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warren doyle
10-30-2004, 17:43
This article, entitled 'Mountain Freedom', appeared in the March 6, 1978 issue of the University of Connecticut Daily Campus Magazine (Volume 4; Number 17).

This is to answer questions/comments posted in the following threads/forums
on whiteblaze.net:
Rules & Regulations - General Forum
Rescue on Katahdin - General Forum
AMC buys huge tract in 100 mile wilderness - Trail News and Update
Gathering 2004 - Get Togethers Forum
Gathering - Get Togethers Forum

MOUNTAIN FREEDOM?
by Warren Doyle

1-17-78. Millinocket, ME - 'Connecticut Man Guilty of Illegal Climbing on Katahdin Asks for Jail Sentence' This headline appeared on the front page of "The Katahdin Times." The purpose of this article is to trace events leading up to this imprisonment, hopefully stimulating thought over a controversial issue. (Katahdin is a mile-high majestic mountain uncluttered by radio towers, roads or cog railways. It is situated in Baxter State Park in north-central Maine).

9-2-75 - Ten park rangers are mobilized by the park supervisor to prevent the 19-member, 1975 UCONN Appalachian Trail Expedition from completing the last five miles of their unprecedented 2,070-mile summer journey. The rangers line up across the trail, in an obvious show of force, while the supervisor reads us the 'riot act.' The same supervisor who a week earlier had said he would do everything possible to allow our group to climb Katahdin this day.
Why all this? Katahdin holds the distinction of being the only 'public' mountain in the eastern United States that has summer hiking regulations which result in fines or jail sentences if they are disobeyed. The rule in question states: "Climbing and mountain hiking may be restricted to experienced and well-equipped persons during darkness or hazardous weather conditions at the discretion of the supervisor or district rangers."
There was no doubt that our expedition was both experienced and well-equipped for a summer climb of Katahdin. The supervisor breaking his word at the last minute by not allowing us to climb our last mountain was a bitter pill to swallow. Our rational and diplomatic discussion with him, and even a call to the Governor of Maine, were to no avail. After 109 days of unrestricted foot travel through the eastern mountains, we were stopped by the well-known oppressive atmosphere surrounding Baxter State Park.
We left the park knowing that we all completed our journey in spirit. I left two statements in the campground reflecting my feelings at the time:
"Baxter State Park, the park of the future - 1984." "It is a shame that a beautiful, free mountain such as Katahdin is in a state park such as Baxter."


"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once." Civil Disobedience (Thoreau)

( "...shall we endeavor to amend them...")
12-28-76 - In an effort to prevent another unfortunate ending for the 1977 UCONN Appalachian Trail Expedition, eight expedition members traveled up to Millinocket to talk with both the park superintendent and supervisor. We made sure that we stated the reasons for the climbing regulation first:
to protect inexperienced climbers from mountain weather hazards; to protect ranger lives if they have to rescue inexperienced climbers; to avoid the adverse publicity that would be generated by tragedies in the park; and, Katahdin's hazardous weather in the spring, winter, fall (i.e., snow and ice).
We then stated the drawbacks of the regulation:
denying individual freedom of movement by foot over public recreational land; denying individual freedom/responsibility of action; that the term 'discretion' connotes subjectivity which produces inconsistencies of judgement that might be unjust; and, regulations are alien to the 'wilderness experience' where the individual should have the freedom to make mistakes and to suffer the consequences.
Questions raised were:
Who actually owns a mountain like Katahdin? Certainly not us mortals.Then, does someone have a right to control movement on it?
Whose responsibility is it to decide whether something will be dangerous to our personal safety? Shouldn't it be a responsible/knowledgeable individual's right to decide? Should this right be taken away from them? Does our intelligence and/or common sense have to be insulted? Laws were originally created to protect ourselves from each other. Laws created to protect ourselves from ourselves need to be carefully scrutinized.
Whose responsibility is it to rescue people in trouble on the mountain? Shouldn't people 'pass at their own risk' in nature? Isn't there an element of danger in any 'wilderness experience'?

We gave the park administration two compromise solutions. One was to abolish all hiking regulations from July 10 to Sept. 10 while posting hazardous weather warning signs at all trailheads (similar to the ones found in the Whites and adirondacks); and/or require all hikers to sign legal release forms before climbing.
The other solution was for rangers to have a list of questions to ask a hiker to determine their knowledge of and experience on Katahdin and to conduct a brief equipment check of each prospective hiker. Most, if not all, AT thru-hikers coming from Georgia are definitely experienced and well-equipped to safely meet Katahdin's summer weather.
After all was said and done, the superintendent said that since our group was unusual, we should apply for a special climbing permit for the day we would finish the 1977 Expedition. Two months later, our three-page letter asking permission to climb was turned down. The reason offered was if they granted us permission they would have to grant it to others like us. Do you realize how many groups do the whole Appalachian Trail? None, but us from UCONN!

("...and obey them until we have succeeded...')
10-8-78 - I, along with three members in our hiking party, arrived at Abol Campground near the base of Katahdin. It was a beautiful autumn day and, fortunately, the trails to the summit were open. As volunteer guide for our hiking party, which included a 54-year-old gentleman on his first attempt, I carried a full backpack with extra warm clothes and a sleeping bag in case of an emergency above treeline. Upon rcognizing me, the ranger immediately told me to leave my sleeping bag in his cabin to ensure that I would descend the same day. I told him that I had it for safety reasons but he still insisted that he would not let me climb the mountain until I left the bag behind.
To me this incident was the latest in a long line of insults to an individual's integrity practiced by the Baxter State Park ranger force. They enact rules and regulations and try to enforce them with hypocrisy and fear. One can hardly blame people for not respecting laws that aren't equitable for all.

