View Full Version : Bad behavior
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 10:42
The subject of hikers mis-behaving has been coming up here lately. Today, for example, there was a post about some hikers acting obnoxiously at a shelter in Virginia. A few days ago there was a thread about a hiker who repeatedly made obscene entries in Trail registers.
Here's my questions to Whiteblaze visitors:
*Do you approve of public discussion of this sort of thing?
*Is Whiteblaze a good place to discuss such things?
*Do you approve of people being publicly named/shamed?
*Or do you think that when this happens, we only get one version of
events and there's a possibility that folks might have their names and
reputations tarnished unfairly or even wrongly?
Personally, I think there's nothing remotely wrong about publicly naming these folks; I think it serves at least three good purposes:
*It might make folks straighten up a bit when they realize that lots of people
think they're acting like idiots.
*It might discourage other folks from acting similarly.
*It'll tell hikers, trail angels, hostel-keepers, motel owners, etc. about folks
they may well want nothing to do with.
Opinions, please. Oh, and if any moderators have thoughts/opinions on this, I think that would be interesting to read, too.
berkshirebirder
05-06-2010, 11:10
I didn't catch the thread you refer to, Jack.
Normally, I believe "evildoers" should suffer consequences for their actions. BUT...and this is a big but...
Just as we feel it's unfair for someone to badmouth a business without substantial evidence of wrongdoing, I think there's a good chance that those who leave an obscene message in shelter registers would use a fake name or sign someone else's name (yours might be a name a lot of hikers would know).
Chances are such a person would cause other, more reportable problems on the Trail.
Reporting that this is happening in a certain area might be useful, but I'd avoid attaching a name.
BobTheBuilder
05-06-2010, 11:10
I agree. It seems that an increase in anonymity leads to a decrease in civilty, and vice-versa. It doesn't bother me that I would have to watch my manners on the trail, even if I was having a bad day, or risk my rudeness might be broadcast far and wide.
I know that when I was on the trail, somebody got me confused with somebody else on the trail, and it created a few awkward moments. I heard some interesting stories about things I had done; they weren't that bad, just not me. Luckily I was with other hikers who were like " that couldn't have been him , he was with us hundreds of miles from there". This got cleared up; the real "culprit" was identified, and like I said wasn't a big deal anyway. I've also seen this happen to others. I don't think people should be encouraged to talk about/name others in an online forum. There is just too much room for error, abuse, and inaccuracy. People can get names confused, exaggerate, or just not like someone. The world has always had misbehavers, and probably always will. People should just hike and hike their own hike. There's no need to make this a "gossip column". With all the opinions on here, I'm glad I hadn't heard of Whiteblaze before my AT hike; it might have made me think twice. When someone does something particularly creepy, it often gets on here anyway. I think if somebody is a genuine threat, then it's a good idea. However that person should not be named unless positively identified, but the authoritys can handle that.
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 11:12
When good people stand around and do nothing the bad behavior will continue and possibly become worse, thereby wrecking things for everybody.
Alligator
05-06-2010, 11:16
It's often a whole lot of unsubstantiated, one-sided gossip. The alleged offenders are not able to present their side of the story skewing the actual events tremendously.
You might be getting trolled as well:-?.
berkshirebirder
05-06-2010, 11:20
When good people stand around and do nothing the bad behavior will continue and possibly become worse --Gray Blazer
True, Gray Blazer. But it might be better if those personally affected by the behavior complain to local authorities rather than Whiteblaze, where page after page of secondhand commentary will accomplish...WHAT? if anything.
Jerks are notoriously blind to criticism--in fact, it often makes them worse.
There's also the possibility that they name the wrong person. I was a victim of that on the PCT, when one hiker heard a story about a bad motel guest, and thought it was our room (it wasn't, it was two rooms over). But that didn't stop her from spreading the incorrect rumor that we had done bad by the motel, even after she had been told otherwise.
NorthCountryWoods
05-06-2010, 11:21
IF, the reporting of bad behavior could be confined to details and facts, then it would most certainly have positive results.
However, most anonymous reporting involves an increased level of hyperbole and would ultimately have negative results.
By "shaming publically" do you mean post their real name or trail name?
To me, it's just another way for the sub-culture to self-regulates itself. I say let the banter continue!
Of course if you believe in entropy then you subscribe to the notion that all systems "move from a state of order to a state of disorder". The trick is determining where on the continuum the system is....
Lone Wolf
05-06-2010, 11:26
lots of bad behavior at The Place this year. almost daily i have to remind someone of the rules. almost always 20something year old thru hikers
thing is, hiking is the ultimate freedom. there are no rules in the woods except the rules that one wants to live by. there is no law, so even if there were rules then there would be no-one to enforce those rules. if a person wants to express what someone else views as bad behavior well, then they have the right to do that. if someone else doesn't like it well, then they have the right to find another piece of the woods to call their own for the moment. everyone has similarities and differences with other people which causes some to become friends and others to become enemies. on the trail, clicks develop quickly, and some of those groups of folks take it upon themselves to impose their particular brand of life on others. don't like it? move on. it is as simple as that. as far as business owners affected by bad behavior, they cater to a specific group of people. some of them just don't act like others. hikers in general are a different breed of people. business owners along the trail should know this and take it into account, and the the revenue generated by hikers helps to sustain those business owners lives. it is a risk that they take, and they receive a monatary gain in return.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 11:40
"There is no law" in the woods?
What planet are you from? :D
Try burning down a bridge or defacing a shelter or intentionally starting a forest fire.
There are all sorts of rules and laws that apply in the woods and any hiker who thinks otherwise may be in for a big surprise.
There are also codes of socially acceptable behavior that nearly everyone recognizes and acknowledges and it is expected that these codes and "rules" will be obeyed as well, especially when it comes to respecting other people.
I don't buy the 'hikers are just a different breed of people.'
I also don't know why everyone else has to bear the responsibility of packing up and leaving when obnoxious a** show up.
There are many degrees of trail misbehavior. For example, one could start with snoring and go all the way to murder.
The more severe the misbehavior, the more information that could be posted would be important including naming names, in my opinion.
Let's take theft. If someone is allegedly stealing packs I would want to know the who, when, and where of it all, even if the accounting contained mistakes and/or prejudice. It would be important for me and I would be grateful for the information.
For minor misbehavior I feel that it is okay to gossip but I would want to bear in mind that there are two sides to every story. Therefore I would not name names if I were the one posting. I recognize that it is fun to chat but being responsible on the Internet is important too. I sure hope that I never slander anyone in any situation.
"There is no law" in the woods?
What planet are you from? :D
Try burning down a bridge or defacing a shelter or intentionally starting a forest fire.
There are all sorts of rules and laws that apply in the woods and any hiker who thinks otherwise may be in for a big surprise.
There are also codes of socially acceptable behavior that nearly everyone recognizes and acknowledges and it is expected that these codes and "rules" will be obeyed as well, especially when it comes to respecting other people.
well, unfortunately Jack, some people don't really care what other people think is acceptable behavior. i don't think that dropping cigarette ashes all over other peoples food on the grill, or taking bites out of pork chops and throwing them back on for other folks to eat later is acceptabe behavior either, but it has never stopped you has it? there are laws in society, but they cannot be enforced on the trail. there is no regular patrol of law enforcement officers except on defined wildlife management areas, so, if you see someone breaking the law, who are you gonna tell? then who is that law man gonna write a ticket to or arrest, the long haired bearded guy with the fake name? and as far as my planet goes, that would be the one in northeast georgia that is full of rednecks, guns, and overly large four wheel drive trucks.
I don't buy the 'hikers are just a different breed of people.'
I also don't know why everyone else has to bear the responsibility of packing up and leaving when obnoxious a** show up.
what else are you gonna do, box with all of them to put them in their place?
what else are you gonna do, box with all of them to put them in their place?
That wasn't exactily my point.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 12:21
Ah, General, what a charming fellow you are.
And your last post is instructive, especially when we think about the possibility of people telling stories about other hikers that are just plain exaggerated or false.
For example, the delightful story about pork chops and cigarette ashes in the food is untrue from beginning to end; just for starters the story allegedly took place last April in Franklin, and I haven't smoked a cigarette in almost three years.
