View Full Version : shelter rule?
while I was section hiking last week I came upon High Point shelter in NJ with 5 boy scouts inside. Later a thru-hiker came along and said that there was a rule that the boy scouts were not allowed to stay in a shelter. The kids did move out and set up their tents. I told the thru hiker that there was no such rule. Who is right???
Panzer
Lone Wolf
05-27-2010, 15:41
you are right. there is no such rule. first come, first served. the thru hiker is a jerk
you are right. there is no such rule. first come, first served. the thru hiker is a jerk
I was thinking the same thing, definite jerk...
you are right. there is no such rule. first come, first served. the thru hiker is a jerk
Amen! That is just not right! The TH should have moved into his own tent if he didn't wan't to bunk with the kids.
Jack Tarlin
05-27-2010, 15:48
Correctamundo. The thru-hiker was a moosecock. Thru-hikers don't have special rights to shelters in Jersey or anywhere else, and any thru-hiker that deigns cop an attitude like this needs to be corrected immediately, hopefully by his fellow thru-hikers.
yeah, thru-hiker is a jerk, but he did the scouts a favor. i try to discourage my scouts from staying in dirty wooden boxes. however, they and the scout master think shelters are cool. so to spare them i try to schedule our hikes so that we camp where there are no shelters.
toothpick
05-27-2010, 15:53
Was on a section hike last year in Virginia and each time we came to a shelter where there were Boy Scouts they would move out of the shelter even though we didn't ask them to. All were very courteous towards us. Suppose they didn't care for old guy snoring or something!
Shouldn't boyscouts be learning how to rough it in the wilderness? A shelter isn't wilderness.
Jack Tarlin
05-27-2010, 15:58
By that logic, thru-hikers should be roughing it too, especially by Virginia. If you demand a right to stay in a shelter, you're a bigtime candy-ass, and this applies to anyone, tho especially to "thru-hikers" who should ostensibly know better by then.
Jack Tarlin
05-27-2010, 16:00
Re-phrase.
Yeah, they should have this stuff clear by Virginia. But to still be copping attitudes in New Jersey? Pitiful. These guys should be beaten like rented mules.
Wise Old Owl
05-27-2010, 16:01
Just goes to show what a TH know's he can get away with. On the other hand the boys should be in tents!
Too Funny,
beaten like rented mules.
You are a mean person. Just because a mule is rented don't give you the right to beat him.
Shouldn't boyscouts be learning how to rough it in the wilderness? A shelter isn't wilderness.
a tent is not roughing it... a dirty wooden box is roughing it
wcgornto
05-27-2010, 16:10
It is a rule in some places. Some shelters have group tenting areas and have signs within the shelters stating that groups are required to leave the shelters and use the group tenting areas when the shelter is over capacity. I specifically recall Piazza Rock shelter in Maine as being this way. Granted, very few shelters have such stipulations, but some of them do.
The Old Fhart
05-27-2010, 16:17
There seems to be some truth in what the thru-hiker said. If you check out the ATC site (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805511/k.A4B3/Groups_on_the_AT.htm) concerning "Groups On The A.T." this is what they say to groups:
"Groups are welcome on the Trail, but bear in mind that the Trail is narrow and campsites are small. Please follow these guidelines as you plan your outings. ....When staying at Trail shelters where tenting is permitted, pitch tents nearby, leaving the shelter for solo hikers."
Note this isn't a regulation or a law but as a rule groups are advised to plan to camp and not use shelters I almost always tent so this would have been a non-problem for me but others who know the guidelines can bring it up, as the thru-hiker did in this case.
There seems to be some truth in what the thru-hiker said. If you check out the ATC site (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805511/k.A4B3/Groups_on_the_AT.htm) concerning "Groups On The A.T." this is what they say to groups:
"Groups are welcome on the Trail, but bear in mind that the Trail is narrow and campsites are small. Please follow these guidelines as you plan your outings. ....When staying at Trail shelters where tenting is permitted, pitch tents nearby, leaving the shelter for solo hikers."
Note this isn't a regulation or a law but as a rule groups are advised to plan to camp and not use shelters I almost always tent so this would have been a non-problem for me but others who know the guidelines can bring it up, as the thru-hiker did in this case.
cool! now i can let our scoutmaster know precisely why we must tent. but that does not excuse the attitude of the thru-hiker.
The thru hiker had no right to ask (or tell) the scouts that they had to move. First come, first served.
On the other hand, I have hiked in groups (Scouts and otherwise) before, and there is also an unwritten, common courtesy that groups should NOT plan to monopolize shelters or other trail facilities. This used to be pointed out by ATC I believe, also by several of the parks/forests through which the trail passes.
