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saimyoji
11-07-2004, 22:05
First off, sorry if this question is a repeat.

What is the proper etiquette for people with dogs on the trail?

I was out hiking today and this yellow dog (no leash) comes sprinting up the trail and jumped on me. The dog was only being playful, but I did not welcome his advances. The owners come slowly strolling along a few minutes later and complained to me "You made him sad, he wants you to play with him." I restrained myself from ripping them a new one, but it occurs to me that this is in bad form. They should have the dog on a leash and should be mindful of my right to hike without petting dogs.

Otherwise it was a beautiful day.

TDale
11-07-2004, 22:46
"I would have made dinner out of him had you not showed up."

Dogs on leash or on the grill, owners choice.

grandview
11-08-2004, 00:10
depends on the dog....some dogs are smarter than some hikers i've met

PROFILE
11-08-2004, 01:15
:rolleyes: I am glad to see a nonconfrontational topic on whiteblaze. :D

bearbait2k4
11-08-2004, 01:37
I don't know if I would ever personally bring a dog out on a thru-hike, but am undecided as to whether or not I'd bring one out on a weekend or week-long trip.

I guess it really depends on how well the dog behaves around strangers.

There are some very responsible dog owners, when it comes to dogs on the trail, but a lot of people I've run into, unfortunately, either do not know how to keep their dog at bay, or just automatically expect everyone to love the dog. I do think that, regardless of how well the dog behaves, it's a good idea to keep the dog on its leash.

Ridge
11-08-2004, 02:29
As of now I am declaring the AT is off limits for all dogs, leashed or not.
Exceptions: 1) sanctioned, licensed, dogs for people with impairments or disabilities. 2) If freeze dried, only three packages of dog allowed per month
3) Only 1 can of dog per month,(please don't leave can in fire pit). People who insist on hiking with dogs, and are caught, will be made to sleep in a stuffed shelter on a rainy night with strange, stinking, wet, noisy, muddy dogs.
When will people learn to leave their animals at home? My dog stays at home, why can't yours? Carry a gun if you are scared. Bring a human friend if you need company. Theres a reason why the National Parks don't allow them on the trails, can you guess why?

Jaybird
11-08-2004, 06:27
First off, sorry if this question is a repeat.

What is the proper etiquette for people with dogs on the trail?

I was out hiking today and this yellow dog (no leash) comes sprinting up the trail and jumped on me. The dog was only being playful, but I did not welcome his advances. The owners come slowly strolling along a few minutes later and complained to me "You made him sad, he wants you to play with him." I restrained myself from ripping them a new one, but it occurs to me that this is in bad form. They should have the dog on a leash and should be mindful of my right to hike without petting dogs.
Otherwise it was a beautiful day.


ALL DOG OWNERS TAKE NOTE: FIDO STAYS ON A LEASH OR LEAVE HIM @ HOME!

its that simple!

Chip
11-08-2004, 07:42
Once again another dog owner gives the rest of us a bad rap ! When I hike or backpack with my dog you will find them on a leash. We always tent and stay
away from shelters. Not all dogs are meant to be trailhounds. If you are going to hike with your dog TRAIN IT !! BE RESPONSIBLE !! That includes LNT !! :)

Rosie
11-08-2004, 08:25
I don't have dogs, but I don't dislike dogs and I don't even mind them on the trail IF and only IF they're LEASHED--and not just when other hikers are approaching! The calmest, most playful dog can suddenly decide you are a threat if something seems amiss to it. When I pass hikers who have their dogs on a leash, I always try to say, thank you for having your dog on a leash. A few weeks ago I encountered a snarling dog the owner was trying to strong-arm and hold down to the ground while we passed. The dog was snarling and obviously not happy. The owner said, he's afraid of your sticks. I told the owner that if the dog attacked me I'd be using my sticks. I asked if they had a leash and would they please leash the dog. They did, but only after I insisted. My vote is no dogs on the trail because they often bring stupid owners along with them.

Blue Jay
11-08-2004, 08:25
Who would have thought a dog thread would be so funny. In over 6000 miles on the AT I have seen exactly two dogs on a leash. Both of the owners were very nice women and both dogs were obviously harmless. To think that dog people will use a leash is like believing the boys will be home by Christmas.

Rosie
11-08-2004, 08:39
I do understand the concept of wanting the dog to be able to run and enjoy being in the great outdoors too. I haven't met many dogs that are under strict voice command.

SGT Rock
11-08-2004, 08:55
And we have met others who have absolutely no business being on a trail because they are too aggressive, untrained to act correctly around camps, and/or the owner seems indifferent to their antics. As a pet lover and hiker, I am constantly amazed at the idiots with dogs on the trail.

Please leave the dog at home unless you are very responsible and the dog is trained to act correctly.

Lone Wolf
11-08-2004, 09:01
I'm amazed at the number of hikers that are illiterate. There's a huge sign by the door at "The Place" in Damascus that says, NO DOGS ON PROPERTY. Once a week at least I see a poor illiterate hiker with his dog tied to the picnic table in view of the sign.

Blue Jay
11-08-2004, 09:42
I'm amazed at the number of hikers that are illiterate. There's a huge sign by the door at "The Place" in Damascus that says, NO DOGS ON PROPERTY. Once a week at least I see a poor illiterate hiker with his dog tied to the picnic table in view of the sign.

They can read, it's just that their dog is always a special case, not like those other dogs.

Lone Wolf
11-08-2004, 09:54
How un-PC of me. I didn't think the hiker could've been a seeing-eye human.

creaky bones
11-08-2004, 12:32
I would prefer people left their dogs at home. If the dog needs exercise then take him to an open field somewhere and let them run. Very rarely have I seen a leashed dog on a trail, and once was accosted by a hostile pit bull who was obviously not under voice command.

But even usually well-behaved dogs who are voice controlled often don't stay on the trail and may take off after wildlife, which may place other hikers in harms way and is in no way LNT.

A couple of weeks ago there were a couple of young hikers with 2 or 3 dogs running loose on (and off) the trail up in Giles Co. VA. One of the dogs was missing and the owners were tromping through the woods calling it's name. When my hiking partner and I got down to the car there was the dog waiting patiently by the owners car. He looked like a friendly enough pet but was not happy when we approached. He was obviously protecting the vehicle. Fortunately our car was far enough away that we could get into it without incident.

I don't think a dog on a leash on a hike is very much fun for the dog, and a dog unleashed is inconsiderate of other hikers, the wildlife and the environment in general. I believe the best solution for everyone is for the dogs to stay home.

MOWGLI
11-08-2004, 13:26
I had 4 dog encounters during my thru-hike that were negative.

1) Unleashed Great Dane coming down off of The Priest. Although the dog growled, he was "friendly" according to the owner.

2) Attacked by a large stray black dog while on the AT just south of Port Clinton. I drove the dog off with shouting, waving Leki poles, and by throwing a large rock past the dogs head.

3) A dog whizzed on my pack while outside the Pie Lady's place in Monson. It was a neighbors dog, and not a trail dog. I was "pissed" then - its pretty funny now.

4) A couple of hiker dogs got to chasing one another at a shelter in the 100 mile wilderness. One of them ran across my tent as I set it up. I still have a muddy paw print on the tent. It pissed me off at the time.

Having said that, dogs also greatly enriched my hike. Profile & Almanac's dog Sarah was perhaps the smartest & coolest dog I ever met. D-O-G was a black stray that got ended up being adopted by a woman in Virginia. The pooch made it all the way and went home to Ohio with the hiker. Hiking with Captain and "The Kid" was also alot of fun. "The Kid" was a large yellow Lab. We had to help him up many of the rock slabs in Maine. The dog loved the trail, and did quite well. Sudden Stops & Tailgater also had a really cool Australian Sheepdog. The dog would spend all day running back & forth between the couple as they spread out on the trail.

For me, its a mixed bag. If you are going to hike a long way on the trail, I would suggest you leash your dog (for their own safety) unless your dog responds to voice commands.

Rain Man
11-08-2004, 15:37
If you are going to hike a long way on the trail, I would suggest you leash your dog (for their own safety) unless your dog responds to voice commands.

I have read several posts about "voice command" and "voice controlled" dogs.

Maybe it's just me, but I have _never_ seen such an animal. These terms remind me of unicorns. I've heard of them, but I've never seen one.

I'm not talking about dogs that "come" ... when they want to, or that "roll over" to show off. I'm talking about absolutely, no questions asked, dogs that obey each and every command of its owner each and every time, instantly, no matter the distraction.

Never seen such an animal to date. Well, exept for Hollywood movies.

Rain Man

.

Dances with Mice
11-08-2004, 16:10
I have read several posts about "voice command" and "voice controlled" dogs.

Maybe it's just me, but I have _never_ seen such an animal. These terms remind me of unicorns. I've heard of them, but I've never seen one.

I'm not talking about dogs that "come" ... when they want to, or that "roll over" to show off. I'm talking about absolutely, no questions asked, dogs that obey each and every command of its owner each and every time, instantly, no matter the distraction.

Never seen such an animal to date. Well, exept for Hollywood movies.

Rain Man

.

I have twice. One was obviously a law enforcement officer of some type out on a dayhike with his K-9 partner. Another was a backpacker with a border collie that stayed 12" from his heel at all times. Both were remarkable for their rarity.

The Solemates
11-08-2004, 16:22
When I lived in Wahalla, SC, there was a lady that lived in my neighborhood who would walk her 3 austrailian sheperd dogs every day. all 3 of them were the most well behaved, obedient dogs I have ever met. She never used a leash; they would always follow her, all 3 dogs single file behind her right heel. If a car came, she would say sit, and immediately and simultaneously without any delay, all three dogs would sit where they were. She could also tell them to go to a specific point off in the distance by pointing. When they got there, she would yell "stop" and the dogs would freeze. then she would yell "come" and they would come back and sit by her heels. absolutely the most astonishing display of dog training I have ever seen.

Shredder
11-08-2004, 16:59
I had untill his death this June a very well behaved hiking dog. He was a mixed breed, Pit, sharpei, lab. Very gentle and loving dog. He had over 1000mi hiking with me, with very few problems. He was on leash around parks/camps ect. but not in the open woods with no one around. Dogs can be better conpanions than many people. That being said I would never think about taking him on the AT, just too many chances for him to get into trouble. All his hikng was here in the midwest, MI, MN, and Canada. In the right place a dog can be great, in the wrong place, well not great. Most of his hiknig in MI we rarely ran into any people, the only trouble was one porkypine, and once he nearly ripped my arm off when he took after a coon about 4AM when in a tarp and attached to my wrist by a homemade grossgrain ribbon leash. Other that those few times he was just great to be around. Owners just need to be aware of others feelings, and realize not everyone likes a furry friend, and if it's not the right place leave him or her home..........Shredder

FatMan
11-08-2004, 22:25
I have run into many more out-of-control humans than I have out-of-control dogs on the trails.

My old hiking dog past on last year. I can assure you that in the thousand miles that my partner hiked he never was out of control. He was trained as a puppy on the trail and his most offensive behavior was he would lick whomever took it upon themselves to pet him. He was trained to stop in his tracks when he saw another hiker so I could put his leash on. I leashed him not by necessity, but to comfort other hikers fears.

I am currently training my new puppy "Cooper" on the trail. I can assure you that he will behave properly or he will not hike. He is about six months old and has put in about 80 miles on the trail already. He has currently hiked populated trails on leash and rarely used trails without. He has about another year to go before we do a serious section hike together.

