View Full Version : sexism on the trail?
redparade
05-08-2010, 09:37
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 09:41
As a dude, other dudes that are like that have always made me uncomfortable at the very least, but I haven't seen much of it, if any. . . most of the dude's I've met out there are just good folk, respectful enough, but there are a few of the pink blazer types that are just downright repulsive. . . they are few and far between and the rest of the trail community has a way of helping our sisters out there steer clear of them. . . .
At least that's what I like to believe. . . :sun
redparade
05-08-2010, 09:49
Oh! I didn't mean to imply that most men on the trail aren't great - most are! I hope I didn't come across as combative :)
But my handful of experiences with less respectable guys have been really startling. I think they make a big impression on me because I never expect to encounter any sexism at all on the trail (I know this is naive to think... you find all kinds in all places)...
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 09:56
Oh! I didn't mean to imply that most men on the trail aren't great - most are! I hope I didn't come across as combative :)
...
Not at all. . . it's a good question and I'm guessing many of the ladies have a different experience with this than I do. . . which is horribly unfortunate. . . but the good guys watch out for our sisters. . .
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
girl, those kind of men are everywhere, the trail too. i don't often experience it on the trail but when i usually just ignore it cause i really don't care about whatever their problem is. it only affects you if you let it. if it's excessive i'll outright tell them to flip off.
berkshirebirder
05-08-2010, 12:15
I hope I didn't come across as combative --redparade
First, don't apologize for telling it like it is, redparade. That only attracts Neanderthals to you (with apologies to the GEICO Neanderthals).
There are many fine men, young and not so young, who have been paying attention for a long time and who treat women as equals (occasionally, as superiors). Seek them out. Don't waste time trying to enlighten anyone on the Trail. A simple reply, a disgusted look, maybe...then move on.
skinewmexico
05-08-2010, 12:28
What can you say, for the most part, we're raising a graceless generation.
The terms "sexist" and "sexism" can be somewhat vague. It's common usage can change from one generation to the next, or at least from one context to the next. It can mean something different, for example, when applied in a social non-workplace context than in a workplace context. What does it mean in the context of this thread?
Jonnycat
05-08-2010, 13:51
Fight the power!
http://i40.tinypic.com/10rmzhw.jpg
bulldog49
05-08-2010, 14:18
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
Yep, I'm fed-up with all the women thinking they are superior to men. :eek:
Toolshed
05-08-2010, 14:42
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
Perhaps some examples to which you are referring would of help?
Is it a sly look or comment?
Not putting the outhouse seat down?
Is it comments about women in general?
Is it male cameradery and joshing in the shelter at night that you feel left out of?
Is it being hit on? (Which really isn't a bad thing or there'd be no one left, right?? :D)
Or hit on repeatedly?
Even though the OP was vague, I think she deserves the benefit of doubt. No doubt, some bad behaviour exists which she has termed sexist. She wasn't entirely vague either, because she refered specifically to younger hikers. I think we should give the lady an opportunity to provide some clarity without being presumptious. I do not doubt she has legitimate concerns. I would like to know what they are, particularly because she is of a younger generation than myself and I have a daughter that is considerably younger than her. It is good to learn what you can to break down these barriers.
It is true that sometimes "sexist" just means "shy, awkward, and unpopular", whereas some real sexist ******** can be extremely popular with some ladies, but that might be a discussion for a different thread.
redparade
05-08-2010, 15:05
Toolshed, JAK - here is an example from my own experiences: a group of 20-somethings in a shelter at night dropping jokes and anecdotes at the expense of women. This ranges from sexual objectification, to general negativity (regarding things like women's intelligence or mental toughness, for example), to putting down a particular (absent) female hiker. It's definitely used as a tool to establish comraderie. But to clarify: although it is difficult to really join the conversation in these situations, my issue doesn't have to do with feeling secluded - I'm not particularly talkative in general.
bulldog - yes, sexism works both ways. Ideally, no individual would treat any other individual as inferior because of gender (or race, or average mileage, or education level...). It's frustrating in all instances.
Give the ladies some room, guys. Or dudes.
Toolshed
05-08-2010, 15:11
Even though the OP was vague, I think she deserves the benefit of doubt.