But thanks for making a good point: People should be leery of repeating stories they don't have all the facts on, and if they insist on telling tall tales about other folks, they should realize how childish and petty they look when they don't get their story right.
Have a nice day.
Lastly, General, laws get enforced on the Trail all the time. A few weeks ago a whole lot of hikers got cited and almost arrested for drinking in the Fontana Hilton, despite at least three signs telling them not to do so. So if you actually think that there aren't quite a few areas of the Trail that aren't regularly patrolled, well this is merely something else you're wrong about.
Ah, General, what a charming fellow you are.
And your last post is instructive, especially when we think about the possibility of people telling stories about other hikers that are just plain exaggerated or false.
For example, the delightful story about pork chops and cigarette ashes in the food is untrue from beginning to end; just for starters the story allegedly took place last April in Franklin, and I haven't smoked a cigarette in almost three years.
But thanks for making a good point: People should be leery of repeating stories they don't have all the facts on, and if they insist on telling tall tales about other folks, they should realize how childish and petty they look when they don't get their story right.
yep, the wrong facts don't serve any good purpose. Too easy for that to happen.
Have a nice day.
Lastly, General, laws get enforced on the Trail all the time. A few weeks ago a whole lot of hikers got cited and almost arrested for drinking in the Fontana Hilton, despite at least three signs telling them not to do so. So if you actually think that there aren't quite a few areas of the Trail that aren't regularly patrolled, well this is merely something else you're wrong about.
There are authorities out there, and I think often, the trail is somewhat self-policing. Jack's post summed it up, no good reason to name people online.
I seem to have inserted part of my comment into Jack's. Where it reads "yep, the wrong facts don't serve any good purpose. Too easy for that to happen", was my comment, not Jack's Sorry, Jack.
wcgornto
05-06-2010, 12:34
"There is no law" in the woods?
What planet are you from? :D
Try burning down a bridge or defacing a shelter or intentionally starting a forest fire.
Lots of alcohol stoves burn a ring into the shelter every time they are used, yet the owners of such stoves, fully knowing that they are inflicting permanent harm, use such stoves daily anyway. I categorize this as intentionally defacing a shelter.
Note that this is not an indictment in general against all alcohol stoves, just the type that cause damage to shelters and the hikers that knowingly and carelessly use them.
Knowing when to be "on guard" for potential trouble at our hostel has helped me several times in the past few years. It is especially important to hear about hikers who repeatedly make women uncomfortable along the trail. I welcome these threads on Whiteblaze.
well, jack, i was there, i saw it with my own eyes and you sir are a liar. unfortunately for you, there were many people that witnessed your socially unacceptable acts. you think about the folks that were there. you may not mind saying that i am FOS, but do you really want to accuse those others of the same. go ahead and burn those bridges if you want. i'm sure it wouldn't be the first match that you've struck. and the fontana hilton would be one of those places that is patrolled by law enforcement that i was referring to. law does exist there, proven by the many stories of harassment by law enforcement, which i also witnessed myself back in 2000. law does exist in towns and at road crossings and places of population. if you go back and read my posts, you will understant that i was explaining the lack of law in the WOODS.
Lots of alcohol stoves burn a ring into the shelter every time they are used, ..............
Nope, those are old MSR Whisperlite doughnut (donut) rings. They ought to be outlawed.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 12:51
General:
1. I haven't had a cigarette in nearly 3 years, so I don't care what you
think you saw with your own eyes.
2. So yeah, since you mentioned the phrase, yeah, you're pretty much FOS.
3. As I said above, people that repeat false stories about other folks end up
looking petty and childish. But have at it some more if it makes you happy.
Have a nice day!! :D
Oh, and we seem to be beating a dead horse here, but if you contact the NPS or ATC in Harpers Ferry, they'll be happy to tell you all about laws and law enforcement in the woods, which you seem to think doesn't exist.
I think this one's sorta played out.
turtle fast
05-06-2010, 12:54
It is one thing to hear of a problem hiker second hand and to see a problem hiker causing problems firsthand. We hikers have to guard our good will because those hikers coming behind that problem hiker can suffer too. Hike your own hike, but do it legally and responsibly!! I think sometimes some trail justice is necessary for these folks. I am not advocating anything illegal...but a little information can go a long way.
There are authorities out there, and I think often, the trail is somewhat self-policing. Jack's post summed it up, no good reason to name people online.
how is the trail self-policing? unless a person is post certified, and carries a badge and a gun they are not the police. without that, what authority do they have? all someone can really do is ask another do please not conduct themselves in that manner. other than that, a person could practice some vigilantism or attempt to make a ctitzens arrest, both of which could result in an undesireable outcome. you can slander that person to others resulting in the mistakes that were previously stated, or you could just beat the hell out of them to prove your point. all things that the po-po can't do, because it is againt the law. the simple thing to do would be to move on up the trail especially if you're outnumbered. i'm not looking for conflict when i hike. part of the point is to get away from the common every day conflicts that we all encounter.
I meant that to some degree, you will often see people correct their behavior. Sometimes it's enough to have other hikers in the vicinity to call them out on their B.S. I'm not talking about serious stuff, of course, and I'm not about to take the law into my own hands, beat anybody, or practice any "vigilantism" myself. Obviously some people just don't care and will ignore other hikers requests. The key word was "somewhat". If somebody is causing disturbances, you often hear about it, and news does travel fast. Hostels already do contact each other about potential problem guests already. And these people are often made aware of their growing reputations; often that's enough to curb their behavior. I guess that's what I meant. I realize that it's not always the case.
General:
1. I haven't had a cigarette in nearly 3 years, so I don't care what you
think you saw with your own eyes.
2. So yeah, since you mentioned the phrase, yeah, you're pretty much FOS.
3. As I said above, people that repeat false stories about other folks end up
looking petty and childish. But have at it some more if it makes you happy.
Have a nice day!! :D
Oh, and we seem to be beating a dead horse here, but if you contact the NPS or ATC in Harpers Ferry, they'll be happy to tell you all about laws and law enforcement in the woods, which you seem to think doesn't exist.
I think this one's sorta played out.
you know what you did and didn't do, i'm sure. and, i don't need to call the NPS or the ATC (which is by no means a law enforcement agency) for the simple fact that i work for georgia DNR every day. i know exactly what laws exist, it's part of my job. once again, read the previous POSTS. there is no-one to enforce those laws in existance. in georgia, someones word is not enough to make an arrest. it is enough to start an investigation and that's it, unless a crime is witnessed directly by a law enforcement officer. how many USFS law enforcement officers or game wardens in uniform have you seen more than 3 miles away from a road on the AT?
you sure don't mind jabbing at others but you sure do get your panties in a wad when someone takes a justified shot at you don't you?
max patch
05-06-2010, 13:10
well, general, seems you lied to once already:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=806316&postcount=1
turtle fast
05-06-2010, 13:16
You would be suprised how many times if you ask someone causing a problem to cut it out stop.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 13:18
Aw, General, I only jab at people when they insist on saying things that just aren't true.
As for letting them make fools out of themselves with their posts, I'm also content to let them do that as often as they wish.
And yeah, I've seen plenty of folks with badges and guns on the Trail.
If you'd hiked further than half the Trail, then perhaps you'd have seen them, too. :D
See ya, this is getting tiresome.
chiefduffy
05-06-2010, 13:20
This thread reminds me of a journal by a guy from down under on the AT last year (Boy from Bellpost Hill). He was amazed how much we 'suffer fools' in this country. ' Said in Australia they tend to "mow down the tall weeds" or something like that....and he wasn't talking about the cops.
well, general, seems you lied to once already:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=806316&postcount=1
that's feakin' awesome, i had forgotten about that. thanks for reminding me. that was a good one. you made my day. i figured that it was time for a return with a vengeance. you should welcome the voice of reason.
Aw, General, I only jab at people when they insist on saying things that just aren't true.
As for letting them make fools out of themselves with their posts, I'm also content to let them do that as often as they wish.
And yeah, I've seen plenty of folks with badges and guns on the Trail.