I concur that the trail is no place for an untrained dog. Not only for the potential problems with other hikers, but for the dog itself. Dogs need to be gradually acclimated to trail life. Just like humans, they need to get in physical shape and develop that certain toughness prior to showing up at the trailhead. I too have seen dogs on the trail that should not be there. But I would ask that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on the issue.
For the few blatant dog haters here, be assured that you will not be bothered by my dog. I promise not to stay at shelters when hiking with him. In fact, It is rare that I stay at shelters when I hike without my dog because I often find too many out-of-control humans there.

Chip
11-08-2004, 22:54
Right On Fat Man !! Great reply in regards to having a trained dog. My dogs are trained too and kept on a leash. As I said before we tent and keep away from shelters. Dogs enjoy the hike as well and are great companions. My wife and I take our dogs on a few section hikes each year. Sometimes we leave them home, just depends on our plans for how we want to hike (with or without dogs). Anyhow it's great to see that somebody else takes the time to train their dog and is considerate of other hikers. Not everyone wants to be bothered by a dog on the trail and I understand and repect that fact. If my dogs are with me and we don't bother anyone then no harm, no foul, everyone has the right to hike their own hike the way they want. Also practice LNT too! No dog poop on the trail.
Thanks again! :)

Ramble~On
11-08-2004, 23:02
:banana Another Dog Thread.......Oh Goody !!!!!!!

I sure would like to pipe in on this one..

But Ridge already said everything I wanted to say in Post #6

grandview
11-08-2004, 23:42
I am currently training my new puppy "Cooper" on the trail. I can assure you that he will behave properly or he will not hike. He is about six months old and has put in about 80 miles on the trail already. He has currently hiked populated trails on leash and rarely used trails without. He has about another year to go before we do a serious section hike together.
There was a guy in the 70's (Kerouac-ish) who did a piece for National Geographic who packed around the States with a dog named "Cooper". You're post reminded me of his book....

Ridge
11-09-2004, 02:07
I can't remember ever seeing a leashed dog while on a trail. The term "leashed" or "on a leash" should not even be used. The only people I know to try a thruhike with a dog had to ship them back home after various dog related injuries, etc. It's because of stinking, wet, muddy, noisy dogs in shelters that I now tent only, even in the NP's (dogs are not allowed in NP's, but thats a rule continuously broken). I am surprized that reported fights and injurys have not occured in mass because of the trouble with dogs and their inconsiderate owners while on the trail.

grandview
11-09-2004, 02:22
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Deb
11-09-2004, 10:04
I was coming off the AT in North Adams, Ma. last month. I met a southbounder with a dog. I noticed right away the dog didn't move well. It had a big, bulky red backpack, not like some of the streamlined packs I've seen. You know those tiny donkeys with the enormous loads you've seen on clips from the Mideast? I flashed on one of those.
When the guy stopped to exchange a few words I knelt down to say hello to the dog, a medium-sized, red-brown lab mix. It had its head down and eyes closed. The guy said they were going all the way. I watched them walk away, the dog limping and slow.
I know I don't know the whole story, but I still think about that dog.

Chip
11-09-2004, 20:44
I was coming off the AT in North Adams, Ma. last month. I met a southbounder with a dog. I noticed right away the dog didn't move well. It had a big, bulky red backpack, not like some of the streamlined packs I've seen. You know those tiny donkeys with the enormous loads you've seen on clips from the Mideast? I flashed on one of those.
When the guy stopped to exchange a few words I knelt down to say hello to the dog, a medium-sized, red-brown lab mix. It had its head down and eyes closed. The guy said they were going all the way. I watched them walk away, the dog limping and slow.
I know I don't know the whole story, but I still think about that dog.
Sorry to read this. The owner had no business hiking with a limping dog. Once again someone who is not using good judgement. Just makes responsible owners look bad.

bagheera
11-09-2004, 21:49
This thread has me alternately laughing and crying. As a Ranger in an Open Spaces system which is in close proximity to a major city, 90% of the problems I deal with are dog owners. (Can't blame the dogs)

The People's Republic of Boulder has the most liberal dog regulations anywhere, 80% of the trails are "voice and sight control". And damn it if I don't have to explain at least once a week that seeing your dog six hundred yards away is not control. The V&S standard is an incredibly tuff standard, 90% of dogs don't meet it, it requires constant training and reinforcement which most owners do not know how to provide.

Despite many areas where dogs are permitted to be off leash, I encounter dozens of people a week with dogs in the few trails that prohibit them or off leash in the handful of trails where the are required. Most owners here are rather self centered. My favorite quote, "If you have a problem with my dog then go some where else."

steve hiker
11-10-2004, 00:33
Dogs don't belong on the AT or any hiking trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. A couple years ago, I was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. :) I actually have a friend who shot and killed two charging dobermans at a state park. The owners were pissed but had no recourse; he only got a $50 fine for shooting a gun at the park.

Chip
11-10-2004, 07:37
Dogs don't belong on the AT or any hiking trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. A couple years ago, I was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. :) I actually have a friend who shot and killed two charging dobermans at a state park. The owners were pissed but had no recourse; he only got a $50 fine for shooting a gun at the park.
Sorry to read you had this bad experience but 2 wrongs do not make a right.

MOWGLI
11-10-2004, 07:52
Dogs don't belong on the AT or any hiking trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. A couple years ago, I was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. :)

You must be really proud of your potty habits. Thats only about the 20th time that you've posted this story here on WB.

SGT Rock
11-10-2004, 08:46
Sorry to read this. The owner had no business hiking with a limping dog. Once again someone who is not using good judgment. Just makes responsible owners look bad.

Part of the problem I would have to say based on my experience is that there are so many bad dog owners and bad dog experiences out there.

Unlike some service providers getting one or two bad hikers a season making all hikers look bad, I would have to say that the majority of hikers I have seen with dogs are not doing what they should and there are anecdotal experiences of some that are doing the right thing to make hikers with dogs seem good.

How many times has a hiker been looked at funny because the stupid pet owner's dog starts barking ant them? Like it is your fault the dog doesn't like you. I have actually been told that.

How many times have you seen someone with a dog where they shouldn't be, like on a trail closed to a dog, Usually the owner tells you he doesn't care.

Read some good trail books like "On the Beaten Path" to find out why some hostels hate hikers because of the hikers that let their dogs crap in places they weren't supposed to be.

Dogs running down and standing in the water at a spring why you are truing to get some water.

Wet dogs jumping on others gear or taking over someones sleeping bag at a shelter.

Dogs attacking people, and when the person has the audacity to defend themselves, the dog owner gets pissed at the other person, not at the dog.

Dogs begging at shelter or making nuisances of themselves.

People with injured dogs that are not prepared to take care of them or ignore the poor dogs problems.

I am a dog owner (if you can call her that, she is more a family member) and a hiker. I do enjoy seeing other folks dogs on the trail - when they are well trained and are adapted to what they are doing. I made the mistake of taking my dog hiking a couple of times - trying to train her. Luckily I picked times when trails were almost totally empty so I wouldn't be embarrassed to have her bother other hikers. I carried her loads a couple of times when she was worn out, And I have decided that she hated so many parts of the hike that I won't make her do that again.

I guess what I am saying to a hiker planning to bring a dog is this:

Know your dog and train your dog. Just because you put up with some of the stuff he/she does, doesn't mean others will or should have to. I mean, your dog is another hiker on the trail. If another hiker bit you, yelled at you and challenged you to a fight, laid on your gear, begged for your food, crapped in inappropriate places, etc - well that person would not be welcomed around you when you camped. Think of your dog in the same way and train them to do the right things, and then maybe you will have a good hiking dog.

But also remember that dogs have different medical problems like cut up feet, they often hate the rain and don't want to walk in it even though you have rain gear. They can't all carry packs with their gear in it or even if they do, they cannot carry it all the time. The can't say what hurts or how they feel and often a good dog will go lame trying to keep up with their master. Taking a dog on a hike is like taking a toddler that can't talk hiking - basically making the dog hike your hike, or allowing the problems the dog may have to control your hike. There are so many things to consider other than just whether you should have him/her on a leash - which you should.

Chip
11-10-2004, 10:51
Right On Fat Man !! Great reply in regards to having a trained dog. My dogs are trained too and kept on a leash. As I said before we tent and keep away from shelters. Dogs enjoy the hike as well and are great companions. My wife and I take our dogs on a few section hikes each year. Sometimes we leave them home, just depends on our plans for how we want to hike (with or without dogs). Anyhow it's great to see that somebody else takes the time to train their dog and is considerate of other hikers. Not everyone wants to be bothered by a dog on the trail and I understand and repect that fact. If my dogs are with me and we don't bother anyone then no harm, no foul, everyone has the right to hike their own hike the way they want. Also practice LNT too! No dog poop on the trail.
Thanks again! :)SGT ROCK,
Many Thanks, your post gets right to the point ! I have copied one of my responses again. There are very few dog owners who know how to hike with their dog, a few who forget that there are other hikers on the trail. Hikers with dogs must realize that it is a totally different outing when your dog is with you. Your not in your backyard, you are out on a public trail which means respect for mother nature (LNT) and respect for other hikers. The "respect" issue goes much further, dog or no dog. We all share the trail. Thanks again!!!:)

Youngblood
11-10-2004, 11:06
I have had both great experiences and some scarier experiences with other hikers dogs. I have sometimes thought of getting a dog to take on the trail with me, but then I realize that if I take a dog, then the hike revolves around the dog. Dang near ever decision you make revolves around how this effects the dog... I am not willing to do that except for short walks.

Youngblood

cshir003
11-10-2004, 11:13
I don't take my dog on the trail not because she's not well trained or courteous, but because of her impact on the wilderness. I think it's a leave no trace issue as I still havent figured out how to train her to dig a cathole. Plus, I'm worried that her instinct might convince her that chasing a deer is much more fun than hiking with me. no dogs on the trail

Skyline
11-10-2004, 11:18
Theres a reason why the National Parks don't allow them on the trails, can you guess why?


The Smokies prohibit dogs, but Shenandoah National Park and other national park units the A.T. traverses (Harpers Ferry, DWG, etc.) permit them. SNP has 10 blue-blazed trails that are off-limits for dogs, but they are permitted on the A.T. The rule is that they MUST be leashed or it's a $$$ citation for the owner, and I've seen it enforced.

If the dog's owner is responsible (leashing, tenting instead of shelters, don't let Fido near springs, handle his solid waste in an LNT-like manner, trains Spot not to bark excessively) there's no good reason to ban that dog on the A.T. or most other backcountry places. If the dog's owner gives the finger to this etiquette, probably the owner and the dog don't belong on the Trail (and I'd bet the human causes as many problems whether with or without the dog if he/she has that mentality).

MOWGLI
11-10-2004, 11:52
Theres a reason why the National Parks don't allow them on the trails, can you guess why?

In the case of GSMNP, it may not be what you think. One concern is the spread of Parvo from domestic dogs to wildlife.