("...or shall we transgress them at once...")
1-6-79 - My friend Steve and I made a winter climb of Katahdin without permission. Two rangers following our snowshoe tracks found us as we were finishing our descent. We were given citations for illegal winter climbing. Our fines were to be $20. We both pleaded guilty under the rules and regulations of Baxter State Park, but not guilty in the eyes of Katahdin and, more importantly, in our consciences. The judge suspended Steve's fine since he was in the hospital recuperating from a fall he had on the descent. To everyone's surprise, I asked for a 24-hour jail sentence on principle. It was a symbolic gesture since I felt that the rule I violated was unjustly restricting my movement so an appropriate punishment would be unjust imprisonment. It was also to point out that it is possible to be put in jail for climbing mountains in this country. I did not feel ashamed for having the dubious distinction of being the first.

I wrote this letter/poem from my cell in the Piscataquis County jail (Dover-Foxcroft):

KATAHDIN
'Mightiest Mountain'
Which the native Americans called you
In awe of your massive authority over them.
What has become of you?
What have modern-day mortals done to you
In their quest for political glory
And authority over you?
What folly!

Thy dangerous, yet majestic, slopes
stretch uncomfortably upward
from a plain of hypocrisy, bickering and fear
brought forth by men of clay.
You are granite though.
There is no room in your vast strength
for injustice and repression
of an individual's freedom.

A man cannot own you.
Your worth is greater
than money from a former governor
Who should have realized
that a man, like buildings,
also crumbles and decays.
Your permanence transcends
possession by material means.

I sit in this small cell
surrounded by the cold, riveted metal.
I wonder if you,
KATAHDIN,
feel this way.
Do you want to be free
as you were
before the political do-gooders?

KATAHDIN
You alone are your highest authority
as is each individual's conscience.
I neither want nor need any external force
to protect me from myself or you.
If I am worthy of attaining your summit, I will.
If I'm not,
I would accept the consequences.

KATAHDIN
I grieve that your once great might
and sense of justice
have been imprisoned.
It is a shame that such a massif
so broadly conceived should now exist
so narrowly confined.

KATAHDIN
As I leave my cell soon
walking into the cool, free air
I pray and hope that someday
the men of clay
will become men of gold
And liberate you
so that you can once again be
KATAHDIN
'Mightiest Mountain'


10-29-04 So there it is. The rule was eventually changed and now northbounders are not prevented from climbing Katahdin during a summer rainstorm if they choose.

This is my last post on this website. I have grown weary of dodging the spiders in this web and I think this fish is going to avoid most of the internet.
I'll answer e-mails, continue to do programs at Trail Days and the Gatherings, and, of course, continue to value face-to-face-interactions.

So...for one last time

Happy trails to all, but especially for those who jump safely from bridges, avoid paying fees to access the trail, overcome locked gates on the trail, safely ford the Kennebec, and don't treat their water.

The Old Fhart
10-30-2004, 20:43
Apparently Warren’s dementia is getting worse because his post above contains outright lies, distortions, and irrelevant information that actually contradicts his claims. The rules of Baxter may be unique in that they hold the force of law. Nothing Warren has done has changed that and they remain in effect virtually unchanged today. If you climb when the authorities deem it isn’t safe, you have broken the law, plain and simple. There has been no change there and, if anything, Warren’s actions have reinforced the wisdom of that action. The reason Warren was thrown in jail was because of his illegal winter climb and his arrogance and has nothing to do with climbing in the rain or anything related to a normal thru-hike. He claims he “asked” for a night in jail but this has no more to do with civil disobedience than a bank robber contesting his sentence because of his claim that society has failed him. Just read his description of the event.

Warren Doyle1-6-79 - My friend Steve and I made a winter climb of Katahdin without permission. Two rangers following our snowshoe tracks found us as we were finishing our descent. We were given citations for illegal winter climbing. Our fines were to be $20. We both pleaded guilty under the rules and regulations of Baxter State Park, but not guilty in the eyes of Katahdin and, more importantly, in our consciences. The judge suspended Steve's fine since he was in the hospital recuperating from a fall he had on the descent. To everyone's surprise, I asked for a 24-hour jail sentence on principle. It was a symbolic gesture since I felt that the rule I violated was unjustly restricting my movement so an appropriate punishment would be unjust imprisonment. It was also to point out that it is possible to be put in jail for climbing mountains in this country. I did not feel ashamed for having the dubious distinction of being the first. I have climbed Katahdin legally in the winter and I know the rules. They are common sense rules designed to protect winter climbers. First, the minimum size group is four. Show up with four approved climbing members and one drops out, you don’t climb-period. Each member of the party has to return questionnaires that verify their winter climbing experience and physical condition before they can be approved . The “fact” that you have hiked the A.T. and you think you’re above the law doesn’t count. Incompetent and ill-prepared climbers put the park officials at risk when they have to go after them. Notice the line: “The judge suspended Steve's fine since he was in the hospital recuperating from a fall he had on the descent.” Thanks, Warren, for verifying this was an idiotic stunt by incompetent ill-prepared winter climbers.

