At either end of the so-called 100 mile wilderness, you will find signs urging you to carry 10 days of supplies. Nobody NEEDS a hamburger or a pint of Ben & Jerrys in this stretch. Backpacking is supposed to teach you the difference between needs & wants. This lesson is clearly lost on some folks.

It ain't wilderness when you have a maintained blazed trail to follow. If you are so bothered by a sign why not take down all the shelters, privy's and treadways, not to mention the hundreds of "approved" signs already in existence. You don't have a valid point.

wcgornto
05-01-2010, 18:05
This whole debate seems like North Going Zax vs. South Going Zax.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cNbii3mbhM

Pedaling Fool
05-01-2010, 18:10
Iím not going to talk about the sign issue, b/c I just donít know enough about the history or the rules. However, since the wilderness issue pops up here and there, I just want to say, That ship has sailed! And it has nothing to do with WHL.

I went thru the 100-mile wilderness in 1981 and it was a wilderness then (well compared to what it is today). However, when I went thru in 2006 I was dismayed by all the tourist that have easy access to Gulf Hagas. They were all over the place. A bunch of loud mouth people in bright city clothes running around Ė I couldnít believe it, I guess I was expecting it to be like 1981.

This is not a case of "Since it happens on this section of trail, then itís ok on that section of trail". There is just no comparison between that gulf hagas tourist trap and WHL.

Just my .02 cents.


.

weary
05-01-2010, 18:45
AMC got no favoritism, at all.
Let me just expand a bit, I wrote this in a hurry because I had to leave in two minutes to attend an all-day land trust conference.

Within a few weeks of purchasing it's first 37,000 acres in the so called wilderness, AMC notified the MATC of its purchase and asked for a person it could talk to from MATC as it began it's planning.

Some months later, AMC sent us maps of possible trail crossings by new AMC trails it might want to build and asked our comment.

We designated Dave Field, MATC supervisior of trails, former ATC President, and former MATC president as the contact.

Months later, maybe a year or more, I forget, AMC asked formal approval of a new side trail to it's Little Lyford Pond Camps. It was approved, and MATC and AMC maintainers built the side trail and installed an official MATC sign.

More recently, as I recall, AMC, asked for another connection to the trail from the old Chairback Mountain camps, which it was rehabilitating, as an alternative to new construction, which it's Maine chapter had opposed.

I think that was also eventually approved after a team of MATC directors inspected the area in question and found no reason to be opposed.

AMC simply followed the standard process that most everyone follows that wants signs and links to lands owned by others.

I can't predict what MATC might have decided, had White House Landing followed these common sense procedures, but I suspect this whole controvsersy could have been avoided.

MATC is in no way a bureaucracy. It exists to provide as wild a trail as possible for hikers, to provide trail signs as needed, and to follow the rules of the National Park Service that owns most of the trail corridor in Maine.

The National Park Service has transferred most of its management rights to ATC, which in turn has transferred primary responsibility to MATC.

Weary

the goat
05-01-2010, 19:24
the matc is selective in businesses they support, kinda rediculous to have to play politics with something so simple as a wooden sign in the woods.

weary, your claim that the the road was "reconstructed" is disingenuous at best, the trail going to WHL is so rustic, it's very easy to miss.

WHL is one of my favorite stops on the trail! good food, beer, resupply, run by good people in a beautiful location......what more could one ask for in the middle of nowhere?

weary
05-01-2010, 19:28
Iím not going to talk about the sign issue, b/c I just donít know enough about the history or the rules. However, since the wilderness issue pops up here and there, I just want to say, That ship has sailed! And it has nothing to do with WHL.

I went thru the 100-mile wilderness in 1981 and it was a wilderness then (well compared to what it is today). However, when I went thru in 2006 I was dismayed by all the tourist that have easy access to Gulf Hagas. They were all over the place. A bunch of loud mouth people in bright city clothes running around Ė I couldnít believe it, I guess I was expecting it to be like 1981.

This is not a case of "Since it happens on this section of trail, then itís ok on that section of trail". There is just no comparison between that gulf hagas tourist trap and WHL.

Just my .02 cents.

.
I personally preferred Gult Hagas as it was in the late 60s when I first visited there. But the private landowners improved their roads, making public access easier. Had anyone asked when the AT trail corridor was laid out, I would have proposed a five mile buffer for the trail, not the mostly 1,000 foot wide corridor that the federal government actually purchased, despite a chorus of protests from some who objected to any federal buffer.

But these are decisions society makes in systems in which public views are listened to.

But the so called "wilderness" outside of the narrow Gulf Hagas area remains about as wild as the trail gets. Were it my decision the 100-miles would revert to genuine wilderness. Somehow, no agency has ever given me such control.

Though, I'm not sure how over use of Gulf Hagas has much to do with the dispute over illegal WHL signs.

Weary

Phreak
05-01-2010, 19:47
WHL is one of my favorite stops on the trail! good food, beer, resupply, run by good people in a beautiful location......what more could one ask for in the middle of nowhere?
I agree. I had a great time at WHL back in 2007. Definitely worth the side trip IMO.

camp mom
05-01-2010, 19:59
Let me just expand a bit, I wrote this in a hurry because I had to leave in two minutes to attend an all-day land trust conference.

Within a few weeks of purchasing it's first 37,000 acres in the so called wilderness, AMC notified the MATC of its purchase and asked for a person it could talk to from MATC as it began it's planning.

Some months later, AMC sent us maps of possible trail crossings by new AMC trails it might want to build and asked our comment.

We designated Dave Field, MATC supervisior of trails, former ATC President, and former MATC president as the contact.

Months later, maybe a year or more, I forget, AMC asked formal approval of a new side trail to it's Little Lyford Pond Camps. It was approved, and MATC and AMC maintainers built the side trail and installed an official MATC sign.

More recently, as I recall, AMC, asked for another connection to the trail from the old Chairback Mountain camps, which it was rehabilitating, as an alternative to new construction, which it's Maine chapter had opposed.

I think that was also eventually approved after a team of MATC directors inspected the area in question and found no reason to be opposed.

AMC simply followed the standard process that most everyone follows that wants signs and links to lands owned by others.

I can't predict what MATC might have decided, had White House Landing followed these common sense procedures, but I suspect this whole controvsersy could have been avoided.

MATC is in no way a bureaucracy. It exists to provide as wild a trail as possible for hikers, to provide trail signs as needed, and to follow the rules of the National Park Service that owns most of the trail corridor in Maine.

The National Park Service has transferred most of its management rights to ATC, which in turn has transferred primary responsibility to MATC.

Weary
thats funny when the pres.hiked in and said he would bring it up at the meeting,for a sign, it was turned down real fast,why is that,so 10 years later what makes you think things will change?

TJ aka Teej
05-01-2010, 20:04
AMC got no favoritism, at all.
That's the funniest thing you've ever typed.

weary
05-01-2010, 20:28
thats funny when the pres.hiked in and said he would bring it up at the meeting,for a sign, it was turned down real fast,why is that,so 10 years later what makes you think things will change?
Well, I don't remember all the details of MATC affairs that happened 10 years ago. But I vaguely remember board members being upset with the AT trail being posted with blatant signs, without first talking with the only on the ground representatives of the landowner.

We may have thought of you as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the Appalachian Trail.

Roland
05-01-2010, 20:30
In a roundabout way, this thread has provided the best advertising exposure White House Landing has enjoyed in years.

......and it didn't cost 'em a dime!

weary
05-01-2010, 20:38
That's the funniest thing you've ever typed.
What makes you think that, Teej?

I certainly, didn't post it as a joke. I was responding to speculation by a White Blaze member that MATC showed favoritism to AMC. If you have evidence that my comment was in error, say so. Don't just call it "the funniest thing " I've "ever typed," without explaining why you think so.

Your comment suggests you think I'm lying. So tell us your evidence.

Weary

camp mom
05-01-2010, 20:45
Camp Mom, when you contact the NPS, tell them you want to apply for an official side trail connecting to the AT in Maine.
that was the side rd. used to get to the logging camp in the 30's by a.t. hikers

camp mom
05-01-2010, 20:50
Well, I don't remember all the details of MATC affairs that happened 10 years ago. But I vaguely remember board members being upset with the AT trail being posted with blatant signs, without first talking with the only on the ground representatives of the landowner.

We may have thought of you as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the Appalachian Trail.
ok weary!!! this is the first time you are talking to me,thank you i thought you were ignoring us . nice to speak with you.

weary
05-01-2010, 20:57
the matc is selective in businesses they support, kinda rediculous to have to play politics with something so simple as a wooden sign in the woods.

weary, your claim that the the road was "reconstructed" is disingenuous at best, the trail going to WHL is so rustic, it's very easy to miss.....
I was just summarizing Camper Mom's comment. Reconstructed was perhaps too strong a verb. But I think she said the road had been cleared.

Your suggestion that we or anyone "played politics," over "something so simple as a sign in the woods" is simply not true. If you have evidence to the contrary, other than the claims of a business that may be interested in calling attention to its facility as a new season opens, please tell us what it is.

Multiple signs were placed on the trail contrary to the rules MATC is required to enforce. Our trail overseer for the area reported the violations. The MATC notified the National Park Service of the violation. A ranger from Washington showed up and the matter was cleared up until now when the owners reopened the controbersy.

Weary

camp mom
05-01-2010, 22:09
I was just summarizing Camper Mom's comment. Reconstructed was perhaps too strong a verb. But I think she said the road had been cleared.

Your suggestion that we or anyone "played politics," over "something so simple as a sign in the woods" is simply not true. If you have evidence to the contrary, other than the claims of a business that may be interested in calling attention to its facility as a new season opens, please tell us what it is.

Multiple signs were placed on the trail contrary to the rules MATC is required to enforce. Our trail overseer for the area reported the violations. The MATC notified the National Park Service of the violation. A ranger from Washington showed up and the matter was cleared up until now when the owners reopened the controbersy.

Weary
the tote rd. was never cleared, the side trail off from that1/4 mile off the a.t. where the sign you saw posted by shutterbug..which only has the 1 sign there now.we moved only dead trees that blew down(small ones) which most could be picked up and moved to the side. which we got by permission from the paper co.to have this path, has nothing to do with the matc. if you would only hike in to our boat dock things might be a lot clearer to you. as far as you think we are trying to call attention to a new season,you are so far from the truth.the reason this has come about is clearing up all the rumors that i have been reading to long.when i read about folks that won't stop because we cut an illegal trail.we are telling it the way it should be. we are going to submit a application for a sign,as we were never told that that was what we were suppose to do,as told by the pres. in 1999 that he was going to address that at a meeting and was shut down fast, what would you think if that happened to you. was never going to happen,right? this mutible sign crap. yes we did tack a business card(which rick st croix took a picture of and sent to the natl park sevice) it has taken me over 10 years to respond,as i have said before.thats not what i am on here for. i am tired of hearing about this. as i am sure everyone else is too. we will do what we have to do,with or without the blessings of the matc.

camp mom
05-01-2010, 22:22
well, i don't remember all the details of matc affairs that happened 10 years ago. But i vaguely remember board members being upset with the at trail being posted with blatant signs, without first talking with the only on the ground representatives of the landowner.