Ridge
11-10-2004, 20:42
If the dog's owner is responsible (leashing, tenting instead of shelters, don't let Fido near springs, handle his solid waste in an LNT-like manner, trains Spot not to bark excessively) there's no good reason to ban that dog on the A.T. or most other backcountry places. If the dog's owner gives the finger to this etiquette, probably the owner and the dog don't belong on the Trail (and I'd bet the human causes as many problems whether with or without the dog if he/she has that mentality).For every 1 responsible dog owner there are 9 that are not, and I am probably being generous. I can't remember running into a single responsible dog owner in my 40 years of hiking, maybe a dayhiker or two. The dogs(leashed or not) still pee on trailside vegetation which gets on hikers legs (just one of many negatives). The dog owners are simply outnumbered by those who don't want them on the trail. The dogs represent very few, if any, positives to other hikers, only negatives. Please leave them home.

Ridge
11-10-2004, 20:59
In the case of GSMNP, it may not be what you think. One concern is the spread of Parvo from domestic dogs to wildlife.Spread of Parvo to wildlife (ie: Red Wolves in GSMNP), who have no BMW to take them to a Vet in order to save their life, is the number one reason why domesticated dogs should not be allowed on any trail...PERIOD. Unfortunately, dog hikers are more worried about their dogs catching something. Another reason for exclusion: dogs going feral if lost.

FatMan
11-10-2004, 21:12
Dogs don't belong on the AT or any hiking trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. A couple years ago, I was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. :)It was humans who "allowed" the dog to intimidate.
It was humans who camped "next" to the hotspring.
It was a human who illegally entered someone's private property and dumped and pissed on the seats.

Thank you for making my case. Lots of Out-Of-Control Humans on the trails.

BTW....willk, you are a disgusting pig. You should be banned from the trails.

Lilred
11-10-2004, 21:51
It was humans who "allowed" the dog to intimidate.
It was humans who camped "next" to the hotspring.
It was a human who illegally entered someone's private property and dumped and pissed on the seats.

Thank you for making my case. Lots of Out-Of-Control Humans on the trails.

BTW....willk, you are a disgusting pig. You should be banned from the trails.


I don't believe a word of willlk's story. No one in their right mind would leave their car unlocked at a trailhead. He repeats it here on Whiteblaze more times than I can count. What a jerk

steve hiker
11-10-2004, 23:16
Me a jerk? What about those jerks with their DOG? Not only were they setting up camp right next to a public hot springs, they were using their vicious mutt to drive other people away. It was no accident. They were walking about their "campsite" and saw their mutt snarling and snapping at me at the side trail junction and did nothing about it. Nothing. They were probably even saying Good Dog, Good Dog.

You could tell they had trained their mutt to be vicious and overly territorial just like themselves. I wonder how many other hikers they drove off who hiked all day to the springs just to be run off or bitten by their "guard dog"? They got what they deserved!

bulldog
11-10-2004, 23:17
The dogs(leashed or not) still pee on trailside vegetation which gets on hikers legs (just one of many negatives).

What about that human pee from those that just turn to the side and hose away? :banana :banana :bse :bse

steve hiker
11-11-2004, 11:23
Problem with dogs is their instinct is to chase, which disrupts your wildlife experience. If your dog is behaved toward humans it's up to you, but I go hiking to see animals and a dog runs them off.

Tater
11-11-2004, 17:28
Me a jerk? What about those jerks with their DOG? Not only were they setting up camp right next to a public hot springs, they were using their vicious mutt to drive other people away. It was no accident. They were walking about their "campsite" and saw their mutt snarling and snapping at me at the side trail junction and did nothing about it. Nothing. They were probably even saying Good Dog, Good Dog.

You could tell they had trained their mutt to be vicious and overly territorial just like themselves. I wonder how many other hikers they drove off who hiked all day to the springs just to be run off or bitten by their "guard dog"? They got what they deserved!
Did you leave TP all over their car too?

Footslogger
11-11-2004, 17:49
I love dogs but, at the risk of starting an on-line fued, I'm just going to shoot straigt and say that in my opinion they don't belong on distance hikes.

Weekends or overnighters are OK, but get serious ...there isn't a dog alive that really enjoys walking on a trail for 8 - 10 hours a day for a lengthy period of time. All the tail wagging you may see is just the dog's way of showing their attempt to please their master. Taking a dog on a distance hike is more about the master than the dog.

I subscribe to a live and let live philosophy. There were several dogs on the trail during my thru last year. I got along fine with most of them. But again I say ...the dog wasn't out there because THEY wanted to be. Someone else made that decision for them.

Just my .02

'Slogger
AT 2003

Pecan
11-11-2004, 18:49
Me a jerk? What about those jerks with their DOG? Not only were they setting up camp right next to a public hot springs, they were using their vicious mutt to drive other people away. It was no accident. They were walking about their "campsite" and saw their mutt snarling and snapping at me at the side trail junction and did nothing about it. Nothing. They were probably even saying Good Dog, Good Dog.

You could tell they had trained their mutt to be vicious and overly territorial just like themselves. I wonder how many other hikers they drove off who hiked all day to the springs just to be run off or bitten by their "guard dog"? They got what they deserved!
I bet you and those campers wouldn't be snarling at each other if you had a few slices of good pecan pie.

Pencil Pusher
11-11-2004, 19:09
Mmmm... pecan pie and a glass of milk.

hikerdude
11-11-2004, 19:16
The jury is in. Out of control hikers making a disturbance should be fined and made to leave period. regardless, no exceptions.
Are they the rules you wanted? Its the new updated law most states have now if you have a problem with talking, babies crying or dogs barking after hours in campgrounds.
Such an imagination of the child.:-?

Dances with Mice
11-11-2004, 19:47
I bet you and those campers wouldn't be snarling at each other if you had a few slices of good pecan pie.

PEE can or Puh cahn?

Chip
11-11-2004, 21:15
I love dogs but, at the risk of starting an on-line fued, I'm just going to shoot straigt and say that in my opinion they don't belong on distance hikes.

Weekends or overnighters are OK, but get serious ...there isn't a dog alive that really enjoys walking on a trail for 8 - 10 hours a day for a lengthy period of time. All the tail wagging you may see is just the dog's way of showing their attempt to please their master. Taking a dog on a distance hike is more about the master than the dog.

I subscribe to a live and let live philosophy. There were several dogs on the trail during my thru last year. I got along fine with most of them. But again I say ...the dog wasn't out there because THEY wanted to be. Someone else made that decision for them.

Just my .02

'Slogger
AT 2003
I respect your opinion but don't forget some dog breeds were bred for certain jobs or task over the years. Sled dogs for one example. Not all dogs make good trailhounds. Certain breeds do and enjoy the trail. It takes responsible owners of those dogs to respect other hikers that share the trail and to know how to hike and handle their dog for their well being, the dogs well being and the other hikers and the wildlifes best interest. If owners can't be responsible then the dog stays home.

Not to change the subject but people must be responsible for their actions. One of the things I see that upsets me is when I see toilet paper and human waste above ground on the trail or not far from the shelter when it should have been coverd in a cat hole.

Most lazy people are not responsible! Some don't train their dog. Some don't
bury their own waste. Some are noisy at night in the shelter .... I could go on and on. To hike the AT is a privilege ! Too bad some folks don't understand that. :-?

Ridge
11-11-2004, 23:45
What about that human pee from those that just turn to the side and hose away?They are also dogs!

orangebug
11-12-2004, 00:44
But at least guys don't have to raise a leg.

Somehow, this argument about dog urine on the trail just doesn't make me nearly as anti-dog as the lack of a leash. I hope I don't see much of that over the next two weeks.

highway
11-12-2004, 07:31
The best trail etiquette for a dog is...leave them at home!

NICKTHEGREEK
11-12-2004, 08:21
Dogs on the trail is always an interesting subject. I hike with mine and keep her leashed at all times. Dogs you encounter on the trail are much like some of the people you meet. Some are a true pleasure, others make you wonder just where evolution is really going.

Mine- carries her own water and food
Even when wet she doesn't smell nearly as bad as some folks
She has too much self respect to sleep in or near a shelter
She's far too smart to think she can declare the AT off limits to humans, preferring to share and share alike.

Blue Jay
11-12-2004, 08:58
Some are a true pleasure, others make you wonder just where evolution is really going.......She has too much self respect to sleep in or near a shelter


Great yet another mental giant who thinks his dog has human thought patterns. Like the dog could give a rat's ass if it sleeps near a shelter or not, after carrying it's food and water all day. This is precisely the problem, dog people think that their particular dog is human. They know their "human", but they do not know other hikers. Therefore the dog wins every time. They have lost the ability to see that they are putting their human dogs over other hikers.

Lone Wolf
11-12-2004, 10:11
IF I ever hike long distance with a dog I wouldn't MAKE it carry anything. I'd be man enough to carry it's food and water.

SGT Rock
11-12-2004, 10:31
I respect your opinion but don't forget some dog breeds were bred for certain jobs or task over the years. Sled dogs for one example. Not all dogs make good trailhounds. Certain breeds do and enjoy the trail. It takes responsible owners of those dogs to respect other hikers that share the trail and to know how to hike and handle their dog for their well being, the dogs well being and the other hikers and the wildlifes best interest. If owners can't be responsible then the dog stays home.

No argument there.

True story - southbound on th AT in Georgia I came across a pair of female hikers with a small yapping Chihuahua dog. They were doing something with their packs, but trying not to be nosy, I just said hi and tried to push through. Normally that would be easy, but the little dog came at me and tried to tear me apart - I could have smushed it with one foot, but I hoped that the pair of ladies would "rescue" me from their dog so I wouldn't have too - and being a dog owner I expected them to control their dog or at least be embarrassed by it's actions. The dog nipped at me and sort of "chased" me up the trail while these two ladies stared at me with a look that was sort of a cross between "What are you doing to my dog" and "Looks like you deserve it". I wanted to stop, pick up the dog by it's scruff and hand it back to the ladies while it dangled with it's snarling attitude and educate them on what it means to hike with dogs, but at this point I was sure they wouldn't get it and I would be the bad guy. After I got out of site, I heard a car screech on it's brakes and honk with a lot of yelling between a man and the ladies. I was hoping the dog got squished, but didn't go back to find out.

So where does the annoying barking and nipping chihuahua that chased me up the trail while her owners looked at me like the problem fit in? Apparently that breed was created for the annoying factor especially for the clueless and thoughtless on a hiking trail. :D Looks like those ladies found the perfect breed for their hikes.

NICKTHEGREEK
11-12-2004, 10:45
Great yet another mental giant who thinks his dog has human thought patterns. Like the dog could give a rat's ass if it sleeps near a shelter or not, after carrying it's food and water all day. This is precisely the problem, dog people think that their particular dog is human. They know their "human", but they do not know other hikers. Therefore the dog wins every time. They have lost the ability to see that they are putting their human dogs over other hikers.
Blue Jay- you have a long way to go before you convince me your thought patterns are more advanced than the average pooch. Your generalities concerning dog owners thoughts and concerns for humans don't exhibit a great deal of depth and understanding. At least you have an appropriate trail name.

Blue Jay
11-12-2004, 10:58
Blue Jay- you have a long way to go before you convince me your thought patterns are more advanced than the average pooch. Your generalities concerning dog owners thoughts and concerns for humans don't exhibit a great deal of depth and understanding. At least you have an appropriate trail name.

Thank you for admitting you think dogs are more advanced than a human. You are the first dog person I've ever known to have done so. Believe me, I am not trying to convince you of anything, no human ever could.

ripple
11-12-2004, 11:25
I think it was meant that the dog is smarter then you Blue jay, not smarter then all humans.