Hope you aren't referring to me JAK. I am just trying to understand this better - So when someone brings the subject up, I think it is fair to ask for more details or information.
I don't think I am sexist (though my frame of reference leans to the insensitive side), but I am sure others might, both male and female....:D
I recall there was a thinly veiled attack on men from a woman in this thread 2-3 years ago - She had a lot of folks thinking she was the victim, but I think a few started to wise up to her after a bit.....Last I recalled she ended up making her trailname one that means a bizarre sexual act just before she quit the trail. But I think her issues were much broader than this one subject. Anyways, I digress. Apologies......:)
PS Redparade - This isn't meant to be comparative to you.... or an accusation towards you in any manner...
Toolshed
05-08-2010, 15:15
Thanks Redparade, I understand where you are coming from now. Each on thier own probably wouldn't be so bold to say the stuff they were saying, but once crowd mentality takes over or safety in the crowd rears its head, their manners tend to 0 out quickly.
Unfortunately it isn't just sexism, as it happens to those of the same sex, or simply those who are different....
redparade
05-08-2010, 15:18
Some more clarification: I'm not referring to a guy checking out or hitting on a woman. These behaviors go both ways on the trail, I think, and the appropiateness can't be judged in a general way.
My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been dissapointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.
Just wanted to say thanks to redparade for the clarity. As an older father I've been out of the loop for awhile, and it is helpful to know what sort of crap my daughter might still be up against as she gets older. I agree though, with GGS2, that this is a topic best left for the ladies, otherwise it would have been posted in the open forum. Sorry for the intrusion.
No I wasn't Toolshed. Your post jumped in as I was writing mine. Sorry about that.
Oh! I didn't mean to imply that most men on the trail aren't great - most are! I hope I didn't come across as combative :)
But my handful of experiences with less respectable guys have been really startling. I think they make a big impression on me because I never expect to encounter any sexism at all on the trail (I know this is naive to think... you find all kinds in all places)...
I assume the guys you are talking about are the same jerks that we all try to avoid. I have spent lots of nights at shelters and have not seen much sexism on the trail. I have run into general bad behavior on a few occasions. When I come across people on the trail I do not feel comfortable with I either hike on or set up my tent away from them.
If this is an open discussion I would add that hiking a trail together should be a great opportunity for men and women to break down gender barriers, so it is a shame when a group of young men make a women feel excluded in this way, or any other way, but particularly with vulgarity, whether severe or not. Perhaps they thought they were providing some entertainment. Men need to think twice. I've done this sort of thing. Not good.
RollingStone
05-08-2010, 16:02
My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been dissapointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.
On the same token, as an older male, I've dealt with younger women who seem to think I'm "Old" and they can do or act in whatever manner they wish. Noisy, disrespectful language, using the word "like" 23 Million times in their conversation with me, glazed over shocked look because I hiked 18 miles that day. ETC ;)
I personally think there are more men on the trail with good attitudes about women than those without and I for one am personally sorry you had to experience that on the trail. I'm sure it was displeasing. Best you can do is ignore it and keep on keepin on!
double d
05-08-2010, 16:06
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
I know this is the women's forum, but please define "sexism". If I don't hire someone because of their gender, certainly that is wrong and is sexism. But again, define the term and that might help you.
Jonnycat
05-08-2010, 16:13
Some more clarification: I'm not referring to a guy checking out or hitting on a woman. These behaviors go both ways on the trail, I think, and the appropiateness can't be judged in a general way.
Thank you for your clarification, and I agree with that. Owing to where I grew up I have developed a very healthy skepticism for any prouncement of "isms".
[/quote]My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been dissapointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.[/QUOTE]
Hierarchical power plays, of which sexism is but one, are one of the (many) hallmarks of ignorance, and are not limited to gender. Regardless, they do suck, as do those who engage in the more blatant forms of them.
Toolshed, JAK - here is an example from my own experiences: a group of 20-somethings in a shelter at night dropping jokes and anecdotes at the expense of women. This ranges from sexual objectification, to general negativity (regarding things like women's intelligence or mental toughness, for example), to putting down a particular (absent) female hiker. It's definitely used as a tool to establish comraderie. But to clarify: although it is difficult to really join the conversation in these situations, my issue doesn't have to do with feeling secluded - I'm not particularly talkative in general.
bulldog - yes, sexism works both ways. Ideally, no individual would treat any other individual as inferior because of gender (or race, or average mileage, or education level...). It's frustrating in all instances.
good lord, why would you want to?
