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View Full Version : Split from THru-Hikers Q&A: Dogs in the Shelter?



The Unknown Hiker
05-28-2010, 14:19
If a hiker shows up with a dog - does the dog have the right to sleep in the shelter?

This really happened:

Back in 2006 I was at a shelter with three other hikers. There was still a little bit of room left. A hiker showed up with her (large) dog. One of the other hikers told her that either she or her dog could stay in the shelter but the other person/dog had to sleep outside. She never said a word - arranged a pad for her dog in the shelter - and she cowboy camped outside for the night.

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 14:23
If a hiker shows up with a dog - does the dog have the right to sleep in the shelter?

This really happened:

Back in 2006 I was at a shelter with three other hikers. There was still a little bit of room left. A hiker showed up with her (large) dog. One of the other hikers told her that either she or her dog could stay in the shelter but the other person/dog had to sleep outside. She never said a word - arranged a pad for her dog in the shelter - and she cowboy camped outside for the night.
no dog should ever be in a shelter. period

rickb
05-28-2010, 17:05
Here is what the ATC says about that on their web site, L Wolf:


Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days.

Like it or not, dogs are as much a part of the outdoor tradition as cigars around a campfire.

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:20
no dog should ever be in a shelter. period


Why?


Panzer, do you know what TH it was?

rickb
05-28-2010, 17:24
Speciesism.

Plus they can smell as bad as a thru hiker.

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 17:25
Why?



because shelters are for humans. dogs have fleas and ticks and like to walk over your stuff and beg food and growl and sometimes bite and some folks are scared of dogs. set up a tent away from the shelter with your dog

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:30
because shelters are for humans. dogs have fleas and ticks and like to walk over your stuff and beg food and growl and sometimes bite and some folks are scared of dogs. set up a tent away from the shelter with your dog


Well that's a gigantic and ignorant generalization. People have ticks too. My dog sleeps in the shelter if there is room and he does not do any of those things, nor does he have fleas. And he gets a thorough tick check beforehand. If someone is afraid, of course I'd keep him away - as would any responsible owner. But he's slept in shelters multiple times with no problems - sleeps on a fleece blanket at my feet and has never disrupted anyone. :rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 17:32
Well that's a gigantic and ignorant generalization. People have ticks too. My dog sleeps in the shelter if there is room and he does not do any of those things, nor does he have fleas. And he gets a thorough tick check beforehand. If someone is afraid, of course I'd keep him away - as would any responsible owner. But he's slept in shelters multiple times with no problems - sleeps on a fleece blanket at my feet and has never disrupted anyone. :rolleyes:

it's rude and inconsiderate. people like are why myself and many others never stay in shelters :rolleyes:

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 17:32
because shelters are for humans. dogs have fleas and ticks and like to walk over your stuff and beg food and growl and sometimes bite and some folks are scared of dogs. set up a tent away from the shelter with your dog

and i have seen the exchange way too many times...

dog owner: don't worrry he's fiendly

non-dog owner: i don't like dogs

dog owner: just push him away

non dog-owner [holding hands high, turning away from dog, looking anxious]: i don't like dogs, please take him away

dog owner: oh, just shoo him, here cujo, here cujo

non dog-owner quickly vacates the area and is all stressed out

dog owner: i can't believe what a jerk that guy was




me: who is the jerk?

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:32
it's rude and inconsiderate. people like are why myself and many others never stay in shelters :rolleyes:

Sweet, more room for me and the dog! :D

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 17:33
Sweet, more room for me and the dog! :D

selfish and ignorant. nice

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:34
and i have seen the exchange way too many times...

dog owner: don't worrry he's fiendly

non-dog owner: i don't like dogs

dog owner: just push him away

non dog-owner [holding hands high, turning away from dog, looking anxious]: i don't like dogs, please take him away

dog owner: oh, just shoo him, here cujo, here cujo

non dog-owner quickly vacates the area and is all stressed out

dog owner: i can't believe what a jerk that guy was




me: who is the jerk?

The dog owner is, of course. But to make a stupid generalization that all dogs and dog owners are like that is, well... stupid.

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:34
selfish and ignorant. nice


Thanks! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


have a nice day! :sun

rickb
05-28-2010, 17:35
Next thing you know we'll be told shelters aren't a good place to prepare a meal on a rainy day.

Shelters come with all kinds of vermin.

You can dislike dogs all you want, but they remain part of the scene. No special prohibitions exist against them, and to suggest otherwise will just create unnecessary angst among those who find themselves in such situations.

The ATC offers good advise, though:


Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days.

Johnny Thunder
05-28-2010, 17:35
can i bring my pet pot-belly pig? pigs are smarter than dogs.

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 17:37
The dog owner is, of course. But to make a stupid generalization that all dogs and dog owners are like that is, well... stupid.

when you bring a dog into a shelter, do you ask, is everyone okay with my dog being here? are you sure? most will say okay, but some don't mean it. sorry, but lone wolf is quite correct

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 17:37
can i bring my pet pot-belly pig? pigs are smarter than dogs.

mmm, bacon

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 17:38
Next thing you know we'll be told shelters aren't a good place to prepare a meal on a rainy day.

Shelters come with all kinds of vermin.

You can dislike dogs all you want, but they remain part of the scene. No special prohibitions exist against them, and to suggest otherwise will just create unnecessary angst among those who find themselves in such situations.

most non-dog owners are in an angst when the dog walks into the shelter, especially when it is raining

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 17:39
when you bring a dog into a shelter, do you ask, is everyone okay with my dog being here? are you sure? most will say okay, but some don't mean it. sorry, but lone wolf is quite correct


Yes, I ask. And I'm not mean about it - I know people, and have friends, who are afraid of dogs and I would never keep my dog near them, regardless of how non-aggressive he is, because it's just rude and further gives dog owners a bad rap. If they are not strong-willed enough to say that they don't want my dog in the shelter, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem.

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 17:45
Yes, I ask. And I'm not mean about it - I know people, and have friends, who are afraid of dogs and I would never keep my dog near them, regardless of how non-aggressive he is, because it's just rude and further gives dog owners a bad rap. If they are not strong-willed enough to say that they don't want my dog in the shelter, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem.

sorry, wrong again. you put folks in an impossible position. they don't want to say no, because the don't want to appear rude or have a confrontation. if they don't have a dog, 99 times out of 100 they don't want your dog there. so, unless the person says cute dog, pets him, and offers to let the dog in before you ask, you are the one being rude for even asking

snaplok
05-28-2010, 18:21
I love dogs. That being said, why is it that people force them onto others? It's not just on the trail, it's in stores, restaurants, coffee houses... It's rude to have a sense of entitlement that just because you have a pet that you have the right to do what you feel like and then if someone complains they are rude and being an a$$?!?

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 18:23
I love dogs. That being said, why is it that people force them onto others? It's not just on the trail, it's in stores, restaurants, coffee houses... It's rude to have a sense of entitlement that just because you have a pet that you have the right to do what you feel like and then if someone complains they are rude and being an a$$?!?

xactly... it's like smokers sharing their smoke with those who don't want it, same damn thing happens

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 18:25
xactly... it's like smokers sharing their smoke with those who don't want it, same damn thing happens

p.s. personally, i don't mind dogs or smoke (mostly), but i see dog owners and smokers sharing their dogs and smoke with those too polite to say anything. it's just plain wrong.

snaplok
05-28-2010, 18:39
xactly... it's like smokers sharing their smoke with those who don't want it, same damn thing happens

lol I was going to use smokers as an example but didn't want to offend those that think they have that right too.
:rolleyes:

It's funny but as an ex-smoker I never impossed my bad habit on anyone but that's just cause I didn't want it done to me. When I moved to Philly for two years I was in hell, almost everyone smokes there and it's menthol, and it's when you are having breakfast. Nothing like bacon, eggs, and the smell of Newport in the morning... Smells like misery.

Jack Tarlin
05-28-2010, 19:56
Tin Man is 100% correct.

Asking people "if it's cool" if Shiloh or Cherokee Nation or whatever stays in the shelter is totally uncool. And dog owners, get real: You know this. You are putting other people on the spot. You are forcing THEM to be the bad guy, i.e., you are making THEM publicly say what most people actually feel, which is this: "I don't want to be licked or drooled on; I don't want a muddy animal walking all over my stuff; I don't want to be begged for food: I don't want to be leg humped; I especially don't wanna have to deal with whatever assorted vermin your pet is carrying, and if it's summertime, he sure in hell is packing something and you damned well know it." In short, when dog owners do the cutesy "Gee, does anyone mind if Muffin sleeps in here with me?" I assure you they know EXACTLY what they're doing, which is bullying people into saying nothing.