Blue Jay
11-12-2004, 11:36
I think it was meant that the dog is smarter then you Blue jay, not smarter then all humans.

That comment was not surprising, since you recently asked the question, "What is a human being?" and are as confused as Nick.

highway
11-12-2004, 11:45
.... I hike with mine and keep her leashed at all times....

She's far too smart to think she can declare the AT off limits to humans, preferring to share and share alike.

About the first, I am proud of you. But my observation has been that you are still a decided minority as none of your friends seem to keep theirs controlled and leashed AT ALL TIMES. And that is where those who hike without dogs begin have a problem as your right to have your dog encroaches upon the rights of your fellow hikers who may not wish to be near them.

About the second, your dog may even be smarter than you are, for all I know, but she still doesn't get to either vote or opine on the subject.

So, please just leave the dog at home.

bulldog
11-12-2004, 11:46
I love dogs but, at the risk of starting an on-line fued, I'm just going to shoot straigt and say that in my opinion they don't belong on distance hikes.

Weekends or overnighters are OK, but get serious ...there isn't a dog alive that really enjoys walking on a trail for 8 - 10 hours a day for a lengthy period of time. All the tail wagging you may see is just the dog's way of showing their attempt to please their master. Taking a dog on a distance hike is more about the master than the dog.

I subscribe to a live and let live philosophy. There were several dogs on the trail during my thru last year. I got along fine with most of them. But again I say ...the dog wasn't out there because THEY wanted to be. Someone else made that decision for them.

Just my .02

'Slogger
AT 2003

Some dogs are bred to put in long hours on the trail, so I can't understand your blanket statement that no dog likes hiking 8-10 hours a day. On the PCT this year, I met a dog named Boomer who was having a great time thru hiking. This dog wasn't quite two years old yet, so it had plenty of energy to hike 40 miles into Seiad Valley and make the acquaintance of the local female dog at the P.O. True, not all dogs can handle the rigors of a thru-hike and it would be irresponsible for most owners to take their dogs on a long distance hike. But with the right dog and proper training, I would have no problems taking a dog on a thru hike. As for your comment about someone had to make that decision for the dog, that applies to anything regarding a dog's life. The master decides when it will eat, drink, go outside for exercise, or go to the vet.

Dan

ripple
11-12-2004, 11:49
Bluejay I am not confused.... I was just trying to clearify what was meant. Now if you didn't understand it well maybe you are confused.

Chip
11-12-2004, 19:15
No argument there.

True story - southbound on th AT in Georgia I came across a pair of female hikers with a small yapping Chihuahua dog. They were doing something with their packs, but trying not to be nosy, I just said hi and tried to push through. Normally that would be easy, but the little dog came at me and tried to tear me apart - I could have smushed it with one foot, but I hoped that the pair of ladies would "rescue" me from their dog so I wouldn't have too - and being a dog owner I expected them to control their dog or at least be embarrassed by it's actions. The dog nipped at me and sort of "chased" me up the trail while these two ladies stared at me with a look that was sort of a cross between "What are you doing to my dog" and "Looks like you deserve it". I wanted to stop, pick up the dog by it's scruff and hand it back to the ladies while it dangled with it's snarling attitude and educate them on what it means to hike with dogs, but at this point I was sure they wouldn't get it and I would be the bad guy. After I got out of site, I heard a car screech on it's brakes and honk with a lot of yelling between a man and the ladies. I was hoping the dog got squished, but didn't go back to find out.

So where does the annoying barking and nipping chihuahua that chased me up the trail while her owners looked at me like the problem fit in? Apparently that breed was created for the annoying factor especially for the clueless and thoughtless on a hiking trail. :D Looks like those ladies found the perfect breed for their hikes.
Thanks SGT ROCK, good story ! I know what you mean. Next time (I hope not) that you have a bad experience like the Chihuahua dog LET THE OWNERS HAVE IT!! They would deserve your wrath!! :clap Far too many owners on the trail get away with letting their dog be aggressive. It's not right ! They need to be responsible!

FatMan
11-12-2004, 20:23
Just like it is wise for us to educate other hikers about etiquette on the trail instead of complaining about their antics.......it is just as wise to educate dog owners about etiquette on the trail instead of complaining about dogs. Lets face it. All of us together on whiteblaze don't have the power to ban dogs from the trail. And I doubt the people with the power (NPS,USFS,States,etc.) will ever entirely do so.

Here is a great article from the ATC website for those who are interested in hiking with dogs:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/pdfs/fido.pdf

And this link is for all of those that are confused about the rules:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/hike_info/dogs.html

I am on record as one who hikes with his dog. As a proponent of dogs on the trail I would agree that it would be quite appropriate to ban dogs from overnighting at shelters. I do believe mixing dogs and shelters is a problem waiting to happen. I could be wrong but I believe most of the resentment to dogs on the trail is really due to dogs in the shelters. The trail is a huge place and there is plenty of room for all kinds....even dogs. But shelters are a very small place and I can agree that many times a single dog makes a crowd.

Happy hiking to all.....even Fido.

Chip
11-12-2004, 23:11
Just like it is wise for us to educate other hikers about etiquette on the trail instead of complaining about their antics.......it is just as wise to educate dog owners about etiquette on the trail instead of complaining about dogs. Lets face it. All of us together on whiteblaze don't have the power to ban dogs from the trail. And I doubt the people with the power (NPS,USFS,States,etc.) will ever entirely do so.

Here is a great article from the ATC website for those who are interested in hiking with dogs:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/pdfs/fido.pdf

And this link is for all of those that are confused about the rules:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/hike_info/dogs.html

I am on record as one who hikes with his dog. As a proponent of dogs on the trail I would agree that it would be quite appropriate to ban dogs from overnighting at shelters. I do believe mixing dogs and shelters is a problem waiting to happen. I could be wrong but I believe most of the resentment to dogs on the trail is really due to dogs in the shelters. The trail is a huge place and there is plenty of room for all kinds....even dogs. But shelters are a very small place and I can agree that many times a single dog makes a crowd.

Happy hiking to all.....even Fido.
Excellent post Fat Man !! Thanks ! :clap

Pecan
11-14-2004, 00:33
PEE can or Puh cahn?
Puh-cahn. Don't want anything to do with them pee-cans :rolleyes:

saimyoji
11-14-2004, 10:27
Ok, I've been trolling on this thread I started, trying to get an idea of most people's opinions. I guess it all comes back to HYOH. Dog owners who want to hike with their dog need to respect the rights of non-dog people to hike their own hike. Throwing feces and abusing people's property in retaliation is not an appropriate social response to certain disrespectful people who care nothing for their fellow hiker, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.

Again this weekend I encountered the SAME COUPLE WITH DOG, NO LEASH. This time I spoke to them about their non-leashing. They immediately appologised, produced said leash and secured their dog. Now, this changed my opinion of them and of dogs on the trail.

As some people have already stated, it is entirely in the hands of the owners to control their pet, as it is anywhere. Where I live their are stiff penalties for owners not cleaning up after their dogs. These laws control the behavior of the humans, not the dogs. Its unreasonable to turn our anger on the animals, when it is the owners who are at fault.

Ridge
11-14-2004, 14:02
They immediately appologised, produced said leash and secured their dog. Now, this changed my opinion of them and of dogs on the trail. Guess they just forgot about that stashed leash. Yea, right. Even a leashed a dog will pee on trailside vegetation every few yards, I guess hikers should enjoy pee running down their leg they get when rubbing against it. When’s the last time you've seen dog owners wiping or washing the vegetation off in order to conform with LNT? Also, try sleeping in a shelter with a "leashed (or not) dog" will bark all night, tear up stuff etc, etc, etc. Dogs do not belong on any established trail or in any shelter, period!

mattyg2
11-15-2004, 02:58
Even a leashed a dog will pee on trailside vegetation every few yards, I guess hikers should enjoy pee running down their leg they get when rubbing against it. When’s the last time you've seen dog owners wiping or washing the vegetation off in order to conform with LNT? Also, try sleeping in a shelter with a "leashed (or not) dog" will bark all night, tear up stuff etc, etc, etc.

People do the same and worse to the trail every day. You can't honestly tell me that you've never seen a person peeing on the side of the trail, or snoring in shelters, or walking all over your bag as they stroll around a crowded shelter.

Dogs should be well trained and under control the whole time. While there are frequent exceptions to this, there are also plenty of irresponsible hikers without dogs who have no regard to nature or other's people's rights.

If you are going to ban dogs, you might as well ban at least 1/2 of the hikers out there today. Instead of wasting your breath telling people they don't belong, why not try something productive like education for dog owners...LNT for Dogs or whatever. Hell, make it a new forum, have experineced dog owners post things they have done to improve their dog's manners and give advice on what works and what doesn't. Seems more productive than just sitting around complaining about this and that.

Matt

NICKTHEGREEK
11-15-2004, 08:28
I am on record as one who hikes with his dog. As a proponent of dogs on the trail I would agree that it would be quite appropriate to ban dogs from overnighting at shelters. I do believe mixing dogs and shelters is a problem waiting to happen. I could be wrong but I believe most of the resentment to dogs on the trail is really due to dogs in the shelters. The trail is a huge place and there is plenty of room for all kinds....even dogs. But shelters are a very small place and I can agree that many times a single dog makes a crowd.

Happy hiking to all.....even Fido.
Well said sir. I concur that a shelter is no place for a dog even if just passing through, and certainly not for the night. I prefer camping away from the crowds and use my tent exclusively. Perhaps if I were to ever plan a trip longer than 5 or 6 days, I would find human contact more important and leave the dog home. But for now- It's me, the mutt, and the tent far from the shelters.

minnesotasmith
11-16-2004, 17:37
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2746&page=1&pp=20&highlight=dogs

Here's my contribution to that thread, which I still stand by:

================================================

Here is a link showing that using dogs as pack animals is not that rare in the U.S.: http://www.westga.edu/~bquest/1997/mush.html

21% of respondents to Mushing Magazine's poll here used dogs to carry packs for hikers. I found plenty of other articles on the Web showing that people in the toolies are known to do this, and have it work out OK. I'd have the dog carry its own food and some water (in a pack designed for dogs), and that's it. Dogs will happily drink some stuff you wouldn't, so I expect if there is any water above swamp-quality around, you won't have to treat water for your pooch.

Now, to my personal experience with Siberian Huskies: I've owned 3, all mixes, ranging from 75% to 37.5%. Unless you are an Olympic athlete, they will walk or run you into the ground if you give them the chance. I've gone on 3 mile walks with them right after someone else brought them back from a long walk, and they hardly slowed down (pulled any less hard) one bit from start to finish, unless it was an OLD dog. When I then brought them back home and tied them back up, I invariably got plaintive "Why are we stopping so SOON?" looks from them. I've then gone inside, come back outside, and picked up an unattached leash in sight of the dogs in order to move it somewhere. 100% of the time, the dogs' reactions were "Hot *****, we're gonna go for a walk again! YAY!!". The saying with Sibs is that "one Siberian can keep three people fit". Done correctly, I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone would say that a Sib can't handle the same mileage that a human can. That said, I see these considerations about hiking with a dog, especially with a Sib:

1) Huskies like it COOL. IMO, if the air temp is going to go much above 55*F., don't try to go for any kind of distance (like over 4 miles per DAY), and walk it like you would if you had an 8-YO child along (e.g., slow with lots of stops). They seem happiest below freezing; only under about -20*F have I ever seen ANY Sib act at all irritated that it was cold out. Far more typical were all the times that I would come home about 11:00 PM on a winter night when it was -5* or -10*, and my big male Sib/Mastiff mix was taking a happy relaxed snooze on top of the snow out in the middle of the lawn (tied up to a long run, of course), ignoring his insulated dog house 15' away. I'd walk over to him, and he'd roll over on his back so I could give him a belly rub. He would have melted (it would be refrozen ice) about an 8" deep sleeping pit, in shape and size a lot like the holes dogs commonly dig in soil during summer to take cool naps in. His fricking belly would be like an electric blanket on high, at least 70*F, it seemed. That dog did not belong ABOVE freezing, frankly; weather only bothered him if it involved rain or temps over 55*F. He never once used his doghouse that I saw unless it was raining; he hated rain and even mild heat, but did not seem to even notice snowfall short of a blizzard accompanied by >30 mph winds.