We may have thought of you as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the appalachian trail.

sign not signs

rcli4
05-01-2010, 22:48
Weary,
You have brought up the fact that it was the beginning of the new hiking season. This thread started on April 27. Most thru hikers going north have left and those going south won't leave for another 6 weeks. Unless you think thru hikers read this crap while on the trail, your arguement don't make much sense.

Clyde

white_russian
05-01-2010, 23:34
we will do what we have to do,with or without the blessings of the matc.
Pure contempt for the law. Keep screwing with the MATC and eventually they will make the case to the NPS to fine you instead of just having a little chat.

white_russian
05-01-2010, 23:46
Well, I don't remember all the details of MATC affairs that happened 10 years ago. But I vaguely remember board members being upset with the AT trail being posted with blatant signs, without first talking with the only on the ground representatives of the landowner.

We may have thought of you as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the Appalachian Trail.
Makes sense to me. Has WHL ever apologized for breaking the rules? My guess is no.

ed bell
05-02-2010, 00:02
Well, I don't remember all the details of MATC affairs that happened 10 years ago. But I vaguely remember board members being upset with the AT trail being posted with blatant signs, without first talking with the only on the ground representatives of the landowner.

We may have thought of you as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the Appalachian Trail.

Just a suggestion, but wouldn't it be smart at this stage of the saga to mark the tote road with a simple sign and be done with this? Saying that the MATC "may have thought of WHL as a rogue business upset with the whole idea of rules and regulations, and federal ownership of the land surrounding the Appalachian Trail" sounds about as political as you can get in the context of this entire issue. It makes it sound like a judgment call that the MATC thinks is germane to the issue has colored their decisions. I'm sure the MATC wouldn't want it characterized that way, but you did say it was a possibly in this case. Even if the owners of WHL have those views, it shouldn't create some sort of additional obstacle for simply identifying a tote road that, for all intensive purposes, has existed and has been used by folks on the AT since the early days. As someone has pointed out before, the sign isn't for WHL, it identifies the Mahar Tote Road, which hikers could utilize for any of a number of reasons. The MATC's work is for the AT and the folks who use it. Considering that the AMC received signs and NEW connector trails intersecting the AT in the "100 Mile" speaks volumes about the true nature of this issue. If there weren't any examples of new signs being added by the MATC in the "100 Mile" then there would be a reason to object and deny the sign outright. Evidently that is not the case.

If this entire issue is simply the fault of WHL for failing to fill out the proper paperwork, then it should be easily rectified and put to bed. Who knows, with a little goodwill and understanding from MATC and WHL, a partnership might be established that would advance the cause of the AT in ways not previously recognized. I know one thing, the discord and failure to get along sure isn't helping anyone at all.

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 00:33
This may have been mentioned before, I don't have time to look at the whole thread.

But having hiked the Maine section many, many times over the past 15 years, I seem to remember (and somewhere I have some lovely photographs) signs smack on the trail, with directional arrows, etc., that informed hikers of the existence and general direction of the Shaw place in Monson. These signs educated, informed, and delighted countless hikers.

It is inconceivable that MATC officialdom was unaware of these signs; as I said they were very visible and were there for years.

It seems obvious that MATC's pique over unauthorized trail signage in regards to telling folks about the existence and location of private businesses is selective.

Meaning some folks get a hatful of grief and some folks don't. For whatever reason.

In any case, enough already. This is a reputable business, run by good people, and there are hundreds and hundreds of folks who'll happily attest to this.

Whoever has the beef here, whether it's MATC, AMC, or anyone else, it's time to let it go. The argument that this is all about improper or illicit trail signage and the need to protect poor hikers by controlling such threatening stuff......well, this is a clearly false argument. WHL was evidently targeted and singled out for a long time, and it's long past time to move on.

ed bell
05-02-2010, 00:57
Makes sense to me. Has WHL ever apologized for breaking the rules? My guess is no. C'mon, it's not like these folks work together side by side or have dealings with each other on a regular basis. Who knows how this all played out through the 10+ year time frame and what, exactly, has been said. Apologized for breaking the rules? To whom would this be directed to and when would it have taken place? Not to mention what someone would apologize for. WHL ain't exactly right up the road from any meeting place and it's doubtful I would feel compelled to travel a fair distance to apologize for any actions involved with the issue here. The remedy here is to straighten it out and move on. If it's not that simple, then the public needs to know why. Am I missing something here?

mudhead
05-02-2010, 05:45
Somebody irritated somebody else, and being Maine, the irritation will go to the grave.

Small town mindset with a memory.

weary
05-02-2010, 10:43
Weary,
You have brought up the fact that it was the beginning of the new hiking season. This thread started on April 27. Most thru hikers going north have left and those going south won't leave for another 6 weeks. Unless you think thru hikers read this crap while on the trail, your arguement don't make much sense. Clyde
Well, I was just speculating. I'm not good at reading people's minds. But I suspect most southbounders are in the planning stages for their walks. If so, this might be a good time to remind them of the existent of WHL.

Weary

weary
05-02-2010, 11:16
This may have been mentioned before, I don't have time to look at the whole thread.

But having hiked the Maine section many, many times over the past 15 years, I seem to remember (and somewhere I have some lovely photographs) signs smack on the trail, with directional arrows, etc., that informed hikers of the existence and general direction of the Shaw place in Monson. These signs educated, informed, and delighted countless hikers.

It is inconceivable that MATC officialdom was unaware of these signs; as I said they were very visible and were there for years.

It seems obvious that MATC's pique over unauthorized trail signage in regards to telling folks about the existence and location of private businesses is selective.

Meaning some folks get a hatful of grief and some folks don't. For whatever reason.

In any case, enough already. This is a reputable business, run by good people, and there are hundreds and hundreds of folks who'll happily attest to this.

Whoever has the beef here, whether it's MATC, AMC, or anyone else, it's time to let it go. The argument that this is all about improper or illicit trail signage and the need to protect poor hikers by controlling such threatening stuff......well, this is a clearly false argument. WHL was evidently targeted and singled out for a long time, and it's long past time to move on.
Well I remember seeing a Shaw's sign before the National Park Service had bought the trail corridor and imposed national park regulations. The last time I looked the tree had grown around part of the sign, making it impossible to remove. But an MATC volunteer at some point painted out the visible words and arrows.

I can assure you that MATC tries to treat everyone as equally as possible for a club run by several hundred volunteers with different perceptions of what is allowed and what isn't.

We don't spend much time sitting around discussing such matters. We spend our time in the woods and hills, building bog bridges, constructing water bars, clearing blowdowns and brush, correcting trail erosion, and keeping the trail as wild as possible.

Each year volunteers devote 20,000 or more hours to such work. We moved on months ago. We haven't spent more than a couple of minutes, if that, discussing WHL since the visit to Maine by the National Park Service ranger. Our responsibility was to notify the park service of a possible violation. We did.

Weary

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 11:33
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.

blaneyge
05-02-2010, 11:50
i suppose the "actual goal" is to have folks read Fortune 500 and Yachting .............................

Roland
05-02-2010, 11:53
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.

Did the Sysco Foods distributor happen to deliver while you were there? ;)

There may be good reasons why the cost is higher there; inaccessibility, short season, limited market, etc. But whenever there is only one game in town, prices tend to be higher than when competition exists nearby. No one is forced to buy, or stay.

bulldog49
05-02-2010, 11:58
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.

If you don't like the price don't stay there. It is entirely possible to hike 100 miles without resupply.

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 12:03
Are the prices at WHL more expensive than at other A.T. hostels?

Yes, they are, but what Saint doesn't recognize is that this place is in the middle of nowhere.

I can think of all sorts of other Trail facilities that are minutes away from stores, supermarkets, Wal-Marts, etc. EVERYTHING at WHL has to brought from many miles away, and this is time-consuming and expensive; the reason you can get a Lipton dinner at a big Trail town supermarket for ninety-nine cents is because the chain buys them thousands at a time, gets a great deal on them, and has them delivered by truck. A tiny little place in the middle of nowhere buys Liptons a few dozen at a time, and has to send an employee away for hours at a time in order to go get them, using their own vehicle and at their own expense. What this means is that you're not gonna pay .99 for a Lipton out in the middle of nowhere; your cheeseburger's gonna cost more, your Ben and Jerry's will, and so on.

And if this is too much for some folks, well they can leave.

Oh, and the remark about divining what folks are all about based on the magazines they put out for their guests was simply snotty........the living room at Kincora Hostel is full of upscale magazines that are aimed at moneyed, well-heeled readers. Just because the room is full of Outside Magazines and National Geographics, does this mean Kincora is all about money?

Ridiculous.

Finally, Saint's remark about if you don't have to stay there, "think again"......well guess what? Plenty of folks DON'T stay there, for any number of reasons, some of which involve money and some of which don't.

Nobody is compelled to patronize any Trail business, but to voluntarily elect to do so, and to do so when one KNOWS what it's gonna cost, and then to publicly carp about the place later.......well sorry, this seems sort of childish to me.

You think a place is asking too much for goods and services?

Then don't patronize them.

This is not that difficult a concept.

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 12:04
Roland and Bulldog beat me to it.

And they are right.

kanga
05-02-2010, 12:14
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.
first, you didn't have to stay. period. you had a tent, right?
second, you can carry 10 days worth of food. my pack weighed 35 lbs going through there with 10 days of food.
third, $39 nothing included is EXACTLY what you would pay in franklin to stay at one of the motels.
fourth, it's not a hostel. it's a camp.
fifth, they have to drive well over an hour, alot of it down dirt road, to get to resupply. they most likely buy in bulk and stock up massively to make trips fewer. had they not made this effort, you would likely being paying more.
sixth, nobody beat you and took your money out of your pocket.
seventh, they have "yachting" and "fortune 500" cause our smelly hiker asses aren't the only people that stay at that camp. people come from far away to fish and hunt. people that do that sort of thing that don't live in the area usually have a decent amount of money.
you are one of those entitled thru-hikers my friends that live on the trail tell me about. it is not about you darlin. try to open your mind.

bulldog49
05-02-2010, 12:30
And by the way, that $39 per bight stay is a huge bargain compared to the $87 the AMC charges for hut stays in the Whites.