This has been said before, folks.

Anytime you catch yourself saying "Gee, does anyone mind if...." this should be a psychological red flag to yourself......you're basically asking people to OK public behavior that deep down, you KNOW most folks will object to. I don't care if it's "Gee, does anyone mind if I play some classical music?" or "Does anyone mind if I make some phone calls?" or "Is it OK if I do my religious chants before bed?"

I don't care WHAT it is.

Anytime you find yourself going "Does anyone mind if...." well, stop right there. You know damned well someone probably DOES mind, and probably more than one person, too. But they don't want to make a big deal out of it, and you're counting on this. So don't do it.

Muffin belongs in your tent, period, and don't guilt trip people into saying otherwise; when you ask them to OK otherwise, you are deliberately and quite intentionally putting them on the spot cuz you know, deep down, they're not likely to say anything cuz they don't wanna look like the bad guy.

But by putting them on the spot, it is YOU who are the bad guy.

So, it's easy: Don't do it.

Jack Tarlin
05-28-2010, 20:00
I should also add that in recent years, most dog owners don't even ask if it's OK to bring Bruno into the shelter.

They just assume that nobody will say anything, which again, is psychological bullying. They pretty much dare other folks into making a confrontation, which is simply rude.

You wanna camp with your dog?

Swell. Have a great time. Go camp with him. End of story.

rickb
05-28-2010, 20:09
Jack makes some good points.

That said, just keep in mind that there are no prohibitions regarding dogs in shelters.

So, if you want to get pissed at a dog's owner, feel free. Get pissed at the perceived inconsideration. Or assault on your health or other danger or discomfort the animal presents to you.

Just don't get your panties in a wad over some misplaced belief that the dog owner is breaking any regulation.

Understand that a big part of the reason I am saying this is because I used to get very annoyed (to the point that it would impact my happiness) to see people camping in illegal places along the AT. In large measure simply because they were breaking the rules.

Should I say something? Did I have a right to be angry seeing people in cherry sites when I had been camped in a less desirable area?

I later learned that I had been 100% wrong about the rules and knowing that, was able to chill. Getting older helped too, but that is beside the point.

In any event, best to recognized others' rights, even if you think they are being inconsiderate scum bags.

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 20:14
I should also add that in recent years, most dog owners don't even ask if it's OK to bring Bruno into the shelter.

They just assume that nobody will say anything, which again, is psychological bullying. They pretty much dare other folks into making a confrontation, which is simply rude.

You wanna camp with your dog?

Swell. Have a great time. Go camp with him. End of story.

Yep, I have seen plenty of dogs come into shelters and the owners never asked. At one shelter just off the trail in NY, I couldn't gear near even if I wanted to, because cujo and bruno were guarding it at full growl. Heck, they didn't even want us to pass until the owners got around to grabbing them. Camp with your dog? Okay... if you leash the ones that can't stand by your side and stay well away from others.

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 20:29
just keep in mind that there are no prohibitions regarding dogs in shelters.



nor are there prohibitions regarding snoring, drinkin' alcohol, coming in late/leaving early, cussing, etc., etc., etc. folks who use shelters AND have to have their dog in it with them just aren't woodsy types.

Blissful
05-28-2010, 20:41
most non-dog owners are in an angst when the dog walks into the shelter, especially when it is raining


I am a dog owner. This happened at Speck POnd in the rain. No one asked, They just showed up and slept in with their dog who then proceeded to shake itself all over the place. I found it rude. Dogs are not humans. They do not deserve the shelter because it is raining. Dogs are perfectly fine outside underneath the shelter (which is where our dog slept on our '07 hike for one night and loved it).
I have met lots of owners who sleep with their dogs in tents. I hiked with one, Mercy, and it was a great experience. I learned a lot too, that a dog, properly trained and cared for without special favors, can be a neat and important pal (this dog was trained for medical emergency).

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 20:51
sorry, wrong again. you put folks in an impossible position. they don't want to say no, because the don't want to appear rude or have a confrontation. if they don't have a dog, 99 times out of 100 they don't want your dog there. so, unless the person says cute dog, pets him, and offers to let the dog in before you ask, you are the one being rude for even asking


It's not an impossible position if you have the balls to say, "I'm sorry, but I'm uncomfortable with your dog in the shelter." Not my problem if you don't. Your assertion that it is rude to even ask is ridiculous. If I ask and everyone enthusiastically says, sure, no problem, then there's no problem. If you don't have the guts to say there is, that is YOUR problem, not mine.

"he's just looking out for your safety, but maybe you know better and should just go for it"

He's looking out for my safety by being a pompous, arrogant jerk who behaves as though he's written the be-all, end-all book on "hiking etiquette" and how to be a "woodsy type?" Please.

I'd rather spend a night ina shelter with a dog than with a psycho homeless dude who talks to himself and has been living out of the shelter for more than a week. But that's just me. :rolleyes:

Again - if you don't have the self-confidence or self-assuredness to speak up for yourself when you're put in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, that is your problem. I don't ask if it's okay because I know that it's not - I ask because it's the polite thing to do. I'd strongly disagree with whatever ignorant statement someone made asserting that most people are uncomfortable with dogs in shelters. I've met people in shelters who are way dirtier, smellier and nastier than most dogs. ;)

It's like any other situation - if someone is smoking pot or doing drugs ina shelter, you can ask them to stop or you can leave. If there is a psycho homeless dude in a shelter, you can ask them to leave or you can leave. If there is a pleasant, calm, quiet dog in a shelter than curls up on a blanket and passes out and does not bother a single person, and the owner asks you if it's okay if the dog sleeps there in the corner... you can either say no, i'm not okay with it, or you can leave. There's no law saying a dog can't be in a shelter.

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 20:53
It's not an impossible position if you have the balls to say, "I'm sorry, but I'm uncomfortable with your dog in the shelter." Not my problem if you don't. Your assertion that it is rude to even ask is ridiculous. If I ask and everyone enthusiastically says, sure, no problem, then there's no problem. If you don't have the guts to say there is, that is YOUR problem, not mine.

"he's just looking out for your safety, but maybe you know better and should just go for it"

He's looking out for my safety by being a pompous, arrogant jerk who behaves as though he's written the be-all, end-all book on "hiking etiquette" and how to be a "woodsy type?" Please.

I'd rather spend a night ina shelter with a dog than with a psycho homeless dude who talks to himself and has been living out of the shelter for more than a week. But that's just me. :rolleyes:

Again - if you don't have the self-confidence or self-assuredness to speak up for yourself when you're put in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, that is your problem. I don't ask if it's okay because I know that it's not - I ask because it's the polite thing to do. I'd strongly disagree with whatever ignorant statement someone made asserting that most people are uncomfortable with dogs in shelters. I've met people in shelters who are way dirtier, smellier and nastier than most dogs. ;)

It's like any other situation - if someone is smoking pot or doing drugs ina shelter, you can ask them to stop or you can leave. If there is a psycho homeless dude in a shelter, you can ask them to leave or you can leave. If there is a pleasant, calm, quiet dog in a shelter than curls up on a blanket and passes out and does not bother a single person, and the owner asks you if it's okay if the dog sleeps there in the corner... you can either say no, i'm not okay with it, or you can leave. There's no law saying a dog can't be in a shelter.you don't get it. never will

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 21:00
how much of the AT have you walked miss molly?


Not playing that game...Impossible to win, regardless of what experience I do or don't have. Given you've "whatever'd" me and written off every single post I've made here with some arrogant comment about me "not getting it," I really wonder why you even care to know. :-?

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 21:01
If "getting it" means conforming to your ridiculous rules for how to be a "woodsy type," then I'm glad! Thanks. :D

honey, just learn to camp with your pup. it's the right thing to do. me thinks you won't be doing much AT walkin' in the future though.

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 21:02
If "getting it" means conforming to your ridiculous rules for how to be a "woodsy type," then I'm glad! Thanks. :D

thinking about how your behavior impacts others is ridiculous?? wow. you most certainly do not get it.

Blissful
05-28-2010, 21:06
I talked with two hikers today at our picnic about their dog (who they decided to send their dog home when the trail got tough, responsible, IMO) They said - we always tented with him.
When you lose respect for other hikers and humankind over an animal's rights, then there's a problem.
I see it with my writing (as an author). We can write about and show gory movies of people getting killed in the most gruesome ways. But boy oh boy, never show a dog getting hurt or killed. You aren't allowed to.
Somethings wrong here...
I love my dog. But when it comes to humans and their rights and the love of a human over a dog, people should win every time.