So, if you want to take a Sib hiking, do it when you can keep the max air temps under about 50*F; below freezing would be MUCH better from the dog's point of view.

2) They will run off if you have them off a leash. For that reason, and because IMO there is no domestic animal alive that has one ounce of right to be unrestrained off its owner's property, you must have them on a leash 100% of the time. Note that I did NOT say 99.999% of the time. IMO only a completely inconsiderate, do-us-all-a-favor-and-give-up-hiking-in-favor-of-watching-TV-sitcoms absolute MORON would hike off his own property with an off-leash dog. I don't care if you have devoted your entire life to training your dog to operate off a leash, have won every award the AKC has for how your dog comes when called, etc.; first put your dog on a leash, put duct tape over the catch for the duration of your hike so you don't ever "forget" and let him loose "accidentally", and THEN tell me all your B.S. about how your dog comes when called, so you are exempt from normal civility requirements towards me without my prior OK. Or, rather, don't bother telling me all that, because you are NOT so exempt. Leashed, or left at home; those are the choices with dogs off your own property (at home, you can use a fence, leash or chain, or keep it inside the house).

3) Sibs are used to operating on snow. They have unusual feet with extra hair that keeps them from getting snow and ice in between their pads, so their need for anti-snow "booties" is less than for other breeds. That said, of course they can have trouble with burrs/sandspurs/thorns on their feet, getting cut on glass or sharp rock edges, etc. If I went for a thru-hike with a dog, I'd have it wear booties, and carry extras plus a sewing kit to repair them. Checking your dog's feet daily, and if he ever seems to favor them or slow down, would be a good idea while hiking IMO.

4) If your dog is loose and comes up to me threateningly (growling and acting like it is about to bite me) while I am minding my own business outside your nonshelter campsite, I reserve the right to smash its head in with an oak walking stick, right in front of you, your wife, your elderly grandmother with the weak heart, both of your small children, and an entire troop of Brownies looking on. If you gave a rat's *ss about your dog, it would be tied up; if you don't care about what happens to your dog, how in the world could you expect that anyone else would?

I will likely respond to a loose dog that approaches me in accordance with how it is acting. A friendly dog will get its ears rubbed with one hand and told "Nice doggy!" while I grab its collar with the other hand and call out "I've got your loose dog! Please bring your leash over now! If you've lost your leash, I've got some rope you can use". (If you then tell me your dog is loose intentionally, I will retort with something that indicates that I think you are in the same social class as copraphagic pedophiles, and release the dog.) If the dog is neutrally inquisitive, neither friendly or looking on the verge of attack, I'll put my back to a tree or boulder (if available), put both hands on my walking stick so that I am holding it like I would a baseball bat, keep the tip pointed right at the dog's face, and say, "Mac, come get your loose dog NOW.". (If the dog then switches over to growling, or comes closer, I'll swing my stick, aiming for his head, as hard as I can from the first swing; I might instead throw a fist-sized rock at it as hard as I can, if one is easily available.) If a dog comes over and bites me, I will start pounding it with my walking stick with all my strength, stomping and kicking it with my size 13 boots etc., until it is either dead or gets away. A small dog may be more easily dealt with by grabbing it one-handed by a back leg and hurling it wherever will be least desirable from the dog's point of view; while cactus or yucca will not likely be available on the AT, from what I've read there will often be nearby convenient dropoffs or steep slopes on the AT to chunk it over; even 5' or 10' of fall would be worth aiming for IMO. I don't think trying to strangle a small (under 30 pound) dog is likely wise due to proximity to its teeth unless you have serious gloves on (Arctic-warmth thickness or rock-climbing gloves you could shell oysters in), but I have nothing against the idea if a dog is trying to bite me or just did.

5) Pure Sibs (or ones mixed with wolf) tend to be lousy watchdogs WRT people. I would expect the pure Sibs to typically use the "lick-'em-to-death" defense tactic against strange people invading your nonshelter-area off-trail camp that get within reach of their leash. (The wolf-Sib mixes will likely just silently hide as best they can, typically being shy toward people they don't know WELL.) They will certainly let you know if any animals come along, though; great for bears and other dogs; not so great if it's tiny animals you'd rather not trade sleep for the knowledge that they are nearby. As Sibs love to hunt small stuff like mice, shrews, voles, etc., even through several feet of snow, I suspect that a camp with a Sib would have less than the usual degree of trouble from minor pest animals. My Sib/mastiff mix once killed and partly ate what I believe was a muskrat that weighed at least 20# when alive; this was a 75# dog, though. Purebred Sibs are much smaller, especially if female; don't be surprised if a Sib is only about 40 pounds.

6) Taking a dog along on the AT sounds like it could be fun, but also that it would often be a BIG hassle. Going into towns, dodging around "no-dogs-allowed" areas like the Smokies, conflicts with other hikers or townies (who wants to get beaten up/sued/arrested over their dog's actions?), transportation other than in a car you own, going through the roughest parts of the trail, extra trail expense for dog food supplies, and of course the extra risk of another creature whose getting injured may mean you not getting to Katahdin are all apparent downsides to having a dog along. NWIH would I personally take a dog along on my first thru-hike; I MIGHT consider it for my second. If I were doing a sectional hike or that second thru-hike in winter (with a breed meant for that season), when there are fewer other hikers (sharing the trail with me to be irritated and scaring off the bears for me some), the odds I'd actually bring a dog is higher. Too, women hiking solo who do not want to hike or camp with other people may have a higher desire to bring a dog; make it a dog that is less than half Sib, though, or it likely won't be much of a watchdog WRT people.

Blue Jay
11-17-2004, 09:08
Very good post Minnesotasmith.

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 09:26
I'm frankly surprised that some bleeding-hearts haven't given me Hades over my frank admission that if a dog tries to bite me, I will try to kill it, and will have a song in my heart about doing so afterwards. I supposed that hikers as a group are more realistic about the role of animals in the out-of-doors than most nonhiking people? Certainly, going by the related posts on WhiteBlaze, many AT hikers (lots of whom own and/or love dogs) have had unpleasant experiences with other people's dogs while hiking; perhaps that is nearly conventional wisdom now.

I'm glad that you found my post to be worthwhile, and thank you again for the praise.

Youngblood
11-17-2004, 09:54
I don't recall every feeling threaten by another thru-hiker's dog, as I remember all of those were a joy to be around. The very few times that I have experienced an aggressive dog was by inexperinced backpackers or dayhikers and they likely didn't have enough sense to realize the situation that they had allowed and would often mention stupid crap that they felt in some way meant that maybe they hadn't screwed up, but they knew they had. It is a scary situation when an aggressive dog comes at you, especially unleashed ones and you may have to defend yourselve... it hasn't gotten to that point for me yet but has come real close a few times.

I think on my thru-hike that I had a couple of instances with dog(s) along paved roads and was glad I had my hiking poles as they respected those and keep their distance. The only time more than one came at me I was with a couple of other hikers and was glad they where there so the dogs couldn't circle and nip me from behind.

I don't think it is productive to explain how you are going to deal with aggressive dogs on this list, I think it just polarizes the wrong people as I doubt that the people reading this list would take an aggressive dog on the trail. I say that because the problem is mostly one of education and folks reading all this stuff have probably got that figured out. About the 100% leash; I don't take a dog with me but have been with others that do and the 100% leash is not realistic or practical, however, a leash should be available and used when necessary. Just my $0.02.

Youngblood

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 10:21
"I don't think it is productive to explain how you are going to deal with aggressive dogs on this list"

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I will continue to believe that there is value in discussing this issue explicitly. My reasoning is that we discuss every other issue we can think of that has any kind of reasonable chance of coming up while hiking that can affect the quality of our experience; making an exception for a specific not-rare situation of actual physical danger seems a logically inexplicable lapse IMNSHO. If we can discuss the chances of getting sex while hiking the AT in a relatively mature manner, surely (most) of us are emotionally capable of discussing in detail what to do when we get attacked by a stray (permanently or just that day) animal?

"About the 100% leash; I don't take a dog with me but have been with others that do and the 100% leash is not realistic or practical"

If someone can only manage (for any reason whatsoever, I have little interest in what it might be) to manage the great physical effort and daunting mechanical complexity of attaching a leash to their dog's collar 99% of the time they'd like to take it off their property, they should only bring their dog outdoors off their property that 99% part of the time that they were somehow able to overcome the great difficulties of managing to hook a leash to its collar and hold onto the leash at all times. Easy enough rule to remember, I'd say.

People don't have the right to inflict inconvenience on me against my will using their animals, for whatever reason, whether intentionally ("sic'ing" it on me) or not, when I am peacefully and legally on property not theirs. That applies 100% of the time, not 99% of the time. If someone has trouble understanding that, IMO they should not own animals, any more than someone who has trouble understanding that trying to drive a car at high speed while staggering drunk should ever drive cars.

Blue Jay
11-17-2004, 10:42
I don't think it is productive to explain how you are going to deal with aggressive dogs on this list, I think it just polarizes the wrong people as I doubt that the people reading this list would take an aggressive dog on the trail. I say that because the problem is mostly one of education and folks reading all this stuff have probably got that figured out. About the 100% leash; I don't take a dog with me but have been with others that do and the 100% leash is not realistic or practical, however, a leash should be available and used when necessary. Just my $0.02.

Youngblood

Have you ever been bitten by a dog? You may be correct that it might not be productive to clearly state you will defend yourself, as dog people listen to no one and always believe their dog is an angel from heaven. However, it MIGHT help for them to know their dog could be beaten, and therefore keep them away. As for people reading this list, time and time again, some one claims their dog is superior to humans, they clearly do not have it figured out. As to their ability to figure anything out, you might have a point there.
100% leash IS realistic and practical, however dog people are fresh out of both.

TakeABreak
11-17-2004, 10:43
Well I am against dogs on the trail, although I do like dogs. From the start of my hike, I ran into obnoxiuos dog owners, at gooch gap shelter I was alrady ther had my stuff out and was eating dinner, a dog owner came in with two shephards the jumped into the shelter and ran all over my sleeping bag and made a mess. I told the dog owner to get them under control or die. He got the mesaage real quick.

Coming out of Erwin my partner was up front, dogs came running down the trail growling at her, we both got our poles ready to kill the dam dogs. the owners came running after them, and we let them have it good.