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 17:51
Toolshed, JAK - here is an example from my own experiences: a group of 20-somethings in a shelter at night dropping jokes and anecdotes at the expense of women. This ranges from sexual objectification, to general negativity (regarding things like women's intelligence or mental toughness, for example), to putting down a particular (absent) female hiker. It's definitely used as a tool to establish comraderie. But to clarify: although it is difficult to really join the conversation in these situations, my issue doesn't have to do with feeling secluded - I'm not particularly talkative in general.
bulldog - yes, sexism works both ways. Ideally, no individual would treat any other individual as inferior because of gender (or race, or average mileage, or education level...). It's frustrating in all instances.
That's just really well said girl . . . nice work. . . :sun:sun:sun
warraghiyagey
05-08-2010, 17:53
I know this is the women's forum, but please define "sexism". If I don't hire someone because of their gender, certainly that is wrong and is sexism. But again, define the term and that might help you.
She already know what the term means. . . you apparently don't and might beg out of the conversation until you actually do. . . a hint. . . it'll take more work than you're imagining right now. . .
I think he just didn't read down far enough. It happens.
double d
05-09-2010, 02:46
Good discussion on this important topic-Jak is correct, somehow I didn't read far enough down.
Interesting topic, actually. I started hiking when I was 18, and there were far less people on the trail, and I think, an even smaller percentage of women on the trail in those long-ago days. Now, I'm old enough to be Redparade's mom. When I was her age, I definitely attracted more attention. There just weren't many solo female hikers on trails in those days. And, of course, everyone warned me that I'd be harassed/raped/killed on the trail. What actually happened was that, with very rare exception, the men were very protective of me. I think that in the early days of my hiking experiences I actually discovered the true meaning of the word "gentleman"; in a place where there were no literal doors to open for me! Now that I'm older and the bloom is off the rose, I'm treated more like the mother figure. Now and then, a group of young men will engage in behavior or conversation on the trail that would fall into the "sexism" category in my book. Generally speaking, my mom-like presence or a well placed mom-look, will cause them to moderate their behavior. Occasionally, I run across people, male and female, who are just completely insensitive. I usually just move on, if possible, or keep to myself for the evening. Occasionally, I will insert some motherly opinions into the conversation. I would have to say that these days I observe much more of a sense of equality on the trail. I can't even think of an instance in the past 10 years or so where someone has questioned whether or not I'm capable of living on the trail simply because I'm female. Thirty years ago, that was a common question. I was often asked how I learned to camp, did I have experience, did I need help, do I know how to set up my tent, was I afraid to be in the woods, etc.
I don't think that any of this is different from what generally goes on in the paved world. No matter what stage of life we're in, there seems to be some sort of -ism that is applied to us. We have to set our own standards of behavior and learn to deal with it or remove ourselves from situations which are truly dangerous or are too offensive to tolerate.
Oddly, I hadn't really thought about this before... not in terms of how this has affected me differently over the last 30 years.
Slo-go'en
05-09-2010, 14:05
I wish I was as strong a hiker, as good a cook, as good a camper and had as much endurance as many of the woman I have meet on the trail.
warraghiyagey
05-09-2010, 14:44
Good discussion on this important topic-Jak is correct, somehow I didn't read far enough down.
:):)
I wish I was as strong a hiker, as good a cook, as good a camper and had as much endurance as many of the woman I have meet on the trail.
Wow. . . . well said. . . :sun
Lellers, Nice post. . . :sun
What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?
I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.
One of the blessings about getting older is that you stop being a target of stupid boys. At the same time you start to vanish from their eyes and either become invisible or just a person. It's liberating as a woman. I have heard from some older men that they do not like the feeling of becoming invisible, calling it becoming a ghost man or something like that.
I find myself feeling more and more sorry for men. They have it harder. Women are becoming better educated than them and there are less places in the work world for them, especially if they didn't apply themselves in school, which they do frequently because it's not "cool." We're going to have a whole generation or two of men who have a hard time getting a job. I suspect some of their rude comments are partly an attempt to establish dominance in a world that's disempowering them more and more.
sarah1021
08-31-2010, 19:37
Just wanted to put in my 2c, as i was nervous about this issue prior to leaving.
i'm a young, fairly attractive (at least i get alot of male attention) small, female. so yes, i was nervous.
but while on the trail, I WAS FLOORED.