If you'd hiked further than half the Trail, then perhaps you'd have seen them, too. :D
See ya, this is getting tiresome.
later tater, come on back when you want some more ya hear. just remember when you sit on a high horse you always run the risk of getting knocked off.
Tipi Walter
05-06-2010, 13:38
i'm not looking for conflict when i hike. part of the point is to get away from the common every day conflicts that we all encounter.
Yeah, the Appalachian Trail is not the only place in the country to backpack. From the stories I hear here on Whiteblaze the Trail often sounds like car campers in some RV campground. Clustering around shelters certainly contributes to the mess of too-much human interaction. Backpackers do not need to camp at or near the shelters, and often winter backpacking on the AT is pretty empty of other humans. In the spring and summer? Camp between shelters or avoid the AT altogether.
Solitude though is not what people are looking for, generally, on the AT. Knowing this, ya just have to put up with the riffraff. Or do a 4 or 5 month backpacking trip thru the Nantahala and Cherokee National Forests. No one says you have to backpack the AT. There's a thin tiny line across the mountains called the Appalachian Trail, and it's a linear tourist trap that is easily avoided. Go a hundred yards off this "motor mile" and you'll find seclusion.
I try to avoid people exhibiting rude or inappropriate behavior. That's easy on the trail, just pick up your stuff and move down the trail. Illegal activities should be reported to the authorities.
Slo-go'en
05-06-2010, 13:44
Lots of alcohol stoves burn a ring into the shelter every time they are used, yet the owners of such stoves, fully knowing that they are inflicting permanent harm, use such stoves daily anyway. I categorize this as intentionally defacing a shelter.
Alcohol stoves do not burn rings into shelters! Those are from out of control white gas stoves like whisper lights and exploding Coleman stoves.
You'd have to try really, really hard to burn a ring into a wood plank with an alcohol stove and even then it might not work.
restless
05-06-2010, 13:50
It does seem that for the most part there is a lack of enforcement of laws along the trail, particularly in remote locations. The closer you are to towns, road crossings or populated areas, the more likely it is that one will encounter LE. But for the most part, laws that exist on the books go unenforced. If this were not the case, someone please explain "Naked Hiking Day".
As for exposing someone in a public forum such as WB, I tend to not give much creddence to second hand stories. However, such as in this case from VA, it was evidently a first hand encounter. Caution must be exercised though that we don't embellish the facts by what we hace read here. I am satisfied with having the person offended comment here on WB, with names, and then let the trail community sort it out. And ultimately, it is the trail community which must police itself. A bad action by a hiker, not even necessarily a thru-hiker, can have a detrimental impact on future hikers, especially as it relates to services along the trail. How many services have ceased to hikers in the past 15 years because of irresposible actions by those who went before. I'm, sure Jack could relate many such instances.
Also, this post is about making public hikers who act in an irresponsible manner so that others may become aware of who it is. The same could be done for those who commit actual crimes-theft, assault etc. This is not a post about Jack. Despite his character flaws of the past, Jack has become one of the most recognizable ambassadors on the AT. And he gets us to think about consequences that our actions have upon others. I have seen the changes Jack has made in his personal life and find it admirable. Take your personal peeves about others to another post or another place.
turtle fast
05-06-2010, 14:04
Good post restless! :clap I was thinking the exact same thing! We have to show respect for fellow hikers and services available to us. Thus protecting our future for fellow hikers is important. Remember that our sport is NOT growing. Kids would rather play video games than hike. Turning someone off to hiking by rude or unruly behavior is uncool!
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 14:08
The Pork Chop thing is a Hobo Legend. I ate the aforementioned pork chops and they were good. I was sitting next to General's beautiful girlfriend, he was beside her, and if I recall correctly, he was eating the same alleged porkchops.
(This is getting weird).
Jester2000
05-06-2010, 14:10
Alcohol stoves do not burn rings into shelters! Those are from out of control white gas stoves like whisper lights and exploding Coleman stoves.
You'd have to try really, really hard to burn a ring into a wood plank with an alcohol stove and even then it might not work.
The picnic table on the porch of The Doyle Hotel tells a different story.
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 14:10
Turning someone off to hiking by rude or unruly behavior is uncool!
The way things are turned around these days, unruly behavior may actually attract more kids to hiking.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 14:14
Restless:
Thanx for the kind words and I hate to disappoint you, but not all of my character flaws are in the past!
There's been one perfect person in the last 2,000 years and I assure you it isn't me! :D
And as for the "changes in my personal life," I hate to say it, but I could REALLY use a Camel right about now. Got one?
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 14:18
I could REALLY use a Camel right about now. Got one?
Isn't that what the terrorists do over there in that there Iraq? That's what Sgt. Rock told me.
The Pork Chop thing is a Hobo Legend. I ate the aforementioned pork chops and they were good. I was sitting next to General's beautiful girlfriend, he was beside her, and if I recall correctly, he was eating the same alleged porkchops.
(This is getting weird).
i ate but i didn't eat no pork chop.
restless
05-06-2010, 14:37
Restless:
I hate to say it, but I could REALLY use a Camel right about now. Got one?
filthy hiker:D
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 14:39
filthy hiker:D
I think a sheep would be easier.
restless
05-06-2010, 14:40
BAA AAA AAA AAAD idea:eek:
Public shamings are wrong.
I should not have to explain why they are wrong.
People should know better.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 15:05
JAK:
No, you don't have to explain why public shaming is wrong, but please take a minute and tell us WHY you think this is so.
Let me provide a few examples:
*A group of hikers dis-respects and trashes a popular hiker hostel.
*A group of hikers is caught red-handed sneaking other people into their
motel room.
*Several hikers are caught swimming and trashing a privately owned
swimming pool near the Trail.
*A hiker is caught shoplifting by an employee of a store in a Trail town.
*A hiker engages in extremely unpleasant close personal contact with a
female hiker in a shelter despite her telling him more than once to keep his
distance.
*A hiker is selling bad drugs to other hikers despite being told to cut it out.
These are not imaginary stories. They ALL happened in the past two years and I personally witnessed most of them.
In cases like these, JAK, what is wrong about publicly naming these folks?
JAK:
No, you don't have to explain why public shaming is wrong, but please take a minute and tell us WHY you think this is so.
Let me provide a few examples:
*A group of hikers dis-respects and trashes a popular hiker hostel.
*A group of hikers is caught red-handed sneaking other people into their
motel room.
*Several hikers are caught swimming and trashing a privately owned
swimming pool near the Trail.
*A hiker is caught shoplifting by an employee of a store in a Trail town.
*A hiker engages in extremely unpleasant close personal contact with a
female hiker in a shelter despite her telling him more than once to keep his
distance.
*A hiker is selling bad drugs to other hikers despite being told to cut it out.
These are not imaginary stories. They ALL happened in the past two years and I personally witnessed most of them.
In cases like these, JAK, what is wrong about publicly naming these folks?
Wouldn't it be shameful if you didn't?:)
SGT Rock
05-06-2010, 15:15
I ate the pork chops. I'm still alive.
Jack,
Does it matter what I feel is moral or immoral?
I already told you one thing that I think it immoral, and that is public shaming.
Who decides who should be shamed, and for what reasons?
What about ulterior motives of the people doing the shaming?
What measures are in place to ensure people are not unfairly punished?
The internet has alot wrong with it, and this is one of them.
Protecting the AT from bad behaviour does not justify bad behaviour over the internet.
Jack,
Does it matter what I feel is moral or immoral?
I already told you one thing that I think it immoral, and that is public shaming.
Who decides who should be shamed, and for what reasons?
What about ulterior motives of the people doing the shaming?
What measures are in place to ensure people are not unfairly punished?
The internet has alot wrong with it, and this is one of them.
Protecting the AT from bad behaviour does not justify bad behaviour over the internet.
Valid point, but if there are people making trouble and disrespecting others people should be aware- and not judge, until both parties have their say. I've been on the side of these BOYS before and wasn't allowed to say my piece. On the internet you can, even though I just chose not to on another thread.
Jack Tarlin
05-06-2010, 15:25
JAK:
I see your point, but I gotta tell you, if I were a hotel or hostel proprietor and I caught people red-handed either ripping me off or vandalizing my place, I'd have no trouble whatsoever telling people about it. These folks have pretty much forfeited certain things, and on of them is the right to remain anonymous.
