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Tripod
10-31-2004, 19:55
I came across a couple of AT white blazes that look like they have been painted over for some reason. Take a look:

http://www.frame36.com/images/aIMG_0730.jpg

They were within about 100 yards of Hurricane Gap north of Hot Springs. This is where a US Forest Service road crosses the trail. Any idea why someone would paint over 2 blazes and leave half a dozen more un-touched?

flyfisher
11-01-2004, 11:47
At several shelters in Georgia and NC, I ran across notices that said the clubs were trying to limit the number of white blazes on portions of the trail. Where the trail was obvious, white blazes would be placed about every 1000 feet and at intersections.

Each blaze would be of high quality, rimed with a black edge around the white.

I have also seen a number of what I would consider "extra" blazes hat have been scraped off or painted over with gray paint.

Right after intersections, it is always interesting to figure out if the trail I chose was the right path or an old one that has been re-routed.

Several parts of the trail in Northern TN/NC have been a little less than obvous to me and took at least a couple minutes to find the trail - sometimes it was because of my looking at my feet, sometimes it was because the markings were fairly far apart.

Top of Unicoa Mountain, it was somewhat difficult to follow the blazes through the pine trees. I met one fellow that tried to follow them at night with a little fog and became confused and had to camp until the next morning.

Along the back side of Watauga lake, I ran into several areas where it was not obvious where the trail was going, and with the ground covered with 2 inches of fresh leaves, finding the next white marker was a sporty proposition. It usually took asking myself, "If I were routing a trail from here, where would I put the trail?"

Rain Man
11-01-2004, 12:10
At several shelters in Georgia and NC, I ran across notices that said the clubs were trying to limit the number of white blazes on portions of the trail. Where the trail was obvious, white blazes would be placed about every 1000 feet and at intersections....

Well, it my opinion, this is goofy. I just hiked from Wesser to Fontana, NC this weekend. When the ground is covered in fallen leaves, and there is no cut footpath, it's VERY difficult to see an "obvious" trail.

Also, as you point out, what might be obvious on a sunny, clear day might not be so "obvious" at dusk, or in a rainy fog, etc.

"Obvious" should be judged by poor conditions. IMHO, that is.

:sun

Rain Man

.

Alligator
11-01-2004, 12:40
Well, it my opinion, this is goofy. I just hiked from Wesser to Fontana, NC this weekend. When the ground is covered in fallen leaves, and there is no cut footpath, it's VERY difficult to see an "obvious" trail.

Also, as you point out, what might be obvious on a sunny, clear day might not be so "obvious" at dusk, or in a rainy fog, etc.

"Obvious" should be judged by poor conditions. IMHO, that is.

:sun

Rain Man

.I have found that the trail is more compacted then surrounding soils and that if you pay attention to your feet, you can often find the trail under heavy leaf litter by feel. This is especially true for me when my legs are sore.

I agree with Rain Man, "obvious" should be judged in poor conditions, including late fall or winter when the undergrowth has died back.

c.coyle
11-01-2004, 12:45
At several shelters in Georgia and NC, I ran across notices that said the clubs were trying to limit the number of white blazes on portions of the trail. Where the trail was obvious, white blazes would be placed about every 1000 feet and at intersections. ...

I can't think of any reason to limit the number of blazes other than cost (which would seem to be minimal) and maintenance concerns. Any other good reasons? In any event, why would you paint out existing blazes?

As someone already pointed out, an obvious footpath can become invisible in fall and winter.

orangebug
11-01-2004, 13:33
I recall a section in NJ,just north of the pavilion, where someone had been absolutely drunk with the blazes. I swear, within 500 feet there must have been 16 blazes, all in a row. I even took a picture of it (not in digital form) as I was so impressed at the overkill.

Dances with Mice
11-01-2004, 13:54
...and not on behalf of any Club, the only time I recall painting over blazes is on relocations. The old Trail section would be blocked with downed brush and rocks at the point where the new trail diverged, then all the blazes on the old portion would be painted over. That way someone that somehow stumbled upon the old Trail would know that they weren't on the AT.

Alligator
11-01-2004, 14:34
I too have seen blacked out blazes at a relocation. Funny how you can walk right over a pile of branches sometimes and just keep going:o. I sometimes make wrong turns. How about that feeling you get, it's usually all of a sudden, "This is not the trail". Then you look way ahead, then way back, maybe go just a little further, searching for a white blaze. Of course, then all the way back. It's either, "Doh, how could I have missed that" or "This should be marked better &*%^@#!".

The "old" trail, now blacked out, might still connect to the current trail, so sometimes this works out.

gravityman
11-01-2004, 14:55
I can't think of any reason to limit the number of blazes other than cost (which would seem to be minimal) and maintenance concerns. Any other good reasons? In any event, why would you paint out existing blazes?

As someone already pointed out, an obvious footpath can become invisible in fall and winter.