Johnny Thunder
05-28-2010, 21:06
HAHAHAHA!!!

I was going to let this one go but it is just too clear how ignorant some people can be of the situations they create.

Twice over the past 3 years I've approached shelters and found a "grou of people and a dog. In both cases it was clear that the people in the shelter liked the dog and might have been traveling with it and it's owner. I can only guess this was the case since someone (not the owner) was petting the dog. In both cases the dog was aggressive towards me as I approached and I didn't feel comfortable being near it.

There was no way for me to comfortably share the shelter with the animal and his companions even after saying something to have the animal removed. Any dog owner who doesn't acknowledge this is ignorant of their own footprint.

Your perfect little puff-ball might just be that. Or you might ignore the sort of common-sense training that keeps animals from killing babies, begging for food, or getting my stuff muddy.

But I don't know you and I don't know your animal.

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 21:08
honey, just learn to camp with your pup. it's the right thing to do. me thinks you won't be doing much AT walkin' in the future though.

It's the right thing to do... in your opinion. Thank you for that deep, insightful comment in which you somehow predicted my future behavior based on my opinion of dogs in shelters. :rolleyes: And Tin Man, I'm sorry if "not getting it," in your opinion, is the same as simply having a different view, but I simply do not agree with you. I don't "not get it," I just disagree.

Blissful
05-28-2010, 21:11
I just disagree.

And that's ok to do. :)

SO let's all be FRIENDS :)

:sun

Bye y'all

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 21:12
HAHAHAHA!!!

I was going to let this one go but it is just too clear how ignorant some people can be of the situations they create.

Twice over the past 3 years I've approached shelters and found a "grou of people and a dog. In both cases it was clear that the people in the shelter liked the dog and might have been traveling with it and it's owner. I can only guess this was the case since someone (not the owner) was petting the dog. In both cases the dog was aggressive towards me as I approached and I didn't feel comfortable being near it.

There was no way for me to comfortably share the shelter with the animal and his companions even after saying something to have the animal removed. Any dog owner who doesn't acknowledge this is ignorant of their own footprint.

Your perfect little puff-ball might just be that. Or you might ignore the sort of common-sense training that keeps animals from killing babies, begging for food, or getting my stuff muddy.

But I don't know you and I don't know your animal.

i love you. and your common, no BS sense :)

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 21:15
It's the right thing to do... in your opinion. Thank you for that deep, insightful comment in which you somehow predicted my future behavior based on my opinion of dogs in shelters. :rolleyes: And Tin Man, I'm sorry if "not getting it," in your opinion, is the same as simply having a different view, but I simply do not agree with you. I don't "not get it," I just disagree.

thank you for your insights. i will be sure to speak up when i come to a shelter, ask the dog owner to leave the non-dog owners alone and go camp elsewhere ... i will be sure to tell them it was your idea :)


then i will move down the trail, because i don't camp at shelters

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 21:15
HAHAHAHA!!!

I was going to let this one go but it is just too clear how ignorant some people can be of the situations they create.

Twice over the past 3 years I've approached shelters and found a "grou of people and a dog. In both cases it was clear that the people in the shelter liked the dog and might have been traveling with it and it's owner. I can only guess this was the case since someone (not the owner) was petting the dog. In both cases the dog was aggressive towards me as I approached and I didn't feel comfortable being near it.

There was no way for me to comfortably share the shelter with the animal and his companions even after saying something to have the animal removed. Any dog owner who doesn't acknowledge this is ignorant of their own footprint.

Your perfect little puff-ball might just be that. Or you might ignore the sort of common-sense training that keeps animals from killing babies, begging for food, or getting my stuff muddy.

But I don't know you and I don't know your animal.

I'm sure there are dog owners out there like that, because I've encountered them myself. Which is why I am absolutely not like that - because I think owners like that are obnoxious and give the rest of us a bad name. A friend of mine is like that and it's ridiculous and embarrassing and rude. Which is why I do not behave in that way. And when I say my dog is a total mushball who has never demonstrated an ounce of aggression in his life, I'm being honest.

njordan2
05-28-2010, 21:24
I have never had a problem with a dog in a shelter. They usually smell better than most of the hikers.

Johnny Thunder
05-28-2010, 21:25
I'm sure there are dog owners out there like that, because I've encountered them myself. Which is why I am absolutely not like that - because I think owners like that are obnoxious and give the rest of us a bad name. A friend of mine is like that and it's ridiculous and embarrassing and rude. Which is why I do not behave in that way. And when I say my dog is a total mushball who has never demonstrated an ounce of aggression in his life, I'm being honest.

That's fine. But I wouldn't want to sleep next to a stranger if I couldn't talk to him first. Oh wait...

Something to consider: There is that archetypal Female-Thru-Hiker-with-a-Large -Rescue-Dog that seem to show up by the dozens every year. After you've been around for a few seasons you'll know what I'm talking about. The thing about rescue animals is that most of them were abused by men.

So, your little angel who may or may not be a rescue is definitely a wild animal which may have aggression issues.

Again, I don't know you and I don't know your animal. You can tell me how great your mushball is but I don't know you.

hellomolly
05-28-2010, 21:31
That's fine. But I wouldn't want to sleep next to a stranger if I couldn't talk to him first. Oh wait...

Something to consider: There is that archetypal Female-Thru-Hiker-with-a-Large -Rescue-Dog that seem to show up by the dozens every year. After you've been around for a few seasons you'll know what I'm talking about. The thing about rescue animals is that most of them were abused by men.

So, your little angel who may or may not be a rescue is definitely a wild animal which may have aggression issues.

Again, I don't know you and I don't know your animal. You can tell me how great your mushball is but I don't know you.


Again... I agree with you that there are people like that. But my dog is also my boyfriend's dog, so I don't think he has men issues, lol. He has literally never met a human being he does not like. Young, old, big, little, male, female... all get the body-wiggling tail wag. And if that body-wiggling tail wag is unwelcome, the dog is kept away. And the dog is also always kept tied up away from the shelter while people are doing their food business and such, so he does not have the opportunity to beg or step on people's stuff or such.

I am more just frustrated that some people seem to take dog owners and lump them all in with the one or two or three owners they have met that are irresponsible. There are responsible dog owners out there, I swear! I am one.

Lone Wolf
05-28-2010, 21:48
you know nothing sport. lone wolf in person is one of the nicest, most helfpul people you could meet as described by just about everyone who has met him

ahhh. it don't matter. it's the dog thing. real hikers like Crumbsnatcher and his pup did the right thing. always. even though his dog was a mushball. he even carried her food and water.

Tin Man
05-28-2010, 21:50
ahhh. it don't matter. it's the dog thing. real hikers like Crumbsnatcher and his pup did the right thing. always. even though his dog was a mushball. he even carried her food and water.

yeah, i've heard about crumbsnatcher and his dog. isn't he hiking now? we were going to meet up if / when he came thru here.

snaplok
05-28-2010, 22:39
I again don't see what the problem is. A dog is an animal not a child, nor a sibling, nor a spouse. I have pets and love them too, however it's obnoxious to force them on someone in a shelter, and yes if you do have a problem with it speak up. No one hiking should rely on a shelter anyway. That's like saying you're an ultralight packing, then not taking a tarp, or food, or a stove, then expecting to "borrow" from someone. If you have a pet with you, then you and that pet should sleep outside. And no, not every pet owner is rude, but TONS of people do believe that their ***** doesn't stink and will infringe on other's rights easily but how dare you infringe on theirs.

wcgornto
05-28-2010, 22:53
If you and your dog arrive at a shelter full of boy scouts, should you only evict one boy scout to make room for yourself or should you evict two so that your dog can stay in the shelter with you?

Panzer1
05-28-2010, 23:12
If you and your dog arrive at a shelter full of boy scouts, should you only evict one boy scout to make room for yourself or should you evict two so that your dog can stay in the shelter with you?

LOL :D

Panzer

snaplok
05-29-2010, 00:15
If you and your dog arrive at a shelter full of boy scouts, should you only evict one boy scout to make room for yourself or should you evict two so that your dog can stay in the shelter with you?


You should "ask" if they mind that's the polite thing to do, even if you are forcing them to just agree. If they don't have the self-confidence or self-assuredness to speak up for themselves when they are put in a situation that makes them uncomfortable, that is their problem. Or something that someone said like that.

ed bell
05-29-2010, 00:50
If you and your dog arrive at a shelter full of boy scouts, should you only evict one boy scout to make room for yourself or should you evict two so that your dog can stay in the shelter with you?

Pretty sure this was written to add some welcomed levity here....