When people behave like this JAK, it's often because they think they won't get caught, or that there won't be any consequences to their act.
When they realize that there ARE consequences, then it is highly likely that they'll rethink repeating the behavior, and if one of the consequences is everyone in your community knowing about what they did, well so much the better.
Five year olds understand the concept of shame and regret, and I can think of plenty of adults who could stand a reminder.
trailangelmary
05-06-2010, 15:29
Any person(s) that could be consdered a problem hiker should result in informing the ATC & the NPS. Contact person for the NPS is Todd Remaly. If you inform these folks after you have asked hikers to change their behavior, they will then contact the ridge runner for that area to check it out.
Not all hikers realize that their actions on the trail and in towns affect the entire trail and the entire trail community. I remind hikers all the time of this and tell them one of my fav quotes from Jester 2000 - If you have to look over your shoulder to see if someones watching, dont do it.
I feel there is nothing wrong with guiding our younger generation wherever I am to act with respect for others.
The phone number for the ATC in Harper's Ferry is (304) 535-6331. I'm sure they can give you the correct number to call so that the info gets to the ridge runners.
Any person(s) that could be consdered a problem hiker should result in informing the ATC & the NPS.
I disagree to a point... for sure any "problem hiker" who is breaking the law could be reported. But people who are just being obnoxious? Making noise at 3AM in a shelter in the woods may be the supreme height of jackassery, but it's not illegal. The ATC maybe shouldn't, and most especially the NPS for sure shouldn't, get involved in simple jackassery.
generoll
05-06-2010, 15:39
Jack,
Does it matter what I feel is moral or immoral?
I already told you one thing that I think it immoral, and that is public shaming.
Who decides who should be shamed, and for what reasons?
What about ulterior motives of the people doing the shaming?
What measures are in place to ensure people are not unfairly punished?
The internet has alot wrong with it, and this is one of them.
Protecting the AT from bad behaviour does not justify bad behaviour over the internet.
Help me out here. If a persons behavior is not immoral in their eyes, then how is it shaming them to report it?
full conditions
05-06-2010, 15:43
This incident goes on my list as reason #3,426 as to why I never stay at shelters.
Don't let your behavior impose upon other people.
The hostels, trail angels and other providers helping you out is a privilege and not a right.
Say Please.
Say "Thank you".
Write a thank you card at the end of your hike. Your list is probably big! :)
At the end of the day, a smile, being even tempered and having a willingness to meet people part of the way goes a long way to resolving MANY issues..be it on the trail or in 'real life'.
Just my opinion anyway. :sun
trailangelmary
05-06-2010, 15:44
I disagree to a point... for sure any "problem hiker" who is breaking the law could be reported. But people who are just being obnoxious? Making noise at 3AM in a shelter in the woods may be the supreme height of jackassery, but it's not illegal. The ATC maybe shouldn't, and most especially the NPS for sure shouldn't, get involved in simple jackassery.
I do not suggest that every time someone acts up to call the ATC or NPS. However, if you see potential for further continued problems on the trail the ridge runners are there to keep an eye out. They are well trained and can have a calm coversation with any such hikers to help influence them in respecting others and the trail. Broken class in a fire ring on the trail we certainly don't want to see. A ridge runner or maintainer has to clean that up. Unless said hikers cleaned it up and packed it out in the morning. That would be good!
SGT Rock
05-06-2010, 15:44
For some reason I doubt that someone actually out on the trail will feel the full wrath of the internet.
Call me crazy.
Thanks for that trailangelmary.
It is important that people know who they should contact for such matters.
There should be consequences for such behaviour.
Public shaming on open internet forums is not the solution to such problems. Sometimes it is justified, perhaps, but it is too uncontrolled and open to abuse. It simply devolves into the realm of social bullying, and that can have very serious consequences.
We should all be careful to try and do the right thing, by proper means.
Social bullying over the internet should not be encouraged, for any purpose.
This incident goes on my list as reason #3,426 as to why I never stay at shelters.
Fair enough- but its not a shelter problem per say. I've been to my share of camp grounds/areas that has the same yahoos.:eek:
I do not suggest that every time someone acts up to call the ATC or NPS. However, if you see potential for further continued problems on the trail the ridge runners are there to keep an eye out. They are well trained and can have a calm coversation with any such hikers to help influence them in respecting others and the trail. Broken class in a fire ring on the trail we certainly don't want to see. A ridge runner or maintainer has to clean that up. Unless said hikers cleaned it up and packed it out in the morning. That would be good!
I see what you're saying. Though I would still say that the NPS shouldn't get involved unless actual lawbreaking has occurred. But the ATC could be notified for the exactly the points you mentioned. :)
Mountain Wildman
05-06-2010, 15:51
Restless:
Thanx for the kind words and I hate to disappoint you, but not all of my character flaws are in the past!
There's been one perfect person in the last 2,000 years and I assure you it isn't me! :D
And as for the "changes in my personal life," I hate to say it, but I could REALLY use a Camel right about now. Got one?
Who is the one perfect person in the last 2000 years?
SGT Rock
05-06-2010, 15:51
Who is the one perfect person in the last 2000 years?
Lone Wolf. I lead my life by his teachings.
berkshirebirder
05-06-2010, 15:52
A few of those offenses are illegal. Wouldn't it be more effective to notify the police, press charges, have the guilty parties fined, and publicize the fact?
If troublemakers knew they weren't going to get away with things, maybe they'd think twice about this kind of behavior. Not if they're drinking too much, of course.
Who is the one perfect person in the last 2000 years?
The Dalai Lama? Elvis?
my grammer and spelling are off today, maybe I should have sleep last night?:eek:
We were being yahoos- but were careful not to wake up any neighbors.:o
I see nothing wrong with publicly shaming those who do wrong on the Trail, provided we follow some of the guidelines one learns in Journalism 101. Adapted to the AT, of course.
First, any such post should carry the real name and the trail name of the author.
Second, only first-hand accounts should be posted.
Third, only facts that are verifiable--with sources given--should be posted.
Fourth, an effort should be made by the original poster to obtain a response from the "offensive" party, when possible, realizing it is not always possible.
Lastly, speculation should not creep into the thread. Only verifiable facts.
It would probably be a good idea to begin such threads in "Straight Forward," so that posts that drift from the original topic could be expected to be edited or deleted.
SGT Rock
05-06-2010, 15:54
The issue with notifying police.
Unless the offense is a felony, they cannot arrest them without a warrant unless they personally witness it. You can go swear a warrant if you want to, but then you are also liable for false arrest should they beat the charges. And that is if the cops are even willing to go chase someone for being drunk and disorderly two or three days back from the fact.
Cookerhiker
05-06-2010, 16:11
I haven't read this entire thread and apologize if this has already been brought up. I'm particularly outraged when misbehavior affects/victimizes service providers and local communities. Such actions unfortunately tar all hikers (yeah, I know they shouldn't but they do) and I believe the perpetrators should be shamed if for no other reason to warn other service providers down the trail.
Don't let your behavior impose upon other people.
The hostels, trail angels and other providers helping you out is a privilege and not a right.
Say Please.
Say "Thank you".
Write a thank you card at the end of your hike. Your list is probably big! :)
At the end of the day, a smile, being even tempered and having a willingness to meet people part of the way goes a long way to resolving MANY issues..be it on the trail or in 'real life'.
Just my opinion anyway. :sun
best post ever!
however, if you are a dumbass in public, then you should be chastised in public.
corialice81
05-06-2010, 17:19
however, if you are a dumbass in public, then you should be chastised in public.
second best post ever!
njordan2
05-06-2010, 18:47
I have never had a problem with a hiker.
Even the guy who was going to kill me on Blood Mountain a few years back, I got along with.
I was talking to an 84 year very healthy and vital friend today. He said, 'if nice was a vice, the world be a very happy place indeed'.
Skidsteer
05-06-2010, 20:08
If nice was a vice a lot us could claim stellar morals.