The same basic rules are in effect today, nothing has changed. Just ask yourself, doesn’t almost every thru-hiker know someone who had to wait to climb Katahdin because of bad weather? How many of them have said: “oh, I’ll just climb Katahdin anyway because I know everything and the authorities know nothing.” No matter how you look at this, Warren climbed illegally because he had total disregard for others and the law. He didn’t do it to prove any worthwhile point but for his own selfish interests. Oh, and I’m sure he could write equally bad poetry on the outside.

For once I hope Warren is telling the truth when he says: "This is my last post on this website." but I’ll believe it when I see it. And for the few who cry that everyone is picking on poor Warren, that is pure crap. It is his actions we are criticizing. Unfortunately you can’t mention his numerous illegal acts without mentioning his name.

Frosty
10-30-2004, 21:08
.........................

attroll
10-30-2004, 21:17
Warren

Don't go away mad. When you are in the limelight you are the one that always gets picked on. That is the way off life.

TJ aka Teej
10-30-2004, 23:59
This is my last post on this website.
To absolutely no one's surprise, without responding to repeated requests for honesty in his postings, without answering the majority of the questions asked of him on topics he raised, after sullying the good names of both ALDHA and the Folklife Center, after publically slandering fellow ALDHA members by spreading falsehoods about them, after thumbing his nose at the Endangered Services campaign, after posting here in a manner that required ALDHA leadership to come forward and in effect say he does not speak for the organization, and while playing the pathetic victim to the bitter end...

I repeat - good riddence.

Ridge
10-30-2004, 23:59
Warren, you've bumped your noggin on the way to Katahdin!

highway
10-31-2004, 09:42
"So...for one last time

Happy trails to all, but especially for those who jump safely from bridges, avoid paying fees to access the trail, overcome locked gates on the trail, safely ford the Kennebec, and don't treat their water".

Warren Doyle:
I suspect that most of us believe that all views should be welcomed here, especially those in a minority. Where would we be and what would the world have lost had that small minority in Boston listened to the majority and not rebelled against the established authority and began peacefully throwing tea into the harbor? They had the power of their convictions; you keep yours. We'll all be better off for it, regardless of the few vocal detractors-who are just as entitled to their opinions as well.. We require divergent opinions just to grow and flourish; otherwise we wither and die

I don't know if you are right or wrong on all that you opine and I don't really care as I have enjoyed reading your responses. I do know, though, that your minority opinion about the water is correct, in the face of the majority who say otherwise, as i have tested that for myself. So, if that is true, just maybe the rest is true too......

So, I welcome your opinions. I suspect that most do too.

smokymtnsteve
10-31-2004, 09:53
while I will continue to treat my water, I will also continue to practice my own civil disobediance. Take care professor.

max patch
10-31-2004, 12:23
Upon rcognizing me, the ranger immediately told me to leave my sleeping bag in his cabin to ensure that I would descend the same day. I told him that I had it for safety reasons but he still insisted that he would not let me climb the mountain until I left the bag behind.


Interesting. When I climbed K at the end of my thru the ranger required me to TAKE my bag.

Ridge
11-01-2004, 20:47
Words, sometimes they make us happy, sometimes sad, and sometimes mad. I sometime agree and sometime I don't. I like to hear others but I don't want to be forced fed. I do like to hear different views and comments concerning the AT, even though they may make me glad, sad or mad. I'm glad we all enjoy the trail and the outdoors. I can say this, people (hikers) get along a lot better on the trail than they every will on the internet. I guess we lose the sense of fellowship by being in the cyberworld. These are just my words.

Frosty
11-01-2004, 21:27
I hope Warren is telling the truth when he says: "This is my last post on this website." I'm sorry to see Warren leave, Old Fhart. I know you don't like him but he had a lot of knowledge and experience to pass on. Whatever you think of anyone's personal philosophy, it's all the differing personalities that make our group what it is. I think when someone leaves, whether leaving voluntarily or badgered, the group is diminished.

"No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."

John Donne, Meditation XVII
English clergyman & poet (1572 - 1631)

The Old Fhart
11-01-2004, 22:51
Frosty-I'm sorry to see Warren leave, Old Fhart. I know you don't like him but he had a lot of knowledge and experience to pass on. Whatever you think of anyone's personal philosophy, it's all the differing personalities that make our group what it is. I think when someone leaves, whether leaving voluntarily or badgered, the group is diminished. Frosty, please reread my post where I said: “And for the few who cry that everyone is picking on poor Warren, that is pure crap. It is his actions we are criticizing.” Forget it is Warren for one moment, look at what he has said he did that I criticized in my previous post #2.
1) My friend Steve and I made a winter climb of Katahdin without permission. He knew this was illegal. He was unqualified and had to sneak in because he knew what he was doing was wrong.
2) We both pleaded guilty under the rules and regulations of Baxter State Park, but not guilty in the eyes of Katahdin and, more importantly, in our consciences. The hubris of trying to elevate a common criminal act committed for personal gain to the level of an act of civil disobedience is amazing. He DID NOT do this for some lofty (pun) ideal or for the greater good but because of his total disregard of the rights and the safety of others.
3) The judge suspended Steve's fine since he was in the hospital recuperating from a fall he had on the descent. This alone is proof that this was an idiotic stunt by incompetent ill-prepared winter climbers. Rescuers have been killed trying to save fools who think they know it all and are above the law.