I know on the Long Trail there was a section through a Wilderness Area that the guidebook mentioned that there would be fewer blazes because they were trying to keep the impact of the trail to a minimum. Maybe a similar philosophy?

The only time I seems to get off the trail is when I am following "good trail" like an old logging road. I often will just keep on walking on the logging road, missing the turn off of the trail, and often stepping right over the "barrier" erected to prevent this! So obvious when I backtrack and see it though!

Gravity

Kerosene
11-01-2004, 17:25
If the club is attempting to minimize impact, then why would you go to the effort of "blacking out" existing blazes?!? Just let them fade over time.

Part of the problem is that different blaze painters, and even different maintaining clubs, subscribe to different blazing theories. The official ATC regs are pretty straightforward, but everyone seems to want to put their own spin on them. Keep to the official size and keep the frequency such that a hiker can always see a blaze, either in front or behind them. I'm always concerned that I missed a turn-off from a "obvious" trail where the blazes only occur every quarter mile or so.

slatchley
11-01-2004, 18:29
I have had a great deal of trouble finding blazes in the winter around here. I once asked a trail maintainer and he said CT does not believe in as many blazes as other states. i took it upon myself to tie a few pieces of flagging tape in critical spots for winter travel and then took them down in the Spring. I agree, though, that it should really be based upon the worst possible conditions, because that is when you really don't want to be searching for the trail.

Hikerhead
11-01-2004, 19:23
[QUOTE=Kerosene] Keep to the official size and keep the frequency such that a hiker can always see a blaze, either in front or behind them.

I'm 100% for this. I remember having to come across Peters Mtn/Va in the dark. Even with a head light and mini mag. I could not see the blazes because they were so old and fainted. This was in Oct a couple of years ago. The leaves had covered the trail, making the trail invisible I had to search for fallen logs that had been sawed for the trial . At one time I got on a side trail or raod going down the mtn just because you could not see the blazes. I'm sure in the summer months the trail would have been easy to follow. But in the fall it was almost impossible. If the lights of Pearisburg weren't visible, I'm sure I would have gotten turned around, heading in the wrong direction.

Rocks 'n Roots
11-01-2004, 20:15
Hardly painted over I would say.

Who was in charge of that one?

:-?

Rain Man
11-01-2004, 20:47
...I'm always concerned that I missed a turn-off from a "obvious" trail where the blazes only occur every quarter mile or so.

I'll add another comment to my earlier one...

Who should paint blazes? That is, I suppose that where a trail goes IS "obvious" to the trail maintainer who walks that trail constantly.

Thus, shouldn't blazes be painted by someone who has never walked the trail before? Or perhaps more realistically, should those folks have input into where blazes should go?

After all, if the trail really is so "obvious," then novices and knuckleheads will be putting blazes the same places that the maintainers will be.

Or, is the trail not really supposed to be "obvious" if you get right down to it?
:sun
Rain Man

.

Dances with Mice
11-01-2004, 20:58
Hardly painted over I would say. Who was in charge of that one?
What R'n'R almost said was: If you find trouble with a section of Trail, drop a note to the Club in charge. I believe, without checking, that they all have Websites and e-mail. If not their mailing addresses are easy to find online. They will welcome comments from hikers.

Do realize that work projects are prioritized and measured against the amount of volunteer time available. I find it hard to imagine that blazes would be removed or painted over. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, I'm just showing the limits of my imagination. That section must have been in great shape before they assigned a project like that!

Youngblood
11-01-2004, 21:07
The ATC's website has information about blazes, try this page: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/hike_info/markings.html .

Doctari
11-02-2004, 00:30
Yea, I saw those last year, VERY confusing. I couldn't tell if it was a relocation I missed, or vandals, or what. I backtracked that 1/4 mile about 3 times trying to figure it out. Finally 2 SOBOs passed me & said I was on the right track. I wasted a good 20 minutes there.

Bad form IMHO. I saw NO notices in any shelters in the area. At night or during bad weather, that section is seriously not "Obvious" and add a good cover of leaves & it would be worse. In day light, yes, it was an OK trail, but why waste the time to cover existing blazes?? Use the time wasted to: re paint the blazes you want to keep, add water bars, maintain shelters & / or campsites, etc. I "counted" about 20+ blazes painted over, I figure about 1.5 to 2 minutes to paint (see blaze, stop, open can, paint blazes [2 per tree average], seal can, resume walk) so just counting the time wasted painting over the blazes = roughly 40 minutes. Or a little less than the time it takes me to put in a water bar, which the trail a short distance north DESPERATLY needed.

Doctari.

Alligator
11-02-2004, 00:59
I'll add another comment to my earlier one...

Who should paint blazes? That is, I suppose that where a trail goes IS "obvious" to the trail maintainer who walks that trail constantly.