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 20:11
I was talking to an 84 year very healthy and vital friend today. He said, 'if nice was a vice, the world be a very happy place indeed'.
Tell him he's an idiot.
Just kidding!
warraghiyagey
05-06-2010, 20:20
well, jack, i was there, i saw it with my own eyes and you sir are a liar. unfortunately for you, there were many people that witnessed your socially unacceptable acts. you think about the folks that were there. you may not mind saying that i am FOS, but do you really want to accuse those others of the same. go ahead and burn those bridges if you want. i'm sure it wouldn't be the first match that you've struck. and the fontana hilton would be one of those places that is patrolled by law enforcement that i was referring to. law does exist there, proven by the many stories of harassment by law enforcement, which i also witnessed myself back in 2000. law does exist in towns and at road crossings and places of population. if you go back and read my posts, you will understant that i was explaining the lack of law in the WOODS.
Jack, General ain't my best friend in t he world for sure. . . . but I know absolutely that what he says is the truth. . . . self depracation is a smidge easier for me than you I've noticed. . . . the only way this topic will go away is for you to just own it. . . and get off your bully pulpit on other topics. . . too many GOOD folk witnessed it for you to continue to deny it. . . your word on this topi is absolutely invalid. . . so have soem fun with. . . admit it, the first step for you to consign the entire incident to oblivion. . . .
Lone Wolf
05-06-2010, 20:22
Who is the one perfect person in the last 2000 years?
me?..........
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 20:23
me?..........
In that case ... I beg your forgiveness.
johnnybgood
05-06-2010, 20:23
I see nothing wrong with publicly shaming those who do wrong on the Trail, provided we follow some of the guidelines one learns in Journalism 101. Adapted to the AT, of course.
First, any such post should carry the real name and the trail name of the author.
Second, only first-hand accounts should be posted.
Third, only facts that are verifiable--with sources given--should be posted.
Fourth, an effort should be made by the original poster to obtain a response from the "offensive" party, when possible, realizing it is not always possible.
Lastly, speculation should not creep into the thread. Only verifiable facts.
It would probably be a good idea to begin such threads in "Straight Forward," so that posts that drift from the original topic could be expected to be edited or deleted.
Agree entirely with this set of criteria. My opinion is that the offending party needs to know that their actions are socially unacceptable.
The common sense courtesy that is expected in the workplace and at any business establishment should also be expected on the trail or anywhere in public.
Case in point:
I once had to intervene and remind a young dude cursing loudly that there were other people including families with small children around and that his vulgar mouth was unacceptable, especially within 10 feet of the front door at Big Meadows Wayside in Shenandoah Nat'l Park.
Lone Wolf
05-06-2010, 20:26
In that case ... I beg your forgiveness.
you got it. no problem
Lone Wolf
05-06-2010, 20:28
In that case ... I beg your forgiveness.
you got it. no problem
but for what exactly?
Good post restless! :clap I was thinking the exact same thing! We have to show respect for fellow hikers and services available to us. Thus protecting our future for fellow hikers is important. Remember that our sport is NOT growing. Kids would rather play video games than hike. Turning someone off to hiking by rude or unruly behavior is uncool!
There is a solution for that. Help your local youth group get out there. I do... and I get a kick out of seeing young boys discover the outdoors and learn to be self-reliant by being away from their mommies and access to anything but what they carry on their backs, in their hearts and in their minds.
modiyooch
05-06-2010, 20:58
I was reading a trail journal and a couple of women went home due to similar behavior in the shelter. If the hiker didn't feel safe enough to continue, how can we convince the families that it's safe for woman to hike alone.
think0075
05-06-2010, 21:09
JAK:
No, you don't have to explain why public shaming is wrong, but please take a minute and tell us WHY you think this is so.
Let me provide a few examples:
*A hiker is selling bad drugs to other hikers despite being told to cut it out....
These are not imaginary stories. They ALL happened in the past two years and I personally witnessed most of them....
I just want to say if anyone is selling bad drugs the whiteblaze community should be notified immediately. I prefer the good stuff.
modiyooch
05-06-2010, 21:13
It's often a whole lot of unsubstantiated, one-sided gossip. The alleged offenders are not able to present their side of the story skewing the actual events tremendously.
.They are able, and they did. Maybe not illegal, but apparently is was offensive to ConcernedMom. And it wasn't second hand reporting. I probably would have been offended and ticked as well. But, I never stay at shelters anyway. But, if you do this to me at a campground, beware, I am very vindictive in the very early hours of the morning.
however, if you are a dumbass in public, then you should be chastised in public.
I'm reminded of the kid a couple years ago who relieved himself through the floor of the second story of a shelter on to the front porch below and then bragged about it in his journal. He was put throgh the ringer here. So much so that folks who knew him signed up to make attempts to defend his mistake and imply that it was unseemly to call him out on it.
I've said it before, so here we go again, ain't scrutiny a bitch? This ain't an endorsement of "public shaming", but let's be honest, some behaviors need to be pointed out and disapproved of, IMO. Also, and very important, Skyline is dead on in post# 75.
maicheneb
05-06-2010, 21:51
lots of bad behavior at The Place this year. almost daily i have to remind someone of the rules. almost always 20something year old thru hikers
Hey now. Not all twenty-somethings are ill-mannered! I cannot speak for my peers, but I revere the trail, its history, its culture, and I am especially mindful of those around me. After all, it's their hike, too.
Bulldawg
05-06-2010, 21:59
The Pork Chop thing is a Hobo Legend. I ate the aforementioned pork chops and they were good. I was sitting next to General's beautiful girlfriend, he was beside her, and if I recall correctly, he was eating the same alleged porkchops.
(This is getting weird).
Legend my a$$. I was there, sitting right beside a WB regular, my wife on the other side of me. The only issue with general's initial post concerning Jack is that it involved two different incidents. The ashes over the food happened at Neel Gap. I wasn't there, but I know other, very trustworthy friends who were. The pork chop incident was indeed April 2009, Franklin, NC Sapphire Inn parking lot. It happened, we all saw it, 10 or 15 of us. We all got a good laugh out of it too. Maybe that is why we remember it so well, because it was so funny. It's all good though Jack, I got my chop before you got over there in behind them!
Also, and very important, Skyline is dead on in post# 75.
So why doesn't WhiteBlaze adopt it as a policy and expect everyone who posts here to adhere to it, rather than have a thread like this every year.
Let's have some consensus and policy. Maybe we could begin to accomplish something useful instead of nothing more than seeing how wide a range of opinions we can express on every topic under the sun.
because adults should be able to censure themselves without a bunch of "policy", SOG.
because adults should be able to censure themselves without a bunch of "policy", SOG.
You are absolutely correct, but they do not as your post illustrates.
Bulldawg
05-06-2010, 22:06
Maybe we could begin to accomplish something useful instead of nothing more than seeing how wide a range of opinions we can express on every topic under the sun.
People can only discuss shelters, sleeping bags, stoves, tents, etc. so much. Folks have to change the subject and here is a shocker, have a little laugh every now and again, SOG.
Lone Wolf
05-06-2010, 22:07
I see nothing wrong with publicly shaming those who do wrong on the Trail, provided we follow some of the guidelines one learns in Journalism 101. Adapted to the AT, of course.
First, any such post should carry the real name and the trail name of the author.
Second, only first-hand accounts should be posted.
Third, only facts that are verifiable--with sources given--should be posted.
Fourth, an effort should be made by the original poster to obtain a response from the "offensive" party, when possible, realizing it is not always possible.
Lastly, speculation should not creep into the thread. Only verifiable facts.
It would probably be a good idea to begin such threads in "Straight Forward," so that posts that drift from the original topic could be expected to be edited or deleted.
kinda like that other thread about the old orchard partiers that was locked down
why did it get locked down?
You are absolutely correct, but they do not as your post illustrates.
hey! i thought long and hard about that post, SOG.
Skidsteer
05-06-2010, 22:11
So why doesn't WhiteBlaze adopt it as a policy and expect everyone who posts here to adhere to it, rather than have a thread like this every year.
The short answer is that Whiteblaze would dry up and blow away if such a silly policy was adopted.
And you'd have no one to talk to.