He then ends with wishing others well who “avoid paying fees to access the trail, overcome locked gates on the trail.” This refers to his breaking and entering into the zoo near Bear Mountain and his theft of services which he claims amounted to $270 in one instance at KIW. The locked gate he refers to is not on the trail and few hikers know it exists because thru-hikers don’t have to go that way. He stole money in the form of loss income from the people who maintain the gate.

Now I ask you, if you believe in the Endangered Services Campaign, how can you condone this ongoing reckless and illegal activity by anyone, Warren, me, you, whoever? Continual criminal action is much more than a difference in “personal philosophies.” No one is above the law and to have someone who has had an influence over many who have hiked the trail encouraging others to break the law is inexcusable. He had the potential to be a great leader in the A.T. community but he blew it when he went over to the dark side. Whether I like Warren, or not, is not the issue here. What is the issue is that the Endangered Services Campaign clearly states that we should all speak up whenever we see anyone doing anything that would reflect badly on hikers in general and that is what I, and others, have done. This past Gathering ALDHA made it clear where they stood when they ousted Warren as well. Perhaps there are a few who worship the feet of this tarnished idol but the majority have seen his destructive actions for what they are. While I agree that he had a lot of knowledge and experience to pass on, he chose not to do that, and chose to incite others to emulate his illegal and destructive behavior. He doesn't give others helpful advice, he just brags about how he screws everyone he comes in contact with. Under those circumstances, the group is not diminished by his leaving, it is strengthened. I personally find it sad that someone with that potential would turn self-destructive.

Frosty
11-02-2004, 00:40
Frosty, please reread my post where I said: “And for the few who cry that everyone is picking on poor Warren, that is pure crap. It is his actions we are criticizing.” Well, I did read that, but in the same message you call him names and addrerss him personally, so that gives the imprerssion that it is about Warren to some degree. If you could address the actions without ever mentioning Warren's name, THEN it would indeed be about the actions and not about Warren. And I think your argument would carry even more weight than it does now, because it would be about principles and not personalities, which I'm sure is your intent, anyway.

The question remains, though, and I am confused by it: Why are people so rabid about what someone else does? Especially about a counter-culture type of guy like Warren is. Look at Edward Abbey. Ever read his stuff. Talk about disrespect for government authority! Nothing that Warren (or anyone on Whiteblaze) ever did could come close to Abbey's criminal activities. And we love him for it. Hayduke lives.

I spent some time with Warren in NC. THere were three of us. Me, who had just retired from Dept of Defense the week before, Warren, and another hiker who was active duty military. We teased Warren pretty good, and doubled teamed him a lot, but he never took offense to our different points of view. None of us changed our minds, of course, but we didn't get angry, either. He had one view of Iraq and the military, John and I had another, and that was fine.

I think diverstity is good, and ought to be respected especially among a group of people who are outside of the norm anyway (meaning thruhikers).

I just don't understand it. I've not met you, but I have met both Warren and Jack, and enjoyed conversations with both of them immensely. Jack and I talked at length at the Whiteblaze Gathering at Caratunk, and he gave me many valuable tips on my thruhike next year. As did Warren (who recommended Jack's resupply article as the best re-supply advice available).

I don't know. I don't see why we all can't make room for each other. ANd if we disagree, then stick to stating what we think without resorting to getting personal. Jack had a great post about name-calling and personal attacks. He said:


All too often, it's just plain nasty; instead of thought-provoking, ... comments are merely provoking, period. On the Internet, this sort of intentionally inflammatory posting doesn't elevate ....Jack's right. Not much good can come out of such posts.

(I certainly don't mean to imply that this is addressed to you or anyone in particular, but Jack is right that when angry, negative posts spiral louder and more vehement, they reflect more on the poster than the postee. Any poster, including myself.)

What I find most interesting is that people who seem one way on the internet are so interesting in person. I met Chomp once, and he confessed that he had a negative impression of me from my posts. (He's not the only one, alas.) He said my posts seemed so volatile, he had drawn a picture of "Who the hell is this guy, anyway?" In person, we were fine. I would have liked to have hiked Passaconnoway with him, but couldn't match his pace.

It must be the lack of facial expressions and voice inflection on the internet. Many times when I try for comic relief it comes across as snide and mean-spitited. And you should see my posts when I forget to use restraint.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see Warren leave. Sorry to see anyone leave, even people with whom I disagree.

orangebug
11-02-2004, 06:59
...I think diverstity is good, and ought to be respected especially among a group of people who are outside of the norm anyway (meaning thruhikers)...
As a section hiker, I think diversity is bad, and everyone should think in lockstep. :bse

Okay, we are dealing with some pretty charismatic personalities who offer a great deal, but also can be quite provocative and insensitive. They can offer criticism, but like most of us, do not like to accept criticism. They are capable of great vision, as well as miopic rationalization.

In this case, Warren has voted himself off of the island. He isn't the first one, and won't be the last.