This latter is probably why the other Scout groups that folks have mentioned moved out when other hikers arrived. Common Courtesy and good manners.
Some of my most fun nights on the trail have been with Scout troops - one in particular that comes to mind was a stormy night at Monster Rock Shelter in VA - Great time scaring the Scouts (in a friendly, fun way).
the thru hiker is a jerk
I don't know about that, but if we have the complete picture he strikes me as self-serving, at least somewhat uninformed and not particularly tactful.
Actually, there is a BSA rule that scouts are not to share sleeping quarters with unrelated adults. So, according to BSA rules, if 5 scouts are in the shelter the only adult sleeping with them would have to be the parent or legal guardian of all five of the boys.
Since it's possible that an unrelated adult will come along and want to stay in the shelter, I think it's best if scouts don't stay in shelters.
Actually, there is a BSA rule that scouts are not to share sleeping quarters with unrelated adults. So, according to BSA rules, if 5 scouts are in the shelter the only adult sleeping with them would have to be the parent or legal guardian of all five of the boys.
Since it's possible that an unrelated adult will come along and want to stay in the shelter, I think it's best if scouts don't stay in shelters.
Yepper. Another reason why I avoid shelter sites when I am hiking with the scouts.
One of the scout camps we visit has shelters. I don't object to the boys sleeping in them there as long as they don't object to me sleeping in my tent or hammock. :)
Graywolf
05-27-2010, 17:55
There seems to be some truth in what the thru-hiker said. If you check out the ATC site (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805511/k.A4B3/Groups_on_the_AT.htm)concerning "Groups On The A.T." this is what they say to groups:
"Groups are welcome on the Trail, but bear in mind that the Trail is narrow and campsites are small. Please follow these guidelines as you plan your outings. ....When staying at Trail shelters where tenting is permitted, pitch tents nearby, leaving the shelter for solo hikers."
Note this isn't a regulation or a law but as a rule groups are advised to plan to camp and not use shelters I almost always tent so this would have been a non-problem for me but others who know the guidelines can bring it up, as the thru-hiker did in this case.
I have never seen problems with Boy Scouts, but have read many times in the past on Trail Journals, where a church group would come to a shelter all ready occupied by a thru hiker and the group would demand the hiker to leave because they all ready had the shelter 'reserved'. All the hikers could do is pack up and move out. And I read journals where this happened as it was raining..
Graywolf
Hurricane Bob
05-27-2010, 18:19
Another perspective...as a long time Scoutmaster and backpacker, I try to impress consideration for others on the scouts (we are supposed to be friendly, courteous, cheerful, helpful, etc) that they should be prepared to tent camp so that others like thru hikers can use the shelters. The scouts generally only trek for a weekend or a week, while thru hikers are on a mission. Also, anytime you get 5 Boy Scouts in a shelter, the fun factor for others is sometimes reduced :-)
Blissful
05-27-2010, 18:26
The thru hiker had no right to ask (or tell) the scouts that they had to move. First come, first served.
On the other hand, I have hiked in groups (Scouts and otherwise) before, and there is also an unwritten, common courtesy that groups should NOT plan to monopolize shelters or other trail facilities. This used to be pointed out by ATC I believe, also by several of the parks/forests through which the trail passes.
This latter is probably why the other Scout groups that folks have mentioned moved out when other hikers arrived. Common Courtesy and good manners.
Some of my most fun nights on the trail have been with Scout troops - one in particular that comes to mind was a stormy night at Monster Rock Shelter in VA - Great time scaring the Scouts (in a friendly, fun way).
I've seen bigger thru hiker groups then five boys in a shelter. (we had ten in our "group" in GSMNP that trickled in). Or the thru hike group that came into Jenkins a few weeks back when I was there. Or the 12 I saw in the space of an hour in southern VA. They are the biggest groups out there.
Blissful
05-27-2010, 18:31
The scouts generally only trek for a weekend or a week, while thru hikers are on a mission. Also, anytime you get 5 Boy Scouts in a shelter, the fun factor for others is sometimes reduced :-)
Thru hikers should still not get special courtesy. They are in no better "mission" in life then just walking for fun. I got the evil eye as a section hiker in a shelter on a rainy day in April 'cause I didn't start from Springer.
bye the way the kids did clear out right away as soon as the thru hiker told/asked them. But I think it was partly because he had a very abrupt tell-it-like-it-is manner about himself. I believe the kids thought "the parties over" the mean guy is here so they packed up and moved down to the group area where the 3 scout masters were already set up. These kids were mostly about age 14 but the oldest one was 17.