Well it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
On the AT, we should be concerned with our behaviour on the AT. On the internet, we should be concerned with our behaviour on the internet. If service providers and other parties want to share information, heresay, rumours, or cold hard facts, they should do it elsewhere. On here it it just middle school social bullying, and we should all be old enough to know better. Granted, it is a new media and some of us are still working out the kinks. We have to be careful what we say on here, because it seems to last forever. More often than not, when we attempt to shame or slander others, we may well succeed, but we usually shame ourselves in the process. We should check our own eyes first, and be sure to remove any 2x4s that might be sticking out of them.
Better yet, we should look for alternate means than public shaming over the internet.
why did it get locked down?
Because it was getting to the point of people calling each other " big poo poo heads". That's why. Was not exactly straight forward. :)
I really don't care what people discuss personally..but when it devolves into the equivalent of five year olds flinging oatmeal at each other.. Eh..why bother have it going on?
Maybe I am just getting crotchety in my old age...
:banana
Maybe I am just getting crotchety in my old age...
:banana
Mags SUCKS!!
(but for reasons entirely unrelated to his moderating!) ;)
So why doesn't WhiteBlaze adopt it as a policy and expect everyone who posts here to adhere to it, rather than have a thread like this every year.
Let's have some consensus and policy. Maybe we could begin to accomplish something useful instead of nothing more than seeing how wide a range of opinions we can express on every topic under the sun.
Since you so clearly feel the need to be a moderator, just ask some of the admins. Maybe they'll give you a section to monitor. Just stay FAR away from the Humor forum.
Let's not bring oatmeal into this discussion.
We should all give oatmeal the respect it duly deserves.
Since you so clearly feel the need to be a moderator, just ask some of the admins. Maybe they'll give you a section to monitor. Just stay FAR away from the Humor forum.
WB is a busy website. Volunteers are always welcome SOG... :)
I for one and more ashamed of stuff I have posted on internet forums than stuff I have done in public, and sure I've done alot of bad stuff in public, mostly in my younger years. My point is, we should be more concerned about what we say on the internet, and how we say it, and less concerned about how others behave or might behave in public. Turning to the internet to shame people for their ill-manners on the Appalachian Trail is rather like going to a brothel to share information about adultery.
warraghiyagey
05-06-2010, 22:44
Because it was getting to the point of people calling each other " big poo poo heads". That's why. Was not exactly straight forward. :)
I really don't care what people discuss personally..but when it devolves into the equivalent of five year olds flinging oatmeal at each other.. Eh..why bother have it going on?
Maybe I am just getting crotchety in my old age...
:banana
Whatever, PooPooHead . . . .
fiddlehead
05-06-2010, 22:50
Ah, good read today for my morning coffee.
(yes, we are 12 hours different here)
My thoughts on the whole thing:
Most anything can and should be discussed.
But naming names is not cool without permission.
A good case in point is the battle going on between General and Jack right now.
Not sure if the general is being honest, correct or accurate but you can see that if it is not true, it has put a wrongful doubt on jack's honesty and integrity.
And THAT is whats going to happen too many times to make it a good thing.
The internet is changing the world and there are not many secrets anymore.
However, starting rumors about someone (whether true or not) can really defame them. (intentionally or not)
Too many trolls out there.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
now it's time to go jogging.
warraghiyagey
05-06-2010, 22:53
Geberal is not being dishonest. . . . Jack has been called out and he could handle it with grace and humor by simply fessin up and making a little light humor of it. . . . too many folk saw Jack do it . . . . which is gross even amongst hikers. . . .
DesertMTB
05-06-2010, 22:55
Judging by the number of views (2,000 plus today) it appears we WBers are interested in those types of threads/posts.
I say the less censorship and freedom to post whatever the better
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 22:55
but for what exactly?
Do I have to be exact?
OK, I have Jimmy Carter Syndrome ... I lusted in my mind (but at least I didn't give the Panama Canal away).
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 22:57
I like my porkchops with cigarette ash after they've been dropped on the ground.
warraghiyagey
05-06-2010, 22:59
I like my porkchops with cigarette ash after they've been dropped on the ground.
Now that folks. . . . is a real hiker. . . . :D
Gray Blazer
05-06-2010, 23:05
Now that folks. . . . is a real hiker. . . . :D
I can't afford to be a real hiker. I'm just trash.
Rock told me my gear was so old there were leeches in the first aid kit.
warraghiyagey
05-06-2010, 23:07
My pack is deerskin and buffalo sinew stitching. . .
Rain Man
05-07-2010, 08:10
I was reading a trail journal and a couple of women went home due to similar behavior in the shelter. If the hiker didn't feel safe enough to continue, how can we convince the families that it's safe for woman to hike alone.
Too many of these drug abuse cases (and alcohol is a drug and they were abusing it), and not only can we not convince families it's safe, it won't be safe.
Telling the victims to pack up and move out is like assigning the burden for preventing rapes to females. Why victimize the victims twice? The perps are the ones who need to change their conduct, and not the other way around. And the authorities need to have that attitude. As do we all.
Rain Man
.
point is Jack states that he doesn't thing that there is any problem with bringing unacceptable behavior to light in a public forum. however, when he is called out himself there seems to be a problem with that. that folks, would be hipocritical, kinda like a sunday school sermon from a druggie, thug, and a thief. as far as my honesty and integrity, well, i'm sure that there have been times in my life when both were in question, but i can guarandarntee that i knew it when it was.
Old Hiker
05-07-2010, 08:26
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Irish politician Edmund Burke (1729 – 1797).
We also need to step up and defend anyone who is attempting to stop the behaviors so they don't feel as if they are alone.
It also comes down to the "Broken Windows Syndrome" as well. http://www.sjvgreens.org/broken.shtml
If we don't stand up to the people who bring us a bad reputation, we will find ourselves with no help, magic or resources to complete our journeys or fulfill our dreams.
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
..Statement at the signing of the Declaration of Independence (1776-07-04), quoted as an anecdote in The Works of Benjamin Franklin by Jared Sparks (1840). However, this had earlier been attributed to Richard Penn in Memoirs of a Life, Chiefly Passed in Pennsylvania, Within the Last Sixty Years (1811, p. 116).
Old Hiker
05-07-2010, 08:28
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
Hey!! Ol' Ben Franklin was a hammocker as well!!!!
Jack Tarlin
05-07-2010, 09:25
Warrig:
You and General should get a room or something, your act is getting tired.
The story related isn't true; General didn't "call me out" and both of you can.....well you can figure it out. But I'm not gonna fess up to something that didn't happen. This October 17th I'll be 3 years without a cigarette; anyone telling stories about me from a year ago April that involves smoking.....well either they're making this stuff up, have their facts wrong, or are simply repeating lies. Or all three. Even when these people slam me they can't get it right, they should find a new hobby. :D
Have a nice day.
Guys..keep the pork chop debate of 2010 to PMing. Thanks! It's Friday..get ready for some hiking this weekend. :sun
jersey joe
05-07-2010, 09:42
With technology it is getting harder and harder to hide who you really are. More and more is seen, written about and recorded...it reminds me of something my mother used to tell me when I was little..."God is always watching"...if you lead your life like that then you shouldn't have an issue with everything you do being public.
Jack Tarlin
05-07-2010, 10:08
Old Hiker:
I entirely agree with your remarks in Post #124, especially the wonderful quote from Burke. It's a good one.
What a pity that it's never been proven that he actually said it. :D
Gray Blazer
05-07-2010, 10:13
Old Hiker:
I entirely agree with your remarks in Post #124, especially the wonderful quote from Burke. It's a good one.
What a pity that it's never been proven that he actually said it. :D
Kinda sorta like what was stated in post #5.
i did a search, but got zero results. wasnt there a thread about a guy and his porographic writings in shelter registers recently? maddog
Gray Blazer
05-07-2010, 10:48
i did a search, but got zero results. wasnt there a thread about a guy and his porographic writings in shelter registers recently? maddog
Yeah, you're not imagining things. I don't know what happened to it.
max patch
05-07-2010, 10:49
Someone smoked a cigarette. Or not.
Hell of thing for a supposed Appalachian Trail site to discuss.