The Old Fhart
11-02-2004, 07:53
Frosty-The question remains, though, and I am confused by it: Why are people so rabid about what someone else does? Especially about a counter-culture type of guy like Warren is. Well, the question I have is why some people turn a blind eye to a never ending string of illegal activities by one particular person? The explanation is always: “Warren is just a quirky guy” or words to that effect but they never address the fact that these are illegal activities and he also encourages others to break the law. Bank robbers are also counter-culture types of guys as well but we hold them accountable instead of saying they are just doing their own thing.

If you were with the 27 people he convinced to break the law by sneaking around the gate at KIW would you also have broken the law? I would hope that other hikers would say: “I’m not going to do this because it is illegal and immoral,” rather than turn a blind eye, or actively participate in the illegal activity. Why do some people say that the Endangered Services Campaign should apply to everyone else except Warren?

You maintain that I should respond to Warren’s post but not address him personally. What I also said in my post #2 is: “Unfortunately you can’t mention his numerous illegal acts without mentioning his name.” You feel that my words are too harsh, that’s fine. I can say that your response is clouded by personally knowing Warren and you are ignoring the facts that he freely, proudly, and continually admits to. Instead of just saying Warren is “a counter-culture type of guy” and ignoring activities you would not condone in all other hikers, address his activities I mentioned and tell me, truthfully, if you would participate in those illegal activities? Many times, like his winter antics on Katahdin, he has commited life threatening acts of monumental stupidity and arrogance. I repeat, continual criminal action is much more than a difference in “personal philosophies.” Also keep in mind that I have never suggested that Warren should not post, only that I’m please to see that he has made his own choice and left us.

chomp
11-02-2004, 09:58
Frosty is absolutly right here - the impersonality of the web makes it easier to attack people and forget the curtosy that makes meeting people so much fun. I had a great time talking with Frosty last winter, as I suspect I would with most people on this board.

However, the Warren thing has gotten personal, for a few of us. Why? Two simple reasons. First, Warren publically boasts about his illegal activies on or near the AT and even gives others the information they need to do these illegal activites. Now, its not like we are all goodie-goodies - I have on occasion broken a rule or a law along the trail. However, it is not something that I brag about or tell others about. It is my own personal choice and I make it privately. I certainly do not want to encourage others to break the law, nor do I want to give the impression that it is an OK thing to do.

Secondly, Warren refuses to actually debate, which is probably the most frustrating aspect of dealing with him on this site. Because he is typically in an indefensible position on a lot of these issues, he has no choice but to avoid debate. Agruments have been laid out here several times showing that Warren is inconsistent with the ALDHA Endangered Services Campaign, and thinks that others should obey the laws that he thinks are just, but not the ones that he considers unjust.

Put that together with the fact that Warren is a respected member of the AT community... well, there is a lot of frustration for those of us that really care about the AT. If Warren had told me quietly around a campfire abotu sneaking into KIW land, we probably would have gotten a good laugh about the whole thing. However, Warren shouted it from the mountain tops. Worse than that, he LEAD A GROUP in sneaking into this land, thus leading over A DOZEN PEOPLE in an illegal activity.

Like Old Fhart, I am not sad to see Warren go. Not because I don't want to hear what he says, but because he refuses to debate or admit that his actions have hurt the AT and its relationship to those businesses around it.

Frosty
11-02-2004, 10:55
I can say that your response is clouded by personally knowing Warren That's a fair statement. Having met the guy and knowing he is not a demon makes it hard to get overly excited because he didn't obey some rules. Also, I am shaded by the fact that although I am intensely patriotic, spending most of my adult life in the military or working on subs for the Dept of Defense (and believing in what I was doing), I am not a fan of over-officiating governmental bodies. I see nothing wrong with thumbing my nose at authority. So, yeah, I am biased from having met him.

But it isn't just Warren. When I first met Jack, I was very cautious, having read some of his posts. But I found him to be personable, polite and considerate. As I said earlier, the most fun I had at the Whiteblaze Gathering was listening to him and getting some advice. So now when I see him and L Wolf getting into it, I have a hard time reconciling the posts with the man. It helps to remember that the man was real, and the posts are just electronic impulses. I wish I had had more time to talk with him at Caratunk, and look forward to meeting L Wolf. (L Wolf I have never met either, but I have a mental image of Loki, the Trickster of mythology.)

Anyway, I don't even know why I butted into this topic. I try to stay clear on topics I consider to be not directly related to hiking, but just couldn't keep my fingers off the keyboard.

I do look forward to meeting you and others in person.

TJ aka Teej
11-02-2004, 11:09
Whatever you think of anyone's personal philosophy...What if that personal philosophy is hypocrisy? Warren posed as a champion of civil disobedience, telling readers to follow him and break laws, defy rules, and ignore regulations. But then he posed as The Man, telling readers he spoke for ALDHA and the Folklife Center, complained loudy about certain behavior, and demanded strict adherence to rules. (Behavior that he had exaggerated, rules that he had invented.) Then he decided that personally complying with ALDHA's Endangered Services philosophy was beneath him.

I'd honor Warren's person philosophy, Frosty. If he had one, that is.

Teej

lobster
11-02-2004, 12:06
From pages 63-64 of "Desert Solitaire":

"They will be needed on the trail(talking about rangers). Once we outlaw the motors and stop the road-building and force the multitudes back on their feet, the people will need leaders. A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches- that is the right and privilege of any free American."

smokymtnsteve
11-02-2004, 13:05
From pages 63-64 of "Desert Solitaire":

"They will be needed on the trail(talking about rangers). Once we outlaw the motors and stop the road-building and force the multitudes back on their feet, the people will need leaders. A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches- that is the right and privilege of any free American."


THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Bluebearee
11-03-2004, 12:54
So...for one last time

Happy trails to all, but especially for those who jump safely from bridges, avoid paying fees to access the trail, overcome locked gates on the trail, safely ford the Kennebec, and don't treat their water.


I think you forgot one: having sex in the middle of the trail in VA with one of the young female members of your group.

Interesting that that fact has never cropped up here. I have a friend who was an eyewitness to this during their 1977 thru-hike. It made a lasting impression of character.

lobster
11-03-2004, 13:21
What is wrong with that??

Pencil Pusher
11-03-2004, 14:44
Oh god, not this debate again...:rolleyes:

smokymtnsteve
11-03-2004, 15:52
I think you forgot one: having sex in the middle of the trail in VA with one of the young female members of your group.

Interesting that that fact has never cropped up here. I have a friend who was an eyewitness to this during their 1977 thru-hike. It made a lasting impression of character.

I assume it was consenual?

Pencil Pusher
11-04-2004, 22:52
So I didn't read his whole post until now. I just saw an issue that folks were bickering back and forth about before on other threads. Anyhow, Warren go sip some tea and then come back as some anonymous hiker with a different screen name. That way you can still participate without having your enemies jump on your back, and without an ego trying to justify everything typed. Either way, take it easy dude.

smokymtnsteve
11-05-2004, 08:51
Oh god, not this debate again...:rolleyes:

you would LOVE this debate PP, you pervert ;)

Minerva
11-05-2004, 09:00
Blueberry,
Your post is truly disappointing. I just can’t understand why you would post something based on hearsay about an alleged event that occurred 27 years ago between consensual adults. You’ve had this little gem in your stash of secrets for a while and were just waiting to spread rumors. Unfortunately it does nothing to assassinate the character of WD, he can do that on his own, and only reflects poorly on you.
Cindy

Rocks 'n Roots
11-05-2004, 23:02
Funny to see some of the same people who attack WF for being too rigid then come down on a free spirit.


Warren's point is definitely ideological and debateable. I think his main idea is that mountains are wild places and should always be. Although high usage reality says otherwise I think it's refreshing to see somebody feel this way - especially in relation to the AT. To me, to see it called "demented" is a crime of the soul. Some people just don't get it...

Blue Jay
11-06-2004, 11:46
Interesting that that fact has never cropped up here. I have a friend who was an eyewitness to this during their 1977 thru-hike. It made a lasting impression of character.

I have a friend who saw Sasquatch on the trail. It is not interesting that it has never cropped up because it may not a be a fact, but it has made a lasting impression.

Frosty
11-07-2004, 15:03
I have a friend who saw Sasquatch on the trail. I have a friend who witnessed an alien abduction, but it wasn't on the AT so I guess it doesn't count.

Bloodroot
11-07-2004, 15:45
I have a friend who saw Sasquatch on the trail. It is not interesting that it has never cropped up because it may not a be a fact, but it has made a lasting impression.
I have a friend who witnessed an alien abduction, but it wasn't on the AT so I guess it doesn't count.
Really? So it is possible the Sasquatch was abducted by aliens. Could've had the same friend!:D

Bloodroot
11-07-2004, 15:50
I have a friend who witnessed an alien abduction, but it wasn't on the AT so I guess it doesn't count.
Oh yeh...The alien wasn't on the AT. Anyhow it would make for a good story on the Indymedia website.

MOWGLI
11-07-2004, 18:51
I think you forgot one: having sex in the middle of the trail in VA with one of the young female members of your group.



So you think all this talk of aliens & sasquatch is weird....

I was listening to Paul Harvey on the radio the other day and he talked about this story from '77. Seems the young womans trail name was Baltimore Jill. The experience was so traumatic that she ended up having a sex change operation, but continued to hike the trail year after year. His hatred of WD has never faded however.

And now you know, the rest of the story... :D

smokymtnsteve
11-07-2004, 19:31
brings new meaning to the initials BJ :D

TJ aka Teej
11-07-2004, 23:29
You’ve had this little gem in your stash of secrets for a while and were just waiting to spread rumors. Unfortunately it does nothing to assassinate the character of WD, he can do that on his own,
This "little gem" has been a head shaker for quite awhile in trail circles, and is recorded in Fallingwater's online version of thier '77 sobo journal.
Take the report from respected members of the AT community regarding a group's leader having public sex with one of his young charges with a grain of salt if you must, but it is certainly disconcerting to say the least.

Rocks 'n Roots
11-07-2004, 23:59
I think the billboarding of this character attack, whether true or not, is objectionable at minimum and should be struck by the moderator...

TJ aka Teej
11-08-2004, 00:19
should be struck by the moderator...
Have you written to Fallingwater and asked him to remove the words about Warren that upset you so much from his online A.T. journal?

Rocks 'n Roots
11-08-2004, 00:35
In my judgment the conditions and purpose under which this information was given are inappropriate for this or any other public forum...


Whether true or not, it would be the same thing as my finding out that some member was fired at some company for misuse of funds or some other unsavory offense and then went about bringing it up every time his name was mentioned. I find it inappropriate...


In my life experience I believe I've come to know the difference between genuine concern and using something to smear somebody...