You should "ask" if they mind that's the polite thing to do, even if you are forcing them to just agree. If they don't have the self-confidence or self-assuredness to speak up for themselves when they are put in a situation that makes them uncomfortable, that is their problem. Or something that someone said like that.

Not exactly sure what you are saying there. The gist of it seems to be:

"You can do what you like, but go ahead and "ask" because it's the "polite" thing to do. Don't worry about pushback since most will agree with your request because they don't want to cause a possible confrontation. If that is indeed the case, then it's their own fault for not being self confident or self-assure enough to handle their unwillingness to disagree with you." Or maybe that isn't what you meant or something else someone said kind of like that....:cool:

snaplok
05-29-2010, 00:59
Pretty sure this was written to add some welcomed levity here....



Not exactly sure what you are saying there. The gist of it seems to be:

"You can do what you like, but go ahead and "ask" because it's the "polite" thing to do. Don't worry about pushback since most will agree with your request because they don't want to cause a possible confrontation. If that is indeed the case, then it's their own fault for not being self confident or self-assure enough to handle their unwillingness to disagree with you." Or maybe that isn't what you meant or something else someone said kind of like that....:cool:

Yep, I quoted Molly. And yes, that is the gist of what she's saying.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 01:03
Yep, I quoted Molly. And yes, that is the gist of what she's saying.

No, it's not - just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you can just re-invent my opinion based on your own bias. And my comment was butchered to the point where that last post Ed bell made doesn't even make sense. Come up with your own opinions instead of hijacking and then misrepresenting mine.

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:08
It's not an impossible position if you have the balls to say, "I'm sorry, but I'm uncomfortable with your dog in the shelter." Not my problem if you don't. Your assertion that it is rude to even ask is ridiculous. If I ask and everyone enthusiastically says, sure, no problem, then there's no problem. If you don't have the guts to say there is, that is YOUR problem, not mine.

"he's just looking out for your safety, but maybe you know better and should just go for it"

He's looking out for my safety by being a pompous, arrogant jerk who behaves as though he's written the be-all, end-all book on "hiking etiquette" and how to be a "woodsy type?" Please.

I'd rather spend a night ina shelter with a dog than with a psycho homeless dude who talks to himself and has been living out of the shelter for more than a week. But that's just me. :rolleyes:

Again - if you don't have the self-confidence or self-assuredness to speak up for yourself when you're put in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, that is your problem. I don't ask if it's okay because I know that it's not - I ask because it's the polite thing to do. I'd strongly disagree with whatever ignorant statement someone made asserting that most people are uncomfortable with dogs in shelters. I've met people in shelters who are way dirtier, smellier and nastier than most dogs. ;)

It's like any other situation - if someone is smoking pot or doing drugs ina shelter, you can ask them to stop or you can leave. If there is a psycho homeless dude in a shelter, you can ask them to leave or you can leave. If there is a pleasant, calm, quiet dog in a shelter than curls up on a blanket and passes out and does not bother a single person, and the owner asks you if it's okay if the dog sleeps there in the corner... you can either say no, i'm not okay with it, or you can leave. There's no law saying a dog can't be in a shelter.

So you didn't post this? :-?

And how am I bias?

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:12
Basically, you're forcing someone deal with your dog. If they have the balls to tell you to "take a hike" from the shelter because of it. Wouldn't it be more polite not to bring the dog in the shelter in the first place, instead of calling people out. And what if someone says no, I am not ok with it, will you huff and puff and keep the dog there anyway?

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 01:13
So you didn't post this? :-?

And how am I bias?

Putting certain words in quotes as if i was being sarcastic or dishonest and then replacing words that I wrote with others that change the tone and meaning of my original post is what i was referring to, which is what Ed Bell did and you subsequently agreed with. I don't "ask" if people are okay with the dog. I ask, politely and without any sort of sense of bullying, and if they are not okay with it, it doesn't happen. Putting "ask" in quotes connotes sarcasm, etc. But of course, you knew that.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 01:20
Basically, you're forcing someone deal with your dog. If they have the balls to tell you to "take a hike" from the shelter because of it. Wouldn't it be more polite not to bring the dog in the shelter in the first place, instead of calling people out. And what if someone says no, I am not ok with it, will you huff and puff and keep the dog there anyway?

i can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. i'm like... 5'3 and 120 pounds. just don't have it in me. :rolleyes:

i don't "call people out." you act as though i storm into the shelter, let my dog crap and piss all over people's stuff, then loudly ask, "Uh, anyone gonna have a problem with this?!" while holding a freaking pistol to to their heads.

i walk to the shelter with the dog on a lead so he does not get into anyone's things. he stays away from the shelter while everyone makes food/settles in because i make him. in the course of the conversation i ask if it is okay if the dog sleeps in the shelter and that if anyone isn't, he can sleep outside because he has a pad and a blanket for just that. if people say its okay and there is enough room that i can sleep between him any everyone else, i put him in the corner of the shelter at my feet as far away from every else as is possible. he sleeps through the night. then in the morning he is taken out, first thing. i ask to keep him there because it's warmer for him and because he does not bark while in a shelter, while sometimes he has been known to bark at random woods noises while in a tent or outside a tent, and i feel bad when that happens because i don't want him disturbing anyone.

like i said... if you can't say that you are uncomfortable with something, regardless of the situation, that is something that is your own problem. if someone asks you to buy something in a store, do you buy it because you don't want to cause a confrontation? just say something. if the person is a jerk and rude and inconsiderate... then they're a jerk, lol. but to act like all dog owners are like what you described is simply ignorant.

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:22
Putting certain words in quotes as if i was being sarcastic or dishonest and then replacing words that I wrote with others that change the tone and meaning of my original post is what i was referring to, which is what Ed Bell did and you subsequently agreed with. I don't "ask" if people are okay with the dog. I ask, politely and without any sort of sense of bullying, and if they are not okay with it, it doesn't happen. Putting "ask" in quotes connotes sarcasm, etc. But of course, you knew that.

I don't know about that, your phrases of if they have the balls, or guts doesn't exactly say bullying but it does take an in your face attitude. It's like saying I don't mean to be disrespectful but then the next thing said is really disrespectful, but because you said you didn't mean to, it's ok. Maybe I am a little bias being a native New Yorker where you get a lot of people trying to pull that same crap, however, as others have said here everyone who does that knows exactly what they are doing.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 01:29
I don't know about that, your phrases of if they have the balls, or guts doesn't exactly say bullying but it does take an in your face attitude. It's like saying I don't mean to be disrespectful but then the next thing said is really disrespectful, but because you said you didn't mean to, it's ok. Maybe I am a little bias being a native New Yorker where you get a lot of people trying to pull that same crap, however, as others have said here everyone who does that knows exactly what they are doing.

Alright, I can see what you mean with this. I did not intend for it to come off that way and I don't have that sort of an attitude in a real life situation - here, I was pissed and it's the interwebs, lol.

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:34
i can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. i'm like... 5'3 and 120 pounds. just don't have it in me. :rolleyes:

i don't "call people out." you act as though i storm into the shelter, let my dog crap and piss all over people's stuff, then loudly ask, "Uh, anyone gonna have a problem with this?!" while holding a freaking pistol to to their heads.

i walk to the shelter with the dog on a lead so he does not get into anyone's things. he stays away from the shelter while everyone makes food/settles in because i make him. in the course of the conversation i ask if it is okay if the dog sleeps in the shelter and that if anyone isn't, he can sleep outside because he has a pad and a blanket for just that. if people say its okay and there is enough room that i can sleep between him any everyone else, i put him in the corner of the shelter at my feet as far away from every else as is possible. he sleeps through the night. then in the morning he is taken out, first thing. i ask to keep him there because it's warmer for him and because he does not bark while in a shelter, while sometimes he has been known to bark at random woods noises while in a tent or outside a tent, and i feel bad when that happens because i don't want him disturbing anyone.

like i said... if you can't say that you are uncomfortable with something, regardless of the situation, that is something that is your own problem. if someone asks you to buy something in a store, do you buy it because you don't want to cause a confrontation? just say something. if the person is a jerk and rude and inconsiderate... then they're a jerk, lol. but to act like all dog owners are like what you described is simply ignorant.

Then you might just be a rather unique person. I personally loathe shelters for the mess, noise, and vermin but to each their own. Last time I was in a shelter, I was a scout, and even back then you had jerks come in; 2 in the morning is not party time where you shine lights on sleeping peoples faces and blast your tape player. Not unless you want to be told that you need to **** or leave.