The short answer is that Whiteblaze would dry up and blow away if such a silly policy was adopted.
And you'd have no one to talk to.
The suggestions I made in post 75 involved behavior we should adopt as WB members. I know the moderators have too much on their plates to actually enforce it 100% or even consistently.
Instead of more "rules," perhaps the payoff would be that third-party gossip, innuendo, personality attacks, etc. would just cease to be taken seriously here. But when someone goes to the trouble of posting valid first-hand observations about bad acts by other hikers, backs it up with verifiable facts, provides quotes from identifiable witnesses to an event, and is willing to sign his trail name and real name to the post--then that should be encouraged and respected.
Because when someone rips off a hostel or shuttle service, goes on a drunken rampage in a trail town, threatens the safety of other folks, and much more--that affects us all in some way, in the present and/or in the future. Calling out a perp in a public forum the "right" way does serve a valid purpose. Doing so without making a strong effort to present just the verifiable facts only invites controversy.
The goal in providing the information in the first place should be to warn other hikers, service providers, ATC, and in extreme cases law enforcement about a real and ongoing threat to the trail community and its friends. Someone who feels he or she has been wrongly accused has the option to defend himself or herself here--but the same high standards of providing verifiable facts should apply if one is hoping to be taken seriously.
Alligator
05-07-2010, 11:10
i did a search, but got zero results. wasnt there a thread about a guy and his porographic writings in shelter registers recently? maddog
Yeah, you're not imagining things. I don't know what happened to it.It was pulled. The reasons relate to what Skyline is talking about. First post from an account with no reasonable member information.
max patch
05-07-2010, 11:23
The suggestions I made in post 75 involved behavior we should adopt as WB members. I know the moderators have too much on their plates to actually enforce it 100% or even consistently.
Instead of more "rules," perhaps the payoff would be that third-party gossip, innuendo, personality attacks, etc. would just cease to be taken seriously here. But when someone goes to the trouble of posting valid first-hand observations about bad acts by other hikers, backs it up with verifiable facts, provides quotes from identifiable witnesses to an event, and is willing to sign his trail name and real name to the post--then that should be encouraged and respected.
Because when someone rips off a hostel or shuttle service, goes on a drunken rampage in a trail town, threatens the safety of other folks, and much more--that affects us all in some way, in the present and/or in the future. Calling out a perp in a public forum the "right" way does serve a valid purpose. Doing so without making a strong effort to present just the verifiable facts only invites controversy.
The goal in providing the information in the first place should be to warn other hikers, service providers, ATC, and in extreme cases law enforcement about a real and ongoing threat to the trail community and its friends. Someone who feels he or she has been wrongly accused has the option to defend himself or herself here--but the same high standards of providing verifiable facts should apply if one is hoping to be taken seriously.
You agree with Skylines post or not.
But to characterize it as "silly" as a mod has done is just silly.
berkshirebirder
05-07-2010, 11:31
The porkchop incident leads me to ask if there's a statute of limitations for E-tar&feathering. There should be. Otherwise, hiker skeletons will be dragged out of closets whenever someone feels the need to post a comment.
chiefduffy
05-07-2010, 11:47
I can't afford to be a real hiker. I'm just trash.
Rock told me my gear was so old there were leeches in the first aid kit.
Gray, you most assuredly are a real hiker. I have proof:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/3/7/8/4/pict0213_thumb.jpg
Gray Blazer
05-07-2010, 11:52
Thanks, Chief. I don't know what else to say.
Gray Blazer
05-07-2010, 11:57
Who is the one perfect person in the last 2000 years?
Saimiyoji
......
Alligator
05-07-2010, 12:01
You agree with Skylines post or not.
But to characterize it as "silly" as a mod has done is just silly.
These gossip threads come up from time to time and they are all different. Sometimes they are true and sometimes false, and some times they are in between what he and she said. Often the facts don't get put out there and these threads generate a lot of controversy. I've been considering different ways to approach these and haven't found a good solution as there are a lot of balancing concerns.
I have no comment on the silly reference.
I don't see how pork chops and the method of preparing and cooking pork chops have anything to do with bad behavior. If the now famous pork chop incident is true, it sounds like the pork chop cooker upper was trying to duplicate cooking the pork chops under trail conditions. A little ash and a little dirt for seasoning. As far as taking a bite out of the pork chop in question, well, if you ever watch some of those TV cooking shows you will know that the best chefs always say you should taste the food before serving it. So what did the pork chop cooker upper do wrong?
These gossip threads come up from time to time and they are all different. Sometimes they are true and sometimes false, and some times they are in between what he and she said. Often the facts don't get put out there and these threads generate a lot of controversy. I've been considering different ways to approach these and haven't found a good solution as there are a lot of balancing concerns.
I have no comment on the silly reference.
Its not always easy being the Alligator.:D;)
So what did the pork chop cooker upper do wrong?
hopped up on a high horse about acceptable social behavior
deny, deny, deny, to the bitter end. not a bad policy sometimes.
I don't see how pork chops and the method of preparing and cooking pork chops have anything to do with bad behavior. If the now famous pork chop incident is true, it sounds like the pork chop cooker upper was trying to duplicate cooking the pork chops under trail conditions. A little ash and a little dirt for seasoning. As far as taking a bite out of the pork chop in question, well, if you ever watch some of those TV cooking shows you will know that the best chefs always say you should taste the food before serving it. So what did the pork chop cooker upper do wrong?
Jack did quit smoking but I heard the ash story from long ago.:)
In the case a the bitten chop, well, Jack didn't quit Jim--- and perhaps he doesn't recall. Seems the story has been combined, besides, it wasn't a porkchop- it was a muskrat!:D
Heck, just the other night my friends were like- Nean! You took off all your clothes and were dancing on the table!!! And I was like- I wasn't dancing on the table.:o
.....then I saw the photos-yikes!:eek:
hopped up on a high horse about acceptable social behavior
So when someone disagrees with you you assert that they are riding a higher horse than the one you are riding?
So when someone disagrees with you you assert that they are riding a higher horse than the one you are riding?
lmao...thats great...sorry losers...back to the trail!! maddog
So when someone disagrees with you you assert that they are riding a higher horse than the one you are riding?
nope, don't ride horses, big or small, just making a point.
Wouldn't it be great if we could see our own faults as easily as we see others?:)
I don't have this problem- but everyone else does.:eek:
saimyoji
05-07-2010, 13:14
Saimiyoji
......
whozzat???
saimyoji
05-07-2010, 13:15
First post from an account with no reasonable member information.
have i submitted any reasonable member info? just askin'
bulldog49
05-07-2010, 13:33
nope, don't ride horses, big or small, just making a point.
The only point I can see you've made is the one on top of your head.
Alligator
05-07-2010, 13:38
have i submitted any reasonable member info? just askin'Yep;) .
Father Dragon
05-07-2010, 14:41
There is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us,' that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us.
I've always liked that saying.
saimyoji
05-07-2010, 14:46
lets get this thread onto a more positive note. here's something we can all enjoy.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/tyler-florence/smothered-pork-chops-recipe/index.html
double d
05-07-2010, 14:57
Public shamings are wrong.
I should not have to explain why they are wrong.
People should know better.
So, your against newspapers publishing the names and photo's of convicted felons?
double d
05-07-2010, 15:03
Don't let your behavior impose upon other people.
The hostels, trail angels and other providers helping you out is a privilege and not a right.
Say Please.
Say "Thank you".
Write a thank you card at the end of your hike. Your list is probably big! :)
At the end of the day, a smile, being even tempered and having a willingness to meet people part of the way goes a long way to resolving MANY issues..be it on the trail or in 'real life'.
Just my opinion anyway. :sun
Mags, the voice of reason! Very good, especially your first one.
hey! i thought long and hard about that post, SOG.
what does "SOG" mean?
bigmac_in
05-07-2010, 15:34
what does "SOG" mean?
I think (but I'm not sure) it is a reference to a "secret identity".
I think it stands for "Shades of Green" because they keep posting it to Emerald. I guess he must like different shades of green socks.
Clyde
Cookerhiker
05-07-2010, 15:45
I think it stands for "Shades of Green" because they keep posting it to Emerald. I guess he must like different shades of green socks.