EVERY guy treated me like a sister, a daughter, and/or an equal. basically like just another hiker. there were no snide comments, no remarks, whistles, or anything else that would have made me feel uncomfortable. in fact, many were protective in a brotherly way, and warned me about potential dangers. (some may see that as sexist- i do not. i see that as decency.)
I actually started mentioning this to some of the men i met later on in the trip, how i was so very impressed and thankful to their sex for treating me like a hiker and not like ... well, anything less.
so here's one more chance for me to say THANK YOU to all the men i met on the trail! You helped me feel comfortable, safe, and allowed me to enjoy the trail even more!
~Nuthatch
My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been disappointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.
Since it appears the male point of view is being welcomed in this thread I will ask a question.
If you don't mind, where did this happen? Early on in the guy's hike? If that is the case, they will probably be a bit more deferential later in the hike, after they have been passed up by, out hiked by, left behind hiding from the weather in a shelter by, and generally been proven the wuss by any number of the women hikers on the trail.
I know this from my personal experience over the years. Many, many, many women are stronger hikers than the men they hang out with. The guys may be able to carry more weight more easily, but that generally means nothing in the long run.
Daydream Believer
08-31-2010, 22:23
Just wanted to put in my 2c, as i was nervous about this issue prior to leaving.
i'm a young, fairly attractive (at least i get alot of male attention) small, female. so yes, i was nervous.
but while on the trail, I WAS FLOORED.
EVERY guy treated me like a sister, a daughter, and/or an equal. basically like just another hiker. there were no snide comments, no remarks, whistles, or anything else that would have made me feel uncomfortable. in fact, many were protective in a brotherly way, and warned me about potential dangers. (some may see that as sexist- i do not. i see that as decency.)
I actually started mentioning this to some of the men i met later on in the trip, how i was so very impressed and thankful to their sex for treating me like a hiker and not like ... well, anything less.
so here's one more chance for me to say THANK YOU to all the men i met on the trail! You helped me feel comfortable, safe, and allowed me to enjoy the trail even more!
~Nuthatch
Nuthatch...I think we've met very briefly back in May. You passed me (flying) going up to Blue Mtn Shelter in Georgia and we chatted a few minutes...we commented that we were the only woman we'd each seen that day! Did you make it back home? I have thought of you several times. You stopped in Blue Mtn Shelter and then went on to the Cheese Factory site for the night. Everyone was really impressed with your fitness and strength as we were all tired and ready to stop.
Please excuse me if you are not the same Nuthatch! :o
On this topic, I found the same treatment out there as you did. While I'm nowhere near as young or as attractive as Nuthatch, I was always treated with respect. Several of the men seemed to watch out for me a bit and I did appreciate their kindness. I made several very good friends that I'm still in touch with. On that trip I saw 4 women total in 7 days on the AT in May.
Funny enough on this same trip, there was an attractive young woman hiker at a shelter later on who undressed down her bra and panties right in front of every one at the shlter with no consideration for their feelings or warning to look the other way. Then she paraded around like this for a while before getting dressed and it was really hard for the guys to not look.
Several of the men I was camping with commented to me later that they felt it was inappropriate and inconsiderate of her to do that for their feelings being out on the trail for so long without their spouses. I think respect and decency has to go both ways. We women cannot expect it if we don't show it also.
Sierra Echo
08-31-2010, 22:27
Fight the power!
http://i40.tinypic.com/10rmzhw.jpg
None of those Hooters waitresses actually have hooters. If i was a man who went to eat there, I would feel cheated. As a woman with a huge chest, I would just feel superior! LMAO
coyote13
08-31-2010, 22:50
as a man in my 50's I am amazed at some of the things that pass for 'banter' both on and off the trail.
I was raised to treat all people with respect, and to curtail foul language when women or children are present.
All that being said I have been around and even joined in (showing my rapier wit) anod had fun in the telling of some pretty risque jokes and conversation only to see a woman that had been participating get all huffy when SHE was ready to quit.