As much as I would love to take a dog hiking I would never keep it in a shelter. I've seen the most friendliest animals turn mean to the wrong person, and seen stupid people try to feed them things like chocolate just because they don't know better. Too many jerks out there on both sides of the coin, better to invest in a doggie tent.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 01:39
Then you might just be a rather unique person. I personally loathe shelters for the mess, noise, and vermin but to each their own. Last time I was in a shelter, I was a scout, and even back then you had jerks come in; 2 in the morning is not party time where you shine lights on sleeping peoples faces and blast your tape player. Not unless you want to be told that you need to **** or leave.

As much as I would love to take a dog hiking I would never keep it in a shelter. I've seen the most friendliest animals turn mean to the wrong person, and seen stupid people try to feed them things like chocolate just because they don't know better. Too many jerks out there on both sides of the coin, better to invest in a doggie tent.

I agree with a lot of this. I think dog owners get a bad rep because of bad, inconsiderate people. I think I'm hyper-aware of it and that's why I try to be as considerate as I can be. I would be absolutely mortified and embarrassed if my dog made someone uncomfortable because it would be my fault - he's my responsibility. I have a friend who just lets their dog wander around where ever it wants and it drives me BONKERS. I do agree that sometimes it's just better to camp with the dog, though - it's really all dependent on each individual situation and how you gauge people's reactions.

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:41
Alright, I can see what you mean with this. I did not intend for it to come off that way and I don't have that sort of an attitude in a real life situation - here, I was pissed and it's the interwebs, lol.

Yeah I can see why you could get pissed, lots of opinionated people here. :rolleyes: LOL

Not all dog hikers are the same, just like not all hikers are the same. Good to know that there are nice ones out there. :)

snaplok
05-29-2010, 01:45
I agree with a lot of this. I think dog owners get a bad rep because of bad, inconsiderate people. I think I'm hyper-aware of it and that's why I try to be as considerate as I can be. I would be absolutely mortified and embarrassed if my dog made someone uncomfortable because it would be my fault - he's my responsibility. I have a friend who just lets their dog wander around where ever it wants and it drives me BONKERS. I do agree that sometimes it's just better to camp with the dog, though - it's really all dependent on each individual situation and how you gauge people's reactions.

Very true indeed, and you used that special magical word that I love so much "inconsiderate" as there are way to many people that are that way. Always found you get more flies with honey than vinegar.

gunner76
05-29-2010, 09:35
can i bring my pet pot-belly pig? pigs are smarter than dogs.

Bring the pig, you can use it to hunt for Truffles for dinner.

Jack Tarlin
05-29-2010, 09:46
A few quick words about Molly's comments: So if you don't speak up and make a scene, then you lack confidence and self-assuredness, which is "your problem."

What she's missing is that nobody has the right to put other folks in that situtation. The minute one asks "Hey, does anyone mind if...." they are absolutely asking other folks to condone behavior that they KNOW may well be objectionable. (After all, if they weren't sure about whether or not their planned behavior was appriopriate or not, then they wouldn't have to ask other folks to OK it, no?) In other words, they know perfectly well that they're putting other people on the spot......and they simply don't care. This is bullying, pure and simple, tho Molly thinks it's more a question of self-assuredness or self-confidence.

Hogwash. It's making other folks take a public stand and it's making them look like the bad guy. It is DELIBERATELY making other people uncomfortable or making them look bad in front of others, and the person asking the question "Does anyone mind...." absolutely does this knowing full well that most folks simply don't want to deal with an unpleasant scene......so they say nothing, which is, of course, precisely what the dog owner is hoping for. This has nothing to do with insecurity or lack of confidence. It's merely folks politely deciding that they don't want to have to deal with the public unpleasantness of telling someone that they're being a jerk.

It's ultimately a question of civility, pure and simple. Polite people don't intentionally put other folks on the spot, and polite people don't ask other folks to give their blessing to behavior that many folks might find objectionable.

And as to Molly's comment that it is only one, two, or three "bad" dogs or bad owners out there, well this is either wishful thinking on her part or more likely confirms my suspicion about how much time she's spent on the A.T.

This year alone, I've encountered at least three bad dogs or bad owners every week; at Trail days there were scores of them. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing is rare or unusual among dog owners is deluding themselves.

will1972
05-29-2010, 10:03
I take my dog hiking maybe 3 out 4 times, when I'm out. I would never subject other hikers to him. He is always on a leash and I always pull him off the trail when passing others. Just general courtesy. When it comes to shelters I feel that dogs should be left outside, People are sometimes uncomfortable around dogs, I can see why. In my line of work I come across different dogs almost every day. And I get bit usually a couple of times a year by dogs "that never bit anyone before". Keep dogs out of the shelters and tent out please. That is what I do.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 10:03
And as to Molly's comment that it is only one, two, or three "bad" dogs or bad owners out there, well this is either wishful thinking on her part or more likely confirms my suspicion about how much time she's spent on the A.T.

This year alone, I've encountered at least three bad dogs or bad owners every week; at Trail days there were scores of them. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing is rare or unusual among dog owners is deluding themselves.

Shucks, you caught me. I've only hiked about 100 miles of the AT (Though I have a 115 mile section planned for later this summer - does that make my opinion more valid in a way that directly corresponds to my mileage?). Guess all the hiking in numerous other areas throughout the past 10 years of my life doesn't count toward however many miles/days/hours I need on the trail, AT or not, in order to fit your definition of what a hiker is. :rolleyes:

I certainly don't think it's rare - as I mentioned in a PM to someone regarding this thread, perhaps it is even the majority. But not everyone is like that, and to treat one person a certain negative way because you assume they will be like all the others is ignorant.

Regarding the rest of your post - you're wrong, IMO, but whatever, you knew that, no need to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. You will never concede that some people don't fit your definition of dog owner. There is no need to "make a scene" - as I described earlier, I don't barge into a shelter with my dog barking and drooling and pissing on people's things, then hold a knife to their throats when I ask if it's okay if he sleeps there. And I don't ask because I know it's inappropriate - I ask, as I said, because it's the polite thing to do and because in the past, people who have a problem with it haven't had a problem saying no - which I respect. But keep making broad assumptions if it makes you feel better. ;)

rickb
05-29-2010, 10:09
People should be considerate.

People should know their rights and demand that others respect them.

Sometimes these two principals are at odds with one another.

But let there be no mistake about it:

Dog owners have the right to bring their animals into shelters on the AT.

I think it is important not to forget this, and to challenge any assertions to the contrary.

will1972
05-29-2010, 10:30
It's not about the (right), Just common courtesy. But I guess it has been said numerous times here today, avoid the shelters and the rude actions that people bring to them. I hike to get away from the things. Most people that I meet on the trail are great. But as we all have seen here some people never care how much they bother other people it's all about them period.

rickb
05-29-2010, 10:41
Understanding one's rights is a foundation for many interactions between people, not the final word.

In a situation where there are just two people in a shelter, one of who has a well trained animal that is not encroaching on the personal space of the other hiker, one would hope that everyone can work things out.

But the dog owner should not feel automatically compelled to remove his animal simply because the other party does not want it there.

Do you disagree? To my way of thinking the dog owner's existing right (and make no mistake they have it) to have an animal in a shelter matters-- even if some find that right to be unfortunate.

Jack Tarlin
05-29-2010, 11:10
Actually Molly, on many occasions in regards to this subject, I've been at pains to blame the owners, and not the dogs.

And my assumptions (the "broad" ones that trouble you) are based on actual Trail experience, experience that believe it ot not involves more than 100 miles of the A.T. Fact is, Molly, when you come to realize the truth of something because of stuff you've personally witnessed time and time again, this is not making an "assumption". How typical, tho, for dog owners to downplay or negate this (like saying it's only hapened, one, two, or three times, etc.). Dog owners are exactly like the parents of the loud child who creates a disturbance in a restaurant or movie theater.......it could never be THEIR child who engages in such behavior........but it certainly is somebody's child, isn't it?

But if you want to term people who dare disagree with you as "ignorant", well there's not much I can do about it, tho it doesn't really further your argument.

There are dog owners who simply can't handle the fact that they do NOT have an inherent right to enjoy the company of their pets wherever they damned please, and their right to enjoy this company ends flatly when their dog's presence interferes with the rights of other people.

The company of one's pet is best enjoyed at home.