Panzer
BigFoot2002
05-27-2010, 18:48
The long distance hiker was a complete jerk, and wrong.
The scout leader was not teaching all of the woodcraft he could have, by showing them how to tent, etc.
And there was a kid on my high school wrestling team we called moosecock. It was not an insult. We weren't insulting the kid we called tripod either.
The long distance hiker was a complete jerk, and wrong.
The scout leader was not teaching all of the woodcraft he could have, by showing them how to tent, etc.
And there was a kid on my high school wrestling team we called moosecock. It was not an insult. We weren't insulting the kid we called tripod either.
Scouts usually camp 9-12 times per year. The occasional camp in a shelter trick is not going to affect their woodcraft skills. [I don't think they should be in shelters for other, more important reasons.]
The Old Fhart
05-27-2010, 19:33
Hurricane Bob had posted this boy scout 'trip report' in another thread and I thought I'd post parts of his post here because it shows that scouts, with good leaders, are very responsible. They managed what turn what many would have considered a bad situation into a positive learning experience.
"Trail was well marked and easy to follow to Darlington Shelter. Lots of relatively flat and open area around this shelter to set up tents. There was water in the spring by the shelter the night we were there. (05/07/10)
Only issue at the shelter were the two local guys who brought up a case of beer (w/ ice!) and some weed to smoke. Besides having an open fire when it is prohibited, chopping wood at 11:30 PM, and leaving broken glass in the fire ring, they were pleasant enough guys. (Yes, we camped as far away from them as we could). This experience provided us with a great opportunity to discuss LNT principles, the environment, and common courtesy. Wasnt really a bad experience...
...........
We arrived at the Cove Mountain Shelter around 5 PM. We were joined by 3 thru-hiking sisters and one section hiker with a dog. There is no flat ground for tents here, but a couple of us set up tents so there was room in the shelter. ..."
Way to go!:banana
BigFoot2002
05-27-2010, 20:08
Would they learn more by sleeping in a shelter or tenting?
Please share with us why they really should be tenting, tinman.
Would they learn more by sleeping in a shelter or tenting?
Please share with us why they really should be tenting, tinman.
Learn?? Okay. If they slept in a shelter, they might just learn why we bought them tents - no filth, mice, bugs or other vermin to disturb them.
Actually, there is a BSA rule that scouts are not to share sleeping quarters with unrelated adults. So, according to BSA rules, if 5 scouts are in the shelter the only adult sleeping with them would have to be the parent or legal guardian of all five of the boys.
Since it's possible that an unrelated adult will come along and want to stay in the shelter, I think it's best if scouts don't stay in shelters.
The rule as I understood it applied to tent camping. A shelter is different from a tent because has an open side and anyone can see what is going on inside.
Panzer
Appalachian Tater
05-27-2010, 20:26
Actually, there is a BSA rule that scouts are not to share sleeping quarters with unrelated adults. So, according to BSA rules, if 5 scouts are in the shelter the only adult sleeping with them would have to be the parent or legal guardian of all five of the boys.
Since it's possible that an unrelated adult will come along and want to stay in the shelter, I think it's best if scouts don't stay in shelters.
That's only for tenting. The full rules are more complicated than that and in a shelter it looks like it would be allowed as long as there are no female hikers staying in it. Looks like the adults also might have to put up a temporary barrier such as a tarp or sheet to separate them from the kids. Since groups are also discouraged from staying in shelters in the first place, it seems like the easiest thing would be for scouts to avoid them.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx
If a religious group tried to tell me they had the shelter reserved I would ask to see the written reservation on the appropriate letterhead or form AND the receipt for payment. Then I would tell them I was getting ready to bathe and change my clothes in the shelter and ask if to borrow soap. :rolleyes:
Wise Old Owl
05-27-2010, 20:43
Wow AT I had no idea that someone would look that up... thanks for the URL!
stranger
05-27-2010, 20:51
The reason why those boyscouts were there was for one reason and one reason only...a shelter.
The reason why the thru-hiker was there and asked them to move was for one reason and one reason only...a shelter.
The incentive...is the shelter, remove the incentive, remove the problem.
And this thru-hiker does sound like a tool!
General Fireball
05-27-2010, 21:02
I've come upon shelters that were being monopolized by church and scout groups, and I would never even consider asking them to clear out. While I agree it's something like bad manners for such groups to to use the entire shelter, it's also the responsibility of any hiker to carry shelter. Sounds like the fellow had some of the old I'm-a-thru-hiker-so-I-am-Special 'tude. . .