In the shanondoahs, flip flopper had a viceous dog on a leash that growled at anyone within 30 ft of her, I thought it was going to take my nuts off, it was one mean dog. There were others in the there also with dogs, running wild barking at deer and people.

In Pennsylvania a guy with knife the size of my kitchen, an axe, and handing out pain killers had a rottweilder as big as a dam pony was camped out at shelter for a week, the dam thing growled at anyone who came near the shelter. Needless to say I moved on.

In vermont I was coming down a mountain and lady with two and dog on day hike was coming up the trail. The dog came after me and once again I almost had to kill it. She put it on a leash and apologized and I almost ripped her head off.

Yes there were a few dogs out there that were ok, as I said before I like dogs, and had several myself. But the trail is no place for a dog and for feel it should be outlawed to have a dog on public lands such as hiking trail, that is not a leash or that is aggressive (when not threatened in any way). If people want to have dogs and let them run wild then it should on their own property. Not where may they may pose a threat to others.

Lastly I know people that have been bitten by dogs, and they dog owners had to not only pay some pretty medical bills, but were also fined, and got the person that was bitten sued the **** out of them. If you want to take your dog out there, you better be ready the pay the cost, no matter what it may be. Personally I do not think it was worth the threat of being sued over, a dog does not have to bite for you to be sued. If it traumatizes a person by a threatening posture, a good attorney will have you paying out the nose for the rest of your life.

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 11:12
Yes. I'm not counting accidents during play with my own, either. My story...

I was nine years old. I was silently walking alone (no people and no animals with me) on the street along the side of the street, not even on the sidewalk (there was no sidewalk). This was in a large residential subdivision on a military base, a few blocks from my house, during the afternoon in sunny good weather (no rain or anything). A standard-sized dachshund barked at me once from the front porch of a house I was passing. I ignored it, and kept walking. The dog charged off the porch at me at full tilt, coming from over 30' away. Before I could do much of anything, it had sunk its teeth into the outside side of my leg, about 6" above my ankle. It then backed up a bit, and barked at me some more. The owner (a woman) then came out of the house, all apologetic, and grabbed the dog. I don't remember everything else that happened, but I never touched the dog, and I was taken to the hospital to have the wound cleaned. I had a visible scar for close to ten years from that. I don't think the dog was destroyed, but IMO it should have been. Plus, the owner should have been told IMO that they could live on base, OR they could own animals; that they had a choice.

================================================== ===

As far as my experiences hiking the AT and Approach Trail, to be fair, I've not had a problem with dogs there -- so far. I've seen over 8 dogs while hiking, and they generally either were friendly, or ignored me. I did get barked at once by a small dog, but the owners (nice people) were smart enough to have had it on a leash the whole time I saw them. They also politely stepped off the Trail, pulling the dog away with them so I could pass unmolested.

SGT Rock
11-17-2004, 11:15
In my experience recently with that the family would have been removed from housing unless they got rid of the pet. The Army is getting tired of this sort of thing and doesn't care about size of dog or owner's excuse. I think that this is starting to be a trend across the US and some other countries. If you are on PCS orders to Germany, part of the Levy briefing is about what dogs the Germans won't let you bring over. A lot of their rules are breed specific.

Blue Jay
11-17-2004, 11:21
My question about being bitten was posed to Youngblood. I knew you had Minnesotasmith or you would not have submitted your other post. Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like. It's why we use them to torture the people both here and around the world. Very, very effective.

Pecan
11-17-2004, 11:39
I'm frankly surprised that some bleeding-hearts haven't given me Hades over my frank admission that if a dog tries to bite me, I will try to kill it, and will have a song in my heart about doing so afterwards.
Don't you think that if you gave the dog a few roasted pecans or a slice of sweet pecan pie, you'd not only avoid a bite but have a friend on the trail too?

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 11:44
"Don't you think that if you gave the dog a few roasted pecans or a slice of sweet pecan pie, you'd not only avoid a bite but have a friend on the trail too?"

First, when I'm hiking, 99% of the time the only thing in my hands is my walking stick. Second, I should not have to pay a bribe or "tribute" to be allowed to hike along the Appalachian Trail in peace. I pay more taxes than any dog does, guaranteed. Lastly, I decide who I befriend; no animal (or animal owner) gets to make that decision for me.

Now, if you'd suggested giving the dog about three Hershey's chocolate bars, some dog biscuits soaked in antifreeze, or just a handful of Ex-Lax, you might have been on to something...

MOWGLI
11-17-2004, 12:02
Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like.

Actually, I disagree with that post - completely. I am a so-called "dog person" and was been bitten by a very large German Shepard at age 10 - not some silly little weiner dog. I haven't allowed that experience to color my world completely. It has influenced me however, and I remain wary around unfamiliar animals.

Of all people Blue Jay, I'm surprised that you posted this. You rail at folks about being paralyzed by fear, then you invoke that reasoning to support your arguments about dogs. Please try and be more consistant.

In this case, I agree with Youngblood - completely.

Youngblood
11-17-2004, 12:32
My question about being bitten was posed to Youngblood. I knew you had Minnesotasmith or you would not have submitted your other post. Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like. It's why we use them to torture the people both here and around the world. Very, very effective.

Blue Jay,

That is a fair question and will try to answer.

My only dog bite was much like minnosotasmith's, when I was a about 10 yo and a dog nipped me from behind without me seeing it when I was delivering flyers, door to door, for the local grocery store. I was not seriously injured as it mostly got my pant leg and just barely broke the skin.

I do not own a dog. I enjoy the company of a well behaved dog but don't have any use for aggressive attack dogs on the trail. They don't belong there, even leashed. I don't recall seeing a thru-hiker with an aggressive dog... the key word in that statement is 'thru-hiker'. I have seen hunters with dogs (and sometimes their dogs without the hunters) and while some of them bark all dang night, I have never been or felt threatened by them, they have always been out there just doing 'their thing'.

The times I have been, or felt threatened by dogs on the trail, it has been by dogs owned by inexperienced hikers or backpackers. On occasion, these dogs were on leashes but where so big, strong and aggressive that it was too much of a challenge for the owner to restrain them for my comfort.

I have not had a major problem with dogs getting on me our my things, but I'm not all that fussy about friendly adolesent animals or kids that just need to learn what is acceptable and what isn't. We all had or have to learn these things.

Youngblood

Blue Jay
11-17-2004, 12:41
Of all people Blue Jay, I'm surprised that you posted this. You rail at folks about being paralyzed by fear, then you invoke that reasoning to support your arguments about dogs. Please try and be more consistant.


I'm not paralyzed by fear. If I were I would never set foot on the AT, I see more dogs there than in cities. Fear is a good thing. However many of the things people fear are unreasonable for the actual level of risk, bears, man eating plants, Hanta bearing shelter mice. There are some things that are true risks. Dogs attack people every single day and often kill. I was attacked yet again a month ago. The primary emotion when I see a dog is not fear but extreme anger. I know that triggers even the most gentle dog and it comes off me in waves. Fear comes next when I decide fight or flight, it's flight if possible, fight if not. Fear and anger are reasonable emotions when directly attacked.

Ridge
11-17-2004, 12:44
I would be happier if dog hikers would practice LNT and keep their animals out of shelters. But, my experience is that maybe 10% (or less) do so. It use to not bother me about dogs on the AT until my terrible run in with dogs and owners on Albert Mtn in NC. Owners at top of fire tower, unleashed attack dogs at the bottom. I walk up, alone, dogs tear up my Marmot jacket and I was bleeding before the idiots could get down and secure their mutts. Their quote "we are so sorry, our dogs have never done this before". They left as quick as they could, while I was treating my wounds and screaming at them about paying for damages. I have from that day been an anti-dog hiker and will be forever. I do have a dog, he stays at home. The scars from that day are permanent, and yes, I do judge all dog hikers from this experience, because I have yet to see a dog hiker who is worthy of my trust.

MOWGLI
11-17-2004, 13:06
It use to not bother me about dogs on the AT until my terrible run in with dogs and owners on Albert Mtn in NC.

Well in that case, I can understand. I have never heard of an incident quite like that, but I'm sure it happens.

Were they locals?

Youngblood
11-17-2004, 13:08
Ridge,

I remember you telling us about that before. That was bad situtation and one that no one should have to deal with. Obviously the owner was guilty of a lot of things and should have to answer for them... he/she was also guility of being a piece of cr*p for running away and not trying to make restitution for damages and injuries, especially when one is miles from civilization and possibly needing help. That was inexcusable and cowardly... they deserved jail time and fines.

Youngblood

Skeemer
11-17-2004, 14:09
[
Ridge wrote:
...I have yet to see a dog hiker who is worthy of my trust.

I met one, and only one, in my 3.000 miles of hiking. I hiked with him into Harpers Ferry and spent one night on the Trail tenting next to them. His dog was leashed at all times; the owner said they never took up space in shelters; he brushed the dog's teeth every night; he burried its crap and had a rain coat for it...etc...he took better care of that dog than some of my family do of their elderly parents.

When dogs attack people in Cleveland, they put them down...just like they do bears who become a problem on the Trail. It's a damn shame because both are due to human stupidity. Here's an idea...put the owner down...that would solve the problem real quick.

I have to agree...owners don't care...they and their dogs should be prohibited on hiking trails.

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 14:46
I was a frigging third-grader, and a small kid. That dog was over 1/3 my weight. To put it in perspective, it's as if a 90-pound German Shepherd went after me now. I've read before about a couple of cases where dachshunds have KILLED children. I was lucky that that dog didn't persist, or I'd have been in rather worse trouble; if I'd fallen down when it jumped me, no telling if it'd have followed its instincts and gone for my throat or not. If it happened now, when I'm a full-grown strong adult with years of karate training behind me, of course I'd win against it, but have some perspective, please.

MOWGLI
11-17-2004, 16:21
I was a frigging third-grader, and a small kid. That dog was over 1/3 my weight.

You must've been a mighty tiny third grader. What did you weigh? 15 pounds?

Ya know, I think its ironic that you talk about how you'd kill dogs in trail towns, before you've barely set foot on the AT, and after you've related how scared of black bears you are.

Critterman
11-17-2004, 22:00
A Vet once told me " not all dog owners are nuts but all nuts are dog owners ". That is the problem. One nutty dog owner on the trail can create major problems for everyone.

minnesotasmith
11-17-2004, 22:11
That dachshund was about a 25-pounder; as I said, it was a standard, not a miniature. I don't remember my weight exactly, but I seriously doubt it was over 75 pounds.

Oh, and that black bear I saw just west of the Hawk Mountain shelter undoubtedly would have outweighed me. Plus, 1 pound of bear undoubtedly >> 1 pound of city human in fighting ability, unless your name is Bruce Lee or the like. Besides, I was out there that day to hike, not to ruin anyone's day, mine or any innocent wild animal's. Even if I'd had a large-caliber rifle with me, I'd still have backed up and gone around where I saw the bear.

stickman
11-18-2004, 22:48
I've stayed out of this all week, but I do have an opinion. I love dogs, have had dogs most of my life, have one now, and maybe used to be one in another life. But when I hike, my dog stays home. If I encounter a dog on the trail, I give it the benefit of the doubt and if its friendly, everything will be fine. But if any dog comes at me aggressively, teeth barred, etc., it will get the sharp end of my stick with no hestiation or remorse on my part. I too have been biten - by a 120 pound dog on a leash held by a 90 pound woman, who was completely unable to control her animal. I required shots, etc., and that was really no fun. If I had been packing a gun, that dog would have been buzzard meat.