Mrs Baggins
05-29-2010, 11:22
sorry, wrong again. you put folks in an impossible position. they don't want to say no, because the don't want to appear rude or have a confrontation. if they don't have a dog, 99 times out of 100 they don't want your dog there. so, unless the person says cute dog, pets him, and offers to let the dog in before you ask, you are the one being rude for even asking

You are dead on correct. I can't stand dogs in the shelters but when others are saying "Sure, it's okay" and you may be the only one who wants to say NO! then you just nod. Had the experience at a shelter of a young woman with two dogs (who were almost never leashed - on the trail or at shelters) allow her dogs to just roam all over. They charged everyone who came to the shelter, rammed into them, barked and growled. I had just cooked my meal, set my pan next to me on the bench IN THE SHELTER, to let it cool and while I was sitting right there the bigger dog stuck her nose in my cook pot and proceeded to eat my dinner. I happened so fast I didn't have time to get it away. The owner's response? "Oh I'm sorry. I hope you don't mind." :eek: Then she let the dogs sleep in the shelter, where others had their bags and mats already set up while she chatted and cooked. Every single dog owner says "Oh, not MY dog! MY dog would NEVER do that! MY dog never has fleas or ticks! MY dog is just a sweetheart!" :rolleyes:

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 11:52
Actually Molly, on many occasions in regards to this subject, I've been at pains to blame the owners, and not the dogs.

And my assumptions (the "broad" ones that trouble you) are based on actual Trail experience, experience that believe it ot not involves more than 100 miles of the A.T. Fact is, Molly, when you come to realize the truth of something because of stuff you've personally witnessed time and time again, this is not making an "assumption". How typical, tho, for dog owners to downplay or negate this (like saying it's only hapened, one, two, or three times, etc.). Dog owners are exactly like the parents of the loud child who creates a disturbance in a restaurant or movie theater.......it could never be THEIR child who engages in such behavior........but it certainly is somebody's child, isn't it?

But if you want to term people who dare disagree with you as "ignorant", well there's not much I can do about it, tho it doesn't really further your argument.

There are dog owners who simply can't handle the fact that they do NOT have an inherent right to enjoy the company of their pets wherever they damned please, and their right to enjoy this company ends flatly when their dog's presence interferes with the rights of other people.

The company of one's pet is best enjoyed at home.

I call you ignorant because you are - you have no idea how I behave with my dog on the trail yet presume to know based on your experiences with others. That's ignorant. You don't know "the truth," all you know is your own experience. Sorry you've had such negative ones, but assuming you know how I behave regardless of having never encountered me on the trail is ignorant.

And how is my stating that the behavior of bad dog owners is possible the majority equated with me "downplaying" it? Now that's just stupid. Or you have a reading comprehension problem.

As for as not having an inherent right to enjoy the company of my dog... as rickb pointed out, when it comes to shelters, actually, I do. :)

Mrs Baggins.. obviously you had a bad experience and that owner was clearly irresponsible and rude and should not have behaved that way. But assuming that all dog owners are like that because you had that bad experience is wrong.

BigFoot2002
05-29-2010, 14:30
Reading comprehension problems? What I read in Rick's post left me with the impression (please correct me if I am wrong Rick) that if there were TWO people there, a conversation could happen where those two people could reach their own settlement regarding the presence of a dog.

I agree. Two consenting adults should be able to do just about anything they want in private as far as I'm concerned. And if one or both of them are is a dog lovers; c'est la vie.

But to assume Carte Blanche that you ever have any right to even ask a group of people for permission to bring a dog around a shelter? No, you just cannot do it without being a jerk.

Jack Tarlin
05-29-2010, 15:03
Molly:

In multiple posts on this thread, you've attempted to prove to us what a caring, thoughtful, considerate dog owner you are.

Yet in your last post, you flatly declared that you think you have a "right" to bring your dog into a shelter, despite how other folks may feel about this.

Um, no you don't, and that's the whole point.

This kind of smug self-righteousness is hardly caring, thoughtful, and considerate. This is not how caring, considertae people think.

In short, you just revealed yourself to be just like the majority of dog owners out there on the A.T......i.e., a bad one, and if a lot of folks harbor ill feelings towards dogs and their owners on the Tail, it is people like you who are entirely responsible for this. Your "right" to enjoy your dog's company everywhere you go essentially ends when you leave your house, and your refusal to acknowledge this says a good deal about your feelings towards others.

Thanks for proving outr point.

Father Dragon
05-29-2010, 15:06
Something that a guy on the trail told me recently really sticks out in my mind and pretty much sums up my thoughts on dogs/owners and the trail.

"you know you can train a dog not to do something or you can train a dog to do something"

The comment came from a chat about a guy who looked to be squatting by the trail at petites gap with two very aggressive dogs tied up right next to the trail. So whether the subject is about dogs in shelters, dogs on trail, dogs at water sources, or dogs at ice cream socials ... the truth about dogs is that the consideration for other people should start long before you take a dog anywhere.

As for dogs in shelters specifically the only time I mind (and I perfer to camp or hammock anyway) is when a dog gets all up on my stuff, or when I walk up to a shelter and a dog starts growling ... usually followed by, oh don't mind her/him ... they're friendly... yeah that's why I can see how healthy their teeth are from ten feet away :rolleyes:.... so back to the point ... you can either train a dog to not do something, or you can train a dog to do something.

Jack Tarlin
05-29-2010, 15:33
Note to Rick B:

I know you've been active for many years with the Trail and are no doubt familiar with the policies/actions of many trail clubs and organizations.

Please show us ANYTHING from a group or organization that builds, maintains, or supervises Trail shelters where it is clear that these structures were planned, designed, and corrected for anything other than human beings.

Your contention that a dog has a "right" to space in a shelter is completely ridiculous. A dog (and his owner's) "rights" stop when the animal's presence or behvior is interfering with the rights of other people. In short, one's "right" to fully enjoy one's dog's company ends when the owner and the dog leave their own property.

Jack Tarlin
05-29-2010, 15:35
Meant to say "erected" and not "corrected" but I think the meaning is clear.

Trail shelters were never intended for dogs tho if Rick knows otherwise I'm sure he'll provide evidence that backs this up.

Or then again, my guess is he can't. :D

Blue Jay
05-29-2010, 15:59
And I don't ask because I know it's inappropriate - I ask, as I said, because it's the polite thing to do and because in the past, people who have a problem with it haven't had a problem saying no - which I respect. But keep making broad assumptions if it makes you feel better. ;)

That's exactly why Jack and I'm sure others including me have to tell you, IT'S INAPPROPRIATE. It's not the polite thing to do, clearly you are completely unaware of what is polite and what is not. You clearly respect nothing and are not aware of that. You are the one making vastly broad assumptions.:rolleyes:

Mrs Baggins
05-29-2010, 19:23
Mrs Baggins.. obviously you had a bad experience and that owner was clearly irresponsible and rude and should not have behaved that way. But assuming that all dog owners are like that because you had that bad experience is wrong.


Wow. Nowhere in my post did I say "All dog owners." I said dog owners all believe their dogs are innocent....and they do. I did NOT say they all have dogs like the two hideous mutts that one person had. Me thinks thou dost protest too much, sweetheart...........I'm willing to bet that the same people who believe their dogs are the center of the known universe and have the right be in the shelters, are the same people who would grouse and bitch about young crying children in the shelters, or anywhere else for that matter. Well, those parents believe that their little ones are also the cutest things to ever exist and can't imagine anyone objecting to them being around, screaming and pooping and crying. And I'm the mom of two. NO ONE thinks your dogs, or your kids, are as cute as YOU believe they are. Even the grandparents occasionally realize they're spoiled screaming brats. We're doing battle right now here in Maryland because the state just said it's okay for dogs to join their owners at outdoor restaurants. Not at any restaurant I'm ever going to eat at. I do not want to pay for a nice meal and then be seated next to your slobbering whining shedding barking growling animal. And you'd probably pay even more money NOT to be seated next to someone's crying food throwing toddler. So fair is fair. Yeah, I know. YOUR dog would be quiet and well-mannered. Right. And my kids never screamed and threw food. :rolleyes: At least I'm honest about it and we always immediately removed them and took them back to the car. Dog owners won't be so considerate.

The Unknown Hiker
05-29-2010, 19:38
IMHO, I think dogs on thru-hikes are gradually becoming a thing of the past. There are just too many obstacles against them these days. They should be on leashes; can't go some locales; can be a shelter nuisance; carry bugs and critters, etc.

BUT, there was a incident in 2008 where a female hiker stayed the night at the Governor Clement shelter in Vermont. That place is notorious for trouble from the locals. But this female hiker had a dog (unknown size) with her and may well have kept her safe when some locals arrived to have a beer party. Other female hikers (staying alone) have not been as lucky.

But the safety in the shelter situation is usually not an issue. Instead, in just seems like there are more dog owner/hikers who take it for granted about shelter use - and may not even ask those humans who are already there.