I think that in most cases if you are offended and make it known (nicely) 90% of people will accommodate you. of the other 10% just leave them in your dust.
IronGutsTommy
09-01-2010, 00:05
unfortunately, sbhikes shows that sexism can go both ways with her overly broad generalization of men, to the point of a stereotype. Theres definitely some neanderthal men out there, and they drive us grown men as crazy as they do women, Im sure. Leave em in your dust, where they will undoubtedly push each other into the bushes and compare., um...sizes.
IronGutsTommy
09-01-2010, 00:07
...and likely find themselves ALL lacking...
I hate to say it, but to add my 2 cents, I had to think back to the few incidents of so-called sexism I've experienced professionally, because I've never encountered any while hiking.
I have worked in male dominated fields (been an MP and civilian LEO) before becoming a stay at home mom. I dealt with crude jokes, derogatory comments, and wonderful old gentlemen who were determined to watch out for me. Technically, ALL of those probably qualify as sexism. No one ever said anything negative about my job, because for a modern woman, being a police officer or a mom are both valid options. But how can a guy hold on to some sense of male identity in a world where what it means to be a guy is changing just as much as what it means to be a woman?
For boys growing up, the world seems to expect them to become one big contradicton. Women want to be treated like equals but still expect men to act like old fashioned gentlemen, but the old fashioned "gentlemen" attitude comes from the notion that women are to be respected, sheltered, and protected. The world expects men to be emotional rocks but also be sensitive. Tough enough to hold their own in a fight but diplomatic enough to never get confrontational. Men are expected to treat woman as full equals, but they're also expected to be the main bread winner for their families, pay for dates, and protect their wives/girlfriends.
I'm not trying to excuse rude behavior, by any means, but just to suggest that rude behavior might be the manifestation of the euqal treatment women expect. Or it might just be because younger guys really have no idea how they should act around women because they're given so many contradictory messages. Personally, I'm glad I'm a girl-less confusing, over all.
One of the blessings about getting older is that you stop being a target of stupid boys. At the same time you start to vanish from their eyes and either become invisible or just a person. It's liberating as a woman. I have heard from some older men that they do not like the feeling of becoming invisible, calling it becoming a ghost man or something like that.
I found this post kind of funny because I've been noticing that myself more and more. Part of life I guess. When I'm at a gathering of some sort I have to distance myself from younger folks more often, including the twenty somethings, and just hang out with the older crowd. Sometimes you can be included, talking about something in common like hiking or sailing or whatever, but if its a mixed group and they start talking about other stuff and interacting in certain ways you have to move away and let them do there thing or it just gets creepy. That's cool. It's ok to act like a fool now and then, within the normal realm of sexual perversion and idiosy, but only around friends and people of your own age group. Quite often sexism is just normal behaviour, but with the wrong social group, or perhaps just the wrong time and place. Something to keep in mind when dealing with older generations than yourself also. Give them respect and be sure and include them, the way you would like to be treated if you live to be that age. My mother-in-law is in her eighties now, and I find that generation a real hoot. Sure twenties and younger can make you feel young and are easy to look at, but older generations are just as much fun and often more interesting, and just as easy to look at if you keep them smiling. Their pretty hard to creep out, which is a real plus, and you can learn alot from them. I like to ask them about WWII and growing up in the Depression and stuff. If you can get a story out of them, and you usually can, they are worth hearing even for the second or third time around.
The only real social sin is bad timing.
If you know someone well enough, an older person I mean, like 80s, sometimes its very interesting if you ask them about stuff that borders on intimacy, like what courting was like in the 1930s, or how much sexism there was in schools and workplaces in the 1940s or 1950s and 1960s. Depending on how well you know the person you can get some real insight on real history, not just the stuff you read in books or see in old movies. That makes great conversation also, asking about old movies. My folks both died when I was younger, so I find it interesting to turn to folks from their generation and get some new insight into what times were like. Gives me a different perspective on what my mother and father might have been like.