Stickman

Youngblood
11-19-2004, 09:35
Stickman,

Sorry you have been bitten, I understand your last statement and share your sentiment when my adrenaline is high during an aggressive dog incident. I don't know what the solution is, I believe that usually the problem is a lack of good sense or understanding of reality on the owners part. I think some people have unfounded, unrational fears of what they are facing on the trails and think they need personal protection in the form of their large aggressive dogs. These dogs are usually difficult for their owners to restrain. I recall an instance where a couple each had one of these dogs on a leash. They were able to 'hang on' to them that time, but I wouldn't like the odds on them being able to do it all day long on a popular trail.

Again, I don't know what the solution is but am glad that it is not a common occurance. My suspicion is that one outting with a scary situation teaches the owner that an aggressive dog doesn't belong on the trail and they don't come back with that dog... at least I hope that is the case. Most all of us thru-hikers have had folks back home ask what we took or are taking for protection on the trail and most folks are initially surprised when we tell them that we don't need anything. The perception of folks that don't have trail experience seems to be that you need something for protection in the wilderness, like a gun or a big dog and I think that is the fundamental problem.

Maybe education is the best hope for a better solution. About all I recall at the trailheads I'm most familiar with is an occasional sign saying that "Dogs must be confined or kept on a leash except when hunting" or something to that effect. Maybe there needs to be clearly posted signs warning about taking aggressive dogs on the trail, explaining that the owner is subject to fines and possible jail time if there are problems?

Youngblood

Ridge
11-19-2004, 22:51
Maybe education is the best hope for a better solution. About all I recall at the trailheads I'm most familiar with is an occasional sign saying that "Dogs must be confined or kept on a leash except when hunting" or something to that effect. Maybe there needs to be clearly posted signs warning about taking aggressive dogs on the trail, explaining that the owner is subject to fines and possible jail time if there are problems?

Youngblood
Even if an all out ban on dogs occured, you are still going to get those who break the rules. Example, many people still thru hike with their dogs thru the GSMNP, you can even read it in various hiking journals on the internet. They know they are not allowed, but do it anyway. These are thru hikers, who should care about the rules, so imagine how day hikers and others feel about the "stupid rule" as quoted by dog hikers I've heard. Enforcement might be a little easier than catching bicycles, atv's, and horses on the trail, but still difficult. Education, other than teaching one to read the "NO DOG" or "DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH" signage, is useless!

screwysquirrel
11-21-2004, 01:24
Even if an all out ban on dogs occured, you are still going to get those who break the rules. Example, many people still thru hike with their dogs thru the GSMNP, you can even read it in various hiking journals on the internet. They know they are not allowed, but do it anyway. These are thru hikers, who should care about the rules, so imagine how day hikers and others feel about the "stupid rule" as quoted by dog hikers I've heard. Enforcement might be a little easier than catching bicycles, atv's, and horses on the trail, but still difficult. Education, other than teaching one to read the "NO DOG" or "DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH" signage, is useless!
You got that right, these people think that their mutts are children and won't ever change. They think that since these mutts are children, that they're exempt from the rules that govern man and you'll never change their minds.

Pencil Pusher
11-21-2004, 15:33
However you want to view it, our society in general does a good job of obeying only the laws they think are just.

Rain Man
11-21-2004, 19:20
However you want to view it, our society in general does a good job of obeying only the laws they think are just.

Right, but the real test is obeying the laws they don't necessarily think are just.

I think it's somewhat like the adage "character is what you do when no one is watching."

If they only obey laws they agree with, then they aren't obeying laws at all. They are only doing what they want to do anyway. That's not really obeying laws. The laws merely happen to coincide with the actions, rather than they are conforming their actions to the laws.

Just MHO, of course.
:sun
Rain Man

.

Ridge
11-21-2004, 22:45
If they only obey laws they agree with, then they aren't obeying laws at all. They are only doing what they want to do anyway.

Right on, Right on. Preach on Brother Rain Man. You hit the nail on the head.

smokymtnsteve
11-21-2004, 22:56
yep, like Rosa Parks was just doing what she wanted to when she sat down.

Pencil Pusher
11-22-2004, 01:49
Right, but the real test is obeying the laws they don't necessarily think are just.

I think it's somewhat like the adage "character is what you do when no one is watching."

If they only obey laws they agree with, then they aren't obeying laws at all. They are only doing what they want to do anyway. That's not really obeying laws. The laws merely happen to coincide with the actions, rather than they are conforming their actions to the laws.
There are many things that keep people obeying the laws they don't necessarily think are just. History is replete with examples. You decide how self righteous you want to be in interpreting your own character. As for those last sentences, uhh... ehh... what test tube are you looking at? Even you've heard the only difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall. There's a reason the tax code is so huge. Is turning a blind eye to a criminal violation 'ethical'? How about massaging the numbers? Preach to the kids the distinct right versus wrong and nobody will argue.

Dances with Mice
11-22-2004, 08:07
yep, like Rosa Parks was just doing what she wanted to when she sat down.

I know you're not comparing a civil rights hero to irresponsible dog owners.

Actually I don't know that at all. WTH are you talking about, Steve?

SGT Rock
11-22-2004, 08:19
yep, like Rosa Parks was just doing what she wanted to when she sat down.

Come on Steve,

Rosa Parks was a human being that was denied her rights and dignity as defined by the constitution. She knew by doing what she did she was actually making a very public statement with far reaching consequences for others just like her that were being forced into living as second class citizens. A thru-hiker that breaks all the rules because they wanna have Fido is simply a selfish ass. Not everyone that breaks a law is really a consciences person fighting oppression.

Youngblood
11-22-2004, 08:28
I think we got a little of topic about whether education, signs at trailheads would help with 'problem dog owners'. I suggested it might and someone else didn't seem to think so. Can we get back on topic and discuss if there might be some merit to better/different signage at trailheads, I think it is a subject that collectively, we might be able to offer relevent solutions for if we try?

Here is part of what I previously posted:

"Maybe education is the best hope for a better solution. About all I recall at the trailheads I'm most familiar with is an occasional sign saying that "Dogs must be confined or kept on a leash except when hunting" or something to that effect. Maybe there needs to be clearly posted signs warning about taking aggressive dogs on the trail, explaining that the owner is subject to fines and possible jail time if there are problems?"

Does anyone know what the legal situation is regarding aggressive dogs on trails?

Youngblood

MOWGLI
11-22-2004, 09:42
I think we got a little of topic about whether education, signs at trailheads would help with 'problem dog owners'. I suggested it might and someone else didn't seem to think so. Youngblood

I don't think signage is the answer. Folks who have aggressive dogs will ignore the signs, and folks who like to shoot signs will have another target. Besides, there are umpteen things that you could put signs up for. You could have signs warning people to purify their water, warning about bears, camping regs, LNT, and on & on. Somewhere you have to draw the line.

What is the answer? I'm not sure. I don't think the problem is as big as some folks make it out to be. Personally, I have little tolerance for people who whine that dogs should be prohibited from the AT. Then again, the few people here who have been bitten have a legit beef.

I guess it boils down to personal responsibility.

SGT Rock
11-22-2004, 10:13
About the only thing a sign would do is take away the EXCUSE "I didn't know" which is usually an excuse and not true. I doubt it would really stop anyone, or if so, not very many people at all.

Dances with Mice
11-22-2004, 10:14
I don't think signage is the answer. Folks who have aggressive dogs will ignore the signs, and folks who like to shoot signs will have another target. Besides, there are umpteen things that you could put signs up for. You could have signs warning people to purify their water, warning about bears, camping regs, LNT, and on & on. Somewhere you have to draw the line.

This weekend I was reading the FS information sign at Hog Pen Gap and teasing one of my buddies. He'd spent the weekend hiking staring at his new GPS and telling us that we'd just hiked "1.38 miles from camp" and we were kidding him about the extreme precision and how it seemed more like '1.40873 miles' instead. I guess you had to be there. Anyway, the H P Gap sign also listed distances to places along the trail to the hundredths of a mile "0.89 miles to Tesnatee Gap" for example, and we accused him of writing it.

There were other signs on the board, about bear warnings, water treatment suggestions, and that dogs in wilderness areas are 'REQUIRED to be on a leash or under control at all times'. That sign was at the border of the Raven Cliffs Wilderness and the Mark Trail Wilderness areas. So some signs are already posted, but they leave wiggle room by not defining what 'under control' means. I wished it read "...on a leash AND under control...".

After I almost go bitten on the butt by a Rottweiler south of Hightower Gap, I've carried pepper spray. I bought two cannisters then went out in my backyard and used one so I know how far, wide, and how much it sprays. Target practice, I guess. I keep it in my pocket and reach for it when I see an unleashed dog while saying "Hi, Puppy! How you doing, boy? Good dog!". Never had to use it.

smokymtnsteve
11-22-2004, 10:35
Right, but the real test is obeying the laws they don't necessarily think are just.

I think it's somewhat like the adage "character is what you do when no one is watching."

If they only obey laws they agree with, then they aren't obeying laws at all. They are only doing what they want to do anyway. That's not really obeying laws. The laws merely happen to coincide with the actions, rather than they are conforming their actions to the laws.

Just MHO, of course.
:sun
Rain Man

.

the rosa parks comment was in relation to this

Youngblood
11-22-2004, 10:42
About the only thing a sign would do is take away the EXCUSE "I didn't know" which is usually an excuse and not true. I doubt it would really stop anyone, or if so, not very many people at all.

First of all, thanks to everyone for getting back on topic.

I look back at my experiences and feel that when I have seen aggressive/problem dogs, that usually the owners were inexperienced with being on the trail. I suspect that many of them think that the trail is a wild area where you need personal protection and feel that they either need a gun or a protective dog to safely survive the experience... some people think snakes, bears, wolves, crazy folks, etc are on the trail just waiting for defenseless folks to happen along. While I was often angry at them because of the danger their dog presented to me, I didn't feel that their intent was to do me harm. I also suspect that some of these owners did not return to the trail with their dog because they learned it was the wrong thing to do.

So, from that perspective, I think that signs that warn/educate about aggressive dogs might help. Do I think that it would completely eliminate the problem... no. But if it reduced it by say 25%, that would be something, at least a good start. You can't always find solutions that work 100% of the time, sometimes you have to do the best you can taking into account what the options are and keep working at it if need be.

Youngblood

Rain Man
11-22-2004, 11:54
yep, like Rosa Parks was just doing what she wanted to when she sat down.

Good point, Steve. The flip side of what I was saying. Nevertheless, I'd surely support Rosa Parks' civil disobedience for such systemic and grave injustice!
:sun
Rain Man

.

screwysquirrel
11-24-2004, 01:37
Good point, Steve. The flip side of what I was saying. Nevertheless, I'd surely support Rosa Parks' civil disobedience for such systemic and grave injustice!
:sun
Rain Man

. Since when does the civil rights movement have anything to do with the AT?
:-? :-?

Mother Hen
11-30-2004, 07:31
My son is hiking the AT this winter. He plans to bring his dog. I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??

Blue Jay
11-30-2004, 09:13
My son is hiking the AT this winter. He plans to bring his dog. I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??