Jester2000
05-02-2010, 12:54
Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply . . .

"Have to" equals "need," but "need" doesn't equal "want." If a person hasn't figured that out by Maine, they're even more confused than I am.

WHL is a fine camp that welcomes hikers. As far as I'm aware, no charges of kidnapping have ever been filed against the proprietors.

And suspicions about "mid season" price raising might be allayed if one investigated publishing deadlines before deciding to post here -- it's not the guidebooks that are misinformed.

As for WHL -- good burgers, nice people, enjoyed the boat ride.

white_russian
05-02-2010, 13:07
And by the way, that $39 per bight stay is a huge bargain compared to the $87 the AMC charges for hut stays in the Whites.
Apples and oranges, that is a full service AMC rate. If you want an apples to apples comparison the self service non member rate for a hut is $35.

white_russian
05-02-2010, 13:11
C'mon, it's not like these folks work together side by side or have dealings with each other on a regular basis. Who knows how this all played out through the 10+ year time frame and what, exactly, has been said. Apologized for breaking the rules? To whom would this be directed to and when would it have taken place? Not to mention what someone would apologize for. WHL ain't exactly right up the road from any meeting place and it's doubtful I would feel compelled to travel a fair distance to apologize for any actions involved with the issue here. The remedy here is to straighten it out and move on. If it's not that simple, then the public needs to know why. Am I missing something here?
Who to direct it to? MATC board

But they are in the middle of nowhere? WHL goes into town for supplies and they could easily drop off a letter at the post office.

weary
05-02-2010, 13:20
Who to direct it to? MATC board

But they are in the middle of nowhere? WHL goes into town for supplies and they could easily drop off a letter at the post office.
Just a thought: If WHL doesn't like its status relative to MATC, perhaps it should address the matter to MATC, not exclusively to White Blaze.

Weary

white_russian
05-02-2010, 13:24
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.
When I was there I just came in for lunch. Once they found out that we were not there to stay the night the super friendly facade dropped. 'Camp dad' got grumpy and then neglected our burgers. Immediately after we finished eating they made us leave. I hear you Saint, it is all about the money for them. Of course any business is really all about the money, but I think WHL actes in a shortsigheted manner by being bipolar with regards to the immediate profitability of their relationships.

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 13:43
Are the prices at WHL more expensive than at other A.T. hostels?

Yes, they are, but what Saint doesn't recognize is that this place is in the middle of nowhere.

I can think of all sorts of other Trail facilities that are minutes away from stores, supermarkets, Wal-Marts, etc. EVERYTHING at WHL has to brought from many miles away, and this is time-consuming and expensive; the reason you can get a Lipton dinner at a big Trail town supermarket for ninety-nine cents is because the chain buys them thousands at a time, gets a great deal on them, and has them delivered by truck. A tiny little place in the middle of nowhere buys Liptons a few dozen at a time, and has to send an employee away for hours at a time in order to go get them, using their own vehicle and at their own expense. What this means is that you're not gonna pay .99 for a Lipton out in the middle of nowhere; your cheeseburger's gonna cost more, your Ben and Jerry's will, and so on.

And if this is too much for some folks, well they can leave.

Oh, and the remark about divining what folks are all about based on the magazines they put out for their guests was simply snotty........the living room at Kincora Hostel is full of upscale magazines that are aimed at moneyed, well-heeled readers. Just because the room is full of Outside Magazines and National Geographics, does this mean Kincora is all about money?

Ridiculous.

Finally, Saint's remark about if you don't have to stay there, "think again"......well guess what? Plenty of folks DON'T stay there, for any number of reasons, some of which involve money and some of which don't.

Nobody is compelled to patronize any Trail business, but to voluntarily elect to do so, and to do so when one KNOWS what it's gonna cost, and then to publicly carp about the place later.......well sorry, this seems sort of childish to me.

You think a place is asking too much for goods and services?

Then don't patronize them.

This is not that difficult a concept.

What I don't realize is that they're in the middle of nowhere? Yeah, because I didn't walk 2200 miles last year along the entire East Coast. I don't care if you have 12k posts and have thru hiked the trail 20 times, which is just about impossible based on 12k posts. I walked the entire trail, so I think I have a good basis on their location. Maybe it's because I have background in purchasing/selling to know that I personally could provide a much better price to the consumers, but that's just me.

Your post about comparing them to Kincora is comical, because the difference is that Kincora asks for a 4 dollar donation for the entire stay, laundry, transport, etc. They demand 39 dollars just for a stay, nothing else included.

I'm not going to have an internet arguement about who's right or wrong, but I'm free to put up the facts, which is what people wanted. If people don't like the facts, then go watch MSNBC and get told what you want to hear.

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 13:45
And by the way, that $39 per bight stay is a huge bargain compared to the $87 the AMC charges for hut stays in the Whites.


You're correct unless you decide to do some work there and can stay for free:confused: I guess if I was a day hiker/muppet, I'd have to pay the 87 dollars.

Pedaling Fool
05-02-2010, 13:48
Iím not going to talk about the sign issue, b/c I just donít know enough about the history or the rules. However, since the wilderness issue pops up here and there, I just want to say, That ship has sailed! And it has nothing to do with WHL.

.


...
Though, I'm not sure how over use of Gulf Hagas has much to do with the dispute over illegal WHL signs.

Weary
Weary, I said I was only addressing the "wilderness" issue. You're reading comprehension is...:D;)


...
But the so called "wilderness" outside of the narrow Gulf Hagas area remains about as wild as the trail gets. Were it my decision the 100-miles would revert to genuine wilderness. Somehow, no agency has ever given me such control.
Weary
As for this point, a big factor is that Maine is nearly 90% forested and a very low population of just over 1.3 million in an area of ~35,000 sq. miles, hell we got nearly that population here in Jacksonville in an area the size of just under 900 sq miles. And we still have a lot of open land.

Not taking anything away from MATC, but those facts makes it easy to have the most wilderness section of the AT.

Panzer1
05-02-2010, 13:54
When I was there I just came in for lunch. Once they found out that we were not there to stay the night the super friendly facade dropped. 'Camp dad' got grumpy and then neglected our burgers. Immediately after we finished eating they made us leave. I hear you Saint, it is all about the money for them. Of course any business is really all about the money, but I think WHL actes in a shortsigheted manner by being bipolar with regards to the immediate profitability of their relationships.

well how feasible do you think it would be to pack all the food you need to get through the 100 mile wilderness without stopping at WHL. Maybe more hikers should consider that option.

Panzer

Mags
05-02-2010, 14:18
well how feasible do you think it would be to pack all the food you need to get through the 100 mile wilderness without stopping at WHL. Maybe more hikers should consider that option.

Panzer


Very feasible. It is what most hikers used to do up until about 10 yrs ago.


Many AT hikers are up to 15-20 MPD by the time they hit Maine going NoBo. That's ~7 days of food. A little heavy, but not too bad.

If you are one of those odd people who like walking all day with a lighter pack (who me? ;) ), that's only 4-5 days of food.

This is not exactly a difficult logistic challenge either way.

Now, if you hike ~10 MPD, it does become more difficult....

ps. For any PCT veterans, does this discussion vaguely remind you of the whole VVR 'discussion' that crops up every now and then? (Remote hunting/fishing camp accessed by a boat ride with prices that reflect the challenges of stocking up a remote/not easily accessible (and seasonal) place?)

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 14:36
Saint:

While I believe you may have a background in purchasing and selling, I also believe you missed a crucial lesson in this regard:

If one isn't interested in purchasing in what someone else is selling, then there's a simple expedient: Don't purchase it.

The fact that your extensive background in business practices would have enabled you to provide a better price to consumers is irrelevant. You knew what the prices were at this establishment, you asked these people to provide you with these goods and services, and you paid what they asked ......and now, months later, you're bitching about it. It's unseemly.

Oh, and your use of the word "demanded" is a bit over the top. When I go to my local coffee shop, my cup of French Roast costs me $2.15 plus tax. I know this before I order it. Down the street, my New York Times costs two dollars. A Snickers bar costs me ninety-nine cents. At Five-Olde, the beer I like is three bucks. None of these places "demand" this money, Saint. This is simply what they charge for these particular goods, and there's no secret about it. If I think I can get these things elsewhere at better prices, I'm more than welcome to go do so.

WHL, like any other place, charges specific amounts for specific goods and services. If you didn't want to pay for these things, then as others have noted, you could have moved on. But nobody "demanded" anything from you; they merely told you what specific things cost and gave you the choice of accepting the proposition or resisting it. You accepted it, no? Truly, if you're unhappy with this transaction, then it's not the seller's fault, it's the buyer's. Nobody "demanded" your presence there. :D

Blue Jay
05-02-2010, 14:42
Maybe it's because I have background in purchasing/selling to know that I personally could provide a much better price to the consumers, but that's just me.

This is the same argument Goldman Sachs and AIG used to destroy us. It does not help your credability.

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 14:51
You're correct unless you decide to do some work there and can stay for free:confused: I guess if I was a day hiker/muppet, I'd have to pay the 87 dollars.

your incessant whining is very telling :eek:

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 15:05
This is the same argument Goldman Sachs and AIG used to destroy us. It does not help your credability.


Alright, cool.

Basic principles on purchasing. Buy at a lower price, offer your customers a more affordable price and sell more product. Is that simple enough for you?

I notice all the people with lots of posts gaining up on the people with smaller post counts. Interesting fact to observe. Since we aren't on here all day posting, we aren't credible sources, is that thing ticket? If I was Lone Wolf, Jack Tarlin, or any of the other guys with thousands of posts, would you believe me then? I like the Elitism that infected this site. It's interesting to see the way people on HF and BPL view the people on here. I used to not see it, but now understand between this thread and my previous FS thread.

Why can't people give their experiences and feelings about their visit there? Someone asked for it, so we should be able to tell about our experiences. If you don't agree, then just say what you're experience was there. Don't be Keith Olbermann and instead of talk about the news, you bash on the other people reporting the news. People trying to discredit other people's feelings won't work. This isn't a math problem where there's one clear answer.

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 15:13
http://pdbb.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/whine.jpg

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 15:19
Saint:

Please try and lighten up.

Nobody's "bashing" you here, they're merely disagreeing with you.

However, your repeated slams at WHL could certainly be viewed as "bashing," no?

And the fact that some of your critics are frequent posters here is irrelevant. I'm sure there are people who disagree with you who do NOT have thousands or even hundreds of posts here on WB.