Frosty
11-08-2004, 10:41
Have you written to Fallingwater and asked him to remove the words about Warren that upset you so much from his online A.T. journal? TJ, I read the journal to which you referred in an earlier post, and was surprised to see that it was a journal by Ron Moak who runs Six Moons Designs. I asked him to verify what he had written, and expand on it. He replied:

Tom,

I don't know who you are or what you're up to, but don't quote us in any
article on Warren Doyle. Neither I nor my wife has any clue as to whether
Warren ever had sex with a student.

We don't even know if the person we passed in the morning was even Warren.
As was stated in the journal, we never met Warren. I didn't personally meet
Warren until 25 years later. At the time we had no way to know for sure who
we saw as we passed in the morning. We assumed it might have been Warren,
but that's only a vague assumption.

Also whoever it was we passed in the morning certainly wasn't having sex at
the time.

Just to let you know, I'll be forwarding a copy of this email to Warren as a
heads up.

-----------------------------------------
Ron

His journal, which he removed from the internet, by the way, referred to an incident in Massachusetts, not Virginia, as Bluebearee posted.

Should anyone doubt the truth of this post, they may email Ron Moak directly to ask him:

[email protected]

Warren and I have many philosphical differences, and I am not in the business of defending him personally. But Baltimore Jack admonished me in an earlier post that not speaking up in morally wrong and implies agreement, and someone before him said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing."

I hope this ends a sad exchange of character-assasssination posts.

ronmoak
11-08-2004, 11:31
You guys have way too much time on your hands if you can waste this much time trying to berate what someone may or may not have done over 25 years ago as a young man. Warren may have illegally climbed Katahdin. So what! The president was snorting cocaine at the time and still got elected. At least Warren admitted he climbed the mountain and paid the fine.

As to Warren having sex with a student, don’t ask me. Neither my wife nor I saw, nor claimed to have seen Warren having sex with a student. To reach that conclusion from reading our text, is stretching the English language to the max. If anyone wants to read what we wrote, they can do so at (http://www.fallingwater.com/at77/day050.asp). Nor have I changed the post since it first appeared on the web 8 years ago.

Tom “Frosty” Sweeney, next time you bother to quote a PRIVATE email on a a public website, at least do so accurately. By leaving out your original email to me, you take mine out of context. Here’s the full email I sent to Tom, it includes the complete text of his email sent to me in brackets (>> <<).

It seems from your email that you’re simply looking to dig up dirt to trash someone’s reputation. Personally I find that dishonorable and undignified. Haven’t we gone through enough of this kind of crap in the last 9 months of the election cycle?

Ron “Fallingwater” Moak



Begin Letter to Tom Sweeney
----------------------------------------------------------

Tom,

>> Just want to notify you that in a forthcoming article I am quoting a
passage from your publicly accessible www.fallingwaters.com 1977 journal
(July 31 and August 1) in which you accuse Warren Doyle of having sex with a
sudent under his charge. I realize that it is an old accusation, and wonder
if you could provide me with an updated (and expanded) quote. <<

I don't know who you are or what you're up to, but don't quote us in any
article on Warren Doyle. Neither I nor my wife has any clue as to whether
Warren ever had sex with a student.

We don't even know if the person we passed in the morning was even Warren.
As was stated in the journal, we never met Warren. I didn't personally meet
Warren until 25 years later. At the time we had no way to know for sure who
we saw as we passed in the morning. We assumed it might have been Warren,
but that's only a vague assumption.

Also whoever it was we passed in the morning certainly wasn't having sex at
the time.

Just to let you know, I'll be forwarding a copy of this email to Warren as a
heads up.

-----------------------------------------
Ron

-------------------------------------
End Letter to Tom Sweeney

Lone Wolf
11-08-2004, 11:41
As the Trail Turns. :D

max patch
11-08-2004, 11:57
Ron, reading your trail journal its clear to anyone with a room temperature IQ what you are referring to. The paragraph in question serves no purpose and should be stricken from the website. (Unless, of course, you have permisssion from the subject to disclose this item of the most personal nature.)

MOWGLI
11-08-2004, 12:07
Warren is gone from this website. Those that despise him have successfully driven him off. Give it a rest already.

Geez, I hope no one digs up the stupid things that I did in 1977. If the episode from the Led Zeppelin concert at Madison Square Garden ever gets out, I'm sunk.

TJ aka Teej
11-08-2004, 12:18
As to Warren having sex with a student, don’t ask me. Neither my wife nor I saw, nor claimed to have seen Warren having sex with a student. To reach that conclusion from reading our text, is stretching the English language to the max.
Ron,
Sorry I brought up the journal entry you provided the link to. A WhiteBlaze member, someone I know and respect, was getting a hard time for reporting something that 'a friend saw,' and I remembered that the incident was also mentioned (or so I thought) in your journal:


There was no sign of Warren when we got started this morning. Walked down about a mile and came on a camp beside the trail with two packs and a tarp set up. We could see someone on the ground, so figured they were still asleep. When we walked by we saw why old Warren hadn't passed us the night before. He was otherwise occupied with one of the three females on his expedition. I couldn't believe it! They didn't even bother to stop long enough to speak, so we just went on. Our big chance to meet the him - and all we see is his back!
Forgive me for 'streching the English language to the max' by citing the journal to support a previous poster.
--------
Warren,
You need to log off Whiteblaze if you want the cookies on your hard drive to discontinue updating the date and time you last visited the boards in your profile. I'm glad you've kept visiting every day since your 'last post', but since you're reading the boards I don't understand how you can claim things are being said 'behind your back.'