Clyde
You're close Clyde - his former WB name was Shades of Gray. But I suspect you're correct about the green socks!:D
You're close Clyde - his former WB name was Shades of Gray. But I suspect you're correct about the green socks!:D
oh...that guy...okay thanks
bigmac_in
05-07-2010, 15:56
Wow - I guess I was really on to something there.
It's obvious you're on something. :p
bigmac_in
05-07-2010, 18:02
It's obvious you're on something. :p
One TO something darn it. . . .
Skidsteer
05-07-2010, 20:50
You agree with Skylines post or not.
But to characterize it as "silly" as a mod has done is just silly.
I stepped aside as an Admin on Feb. 1 of this year.
I'm not big on announcements so I didn't announce it.
Thus far, no one has noticed I quit which makes me tend to think I was a
pretty good moderator.
So, your against newspapers publishing the names and photo's of convicted felons?
Are you kidding me? That's your analogy?
I'll see your silliness, and up you one...
So you are in favour of school kids bullying one another into suicide?
Here's to all the ungulates
Some are cool but most are nuts
Scraping a living from roots and snails
Walking through life on their fingernails
Are you kidding me? That's your analogy?
I'll see your silliness, and up you one...
So you are in favour of school kids bullying one another into suicide?
i am in favor of parents teaching their kids self-respect and confidence so that they do not fall prey to bullying.
Hell, after a long hike I would eat a pork chop even if you told me you intended to spit on it. Just make sure you cook it well well done so it gets all the flavor crystals. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ7bFIZPUXk
warraghiyagey
05-07-2010, 21:49
I stepped aside as an Admin on Feb. 1 of this year.
I'm not big on announcements so I didn't announce it.
Thus far, no one has noticed I quit which makes me tend to think I was a
pretty good moderator.
:sun
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
I stepped aside as an Admin on Feb. 1 of this year.
I'm not big on announcements so I didn't announce it.
Thus far, no one has noticed I quit which makes me tend to think I was a
pretty good moderator.I noticed, but you still qualify as more than a "pretty good moderator".;)
See how I tied in the ungulate thing with the spitting thing. This use of juxtaposition provides some focus and emphasis to highlight the primary theme of this thread.
Beauty eh?
Skidsteer
05-07-2010, 22:01
See how I tied in the ungulate thing with the spitting thing. This use of juxtaposition provides some focus and emphasis to highlight the primary theme of this thread.
Beauty eh?
You are silly too. :D
TheCheek
05-07-2010, 22:18
I was hoping to hold out for ths thread to reach 200 posts before I point out how sad it is that no one even mentioned Leave No Trace ethics of this topic.
In particular:
Be considerate of other visitors
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises
As far as I'm concerned violating this is the same in terms of LNT ethics as dumping your waste oil directly into a river on the trail, and the people involved with violating it deserve to be shamed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ7bFIZPUXk
Laugh out loud
i am in favor of parents teaching their kids self-respect and confidence so that they do not fall prey to bullying.
Aha. So your the one.
I was hoping to hold out for ths thread to reach 200 posts before I point out how sad it is that no one even mentioned Leave No Trace ethics of this topic.
In particular:
Be considerate of other visitors
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises
As far as I'm concerned violating this is the same in terms of LNT ethics as dumping your waste oil directly into a river on the trail, and the people involved with violating it deserve to be shamed.
Well, I'm not surprised by this...but "be considerate of others" and "avoid loud voices and noises" are things you would think folks would already have mastered and practiced when spending some time in the woods, or even in everyday life. If not, the LNT guidelines aren't going to accomplish much on those fronts. Not sure of the angle with the "waste oil" example.
Gray Blazer
05-07-2010, 23:18
I stepped aside as an Admin on Feb. 1 of this year.
I'm not big on announcements so I didn't announce it.
Thus far, no one has noticed I quit which makes me tend to think I was a
pretty good moderator.
The best. It was pretty obvious to me cuz it did not say moderator by your name.
Slo-go'en
05-07-2010, 23:58
"... loud voices and noises"
Is unfortunetly something that lots of people (especially kids) think is okay to do in the woods. They have no clue as to how far sound can travel in the woods.
Is unfortunetly something that lots of people (especially kids) think is okay to do in the woods. They have no clue as to how far sound can travel in the woods.Well, c'mon, it's not always the same situation. Campgrounds, shelters, tent sites, trail and off-trail situations are different. On top of that, children will be kids.
sheepdog
05-08-2010, 01:03
Is unfortunetly something that lots of people (especially kids) think is okay to do in the woods. They have no clue as to how far sound can travel in the woods.
let kids be kids in the woods
they get shushed enough at home and school
The AT needs more ungulates. This thread needs more ungulates!
Where are all the ungulates?
For some reason I doubt that someone actually out on the trail will feel the full wrath of the internet.
Call me crazy.
Good point. Very interesting point!
If a truth falls while you are in the forest, does it make a sound?
Aha. So your the one.
yes. it's a lonely life.
modiyooch
05-08-2010, 07:54
i am in favor of parents teaching their kids self-respect and confidence so that they do not fall prey to bullying.I am in favor of parents teaching their kids respect for others in appropriate behavior and language. Does "it takes a village" apply here, hence the outing on the internet?
that is one hairy question...
at this age, i would say that the people in question are old enough to make their own decisions. however, the guidelines for making those decisions should have been put in place at a very young age.
either the parents failed to do their job or the kids are just dense. either way, if they're gonna act like asses on the trail away from their mommies, then yes, the village should step in and discipline.
if somebody came in my house acting like that, i would say something. if you're out hiking, that's your house, we just have to share it.
The internet is a **** village, full of idiots, no place to grow up.
If you really wanted to make the world a better place you would do it on the trail.
... like the mystics do ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ph8hNljOXE
Ooops. Wrong version. Here's the long version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmBE3J8lQ4
One on one to talk to you
Like film stars they get close to you
You've mirrored his appeal
He wants you so, he wants to be beside you
Then you pass by giving him the other side of you
Like the mystics do
...
Hell, after a long hike I would eat a pork chop even if you told me you intended to spit on it. .....:)
George Orwell, author of Animal Farm, 1984 and numerous other important books, in one essay tells about working as a dishwasher in a high class French restaurant in his early days.
Orwell reported that the chef insisted on spitting on each steak before it was served to give it that attractive just off the grill shine.
Weary
They don't make them like that anymore.
Pedaling Fool
05-08-2010, 09:27
I was hoping to hold out for ths thread to reach 200 posts before I point out how sad it is that no one even mentioned Leave No Trace ethics of this topic.
In particular:
Be considerate of other visitors
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises
As far as I'm concerned violating this is the same in terms of LNT ethics as dumping your waste oil directly into a river on the trail, and the people involved with violating it deserve to be shamed.
Dumping waste oil (as in motor oil??) I don't think that is the same as:
"Be considerate of other visitors"
"Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises"
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 09:36
It was a bit of a stretch for sure. . .
Dumping waste oil (as in motor oil??) I don't think that is the same as:
"Be considerate of other visitors"
"Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises"
It was a bit of a stretch for sure. . .
y'all quit being so literal. it was the spirit of the comparison, not the letter. i would agree that watching someone pour motor oil into a river and listening to someone forcing me to listen to the oily sounds of their cell phone conversation would both nut me up fo sho.
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 11:25
y'all quit being so literal. it was the spirit of the comparison, not the letter. i would agree that watching someone pour motor oil into a river and listening to someone forcing me to listen to the oily sounds of their cell phone conversation would both nut me up fo sho.
That's great . . . . make me a samwich . . . .
want me to eat it for you too?
TJ aka Teej
05-08-2010, 12:52
I think this thread has run long enough to let it fizzle out.
I agree. It seems that an increase in anonymity leads to a decrease in civilty, and vice-versa. It doesn't bother me that I would have to watch my manners on the trail, even if I was having a bad day, or risk my rudeness might be broadcast far and wide.
Almost sounds like you are advocating the installation of camears on the trail, just like in downtown London, where police can tell pedestrians to pick up that gum wrapper they just threw on the ground.:p