Oh, and your comment about folks who are here all day posting was also over the top and out of line. I just walked around 230 miles from Springer and have spent very little time on the computer in recent weeks. How much hiking have YOU done recently as opposed to spending time on the computer? :-?

For a guy who's complaining about getting bashed or getting ganged up on, Saint, you sure manage to do your own share of complaining about other folks.

Lastly, you mentioned that you seem to enjoy other Trail Forums more than this one, and you're certainly welcome to spend your time at the places you feel better about.

Just as you had the opportunity to patronize and spend time at WHL, or you could have chosen to spend your time elsewhere.

Get it now?

earlyriser26
05-02-2010, 15:31
Basic principles of purchasing? Lower the price and sell more? I think the idea of any business is not to "sell more" but to maximize profit. Maybe Starbucks could sell more at 50 cents, but they would earn less. I will be hiking by WHL in the fall and may or maynot stop by, but I still have a free will. Any service that is available to hikers is a good service. You have a choice.

TD55
05-02-2010, 15:32
And also.......that place where the sign should be and isn't is the exact same spot that is missing the blue blaze spot to indicate a trail leading to a water source which happans to be a lake where you can soak your feet and/or swim without going to the other side of the lake to visit the camp. Even if there isn't a road sign, there should be a blue blaze water source sign there.

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 15:34
Good luck guys. I merely am pointing out my experience there as other people have and of course, the regulars all go against the new people. It makes no difference to me. I just don't understand why someone can't say how he feels about a place and not have people bash him for his experience.

I hike pretty regularly Jack, infact, I probably get out about 30 miles a week on a regular basis. I wasn't picking on you directly, just pointing out that you had a high post count. Besides, comparing my post count to yours isn't relevant as I have 113 posts and you have over 12,000.

I hope your stay goes better at WHL then mine did to the future potential customers.

TD55
05-02-2010, 15:37
Oh ya, one more thing since ya all are argueing about market prices and how to operate a business and all that crapola, a little clue as to why you shouldn't talk about stuff you don't know anything about. In order to get to the camp the camp has to send a boat across the lake to pick you up and than has to return you to the other side.

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 15:40
Basic principles of purchasing? Lower the price and sell more? I think the idea of any business is not to "sell more" but to maximize profit. Maybe Starbucks could sell more at 50 cents, but they would earn less. I will be hiking by WHL in the fall and may or maynot stop by, but I still have a free will. Any service that is available to hikers is a good service. You have a choice.


Last time I checked this buying/selling practice made Walmart the most success business in the history of the world.


Let the other people tell their experiences there as I'm done discussing it.

weary
05-02-2010, 15:49
....Maine is nearly 90% forested and a very low population of just over 1.3 million in an area of ~35,000 sq. miles, hell we got nearly that population here in Jacksonville in an area the size of just under 900 sq miles. And we still have a lot of open land.

Not taking anything away from MATC, but those facts makes it easy to have the most wilderness section of the AT.
The situation is far more complex than you realize. There's been a revolution in Maine land ownership. Those of us who prefer wildness to development worry because the paper companies that once used the forest to grow trees, have mostly sold their lands to developers, and land speculators, at prices well above those that would make continued growing of trees profitable.

It's only the purchases by AMC and The Nature Conservancy, and the Quimby Foundation that provide hope for continued wildness for the 100-miles. I'm appalled, sometimes, at how difficult it seems to be to get some White Blazers to understand this basic economic fact.

BTW, I'm not sure who the landlord of WHL is. They are in an area largely controlled by The Nature Conservancy. I suspect that the future of the business is better assured under Nature Conservancy ownership, than by land speculation ownership. Investors dream of using such beautiful lakefront lands to maximize profits, which requires developments with far more impact on the environment than a simple hiker hostel that caters to hunters in the fall, and snowmobilers in the winter.

Weary

white_russian
05-02-2010, 16:02
And also.......that place where the sign should be and isn't is the exact same spot that is missing the blue blaze spot to indicate a trail leading to a water source which happans to be a lake where you can soak your feet and/or swim without going to the other side of the lake to visit the camp. Even if there isn't a road sign, there should be a blue blaze water source sign there.
Grasping at straws huh?

Tumbledown Dick Stream is like a tenth of a mile northbound from this intersection and the trail crosses over it. I don't know what the distance is if you just went directly to the lake using the tote road instead of WHL but I am guessing more than half a mile. It doesn't make sense to mark a blue blazed trail that long when it is in an area that has such an abundance of water sources directly on the trail.

Try harder next time.

Johnny Thunder
05-02-2010, 16:03
I wasn't picking on you directly, just pointing out that you had a high post count. Besides, comparing my post count to yours isn't relevant as I have 113 posts and you have over 12,000.




Last time I checked this buying/selling practice made Walmart the most success business in the history of the world.


Umm...really? Seriously White House Landing vs Walmart? What?

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 16:09
Umm...really? Seriously White House Landing vs Walmart? What?

xactly... saint wants to see a white house landing every 0.5 miles for the length of the trail.... hahahaha

Phreak
05-02-2010, 16:46
I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.
I stayed at WHL in 2007 and my night in the bunkhouse included a hot shower and all-you-can-eat breakfast. And camp mom generously offered to take my cell phone over to her home and charge it for me.

I also enjoyed taking a kayak out on the lake. My experience was well worth every dollar I spent there.

white_russian
05-02-2010, 17:14
I stayed at WHL in 2007 and my night in the bunkhouse included a hot shower and all-you-can-eat breakfast. And camp mom generously offered to take my cell phone over to her home and charge it for me.

I also enjoyed taking a kayak out on the lake. My experience was well worth every dollar I spent there.

The stories that people tell about WHL swing greatly. You are reporting a very good experience and I have read reports in the past of WHL charging extra for things that were supposed to be included like bed linens. It begs the question if they are incorporating price discrimination into their business practices.

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 17:21
Begging the question, Russian? :D

Well, I've got one for you. More than 300 posts ago you got your panties wadded up cuz this place allegedly served you a "bland" burger.

And you're STILL boo-hooing over it.

This begs the question: Don't you have more important things to bitch about? :D

Pretty obviously not.

white_russian
05-02-2010, 17:27
Begging the question, Russian? :D

Well, I've got one for you. More than 300 posts ago you got your panties wadded up cuz this place allegedly served you a "bland" burger.

And you're STILL boo-hooing over it.

This begs the question: Don't you have more important things to bitch about? :D

Pretty obviously not.
Hey we could all be doing something better, yourself included. There are starving children in Africa and you have managed to waste enough of your life on this board to post 12K times.

The_Saint
05-02-2010, 17:28
Umm...really? Seriously White House Landing vs Walmart? What?


Ummm try reading the entire thread before you jump to a conclusion about something that wasn't said or implied.

The point is that WHL could run their business more efficiently, which in turn would allow more people to stay. If they lowered their prices, more people would stay and less people would complain.

I see most people can't grasp this as a business practice, which is why so many small businesses fail. Being in the sales field, I see small businesses go under all the time due to not knowing successfully how to manage margin, turns and reorders. If you don't think this applies to WHL, or any other "business" on the AT or elsewhere, then don't assume you know anything about retail businesses.:welcome

Enjoy the E-Fight! I'm not going to become one of the famed cyberhikers on this site. Let's all go outside.

Jack Tarlin
05-02-2010, 17:32
Russian: At least I don't waste my life screeching about a cheeseburger I ate years ago.

You really need to stop while you're behind. And if you're REALLY concerned about those starving children overseas, maybe you should cut back on all those bland 10 dollar cheeseburgers. That money adds up. :D

TD55
05-02-2010, 17:32
grasping at straws huh?

.

am not ......

TD55
05-02-2010, 17:39
10 dollar cheeseburgers. :D

All this misinformation from people who don't know what they are talking about if flabbergasting. What the heck is the current price of the burger? I'm ok with $10.00 as long as the boat ride is still free;)

ed bell
05-02-2010, 17:42
So, if you are only gonna stay to eat lunch you get a free boat ride to go along with it?

TD55
05-02-2010, 17:51
They have no way of knowing when you blow the air horn for a ride that you are only going to have a burger and catch a boat ride back to the other side of the lake.

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 18:08
Ummm try reading the entire thread before you jump to a conclusion about something that wasn't said or implied.

The point is that WHL could run their business more efficiently, which in turn would allow more people to stay. If they lowered their prices, more people would stay and less people would complain.

I see most people can't grasp this as a business practice, which is why so many small businesses fail. Being in the sales field, I see small businesses go under all the time due to not knowing successfully how to manage margin, turns and reorders. If you don't think this applies to WHL, or any other "business" on the AT or elsewhere, then don't assume you know anything about retail businesses.:welcome

Enjoy the E-Fight! I'm not going to become one of the famed cyberhikers on this site. Let's all go outside.

you know nothing about doing business on the AT... and from what you are saying here I would never trust anything you had to say about running my small business. :)

thank you for saying you won't hang on here... we will believe it when we see it. :D

Phreak
05-02-2010, 19:17
So, if you are only gonna stay to eat lunch you get a free boat ride to go along with it?
Yes.......

earlyriser26
05-02-2010, 19:25
Last time I checked this buying/selling practice made Walmart the most success business in the history of the world.


Let the other people tell their experiences there as I'm done discussing it.

Walmart, as all businesses, are profit optimizers (not just looking for a larger number of transactions). WHL seems to be employing the proper strategy to maximize profit. It is not a charity. I don't know where you recieved your business / accounting / finance degree from, but your economic argument is flawed.

stumpknocker
05-02-2010, 19:35
I wasn't going to post anything else on this thread, but now that it's turned towards the ripoffs that come across the lake to pick you up when you blow the air horn, I just had to. :)

I'm not sure what the burger costs...I don't care. I eat junk on Trail, so when I get a chance for a real meal, I take it. Usually a steak in town, but those darn ripoffs at White House Landing only have homemade burgers and pizzas, sodas and beer.

When I'm walking north on the Trail, I"ll walk into the 100 Mile Wilderness with enough food for three days. I've done the 100 Mile Wilderness eight times. Eight times I've stopped in to visit those ripoffs that operate White House Landing, even though they just have that over priced bland one pound homemade burger loaded with onions, pickles and homegrown tomatoes.

Maybe those ripoffs charge me $8.00 or $9.00 or $10.00....I don't know. Wait a minute. I'm pretty sure I pay $9.00 for a HALF pound hamburger right here in town. Well, maybe those ripoffs at White House Landing aren't ripping me off after all.

I always resupply while I'm there. They seem to know what kind of trail food hikers like to carry out and seem to have plenty to go around. If I'm walking north that year, I'll resupply for an overnight to Abol Bridge Store. If I'm walking south, I'll resupply for three days to Monson.