If a dog owner/hiker is going to present their dog to me, just two requests: keep your dog out of the shelter if at all possible; and, keep your dog on a leash when he/she approaches me.

Mrs Baggins
05-29-2010, 20:23
Whenever a female tells me "I hike with my dog so I'm safe" I always reply "Really. Well Meredith Emerson hiked with a dog, too. And that didn't work out so well."

BobTheBuilder
05-29-2010, 21:38
Came up to Hawk Mountain shelter one night early in my AT experence. An older guy was in the shelter by himself. A group of 20 somethings with a dog showed up while the older guy was off in the privy. As they all milled about the shelter, I watched the dog, with mud all over his paws, jump up onto the shelter floor and walk all over the guys sleeping bag. Since none of the group was paying attention, I pointed it out to them and they called the dog out of the shelter.

It was a nice dog, I don't think it smelled bad, but that poor guy had a damp, muddy sleeping bag that night. It was no better than if I had walked all over his bag with my muddy boots.

I love my dog, but dogs don't belong in shelters.

rickb
05-29-2010, 21:47
Meant to say "erected" and not "corrected" but I think the meaning is clear.

Trail shelters were never intended for dogs tho if Rick knows otherwise I'm sure he'll provide evidence that backs this up.

Or then again, my guess is he can't. :D

Dogs have been part of shelter life before Jack ever thought about a thru hike. So has cooking in them, though some of the trail nannies would have that banned as well.

On a side note, there is an absolute prohibition against saxophones and bagpipes at shelters north of the CT/MA border. Even simple possession is classified as a felony with a mandatory minimum of 1 year.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 22:05
Molly:

In multiple posts on this thread, you've attempted to prove to us what a caring, thoughtful, considerate dog owner you are.

Yet in your last post, you flatly declared that you think you have a "right" to bring your dog into a shelter, despite how other folks may feel about this.

Um, no you don't, and that's the whole point.

.

And yet Rick has repeatedly posted that there is no prohibition against bringing dogs in a shelter - I believe he quoted an ATC regulation that states just that. Sorry if you think it should be outlawed, but it's not - therefore I have the right to do it. I've explained how I handle the situation about 8 million times - continue to ignorantly assume you know how I behave based on your own bias. There's no use arguing with someone as narrowminded as you.

Mrs. Baggins - you have aptly demonstrated your stereotype by stating that "all dog owners" believe their dog is an angel. That's just plain stupid, hun. I have two dogs - one of them would never go hiking with me because I know he cannot behave himself. I know he's no angel. I have a friend with three dogs and two of them are not allowed hiking because both have shown aggression in the past. So there, you've been proven wrong. Any time you say a gigantic group of people "all" behave a certain way, you're stereotyping and are wrong. If you had taken two seconds to READ what I've posted instead of ASSUMING to know how I behave, you would know that I don't think the world revolves around my dog (that's hilarious though, thanks) and AM polite when hiking with my dog. Sucks for you that you had a crappy experience, but making ridiculous statements about "all dog owners" behaving in one way is just plain dumb. "Dog owners won't be so considerate." Really. Because you must know ALL dog owners, right? :rolleyes:

Bulldawg, yeah, I'm angry that people are ignorant and stereotyping when it comes to dog owners and assume to know that all dog owners behave a certain way. Grow up. And since the dog I speak of is technically my boyfriend's dog, no, he has nothing to do with why other people's ignorance and stereotypes piss me off.

Tin Man
05-29-2010, 22:08
Came up to Hawk Mountain shelter one night early in my AT experence. An older guy was in the shelter by himself. A group of 20 somethings with a dog showed up while the older guy was off in the privy. As they all milled about the shelter, I watched the dog, with mud all over his paws, jump up onto the shelter floor and walk all over the guys sleeping bag. Since none of the group was paying attention, I pointed it out to them and they called the dog out of the shelter.

It was a nice dog, I don't think it smelled bad, but that poor guy had a damp, muddy sleeping bag that night. It was no better than if I had walked all over his bag with my muddy boots.

I love my dog, but dogs don't belong in shelters.


Dogs have been part of shelter life before Jack ever thought about a thru hike. So has cooking in them, though some of the trail nannies would have that banned as well.

On a side note, there is an absolute prohibition against saxophones and bagpipes at shelters north of the CT/MA border. Even simple possession is classified as a felony with a mandatory minimum of 1 year.

Live free or listen to Jack.

BobTheBuilder... Nice post, but you can't ever convince the selfish dog owners. It's past time to leave this thread alone. Dog owners have a justification for everything dog related and they usually end with 'not my dog' and pointless name calling 'cause they got nothing. :)

BigFoot2002
05-29-2010, 22:09
Yes dogs are part of the shelter experience; usually the very crappy annoying part.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 22:19
BobTheBuilder... Nice post, but you can't ever convince the selfish dog owners. It's past time to leave this thread alone. Dog owners have a justification for everything dog related and they usually end with 'not my dog' and pointless name calling 'cause they got nothing. :)

What, convince dog owners that some dog owners suck? Because really that's all BTB's post achieved. Yes, his post has thoroughly convinced me that... he had a bad experience with a dog once. :eek: Imagine that.

rickb
05-29-2010, 22:22
I think people remember the bad more easily than good when it comes to dogs in shelters.

I also think some people are a bit irrational when it come to animals impinging on their space. Some people just need to be the alpha dog.

Not me-- at least around four footed creatures.

This guy was making noise in my chimney for a month. Ignoring the advise of the experts, I just boarded the fireplace up and waited for him, his mother and brother to move out earlier this week.

I didn't need to prove my superiority by removing them to a certain death on my schedule.

People should be considerate with their dogs, and others should be recognize the rights of the responsible dog owner also. Too much prejudice in this thread.

Tin Man
05-29-2010, 22:28
What, convince dog owners that some dog owners suck? Because really that's all BTB's post achieved. Yes, his post has thoroughly convinced me that... he had a bad experience with a dog once. :eek: Imagine that.

And sooooo is that why all your posts have degraded into cheap shots and insults? 'Cause you "got nothing?" :rolleyes:

1 out of 100 dog owners, as an average, that i have come across on the trail, all have the same attitude and poorly behaved dogs. and you still got nothing. :)

Father Dragon
05-29-2010, 22:30
Sorry if you think it should be outlawed, but it's not - therefore I have the right to do it.

There isn't a law that I'm aware of that states I can't sit down right next to someone and fart ... in fact I believe I have the right to do so ... but that doesn't mean I'll sit right down next to someone and fart. Just sayin.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 22:31
1 out of 100 dog owners, as an average, that i have come across on the trail, all have the same attitude and poorly behaved dogs. and you still got nothing. :)

I've got plenty - a dog that I enjoy bringing hiking and camping with me! :D And can do freely, because there is no prohibition against it.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 22:33
There isn't a law that I'm aware of that states I can't sit down right next to someone and fart ... in fact I believe I have the right to do so ... but that doesn't mean I'll sit right down next to someone and fart. Just sayin.

Right... and just because I have the right to bring my dog where I want and be a crappy dog owner doesn't mean I am. I am not, despite others' attempts here to somehow divine my behavior based on... well, based on knowing virtually nothing about me. Someone making broad assumptions about another person on the interwebs despite knowing absolutely nothing about them... imagine that.

Blissful
05-29-2010, 22:38
There isn't a law that I'm aware of that states I can't sit down right next to someone and fart ... in fact I believe I have the right to do so ... but that doesn't mean I'll sit right down next to someone and fart. Just sayin.


Hikers do it all the time...

:D

In fact, one guy in a shelter said oops, excuse me. And others told him, don't apologize. Its the trail food we eat.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 22:41
Hikers do it all the time...

:D

In fact, one guy in a shelter said oops, excuse me. And others told him, don't apologize. Its the trail food we eat.


THAT is true actually. :D About how people react to farting, I mean. No comment regarding trail food... :eek:

Father Dragon
05-29-2010, 22:44
Hikers do it all the time...

:D

In fact, one guy in a shelter said oops, excuse me. And others told him, don't apologize. Its the trail food we eat.

very true ...

HikerRanky
05-29-2010, 22:55
And yet Rick has repeatedly posted that there is no prohibition against bringing dogs in a shelter - I believe he quoted an ATC regulation that states just that. Sorry if you think it should be outlawed, but it's not - therefore I have the right to do it. I've explained how I handle the situation about 8 million times - continue to ignorantly assume you know how I behave based on your own bias. There's no use arguing with someone as narrowminded as you.