That makes a good conversation also, asking older folks what they thought of certain movies when they first came out in the movie theatres. My mother always had a few stories that revolved around movie theatres directly or indirectly. Important part of culture back then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnnS9spo_3k
IronGutsTommy
09-01-2010, 14:14
amen to that jaxAj..i dont know how many times ive been yelled at or protested against for simply holding a door for a lady..they dont seem to mind me giving my seat up to them tho.. my number one gentleman pet peeve...double doors.. its impossible to hold open both sets of doors without having to fly past the lady in order to reach the second set in time!
seriously? what girl would get upset with that? i love it!
Double doors. That is a funny one. What I do is for a younger woman I usually have to settle for being a traditional gentleman on the first door, and a modern gentleman for the second. For an older lady, they usually wait and let me by to open the second door as well. :)
daddytwosticks
09-01-2010, 15:56
If I get to a door first, I try to hold it open for anybody...male, female, young , or old. That's just manners. All bets are off, though, if it's a door to an all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant. :)
that's not just older ladies, jak.
alverhootzt
09-12-2010, 13:32
hmmm...am i the only one who thought this thread was hijacked?
IronGutsTommy
09-13-2010, 06:01
yes you are the only one
skinewmexico
09-13-2010, 17:35
Worst sexism I see daily is the portrayal of every male as a complete and total buffoon in every television commercial.
ShoelessWanderer
09-17-2010, 11:48
Honestly, I deal with more sexism off the trail than on. The few times I have had "awkward" encounters with a male on the trail, the other male hikers around me are the first to jump to my defense...whether I know them or not.
Wise Old Owl
09-17-2010, 14:57
Honest, I thought this was the women' section! Look at all the guy posts here... Nuts.
Sexism from immature boys is unwelcome and naive. This is too funny. Imagine a young man pink blazing and hitting on girls on the trail while unshaved, unbathed, and full of himself... Yea if that really works, I need to make a change... Woo
Save the planet - it's the only one with chocolate.
Damn I killed the thread again! Sept 18, 2010
StormBird
10-26-2010, 02:00
To the guys - Let the girls have their forum back! Jeebus!
To the girls - I agree with what alot of women have posted already, that most of the guys that you meet on trail are very good people that usually look out for solo girls.
My only complaint is that there are not more women on trail. Being surrounded by guys, acting like guys for six months really got to me. I guess it would be the same way around if the ratios were reversed and there were 90% women on trail and only 10% men. :rolleyes::D
Anyways, I say, find a cool groups of chicks in the beginning and stick with em'.
alverhootzt
10-26-2010, 12:32
yes you are the only one
Maybe you had me confused with a lifetime of someone else?
I don't think anyone was saying sexism is a problem of anywhere close to the majority. Personally, I think backpackers as a group are far more considerate, decent people on the whole than the general population and people around me are sick of hearing it! But sexism does exist and it was a question posed by a woman to other women. My only point.
hmmm...am i the only one who thought this thread was hijacked?
No, you're not the only one :)
ShoelessWanderer
10-27-2010, 16:21
My only complaint is that there are not more women on trail.
That's my personal goal in life...to get more females on the trail! Even if just for weekend events. Saddens me when I do group events and there are 2-3 girls and 10 guys. The guys are great, but some more females would be awesome!
sir limpsalot
10-30-2010, 08:32
But sexism does exist and it was a question posed by a woman to other women. My only point.
I believe the forum is for "woman's issues only"-not "women only" and the thread was an open question to "anyone" asking for opinions/experiences with sexism. Is it really believed only women are qualified to understand sexism?
Walkie Talkie
10-30-2010, 09:14
One time I offered some kind of assistance to my female hiking partner. I would have offered the same thing to anyone male or female and she got offended. Said something like "do you think I need help just because I'm a girl?" I wish I could remember what I offered but it was mundane and meaningless. It was just a kind jesture I would have offered anyone. This stuck with me for the rest of the trail and I was much more careful about just being kind to a female hiker. I didn't want to offend in any way or want them to think I was hitting on them. Now I hate girls....Just kiddin, love my wife.
Lillianp
11-06-2010, 22:36
I believe the forum is for "woman's issues only"-not "women only" and the thread was an open question to "anyone" asking for opinions/experiences with sexism. Is it really believed only women are qualified to understand sexism?
No, of course not! Discussions of sexism in any corner of the world should happen and I'm glad it is happening here and is including input from both/all genders.
A wide variety of perspectives-so long as they are open-minded and willing to listen-is imperative to successful discourse, change etc about sexism and related issues.