The resupply food that I eat on my first night out from White House Landing is always a homemade pizza. I ask that dang ripoff at White House Landing if she would make a pizza for me to pack out, and it's always there when I get ready to leave, wrapped up nicely to carry in my pack.

I sleep in the Lakeshore Cabin so I am right next to the lake. That hot shower feels especially good. Those pesky loons just won't be quiet. Nothing worse than falling asleep having to listen to those buggers. Danged place always has clean sheets in it.

I have to do my own laundry in the laundry tub they provide and hang my clothes to dry on an outside clothes line. Don't those ripoffs know I have standards??

I just don't understand why anyone has to put up with all the coffee you can drink in the morning before you leave....and an ayce breakfast. Don't those ripoffs know I want to order from a menu??

Am I getting this complainin' thing down yet?? This is fun. :)

Some of my most memorable days on a thru hike are days spent at White House Landing...eating that one pound hamburger for lunch, maybe a pizza for dinner, and taking the canoe out in the lake to spot moose along the shore and watch Katahdin fade away into the dusk.

I usually tip according to service and friendliness....usually 20%. I once left a one penny tip on the credit card receipt at a restaurant in California, just so the owner of the restaurant would notice how I felt about the poor service I got from his employee. I only did that once....this waitress should not have been dealing with the public.

I usually leave a 30% tip at White House Landing. Danged ripoffs! :mad:

One last thing....that lodge is always filthy.........well, maybe not always filthy. Hummm, actually, it's ALWAYS been spotless....but that's just one more thing to complain about!!

stumpknocker
05-02-2010, 19:58
I wasn't going to post anything else on this thread, but now that it's turned towards the ripoffs that come across the lake to pick you up when you blow the air horn, I just had to. :)

I'm not sure what the burger costs...I don't care. I eat junk on Trail, so when I get a chance for a real meal, I take it. Usually a steak in town, but those darn ripoffs at White House Landing only have homemade burgers and pizzas, sodas and beer.

When I'm walking north on the Trail, I"ll walk into the 100 Mile Wilderness with enough food for three days. I've done the 100 Mile Wilderness eight times. Eight times I've stopped in to visit those ripoffs that operate White House Landing, even though they just have that over priced bland one pound homemade burger loaded with onions, pickles and homegrown tomatoes.

Maybe those ripoffs charge me $8.00 or $9.00 or $10.00....I don't know. Wait a minute. I'm pretty sure I pay $9.00 for a HALF pound hamburger right here in town. Well, maybe those ripoffs at White House Landing aren't ripping me off after all.

I always resupply while I'm there. They seem to know what kind of trail food hikers like to carry out and seem to have plenty to go around. If I'm walking north that year, I'll resupply for an overnight to Abol Bridge Store. If I'm walking south, I'll resupply for three days to Monson.

The resupply food that I eat on my first night out from White House Landing is always a homemade pizza. I ask that dang ripoff at White House Landing if she would make a pizza for me to pack out, and it's always there when I get ready to leave, wrapped up nicely to carry in my pack.

I sleep in the Lakeshore Cabin so I am right next to the lake. That hot shower feels especially good. Those pesky loons just won't be quiet. Nothing worse than falling asleep having to listen to those buggers. Danged place always has clean sheets in it.

I have to do my own laundry in the laundry tub they provide and hang my clothes to dry on an outside clothes line. Don't those ripoffs know I have standards??

I just don't understand why anyone has to put up with all the coffee you can drink in the morning before you leave....and an ayce breakfast. Don't those ripoffs know I want to order from a menu??

Am I getting this complainin' thing down yet?? This is fun. :)

Some of my most memorable days on a thru hike are days spent at White House Landing...eating that one pound hamburger for lunch, maybe a pizza for dinner, and taking the canoe out in the lake to spot moose along the shore and watch Katahdin fade away into the dusk.

I usually tip according to service and friendliness....usually 20%. I once left a one penny tip on the credit card receipt at a restaurant in California, just so the owner of the restaurant would notice how I felt about the poor service I got from his employee. I only did that once....this waitress should not have been dealing with the public.

I usually leave a 30% tip at White House Landing. Danged ripoffs! :mad:

One last thing....that lodge is always filthy.........well, maybe not always filthy. Hummm, actually, it's ALWAYS been spotless....but that's just one more thing to complain about!!


Dang Stumpknocker....get a life. You've got almost 350 posts on your counter since 2004!! Things like that matters to some people, ya know.

weary
05-02-2010, 20:23
Just a thought: The quality of the service is beside the point. Camp Mom complained about discrimination from MATC. I've yet to hear one word of fact that supports that claim -- a lot of supposition, yes. A lot of non related chatter, yes. But absolutely nothing of a factual nature.

We've heard complaints about MATC being inconsistent. Probably we are at times. We are just a bunch of volunteers who spend our time working on the trail, not arguing about subtle matters of national park regulations.

But most of us on the executive committee know the broard outlines of what is allowed, and what people need to do to gain a favorable recommendation from MATC to those that eventually make such decisions.

The fact is that unlike AMC, Baxter Park, and others over the years, WHL has yet to apply for anything. They have been notified about violations of the federal regulations as we understand them. They have at times denied posting signs. At times WHL has claimed others must keep posting the business signs that MATC maintainers have removed.

Whatever. Eventually, we notified NPS enforcers. They showed, up and as far as I know no maintainer has since complained of WHL violations.

These are business people. Pretty good business people judging from the many that have praised their facilities and service. But that does not relieve them of the responsibility to act responsibly when dealing with land and facilities they do not own and have no special rights to.

Weary

Skidsteer
05-02-2010, 20:29
How many tote roads are in the 100 mile wilderness? How many are signed? How many are not signed?

kanga
05-02-2010, 20:31
Just a thought: The quality of the service is beside the point. Camp Mom complained about discrimination from MATC. I've yet to hear one word of fact that supports that claim -- a lot of supposition, yes. A lot of non related chatter, yes. But absolutely nothing of a factual nature.

We've heard complaints about MATC being inconsistent. Probably we are at times. We are just a bunch of volunteers who spend our time working on the trail, not arguing about subtle matters of national park regulations.

But most of us on the executive committee know the broard outlines of what is allowed, and what people need to do to gain a favorable recommendation from MATC to those that eventually make such decisions.

The fact is that unlike AMC, Baxter Park, and others over the years, WHL has yet to apply for anything. They have been notified about violations of the federal regulations as we understand them. They have at times denied posting signs. At times WHL has claimed others must keep posting the business signs that MATC maintainers have removed.

Whatever. Eventually, we notified NPS enforcers. They showed, up and as far as I know no maintainer has since complained of WHL violations.

These are business people. Pretty good business people judging from the many that have praised their facilities and service. But that does not relieve them of the responsibility to act responsibly when dealing with land and facilities they do not own and have no special rights to.

Weary
bunch a volunteers is not the term i'd use.

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 20:31
Walmart, as all businesses, are profit optimizers (not just looking for a larger number of transactions). WHL seems to be employing the proper strategy to maximize profit. It is not a charity. I don't know where you recieved your business / accounting / finance degree from, but your economic argument is flawed.

seriously flawed...

earlyriser26
05-02-2010, 20:55
I think that the issue of signs and be better taken care of if WHL puts in an "official" request for a sign marking the tote road to the MATC. If the request is reasonable, just a simple sign marking the road at WHL expense, and it is still turned down then I would say the MATC is at fault. Until then, we are just continuing an old pissing contest that does hikers no good. I have some very, very, old experience with the MATC (having had a section of the trail I maintained there in the 70's). Unless things have changed greatly, which they may have, following the proper channels usuall gets good results. Until then, no one wins from this situation.

camp mom
05-02-2010, 21:12
WHL could be one of the best hostels on the trail with some help. I stayed there late last fall on my finish of THRU and was appauled by the amount of money it cost to be there. The books were incorrect on pricing, which made me think the pricing was raised mid season, or the books were misinformed.

Before you say, you didn't have to stay, think again.

They intentionally set it up so that if you want food or resupply, you almost have to stay in order to get any food.

That being said, it's set on a beautiful lake and the grounds are very nice. The pizza is delicious, I'd recommend that if you want to pay out over 80 dollars to stay including food, drinks, etc.

I had to pay 39 dollars for one night, nothing included. That's twice to three times what almost any other hostel on the trail.

The fact that the magazines in the bunkhouse were "Fortune 500" and "Yachting" made me realize the actual goal.
excuse me? $39 gets you a bed a pillow case a shower an all you can eat b fast and the boat ride 1mile back to the trail head duuhh!!! by the way hikers left those mags like we have them kicking around.

stumpknocker
05-02-2010, 21:31
Just a thought: The quality of the service is beside the point. Camp Mom complained about discrimination from MATC. I've yet to hear one word of fact that supports that claim -- a lot of supposition, yes. A lot of non related chatter, yes. But absolutely nothing of a factual nature.

We've heard complaints about MATC being inconsistent. Probably we are at times. We are just a bunch of volunteers who spend our time working on the trail, not arguing about subtle matters of national park regulations.

Weary

From your own words, Weary, on post #191 page 10 of this thread;

"AS near as I can tell, most MATC board members seem quite happy with the status quo, which was achieved as the result of the park service visit, and, I suspect, would not welcome me bringing up the issue again. I doubt if my motion would get a second. I'm sure it wouldn't pass."

Sounds to me like someone on the "inside" of MATC knows what the outcome would be in advance.

camp mom
05-02-2010, 21:32
I wasn't going to post anything else on this thread, but now that it's turned towards the ripoffs that come across the lake to pick you up when you blow the air horn, I just had to. :)

I'm not sure what the burger costs...I don't care. I eat junk on Trail, so when I get a chance for a real meal, I take it. Usually a steak in town, but those darn ripoffs at White House Landing only have homemade burgers and pizzas, sodas and beer.

When I'm walking north on the Trail, I"ll walk into the 100 Mile Wilderness with enough food for three days. I've done the 100 Mile Wilderness eight times. Eight times I've stopped in to visit those ripoffs that operate White House Landing, even though they just have that over priced bland one pound homemade burger loaded with onions, pickles and homegrown tomatoes.

Maybe those ripoffs charge me $8.00 or $9.00 or $10.00....I don't know. Wait a minute. I'm pretty sure I pay $9.00 for a HALF pound hamburger right here in town. Well, maybe those ripoffs at White House Landing aren't ripping me off after all.

I always resupply while I'm there. They seem to know what kind of trail food hikers like to carry out and seem to have plenty to go around. If I'm walking north that year, I'll resupply for an overnight to Abol Bridge Store. If I'm walking south, I'll resupply for three days to Monson.