Lone Wolf
05-27-2010, 21:18
Shouldn't boyscouts be learning how to rough it in the wilderness? A shelter isn't wilderness.
uhhh, thru hikers should. there the ones tryin' to do the whole thing
The incentive...is the shelter, remove the incentive, remove the problem.
Shelters aren't the problem, but rather one approach to resolving the bigger issue of user impacts. Those who say get rid of shelters need to provide a viable alternative and any alternative that will work must involve education.
Shelters aren't the problem, but rather one approach to resolving the bigger issue of user impacts. Those who say get rid of shelters need to provide a viable alternative and any alternative that will work must involve education.
huh? a defined tent site serves the same purpose as a shelter... and no trees need to be sacrificed to build it.
this particular shelter did have 2 rules listed:
1) there was a big red "no fires" sign
2) and another sign said something like "all food must be kept in the bear box"
Panzer
If noone told the hiker anything you could leave it up to karma to sort him out, though I doubt that he'd see the error of his ways. Just think, maybe right after he told the scouts to leave, he left his food sack in his pack and the mice chewed thru and ate and poo'd on his ramen. One can hope...:rolleyes:
huh? a defined tent site serves the same purpose as a shelter... and no trees need to be sacrificed to build it.
Functionally the two are not interchangeable. The designated tent sites some here rave about have a larger footprint and when they are moved to allow a long-used area to rehabilitate, they require the same larger footprint elsewhere. Well-designed sites could be a superior solution in some locations, but tent sites will not be the answer everywhere.
Trees are a renewable resource which have a defined lifespan. They do not live forever and cutting trees has many desireable benefits to both man, forest and wildlife.
Functionally the two are not interchangeable. The designated tent sites some here rave about have a larger footprint and when they are moved to allow a long-used area to rehabilitate, they require the same larger footprint elsewhere. Well-designed sites could be a superior solution in some locations, but tent sites will not be the answer everywhere.
Trees are a renewable resource which have a defined lifespan. They do not live forever and cutting trees has many desireable benefits to both man, forest and wildlife.
I am thinking neither has much of a real impact on much of anything other than aesthetics.
In the end it comes down to doing what is prettiest.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
wcgornto
05-28-2010, 18:50
I don't like when rain leaks through shelter roofs. I don't like the trash left behind by some inconsiderate hikers. I don't like offensive language being written in shelter registers. I don't like mice in shelters. I don't like loud snoring in shelters.
I thought I would just add to the thread drift.
I don't like when rain leaks through shelter roofs. I don't like the trash left behind by some inconsiderate hikers. I don't like offensive language being written in shelter registers. I don't like mice in shelters. I don't like loud snoring in shelters.
I thought I would just add to the thread drift.
so, are you a still a shelter sheeple?
njordan2
05-28-2010, 19:12
In my many years hiking the A.T., I have noticed that through hikers are usually the LEAST prepared for roughing it. Some do not even bring a tent and count on staying in the shelters for 3 days in a row and then count on catching a ride into a city for creature comforts.
Yearly section hikers or Boy Scouts are usually the MOST prepared. They pack everything they will need for a week and stay at the shelters if things go well.
Just because some prima donna through hiker did not prepare, he thinks he is ENTITLED to the shelter, even if it means someone who was there before him has to leave.
It is irritating to run into jerks like that.
the goat
05-28-2010, 21:55
I am always glad to meet fellow hikers like Molly. Molly is definitely a fellow hiker who totally gets the reason for hiking. Enjoying the outdoors.
Old cretins like Lone Wolf are not fellow hikers to anyone. Hence the name Lone Wolf. They annoy everyone they meet. I am glad they spend their time on the internet instead of on the trail!
let's all settle down.
if you knew LW, you wouldn't have said the above, btw.
let's not ruin a logical discussion by hijacking with the dog vs no-dog argument. there are 897 other threads that you can dredge up to do just that.:rolleyes:
I've often wondered if an AT shelter inside a National Forest is subject to the same back country camping rules. Specifically, the one that says you can establish and occupy a camp for up to 2 weeks in a National Forest. After that you must move a minimum of 1/2 mile before establishing the next one.
BTW- the dog drift here really ought to be taken to either a new thread altogether, or jump into a thread in this forum:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=439
HikerRanky
05-29-2010, 01:14
BTW- the dog drift here really ought to be taken to either a new thread altogether, or jump into a thread in this forum:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=439
And it was split off into another thread in the above forum... http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62441...