Mags
11-08-2004, 12:28
You realize we are essentially discussing if someone had sex 25 years ago. Imagine..a man in his mid-late twenties having sex with a woman in her early to mid-twenties. Oh the horror....

If it wasn't a well known trail personality would this topic even be brought up?

Move along people..nothing to see here. I think we all have better things to do then discuss who had sex on the trail be it now, last year or twenty-five years ago.

Mags
11-08-2004, 12:32
Geez, I hope no one digs up the stupid things that I did in 1977. I

I say go for it! Let people bring up what I did in 1977. Of course I was only 3 at the time... :)

MOWGLI
11-08-2004, 12:53
Warren,
You need to log off Whiteblaze if you want the cookies on your hard drive to discontinue updating the date and time you last visited the boards in your profile.

Hey, would ya looky there! We got us a regular Dick Tracy here at Whiteblaze!

:D

max patch
11-08-2004, 13:17
Warren,
You need to log off Whiteblaze if you want the cookies on your hard drive to discontinue updating the date and time you last visited the boards in your profile. I'm glad you've kept visiting every day since your 'last post', but since you're reading the boards I don't understand how you can claim things are being said 'behind your back.'

Someone needs to get a life.

ronmoak
11-08-2004, 13:49
Ron, reading your trail journal its clear to anyone with a room temperature IQ what you are referring to. The paragraph in question serves no purpose and should be stricken from the website. (Unless, of course, you have permisssion from the subject to disclose this item of the most personal nature.)

Our ’77 thru-hiker journals have been online since 1996. They were in fact the first thru-hiker journals posed on the web. Over the years they’ve been read by 1000’s of people without any hint of controversy. Why they should be causing such a stir here is beside me.

I have no intention of changing them and any request to do so seems tantamount to censorship. My wife simply made an observation as we walked by. While she said she wouldn’t use the same language today to describe the “non encounter”, that’s what she wrote then.

I’ve talked to Warren a few times over the last few years, though I doubt he really knows who I am. If anyone should have an objection it should be him. Not someone trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill!

Ron

Rocks 'n Roots
11-08-2004, 14:38
Warren,
You need to log off Whiteblaze if you want the cookies on your hard drive to discontinue updating the date and time you last visited the boards in your profile. I'm glad you've kept visiting every day since your 'last post', but since you're reading the boards I don't understand how you can claim things are being said 'behind your back.'<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
__________________
Teej


Following someone around the board like this is otherwise known as "cyber-stalking". I'm new to this board, but I find it inconsistent for my questions about Iraq to be 'moved' to an alternate board while flagrant character assassinations and personal attacks go untouched. The board rules are very clear about this exact sort of thing. This is much worse than posting private information and its motives are obvious.

Where is the moderator?

Blue Jay
11-08-2004, 14:45
Where is the moderator?

This is not the second grade. Please try to avoid yelling for the teacher.

Frosty
11-08-2004, 14:52
Tom “Frosty” Sweeney, next time you bother to quote a PRIVATE email on a a public website, at least do so accurately. By leaving out your original email to me, you take mine out of context. Here’s the full email I sent to Tom, it includes the complete text of his email sent to me in brackets (>> <<).

Ron “Fallingwater” MoakRon, not sure what you mean. I did quote your entire letter to me. I used cut and paste so I am sure it was complete. I did not have the part I sent to you. Also not sure what you mean about posting a "PRIVATE email" on a public website. I get the sense that you think that if you send me a letter, I cannot post it. When You send me a letter, it is mine to do with what I want. That's often how unauthorized biographies are written, using letters written by people. They belong to the person you sent them to. Anyway, your complaint would have more merit had you not posted my letter to you in the same message in which you complain about your email being posted. Not that I mind, I just find the double standard amusing.


It seems from your email that you’re simply looking to dig up dirt to trash someone’s reputation. Personally I find that dishonorable and undignified.
Ron “Fallingwater” MoakWe are in agreement about the dishonorable and undignified part, but I didn't look at your journal "to dig up dirt to trash someone’s reputation." The dishonorable and undignified dirt you publish in your journal was quoted by some else to me, and a second person gave me the website where I could read the dirt myself. I didn't go looking to dig it up.

As far as trashing another man's reputation, don't we have things backward here? You are the one who posted the dishonorable and undignified dirt. I would like to see such character assassination by inuendo stop. Your website was down when I checked this morning, but you tell me it is back up. If you dislike dishonorable and undignified dirt, remove the accusations you make in the journal.



You guys have way too much time on your hands if you can waste this much time trying to berate what someone may or may not have done over 25 years ago as a young man. See, no matter how far apart we appear to be, we can always find something we agree on.

smokymtnsteve
11-08-2004, 14:54
George Bush will invade WB and sit us Str8 just as soon as he finishes in Iraq...do not hold your breath.

SGT Rock
11-08-2004, 15:16
Geeze, some of you people...

Can we try not to turn Whiteblaze in to church gossip corner. Do you realize you are debating whether two consenting adults might have had sex over two decades ago based on hearsay information from someone that says he never said it in the first place.

Ridiculous. Go talk about treating water or something.