The resupply food that I eat on my first night out from White House Landing is always a homemade pizza. I ask that dang ripoff at White House Landing if she would make a pizza for me to pack out, and it's always there when I get ready to leave, wrapped up nicely to carry in my pack.

I sleep in the Lakeshore Cabin so I am right next to the lake. That hot shower feels especially good. Those pesky loons just won't be quiet. Nothing worse than falling asleep having to listen to those buggers. Danged place always has clean sheets in it.

I have to do my own laundry in the laundry tub they provide and hang my clothes to dry on an outside clothes line. Don't those ripoffs know I have standards??

I just don't understand why anyone has to put up with all the coffee you can drink in the morning before you leave....and an ayce breakfast. Don't those ripoffs know I want to order from a menu??

Am I getting this complainin' thing down yet?? This is fun. :)

Some of my most memorable days on a thru hike are days spent at White House Landing...eating that one pound hamburger for lunch, maybe a pizza for dinner, and taking the canoe out in the lake to spot moose along the shore and watch Katahdin fade away into the dusk.

I usually tip according to service and friendliness....usually 20%. I once left a one penny tip on the credit card receipt at a restaurant in California, just so the owner of the restaurant would notice how I felt about the poor service I got from his employee. I only did that once....this waitress should not have been dealing with the public.

I usually leave a 30% tip at White House Landing. Danged ripoffs! :mad:

One last thing....that lodge is always filthy.........well, maybe not always filthy. Hummm, actually, it's ALWAYS been spotless....but that's just one more thing to complain about!!

thank you stumpy, i would like this post to be the official end of this thread. enough said! but that wont happen

the goat
05-02-2010, 22:07
From your own words, Weary, on post #191 page 10 of this thread;

"AS near as I can tell, most MATC board members seem quite happy with the status quo, which was achieved as the result of the park service visit, and, I suspect, would not welcome me bringing up the issue again. I doubt if my motion would get a second. I'm sure it wouldn't pass."

Sounds to me like someone on the "inside" of MATC knows what the outcome would be in advance.

exactly!

i'm sure even weary (if he thought a/b it really hard) could see the silly politics at play here.

TJ aka Teej
05-02-2010, 22:09
You know what usually happens on the Trail? If hiker A sees hiker B doing something like burning trash in the pit or passing up a chance to tank up hiker A usually offers helpful advice. "Hey, here's the right way to do this."
What happened here was MATC A found a sign they didn't like and started a 10 year vendetta against WHL B. And now that the suppression of trade and two faced actions regarding AMC have come to light, "it's not fair" for people criticize MATC's actions.
MATC A should've gone to WHL B ten years ago and offered helpful advice. "Hey, here's the right way to do this."
I have no sympathy for how MATC looks on this issue today.

the goat
05-02-2010, 22:16
You know what usually happens on the Trail? If hiker A sees hiker B doing something like burning trash in the pit or passing up a chance to tank up hiker A usually offers helpful advice. "Hey, here's the right way to do this."
What happened here was MATC A found a sign they didn't like and started a 10 year vendetta against WHL B. And now that the suppression of trade and two faced actions regarding AMC have come to light, "it's not fair" for people criticize MATC's actions.
MATC A should've gone to WHL B ten years ago and offered helpful advice. "Hey, here's the right way to do this."
I have no sympathy for how MATC looks on this issue today.

well said teej.

weary
05-02-2010, 23:05
How many tote roads are in the 100 mile wilderness? How many are signed? How many are not signed?

The so called 100-mile-wilderness is a label, not a place. It has no east or west boundaries, just south and north, Maine Highway 15, north of Monson, and Abol Bridge (more accurately, the intersection of the trail with the Golden Road just west of Abol Bridge.)

Probably a dozen active tote roads cross the trail, maybe more. There are many more road crossings that are no longer maintained, such as the long abandoned road to Mahar Landing. The last time I walked the area, I don't remember seeing signs marking any of them. I suspect that is still true, but I don't know for sure.

Thanks for asking a factual question. I wish I had a more definitive answer. But based on much of the recent discussion, not many care about facts anyway. All we've heard lately is the belief that MATC is the villian, even though no one has offered a single fact to support that belief. It's all been totally unsupported supposition, and speculation, apparently based on the the belief that a business that makes a good hamburger could do no wrong, and that any group that would approve anything for AMC couldn't possibly do anything right.

Weary

weary
05-02-2010, 23:15
....What happened here was MATC A found a sign they didn't like and started a 10 year vendetta against WHL B. And now that the suppression of trade and two faced actions regarding AMC have come to light, "it's not fair" for people criticize MATC's actions. ....
Your supposition is unsupported by any facts, other than your obvious vendatta against AMC.

Weary

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 23:16
The so called 100-mile-wilderness is a label, not a place. It has no east or west boundaries, just south and north, Maine Highway 15, north of Monson, and Abol Bridge (more accurately, the intersection of the trail with the Golden Road just west of Abol Bridge.)

Probably a dozen active tote roads cross the trail, maybe more. There are many more road crossings that are no longer maintained, such as the long abandoned road to Mahar Landing. The last time I walked the area, I don't remember seeing signs marking any of them. I suspect that is still true, but I don't know for sure.

Thanks for asking a factual question. I wish I had a more definitive answer. But based on much of the recent discussion, not many care about facts anyway. All we've heard lately is the belief that MATC is the villian, even though no one has offered a single fact to support that belief. It's all been totally unsupported supposition, and speculation, apparently based on the the belief that a business that makes a good hamburger could do no wrong, and that any group that would approve anything for AMC couldn't possibly do anything right.

Weary

how about this fact - no one at MATC has taken care of a decade long dispute that a quick visit, a little diplomacy, and a little paper work could have resolved simply and easily. instead, we have MATC appearing as the villain since they are obviously offended by a simple sign that may break up the appearance that there is a "100-mile wilderness".

Tin Man
05-02-2010, 23:17
how about this fact - no one at MATC has taken care of a decade long dispute that a quick visit, a little diplomacy, and a little paper work could have resolved simply and easily. instead, we have MATC appearing as the villain since they are obviously offended by a simple sign that may break up the appearance that there is a "100-mile wilderness".... when in FACT, there is not

weary
05-02-2010, 23:43
From your own words, Weary, on post #191 page 10 of this thread;

"AS near as I can tell, most MATC board members seem quite happy with the status quo, which was achieved as the result of the park service visit, and, I suspect, would not welcome me bringing up the issue again. I doubt if my motion would get a second. I'm sure it wouldn't pass."

Sounds to me like someone on the "inside" of MATC knows what the outcome would be in advance.
Has it occurred to you that we spend most of our time working on trails. It's not a matter of "someone on the inside of MATC" knowing "what the outcome would be in advance." That's just another silly conspiracy theory.

After numerous reports of violations and many discussions by the MATC board, the issue has been turned over to the National Park Service and apparently been resolved. I doubt if many MATC directors would favor reopening the discussion without some solid proposals and commitments from WHL. But this is just my personal opinion. Those who think otherwise can go to www.matc.org and query other directors if they wish.

Weary

weary
05-03-2010, 00:00
how about this fact - no one at MATC has taken care of a decade long dispute that a quick visit, a little diplomacy, and a little paper work could have resolved simply and easily. instead, we have MATC appearing as the villain since they are obviously offended by a simple sign that may break up the appearance that there is a "100-mile wilderness".
Your alleged "facts" are not "facts." When our attempts to get WHL to do the responsible thing failed, we turned the matter over to the National Park Service, ending the controversy as far as I'm concerned. It never was a matter of wilderness or the appearance of wilderness. Commercial businesses require a special use permit before erecting signs within the trail corridor. MATC is required report violations to the National Park Service, which we did. Problem solved.

Weary

stumpknocker
05-03-2010, 00:05
thank you stumpy, i would like this post to be the official end of this thread. enough said! but that wont happen

I hope you have another great year. I hope you get your wish and this thread ends real soon.

I'll be leaving in 22 days for a 4 to 5 month walk, but I'm leaving this thread for good now.....I promise!! :)

Appalachian Tater
05-03-2010, 00:07
Wow, people really know how to make ***** of themselves, especially attacking Weary who has done more for the AT than almost anyone else who posts here AND over a longer period of time. That is simply shameful.

Not quite equally ridiculous but certainly more petty is complaining about those delicious WHL burgers and pizzas. I remember telling Linda that she made her burgers the same way I do but hers were better.

Also silly is comparing Kincora to WHL since Kincora is practically a charity operation for hikers whereas WHL is a business supporting a family. Ask Bob Peoples what he spends a year out of his own pocket running the place and what he would have to charge to break even much less support himself. The donations probably don't cover the gas for trips into town so hikers can eat and shop.

Yes, the signs and blue paint going into WHL are obnoxious and that should be remedied, no doubt, but the camp itself is nice, well-maintained, and not expensive for what you get, including a round-trip boat ride. The place is completely off the grid, no electricity or other municipal services and it is my understanding that the road in and out can be impassable at times and that the entire place is maintained by the Wares who do everything. Some people act as if it would be better if WHL didn't exist and that seems ridiculous as well.

So my suggestion would be for some of the MATC volunteers to help the Wares get a simple directional sign up and maybe do something to turn the blue blazes into blazes instead of paint spills in the area where they are allowed and then maybe everyone would be happy. The signs and blue splatters are out of character with the well-maintained grounds and buildings of WHL and give people a bad first impression as well as detract from the "wilderness" experience.

Panzer1
05-03-2010, 01:16
hay Weary, I like the time of your last post "00:00'' :D

Panzer

Tin Man
05-03-2010, 03:19
Your alleged "facts" are not "facts." When our attempts to get WHL to do the responsible thing failed, we turned the matter over to the National Park Service, ending the controversy as far as I'm concerned. It never was a matter of wilderness or the appearance of wilderness. Commercial businesses require a special use permit before erecting signs within the trail corridor. MATC is required report violations to the National Park Service, which we did. Problem solved.

Weary

Problem solved??? Pass the buck is "problem solved"? If someone at MATC spent as much time and effort working with WHL trying to get to "problem solved" as you have here, the "problem" just might be "solved"

camp mom
05-03-2010, 07:43
I hope you have another great year. I hope you get your wish and this thread ends real soon.

I'll be leaving in 22 days for a 4 to 5 month walk, but I'm leaving this thread for good now.....I promise!! :)
you have a great year too!!! are you ever in fl?.can e-mail or call:)we are not far if you are. happy trails stumpknocker, thanks again for all your support .

berkshirebirder
05-03-2010, 09:26
Fill in the blanks:


If someone at ______ spent as much time and effort working with _____ trying to get the problem solved as you have here, the problem just might be solved

I don't quite see how a business operating as a hostel and selling food doesn't grasp the concept of getting a permit. The burden is on the business owner, not on the agency that issues permits.