Here is the actual context of the phrase that you are saying gives you the absolute right to bring your dog into a shelter. Notice the parts bolded...

Hiking with Dogs

Dogs are permitted along most of the Trail, but they impose additional responsibilities on hikers who bring them along. If you want to hike with your dog, be considerate of others (and your dog) by planning carefully, educating yourself about local regulations, and keeping your dog controlled at all times.
Regulations and restrictions

Dogs are NOT ALLOWED in three areas along the Trail:


Baxter State Park, Maine
Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina

Leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail, including:


Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
Maryland (entire state)
Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service

In practice, it can be difficult to tell when you are on NPS-administered A.T. lands. We recommend dogs be leashed at all times, as a matter of courtesy to other hikers and to minimize stress to wildlife.
Trail ethics for dogs and their owners

People hiking with dogs should be aware of the impact of their animals on the Trail environment and their effect on the Trail experience of others.


Do not allow your pet to chase wildlife.
Leash your dog around water sources and in sensitive alpine areas.
Do not allow your dog to stand in springs or other sources of drinking water.
Be mindful of the rights of other hikers not to be bothered by even a friendly dog.
Bury your pet's waste as you would your own.
Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days.


This full article can be found here (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805495/k.9C34/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm). So yes, you can bring your dog on the trail, but realize that if ANYONE says that they don't want to share a shelter with a dog, then it is incumbent upon the hiker and the dog to use alternative lodging. Your rights end where they begin to encroach on the rights of others.


Mrs. Baggins - you have aptly demonstrated your stereotype by stating that "all dog owners" believe their dog is an angel. That's just plain stupid, hun. I have two dogs - one of them would never go hiking with me because I know he cannot behave himself. I know he's no angel. I have a friend with three dogs and two of them are not allowed hiking because both have shown aggression in the past. So there, you've been proven wrong. Any time you say a gigantic group of people "all" behave a certain way, you're stereotyping and are wrong. If you had taken two seconds to READ what I've posted instead of ASSUMING to know how I behave, you would know that I don't think the world revolves around my dog (that's hilarious though, thanks) and AM polite when hiking with my dog. Sucks for you that you had a crappy experience, but making ridiculous statements about "all dog owners" behaving in one way is just plain dumb. "Dog owners won't be so considerate." Really. Because you must know ALL dog owners, right? :rolleyes:

And you are being stereotypical as well by saying that you know ALL the circumstances under which people like Jack and Mrs. Baggins and the others that have contributed to this thread and the predecessor to this as well.


Bulldawg, yeah, I'm angry that people are ignorant and stereotyping when it comes to dog owners and assume to know that all dog owners behave a certain way. Grow up. And since the dog I speak of is technically my boyfriend's dog, no, he has nothing to do with why other people's ignorance and stereotypes piss me off.

And yet again, you are being very judgemental. You claim that others don't have all of the information and therefore are ignorant and stereotypical, yet you weren't around with Baltimore Jack and Mrs. Baggins and Lone Wolf and Tin Man had their experiences with regards to dogs in shelters.

And just for the record, I have several dogs. I love my dogs and take them a lot of places... One is trained in tracking and search and recovery. Yet if I go out with that dog, and a person doesn't want the dog and I around, then I remove myself and the dog from the situation. I don't tell the person that it's my right to be there and that they are stupid and ignorant. Doesn't do anyone any good once it gets to that point.

And lastly, if we can't keep from resorting to the personal attacks, let's just say that this thread will be closed down... Please refer to item #2 of the Terms of Use.

Tin Man
05-29-2010, 22:59
hikerranky, awesome post! and yes, close it down now. closed minded dog owners (obviously not you and some others who shared insightful posts here) never change and have nothing worth sharing.

BigFoot2002
05-29-2010, 23:04
My experiences out there have been mostly negative when it comes to dogs. I frankly don't care how wonderful you think your dog is. I don't care if he does stand up comedy, magic, and card tricks. Every jerk dog owner of every jerk dog out there is completely oblivious to the crap they put those around them through.

If I don't want to play doggie roulette, with the odds of a few hours peace radically against me, I am forced to move on. I won't get use of the picnic table in front of the shelter, the spring your dog just drank out of and walked through (noo, he would never do THAT), or the privy that I will step in your dogs crap on my way to in the dark.(No not YOUR dog).

And you claim a right to do this to me and others? I will not be bullied by you or others like you. I hike in a free country. I call you here on your obnoxious behavior and will call you out on it out there too.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 23:04
Another insightful comment from Tin Man. Weren't you going to stop posting, oh... three posts ago? Grow up, dude.

To Hiker Ranky;

1. I never said I have the absolute right to bring my dog into a shelter regardless of the circumstance. I do not believe that, nor do I practice that. See my numerous previous posts in which I've explained how I behave when hiking with my dog, instead of reading one single comment that is predicated on a plethora of others before it and then making statements based on that one single comment.

2. In response to this gem: "And you are being stereotypical as well by saying that you know ALL the circumstances under which people like Jack and Mrs. Baggins and the others that have contributed to this thread and the predecessor to this as well." - Never have I used the word "all" to describe my knowledge of dogs on the trail. Really - stop putting words in my mouth. If you actually took two seconds to read my posts, you would see that I have said NUMEROUS times that I agree there are bad owners on the trail who are inconsiderate of others, that I have myself encountered said owners and that perhaps those owners are even the majority of owners.


" Yet if I go out with that dog, and a person doesn't want the dog and I around, then I remove myself and the dog from the situation. I don't tell the person that it's my right to be there and that they are stupid and ignorant. Doesn't do anyone any good once it gets to that point"

Look at that. You've basically completely repeated almost verbatim my views on dogs on the trail - that if someone is uncomfortable, I remove myself and the dog from the situation. Had you read my posts, you'd know that. I called the aforementioned posters ignorant because THEY made assumptions that they know ALL dog owners based on their experiences - read Mrs. Baggins post! She does exactly that, particularly in her very last sentence.

:rolleyes: Just try <i>reading</i> what I've written before assuming you know my opinion.

maicheneb
05-29-2010, 23:05
To be fair, closed-minded INDIVIDUALS rarely change. +1 vote for closing the thread.

I'm disappointed by the tone of some of the posts in this thread, and I honestly expected more from the white blaze community.

hellomolly
05-29-2010, 23:09
And you claim a right to do this to me and others? I will not be bullied by you or others like you. I hike in a free country. I call you here on your obnoxious behavior and will call you out on it out there too.

READ before making ridiculous assumptions. just... READ the posts. Try it. Your comment is the equivalent of you telling someone that you're a hiker and that person saying, "oh, you must wear patagonia and eat clif bars and have dreadlocks, because lots of hikers i know are like that." Keep on with those stereotypes if it makes you feel better, though.

Last time I checked, I hike in a free country too, and as my possession (and companion, but in the eyes of the law, possession) my dog is allowed to come along as well. Sorry, but that's it.

HikerRanky
05-29-2010, 23:12
Another insightful comment from Tin Man. Weren't you going to stop posting, oh... three posts ago? Grow up, dude.

To Hiker Ranky;

1. I never said I have the absolute right to bring my dog into a shelter regardless of the circumstance. I do not believe that, nor do I practice that. See my numerous previous posts in which I've explained how I behave when hiking with my dog, instead of reading one single comment that is predicated on a plethora of others before it and then making statements based on that one single comment.

2. In response to this gem: "And you are being stereotypical as well by saying that you know ALL the circumstances under which people like Jack and Mrs. Baggins and the others that have contributed to this thread and the predecessor to this as well." - Never have I used the word "all" to describe my knowledge of dogs on the trail. Really - stop putting words in my mouth. If you actually took two seconds to read my posts, you would see that I have said NUMEROUS times that I agree there are bad owners on the trail who are inconsiderate of others, that I have myself encountered said owners and that perhaps those owners are even the majority of owners.


" Yet if I go out with that dog, and a person doesn't want the dog and I around, then I remove myself and the dog from the situation. I don't tell the person that it's my right to be there and that they are stupid and ignorant. Doesn't do anyone any good once it gets to that point"

Look at that. You've basically completely repeated almost verbatim my views on dogs on the trail - that if someone is uncomfortable, I remove myself and the dog from the situation. Had you read my posts, you'd know that. I called the aforementioned posters ignorant because THEY made assumptions that they know ALL dog owners based on their experiences - read Mrs. Baggins post! She does exactly that, particularly in her very last sentence.

:rolleyes: Just try <i>reading</i> what I've written before assuming you know my opinion.

And to you Molly, I stated that if the personal attacks didn't stop, I would close the thread down.

This thread is officially closed.