Thus, shouldn't blazes be painted by someone who has never walked the trail before? Or perhaps more realistically, should those folks have input into where blazes should go?

...
I don't know if it should be by a newbie, but I do know that in keeping with the often "meandering" pattern of the trail, that the painter should be a drunk:-? .

lobster
11-02-2004, 12:23
or was a drunk???

prozac
11-02-2004, 13:36
I got to go with Rainman on this one. I think the basic problem is the maintainer knows his 12 mile stetch like the back of his hand and doesn't see a problem with the blazing. Add in fatigue,rain,darkness and unfamiliarity with that section or as in my case I'm zoned and not paying attention and it easy to get "confused". Most of the time I give it another 1/4 mile and find I'm still on the trail, but it sucks when your wrong and wind up doing a 1 mile round trip for nothing. The only other small problem I've noticed with the blazing is there always seems to be better blazing NOBO than SOBO or at least it seems that way. Now that I've bitched, I would like to give a big thanx to all the maintainers who put in all the long hours and hard work to keep the AT the premier long distance hiking trail in the US. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

weary
11-02-2004, 16:36
I can't think of any reason to limit the number of blazes other than cost (which would seem to be minimal) and maintenance concerns. Any other good reasons? In any event, why would you paint out existing blazes? As someone already pointed out, an obvious footpath can become invisible in fall and winter.

The goal from the beginning has been to create an alternative to the crowded cities along the backbone of the Appalachians. This goal has been understood differently by the thousands of people who have built and who continue to maintain the trail.

Some maintainers go overboard with white blazes. Some place too few. As subsequent maintainers come along, as wildness becomes ever scarcer, as people gradually come to understand with Thoreau that "in wildness is the preservation of the world," blaze practices change.

The goal of a blaze is not to create the easiest possible trail to follow. To do that one need only put a splatch of blaze orange spray paint on every tree. One could do that almost as fast as one could walk. It would be quick, easy and inexpensive.

But in the interest of maintaining a trail that is as natural as possible, while still providing reasonable guidance for users, the neatly drawn 2" by 6" white blaze was devised. Trail maintenance manuals say that as a hiker passes one blaze the next should be visible in the distance, and when that is passed, the next would also be visible.

On most of the trail these guidelines have been exceeded, creating more intrusions of man-created objects than are needed for safety. A few clubs and a few maintainers correct the over blazing by painting some out with a paint that blends with the natural bark of a tree.

Weary

JoeHiker
11-02-2004, 17:10
I'd never hiked before in my life until a few weeks ago. My brother took me on a section hike south in Vermont from around Lost Pond Shelter to Spruce Peak Shelter (where I sprained my ankle and we had to turn back).

On the way I noticed several different styles of blazes. Some were simple paint marks, some were white strips of plastic (looked like they were cut out from the side of a bleach bottle) nailed to the trees. These were mainly in one section -- approaching the peak of Mt Bromley. Finally, some were the very old style -- actually carved into the tree -- but painted over with white.

Does the ATC or anyone have any standards as to how blazing should be done?

c.coyle
11-02-2004, 17:12
On most of the trail these guidelines have been exceeded, creating more intrusions of man-created objects than are needed for safety. A few clubs and a few maintainers correct the over blazing by painting some out with a paint that blends with the natural bark of a tree.

Weary

I get the idea, but IMO painting over blazes never blends in and just compounds the over-blazing error. I think they stick out like a sore thumb. I wonder if it's better to just let 'em fade away. :-?

Either way, not a big deal.

Lone Wolf
11-02-2004, 17:15
I wonder if Bill Erwin cared? :-?

c.coyle
11-02-2004, 18:25
I wonder who Bill Erwin is?

Rocks 'n Roots
11-09-2004, 00:18
That could be a boundary marker instead of a painted-out blaze. That one doesn't look right. It's blue. The maintainer should have painted it over with a 'terra tone' color. But I didn't paint out blazes in my sections because they always seemed to come back. One section had oil based paint painted over with latex. The oil based-white broke through after a couple of years and we started getting letters that there were two trails. At that point it was better to just do the painstaking work with a paint scraper. Most maintainers don't want to go that far.

One evening upon walking back towards the car after some trailwork in my section I came upon a southbounder who had missed the West Mountain Shelter junction and hiked a mile downhill to where I met him. A few weeks later I carried 80 pounds of cement and a 6 by 6 pressure-treated post up there and installed a routed trail sign pointing out the shelter (which I was trying to get more through-hikers to use).

Don't talk to me about neat blazing or you're going to get a Garvey ear-full...

Rain Man
11-09-2004, 10:27
I wonder who Bill Erwin is?

http://www.billirwin.com/

A quote from that site--

"Bill Irwin, with his Seeing Eye dog Orient, is the only blind person to have completed the 2,168-mile Appalachian Trail."

His book is on Amazon at--

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567960928/104-9649336-2559115?v=glance