That said, if the road has had a name historically, it seems reasonable to maintain a ROAD SIGN at this location.

camp mom
05-03-2010, 10:54
Your alleged "facts" are not "facts." When our attempts to get WHL to do the responsible thing failed, we turned the matter over to the National Park Service, ending the controversy as far as I'm concerned. It never was a matter of wilderness or the appearance of wilderness. Commercial businesses require a special use permit before erecting signs within the trail corridor. MATC is required report violations to the National Park Service, which we did. Problem solved.

Weary
you don't get it there were no attempts,not one person from the matc notified us on any of these issues,so where are you coming up with ALL these attempts.who is at fault here,we talked to the pres. did he say that there was paperwork to file NO ,did he say he would recomend that there should be a sign made..YES. did it happen NO. so there seems to be alot of people telling alot of stories here,it could of been over if they actually contacted us.i am not sure why i have to keep explaining this point. i sure could use a white russian,with just a splash of milk....no hold the milk!!!

camp mom
05-03-2010, 10:59
you don't get it there were no attempts,not one person from the matc notified us on any of these issues,so where are you coming up with ALL these attempts.who is at fault here,we talked to the pres. did he say that there was paperwork to file NO ,did he say he would recomend that there should be a sign made..YES. did it happen NO. so there seems to be alot of people telling alot of stories here,it could of been over if they actually contacted us.i am not sure why i have to keep explaining this point. i sure could use a white russian,with just a splash of milk....no hold the milk!!!
and why didn't the man from the natl park service tell us anything,he never said that there was any paper work to sign ,or we would of by now. you can't get any higher up then him,so whats wrong with this whole picture....????? you have his # call and ask.

camp mom
05-03-2010, 11:01
and why didn't the man from the natl park service tell us anything,he never said that there was any paper work to sign ,or we would of by now. you can't get any higher up then him,so whats wrong with this whole picture....????? you have his # call and ask.
all he did was cover a blue dot(one) that could be seen from the trail,with camo. paint.

Tin Man
05-03-2010, 11:06
you don't get it there were no attempts,not one person from the matc notified us on any of these issues,so where are you coming up with ALL these attempts.who is at fault here,we talked to the pres. did he say that there was paperwork to file NO ,did he say he would recomend that there should be a sign made..YES. did it happen NO. so there seems to be alot of people telling alot of stories here,it could of been over if they actually contacted us.i am not sure why i have to keep explaining this point. i sure could use a white russian,with just a splash of milk....no hold the milk!!!


and why didn't the man from the natl park service tell us anything,he never said that there was any paper work to sign ,or we would of by now. you can't get any higher up then him,so whats wrong with this whole picture....????? you have his # call and ask.


all he did was cover a blue dot(one) that could be seen from the trail,with camo. paint.

Thanks for sharing the FACTS. MATC and NPS dropped the ball - FACT!

white_russian
05-03-2010, 11:15
you don't get it there were no attempts,not one person from the matc notified us on any of these issues,so where are you coming up with ALL these attempts.who is at fault here,we talked to the pres. did he say that there was paperwork to file NO ,did he say he would recomend that there should be a sign made..YES. did it happen NO. so there seems to be alot of people telling alot of stories here,it could of been over if they actually contacted us.i am not sure why i have to keep explaining this point. i sure could use a white russian,with just a splash of milk....no hold the milk!!!
Once again you are crying over someone not doing your job for you. You want them to contact you, but have you ever contacted them? Have you ever gone to a MATC meeting to discuss this with them directly?

white_russian
05-03-2010, 11:23
I don't quite see how a business operating as a hostel and selling food doesn't grasp the concept of getting a permit. The burden is on the business owner, not on the agency that issues permits.
If they can't figure this out it makes me wonder what other permits they are lacking. Do they have a permit to serve alcohol?

Heater
05-04-2010, 02:55
Well, the hiking public could rip down AMC signs and replace them with "I http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-love014.gif WHL" signs.

Just sayin'

rickb
05-04-2010, 06:53
I just checked out your web site and enjoyed it.

For what its worth, given that your facility is hard for some to find, why not add more detail to the "how to find us" section. Right now it just is says:


To reach our dock from the trail, turn off the AT at the Mahar Tote Road. You will find the road south of the Nahmakanta Stream Campsite and north of the Potaywadjo Lean-To (on your map, it is shown as a dotted line going down to the stream).
While your description might be sufficient for a hungry thru hiker, other folks obvioulsy need more help. Or if they don't need help, more detailed directions would give a less experienced vacation hiker confidence that they will be able to find your facility when making his trip plans.

Perhaps some photos, distances and other reference points and a detailed section of topo map.

My personal feeling on signs is that "less is more", but obviously each situation is unique. If you are getting 850 AT hikers a season these days, your own unique situation is much different now than it was 10 years ago and may speak to the appropriateness of signage.

Similarly the AMC situation is unique in the Gulf Haggis area. Thoughtful people know that the area is a magnet for day hikers and opens to a network of maintained trails and private land open to the public 365 day a year. It is a similar but different situation.

Perhaps its best to leave to another thread, but I do think it is worth considering why some people (like me) think that it is a good thing to keep signage (and in particular commercial signage) to a minimum in the back country. Not because we have a monopoly on the truth, but because little things add up.

In this thread, for example, we have been reminded that the last stretch of AT is not really a wilderness. And, that because it is not a wilderness it is appropriate to allow more of this kind of thing than we would otherwise.

I understand that perspective, but it really rubs me the wrong way. I think it important to preserve the wild spirit of that stretch of the AT (and others) wherever possible. Even from what seem to relatively trivial intrusions. In part, because each one makes the next more acceptable.

camp mom
05-04-2010, 07:27
I just checked out your web site and enjoyed it.

For what its worth, given that your facility is hard for some to find, why not add more detail to the "how to find us" section. Right now it just is says:

While your description might be sufficient for a hungry thru hiker, other folks obvioulsy need more help. Or if they don't need help, more detailed directions would give a less experienced vacation hiker confidence that they will be able to find your facility when making his trip plans.

Perhaps some photos, distances and other reference points and a detailed section of topo map.

My personal feeling on signs is that "less is more", but obviously each situation is unique. If you are getting 850 AT hikers a season these days, your own unique situation is much different now than it was 10 years ago and may speak to the appropriateness of signage.

Similarly the AMC situation is unique in the Gulf Haggis area. Thoughtful people know that the area is a magnet for day hikers and opens to a network of maintained trails and private land open to the public 365 day a year. It is a similar but different situation.

Perhaps its best to leave to another thread, but I do think it is worth considering why some people (like me) think that it is a good thing to keep signage (and in particular commercial signage) to a minimum in the back country. Not because we have a monopoly on the truth, but because little things add up.

In this thread, for example, we have been reminded that the last stretch of AT is not really a wilderness. And, that because it is not a wilderness it is appropriate to allow more of this kind of thing than we would otherwise.

I understand that perspective, but it really rubs me the wrong way. I think it important to preserve the wild spirit of that stretch of the AT (and others) wherever possible. Even from what seem to relatively trivial intrusions. In part, because each one makes the next more acceptable.
thank you,we agree

weary
05-04-2010, 11:05
As I recall, when I first hiked that section of the AT several decades ago, there was a shelter at Mahar Landing, with an MATC sign on the trail reading "Mahar Landing." Souvenir hunters scrounge such signs from time to time. But I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is still there. I'll have to go look.

Weary

warraghiyagey
05-04-2010, 11:09
The Mahar Landing sign is still there. . . it's the only sign I've ever seen on the AT there. . .

Tin Man
05-04-2010, 11:16
Can't wait to reach ME again soon and see what all the fuss is about. :)

sheepdog
05-04-2010, 15:10
Hey Tin Man


what happinin dude????

Migrating Bird
05-04-2010, 19:49
Camp Mom:

I hope to be SOBO and passing through (thru?) around the first week of June, can't wait to see your place and looking forward some of that home style cooking. Thanks in advance.

weary
05-04-2010, 20:47
Can't wait to reach ME again soon and see what all the fuss is about. :)
Just a thought, Tinman. It might have been wiser to have seen "what all the fuss is about," before criticizing a hardworking and super dedicated maintaining club again and again, for causing the fuss.

weary
05-04-2010, 21:00
The Mahar Landing sign is still there. . . it's the only sign I've ever seen on the AT there. . .
Well as Camp Mom has told us, at least one other sign has been posted on the AT there, one "blaze orange snowmobile" sign, or something like that, I think she said.

In addition to one blaze orange sign, MATC maintainers have also reported a large brown and white painted sign, which from their description looked something like the brown and white sign picture on the WHL website.

warraghiyagey
05-04-2010, 21:01
That sign is nowhere near the trail. . . your sources are incorrect. . . .

Tin Man
05-04-2010, 21:05
Just a thought, Tinman. It might have been wiser to have seen "what all the fuss is about," before criticizing a hardworking and super dedicated maintaining club again and again, for causing the fuss.

Just a thought, Weary. It might be wiser to stop making excuses and get this resolved. You have spent more energy on this thread than it should take to resolve this simple issues. It's just a sign.

Tin Man
05-04-2010, 21:08
Hey Tin Man


what happinin dude????

who? what? :)

weary
05-04-2010, 21:12
That sign is nowhere near the trail. . . your sources are incorrect. . . .I know it's not near the trail now. You and others have already told us that. I think the question may be where it used to be. Maybe Camp Mom can help us with that question.

warraghiyagey
05-04-2010, 21:30
I know it's not near the trail now. You and others have already told us that. I think the question may be where it used to be. Maybe Camp Mom can help us with that question.
It's never been near the trail in the last 4 years. . . I've made that point abundantly clear. . . your AMC minions know where the trail to WHL is and they've had to walk the same distance as everyone who wants to go there to finally see the sign. . . about 400 yards down an old tote road. . .
Well off the AT. . . and they know it. . . . the AMC is very much the antagonist with regard to this topic. . . . . . . . sad that you don't seem to know it. . . .

camp mom
05-04-2010, 21:37
I know it's not near the trail now. You and others have already told us that. I think the question may be where it used to be. Maybe Camp Mom can help us with that question.
that sign that shutterbug sent in has always been 1/4 mile down the mahar tote rd. we only have the 1 sign there now and has been only that one for a few years now. i had done a nice smaller one for there,but it went missing,we do not believe it was any maintainers.we had a small sign a.t. size ,size of the mahar sign. at the trail head,that was taken down,and removed,never found it. then i made a nice painting on a piece of slate of a picture of a whitehouse near a lake with the american flag,no wording. i placed it next to the crossing on the tote rd. so hikers would know that was the turn. it was taken. thats when we started putting up a business card on the tree. and they also was taken down. but that sign in the photo was never seen from the trail.those are the only signs we have ever had.we did put up a business card.thats what the hikers were seeing to make the turn. thanks weary for asking.

camp mom
05-04-2010, 21:40
Camp Mom:

I hope to be SOBO and passing through (thru?) around the first week of June, can't wait to see your place and looking forward some of that home style cooking. Thanks in advance.
have a great hike:)

camp mom
05-04-2010, 21:41
As I recall, when I first hiked that section of the AT several decades ago, there was a shelter at Mahar Landing, with an MATC sign on the trail reading "Mahar Landing." Souvenir hunters scrounge such signs from time to time. But I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is still there. I'll have to go look.