(Sorry. I got a degree in women's studies...so usually anything I say on this subject ends up sounding all proper)
I hate to say it, but to add my 2 cents, I had to think back to the few incidents of so-called sexism I've experienced professionally, because I've never encountered any while hiking.
I have worked in male dominated fields (been an MP and civilian LEO) before becoming a stay at home mom. I dealt with crude jokes, derogatory comments, and wonderful old gentlemen who were determined to watch out for me. Technically, ALL of those probably qualify as sexism. No one ever said anything negative about my job, because for a modern woman, being a police officer or a mom are both valid options. But how can a guy hold on to some sense of male identity in a world where what it means to be a guy is changing just as much as what it means to be a woman?
For boys growing up, the world seems to expect them to become one big contradicton. Women want to be treated like equals but still expect men to act like old fashioned gentlemen, but the old fashioned "gentlemen" attitude comes from the notion that women are to be respected, sheltered, and protected. The world expects men to be emotional rocks but also be sensitive. Tough enough to hold their own in a fight but diplomatic enough to never get confrontational. Men are expected to treat woman as full equals, but they're also expected to be the main bread winner for their families, pay for dates, and protect their wives/girlfriends.
I'm not trying to excuse rude behavior, by any means, but just to suggest that rude behavior might be the manifestation of the euqal treatment women expect. Or it might just be because younger guys really have no idea how they should act around women because they're given so many contradictory messages. Personally, I'm glad I'm a girl-less confusing, over all.
I've been avoiding the woman's forum like the plague after getting roasted (I deserved it :D) by suggesting that we needed a men's forum where we could talk about "men stuff".
I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head. I tend to be the "father figure" when I hike with younger women, and I like to make sure they don't receive any unwanted attention from males of their age. Some like it, others think I should mind my own business and let them take care of themselves.
Neither men nor women are "all alike" - thank God! Life is so much more interesting that way :).
Chillfactor
11-17-2010, 21:51
I'm 58 and was worried about sexism and being older. Sexism wasn't as issue with me but many of the hikers were young enough to be my kids and sometimes I felt a bit maternal. I had to remind myself they didn't need any advise and were just hikers like me.
I think I avoided sexism by holding my own and by not asking for help. I didn't want to be seen as an incapable woman whom should've stayed home. A good attitude and sense of humor help. Just hike and *#&^% the idiots. Ignore them and push on. Pitch your tent to avoid unpleasantness and adjust your hiking pace so you won't be around them again.
ATsawyer
11-18-2010, 17:59
Example - A new woman volunteers on my trail crew for a highline project. Large rocks Griphoisted high, belayed down the wire, and stacked on a landing. Some parts of this operation -- belay, cinching the straps, retrieving the running block, etc. do not require a lot of upper body strength; fully tensioning the highline, wrestling the rock on the landing, flipping the stone into position, etc. does. I am much more likely to give the new woman a less rigorous job to start than I would a new man.
Some women can do all these jobs, but on average they struggle with heavy weights, so I will assign them less physically demanding tasks until I can judge their ability.
Someone watching me make work assignments might think me sexist when in fact I'm being cautious.
When guys are on the women's forum here ( which of course they are regularly as this is a huge, irresistible PEEK INSIDE THE FORUM sign that is hung out)..I tend to not post, TMI IMHO for some subjects.
This topic might be best in the straightforward forum, it really is an issue that is not specifically for women - but when in the women's forum I assume that women want to hear from women! (There are guys out there who won't venture in here....OK, maybe I am giving too much credit, but one can hope!)
Many good comments and perspectives though!
drifters quest
11-18-2010, 22:16
I experienced quite a bit on the trail. Chances are when you get in a group its gonna be mostly guys.. For me, most of the time it was all guys. The guys after a while ignore your presence and start saying things that really shouldn't be said and that I found offensive. Though most of them were harmless, a lot of the guys were a little bit too friendly as well. I ended up leaving a certain group on the trail because I got sick of it.
As a female you did have many advantages though- always room in a shelter full of guys (no matter how full!), easy hitches, people watch out for you, better trail magic (more likely to be invited to a house for a night). It did get annoying when all the guys told me I could get whatever I wanted because I was a girl, it helps yeah, but that's not all of it.