Weary
there has never been a shelter but there is a campsite.

vonfrick
05-04-2010, 23:05
Well I remember seeing a Shaw's sign before the National Park Service had bought the trail corridor and imposed national park regulations. The last time I looked the tree had grown around part of the sign, making it impossible to remove. But an MATC volunteer at some point painted out the visible words and arrows.

Weary

that sign was soooooo old, the tree was long dead and down. we took a chainsaw to it and saved the section with the sign for down at the hostel.

and whatever paint they used, if they did in fact paint it, didn't take.


Has it occurred to you that we spend most of our time working on trails.
Weary

can you maybe do something about the area north of west carry pond??? it's like that planet yoda lives on and i had to abandon my x-wing fighter :)

weary
05-05-2010, 10:18
....
can you maybe do something about the area north of west carry pond??? it's like that planet yoda lives on and i had to abandon my x-wing fighter :)
I can't -- at least not directly. But if you open the MATC website:

www.matc.org

You'll find someone who possibly can help. These days, I mostly put out the MATC newsletter, and repond from time to time to the ire of some on White Blaze.

Weary

weary
05-05-2010, 10:31
. . . . the AMC is very much the antagonist with regard to this topic. . . . . . . . sad that you don't seem to know it. . . .
I guess that may be because no one has posted a single fact that suggests AMC has ever had anything to do with White House Landing. Attached (if I did it right, that is) is a photo of the new AMC sign that so many have talked about.

Weary

kanga
05-05-2010, 10:38
weary, your entire contribution here has been nothing but contradictory. you continuously malign whl acting as if you are speaking for the matc and continuously speak up in defence of the matc saying they have done nothing wrong. yet, when asked to help resolve the issue, it is quite clear from your responses that you do not have the first clue how you would go about doing that with the matc. you are obviously not as connected with the matc as you like to portray yourself as. as well, you have made multiple comments about sign placement, shelter location, and the like and at every turn you have been corrected by those that routinely hike that section.
i think it's just about time for you to be quiet.

WalkinHome
05-05-2010, 11:15
that sign was soooooo old, the tree was long dead and down. we took a chainsaw to it and saved the section with the sign for down at the hostel.

and whatever paint they used, if they did in fact paint it, didn't take.



can you maybe do something about the area north of west carry pond??? it's like that planet yoda lives on and i had to abandon my x-wing fighter :)

Hi Von, When did you take the tree down?

WalkinHome
05-05-2010, 11:24
weary, your entire contribution here has been nothing but contradictory. you continuously malign whl acting as if you are speaking for the matc and continuously speak up in defence of the matc saying they have done nothing wrong. yet, when asked to help resolve the issue, it is quite clear from your responses that you do not have the first clue how you would go about doing that with the matc. you are obviously not as connected with the matc as you like to portray yourself as. as well, you have made multiple comments about sign placement, shelter location, and the like and at every turn you have been corrected by those that routinely hike that section.
i think it's just about time for you to be quiet.

I cannot tell you how much we appreciate your advice regarding the MATC and the Trail in Maine. Your reach is long from Georgia and your experience at such a young age is very impressive. We are here doing the job and you are there running your mouth. Get a clue as folks like Weary have done more for the AT in Maine (many thousands of hours through the years) than you will ever know or be able to duplicate. He does not deserve scorn from the likes of you. You and others may have a problem or disagree with how the MATC operates. That can and should be discussed without the rancor you put forth. Rant over.

kanga
05-05-2010, 11:26
I cannot tell you how much we appreciate your advice regarding the MATC and the Trail in Maine. Your reach is long from Georgia and your experience at such a young age is very impressive. We are here doing the job and you are there running your mouth. Get a clue as folks like Weary have done more for the AT in Maine (many thousands of hours through the years) than you will ever know or be able to duplicate. He does not deserve scorn from the likes of you. You and others may have a problem or disagree with how the MATC operates. That can and should be discussed without the rancor you put forth. Rant over.
your reading comprehension is stellar. i am not advising for matc. nor have i ever maligned what weary has done for the at in maine. what i have issue with is weary running his mouth about stuff he is obviously not current on. it is poor information. but thank you for your viewpoint.

rcli4
05-05-2010, 14:49
I'm willing to bet we can stop this arguement for ever and solve the problem. If everyone that has posted to this thread agrees to send 10 bucks to MATC when they put up a sign, I'll bet it won't be long before a shinney new sign is up. Weary, you get it done, I'll send ya 50 bucks. You don't, you aint gettin squat. Any more takers? Put up or shut up. AMC gets what they want because of money. So can we.

Clyde

berkshirebirder
05-05-2010, 15:03
Wasn't this issue resolved some time ago by the parties involved (WHL and the National Park Service)?

rcli4
05-05-2010, 15:23
Wasn't this issue resolved some time ago by the parties involved (WHL and the National Park Service)?

got 10 bucks? you can get an answer

WalkinHome
05-05-2010, 15:28
I'm willing to bet we can stop this arguement for ever and solve the problem. If everyone that has posted to this thread agrees to send 10 bucks to MATC when they put up a sign, I'll bet it won't be long before a shinney new sign is up. Weary, you get it done, I'll send ya 50 bucks. You don't, you aint gettin squat. Any more takers? Put up or shut up. AMC gets what they want because of money. So can we.

Clyde

ROFLMAO Good one!! I don't know where all of you conspiracy theorists get all this stuff but it sure is entertaining. Read carefully: The large AMC (as opposed to the Maine Chapter which is very small and does not have the deep pockets the big boys have) went through the procedure NPS oultined for a trail and sign. They got it. A picture of the sign has been posted and does not mention any commercial entity (boo hoo that must hurt like heck LOL). Baxter State Park is, as we write, in the process of going through the same process for a relo. The MATC does not have ANY financial interest in the AMC. We do share goals and trail work with the Maine Chapter and many folks are members of both.

MATC has been accused of:

Wanting to take the land of WHL (early post). Did you know that when hikers were whining about WHL changing the character of the so called "wilderness" Dave Field (former chair of your other love to hate organization ATC and former president of MATC) wrote an editorial in ATN stating the thought that the presence of WHL was just a return to history as "camps' were all along the original AT? Now that is one heck of an opening gambit/tactic to set WHL to take over their land! Did you know that when the NPS bought the land the that is now the corridor in Maine that we did not have to use eminent domain? That is due to the effort of Dave Field again - full disclosure, there were some landowners that REQUESTED a procedure know as "friendly condemnation" for which landowners got some tax benefits from and we agreed.

Being elitist. Early in the formation of the MATC this was definitely tru as most of the MATC was made up of folks from away that travelled from the D.C. area by train up here to do trail work. That was because many of the early trail workers were from the PATC but that changed as the club grew with Mainers. Elitist? How much does it cost to be a member of the MATC? $15.00 a year. WOW, surely priced high enough to keep out the rif-raf!! LOL.

MATC is trying to promote/preserve the so called "wilderness" by forcing hostels like WHL out of business. Huh? We promote and work for the responsible use of the AT in Maine. PERIOD! Where in the world have you ever seen advertisements from the MATC trying to pump up usuage? We are actually always in the opposite mode by trying to minimize impact by the large numbers of hikers. Can you say Grafton Loop Trail here in Maine by Balpate? Why do you think we jumped right on that project (along with the AMC I might add)? It relieves some pressure OFF of the AT by offering a nice alternative loop trail.

MATC should go to WHL to see what they would like to do. Huh? again. Since when is up to the MATC (or any other maintaining club) to reach out to businesses along the trail to see if they are all warm and fuzzy. We are not hard to reach or apply to. The address is on our website MATC.org. Can you read? Can you write? For crying out loud, instead of crying out loud and whining send a letter stating your position. Don't assume it will not get acted upon and don't prejudge the actions of the MATC IF you ever do such a large undertaking.

MATC applies the "sign" issue unevenly. That most likely has some truth to it but I will say that it is benign neglect. Did you know that when this issue first came up the MATC was in a battle to keep Saddleback Ski Area from putting ski infrastructure across the trail? At that time we had other things on our plate and it seems that we always have larger issues to deal with as we are continually being tasked with more and more jobs from the ATC and NPS which we try our best to fulfill. This WHL stuff reminds me of flypoop in pepper.

I am in the process of trying to get the documentation from Mark Simpson and the ranger that visited WHL to find out what transpired. I know that the ranger has some photos of some pretty ugly painting of trees, if memory serves.

I am also told that there IS a sign pointing to Mahar Landing. If so what more does any hiker need. All of the How To Guides give directions from that point.

If I missed some conspiracy theories I apologize. Maybe another post when I see more ludicrous accusations. Oh, and regardless of what is posted here about the MATC, we will work hard to keep it open and safe and protected for all of you and your friends and relatives to use when they are ready.

HAPPY 75TH ANNIVERSARY TO THE MATC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

weary
05-05-2010, 15:45
I'm willing to bet we can stop this arguement for ever and solve the problem. If everyone that has posted to this thread agrees to send 10 bucks to MATC when they put up a sign, I'll bet it won't be long before a shinney new sign is up. Weary, you get it done, I'll send ya 50 bucks. You don't, you aint gettin squat. Any more takers? Put up or shut up. AMC gets what they want because of money. So can we.

Clyde
I suggested to Walkin Home an hour or more ago about asking the overseer of the Katahdin District to replace the existing Mahar Landing sign and adding the words "Pemadumcook Lake 0.3 miles."

Your suggestion that we were bribed by AMC and can be bribed by you makes it impossible for me to carry out that idea. I'm not going to do anything that would contribute to the spread your cynical beliefs among the gullible on White Blaze.

Weary

Alligator
05-05-2010, 16:03
Everyone take a breather.