You are correct, most people would be wearing a lot of clothing so they would be padded and more protected from the teeth. Plus, unless it was a Husky or other cold weather dog, it's feet would be so frozen they could not walk, let alone chase anything. This is a good idea (unless you're the dog).

MOWGLI
11-30-2004, 10:49
My son is hiking the AT this winter. He plans to bring his dog. I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??

Mother Hen, pay no attention to Blue Jay. He has a bit of a social disorder that manifests itself whenever dogs are discussed on Whiteblaze. :D

As long as your son keeps his dog under control and is respectful of the other hikers, it should't be a problem.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to Whiteblaze.

Rain Man
11-30-2004, 11:04
... I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??

Mother Hen,

I don't want to step into the rabid (pun intended) dogs-on-trails discussion, but I will offer this for your consideration --

Saying that it's a less-traveled season might be looked upon by those other hikers as the very reason they choose to be out there then, NOT to be running into folks with their dogs on the trail.

Anyway, your son's perspective is one, but not the only one. He might want to consider several perspectives, before he decides based on his perspective alone (that would be wrong, IMHO, since you asked).

Clear as mud?

Whatever he decides, I hope he has a fun and safe hike!!!

And as Mowgli said, Welcome to WhiteBlaze!!!
:sun
Rain Man

.

minnesotasmith
11-30-2004, 23:27
MOWGLI said:

"As long as your son keeps his dog under control and is respectful of the other hikers, it should't be a problem."

Just remember that "under control" is defined on public hiking trails as meaning his dog is hooked to a leash that is either he is holding, or is tied to a fixed object like a tree 100.000% (not 99.999%) of the time. Also, IMO it means that the dog never once comes into shelters for one second, near other hikers while they are cooking (or their campsites), while hiking your son steps off the Trail (pulling the dog after him) so hikers coming the other way aren't forced to interact with his dog without initiating the interaction, etc. Anything less than this standard of behavior would mean that your son should not bring a dog on the Trail.

Ridge
11-30-2004, 23:46
My son is hiking the AT this winter. He plans to bring his dog. I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??As long as the dog is kept on a leash and out of the shelters 100 percent of the time. Dog crap buried. No peeing on trailside vegetation....yea right.

Ramble~On
12-01-2004, 02:59
" A Footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness"

If you seek fellowship with your dog you could do it at home....in private....nobody would know....

Pencil Pusher
12-01-2004, 03:42
Come on Steve,

Rosa Parks was a human being that was denied her rights and dignity as defined by the constitution. She knew by doing what she did she was actually making a very public statement with far reaching consequences for others just like her that were being forced into living as second class citizens. A thru-hiker that breaks all the rules because they wanna have Fido is simply a selfish ass. Not everyone that breaks a law is really a consciences person fighting oppression.
See how demeaning this prejudice is against dogs? All dog owners are trying to do is show how their dog's rights and dignities are being denied! Heck, they're not even granted rights under the US Constitution. Preposterous! Dogs unite with the Black Bears Club of America and fight this oppression by humans!

MOWGLI
12-01-2004, 08:11
MOWGLI said:

"As long as your son keeps his dog under control and is respectful of the other hikers, it should't be a problem."

Just remember that "under control" is defined on public hiking trails as meaning his dog is hooked to a leash that is either he is holding, or is tied to a fixed object like a tree 100.000% (not 99.999%) of the time. Also, IMO it means that the dog never once comes into shelters for one second, near other hikers while they are cooking (or their campsites), while hiking your son steps off the Trail (pulling the dog after him) so hikers coming the other way aren't forced to interact with his dog without initiating the interaction, etc. Anything less than this standard of behavior would mean that your son should not bring a dog on the Trail.

Ya know, I just love it when someone who has barely set foot on the Appalachian Trail seeks to correct someone who has walked the entire trail, and then some. The quote above does NOT reflect the regulations along the trail. Nor does it represent the standard that hikers with dogs should be held to - IMO.

Minnesota Smith, why don't you try actually spending a few nights out on the trail before you try and sound off as a trail authority.

Blue Jay
12-01-2004, 09:48
Ya know, I just love it when someone who has barely set foot on the Appalachian Trail seeks to correct someone who has walked the entire trail, and then some. The quote above does NOT reflect the regulations along the trail. Nor does it represent the standard that hikers with dogs should be held to - IMO.

Minnesota Smith, why don't you try actually spending a few nights out on the trail before you try and sound off as a trail authority.

Yes, stick with racism and misogyny, subjects of which you have extreme knowledge. Frankly, I'll take a vicious dog over you any time.

Lone Wolf
12-01-2004, 09:51
Minnesotadude hates wimmins? (had to look up misogyny :) )

Dances with Mice
12-01-2004, 10:43
Minnesotadude hates wimmins? (had to look up misogyny :) )There's a bunch of people here I wouldn't play Scrabble with.

Blue Jay
12-01-2004, 10:50
There's a bunch of people here I wouldn't play Scrabble with.

Actually, I had to look up the spelling. Why wouldn't you play Scrabble with us, you'd most likely win?

Dances with Mice
12-01-2004, 10:57
Actually, I had to look up the spelling. Why wouldn't you play Scrabble with us, you'd most likely win?Are we spelling 'Scrabble' right?

rocket04
12-01-2004, 12:47
MOWGLI said:
Just remember that "under control" is defined on public hiking trails as meaning his dog is hooked to a leash that is either he is holding, or is tied to a fixed object like a tree 100.000% (not 99.999%) of the time. Also, IMO it means that the dog never once comes into shelters for one second, near other hikers while they are cooking (or their campsites), while hiking your son steps off the Trail (pulling the dog after him) so hikers coming the other way aren't forced to interact with his dog without initiating the interaction, etc. Anything less than this standard of behavior would mean that your son should not bring a dog on the Trail.
I disagree. I saw plenty of people on the trail with dogs that didn't bother anybody. They asked people if they minded the dog, if they had a problem with it going in the shelter, etc. and then acted accordingly based on people's responses. IMO, that was appropriate and reasonable.

For somebody willing to enter the unpredictability of the forest, a dog here and there is hardly a big deal. And if you don't have it in you to tell somebody that you'd prefer not to have a dog in the shelter, then you're the one with a problem and not the other way around.

Lone Wolf
12-01-2004, 12:52
Dogs should never be in a shelter even if everybody there is in agreeance. Ticks, fleas and other nasties will be left behind. Not that I care cuz I don't sleep in the nasty boxes.

attroll
12-01-2004, 13:30
Lets stick to the subject here.

Dances with Mice
12-01-2004, 13:41
Dogs should never be in a shelter even if everybody there is in agreeance. Ticks, fleas and other nasties will be left behind ....... and you wouldn't want them to get on your dog.

minnesotasmith
12-01-2004, 22:10
1) I am an anti-misandrist, not a misogynist. Unless you are a female member of N.O.W. or hate yourself (there is no doubt a psychiatric name for that latter condition), you should be one as well.

2) I am primarily drawing upon my life experience of over four decades in formulating my positions on dogs out in public. I may have less than 200 miles total on the AT, but I have far more experience both in hiking other trails while younger, and going for innumerable multi-mile day walks from wherever I happened to live at the time. I have been bitten by loose dogs a couple of times while out walking (minding my own business), and have been threatened by them (not just barked at) scores of times. Surely you do not mean to argue that stray dogs have a greater right to the world than do adult human beings?

While I have loved having dogs as pets in the past (and will own dogs again within a couple of years), it is abundantly clear to me from these four decades of life that dogs which are loose off their owner's property are a wrongful (morally and legally) hindrance to the simple healthy pleasure of walking the Earth. Those who cause such a part of normal living to be made difficult and unpleasant, even dangerous, IMNSHO deserve whatever social and legal sanctions it takes to make them change their behavior.

3) BTW, you will learn far more if you emote less, and reason more. When you have a choice between those two approaches to a new situation, choose the latter; it's the sentient, nonanimal path.

Ridge
12-01-2004, 23:25
I disagree. I saw plenty of people on the trail with dogs that didn't bother anybody. They asked people if they minded the dog, if they had a problem with it going in the shelter, etc. and then acted accordingly based on people's responses. IMO, that was appropriate and reasonable.

For somebody willing to enter the unpredictability of the forest, a dog here and there is hardly a big deal. And if you don't have it in you to tell somebody that you'd prefer not to have a dog in the shelter, then you're the one with a problem and not the other way around.
Do you know why the GSMNP bans dogs? I guess a little Parvo here and there is OK. No one has ever asked me if I minded their dog, but I've only been hiking 40 years and thousands of miles. I have had serious confrontations with dog owners who allowed their dog to take a sleeping space in a shelter, "the dog is tired too, and needs to sleep next to me". Dogs just need to be banned.

rocket04
12-02-2004, 00:19
Surely you do not mean to argue that stray dogs have a greater right to the world than do adult human beings?Surely, you don't mean to argue that adult human beings have a greater right to the world than stray dogs.


While I have loved having dogs as pets in the past (and will own dogs again within a couple of years), it is abundantly clear to me from these four decades of life that dogs which are loose off their owner's property are a wrongful (morally and legally) hindrance to the simple healthy pleasure of walking the Earth.Those loose bears can be quite a hindrance too... :D

minnesotasmith
12-02-2004, 04:17
"Surely, you don't mean to argue that adult human beings have a greater right to the world than stray dogs"

Yes, adult humans *DO* have a greater right to the world than do stray dogs IMO. Bears encountered while hiking are a slightly different story than are stray dogs; their right to be there is higher than that of a loose dog, as the dog was intentionally let loose that way by voluntary action of a human who should have known better. A bear is wildlife, and belongs out in the wild. Now, if I felt physically threatened by a bear (not just at danger of losing my food bag to one), I would retain the right to use whatever force I had available to me to resist it, including shooting it to death if I had a firearm with me (unlikely on the AT, 100% certain in Alaska, still deciding that policy should I hike the CDT).

minnesotasmith
12-02-2004, 04:23
"I have had serious confrontations with dog owners who allowed their dog to take a space in a shelter, "the dog is tired too, and needs to sleep next to me"."

I'd say they forgot the inescapable conclusion to their reasoning, which is "...but, since dogs don't belong in shelters, I'll leave the shelter now.".

rocket04
12-02-2004, 06:43
Yes, adult humans *DO* have a greater right to the world than do stray dogs IMO.Why? And does that count for humans that aren't adult too? And who has a greater right, the human adult, the human teenager, or the human child?

Lone Wolf
12-02-2004, 06:52
The human adult. It says so in the Bible.

Ramble~On
12-02-2004, 07:10
Somebody mentioned bears a few posts back.......
Hmmmm....bears are wild animals that live in the woods and I hope to encounter them. Dogs aren't wild animals and I hope to not encounter them.
I have never had a bear threaten me or act hostile towards my walking down a trail, approaching a shelter, or being in the woods.
Perhaps if there were less dogs I'd have more encounters with bear and other animals that BELONG in the woods.

rocket04
12-02-2004, 07:44
Perhaps if there were less dogs I'd have more encounters with bear and other animals that BELONG in the woods.I was just joking with the comment about the bears. But I'm at a loss to explain how humans BELONG in the woods more than dogs. And if the answer is that we don't, yet we're there anyway, I fail to understand why dogs should be any less entitled.

highway
12-02-2004, 09:19
Dogs arent on the same plane....and they dont get to vote either, do they?

Most dogs I see hiking are not leashed and I prefer not having the abrupt dog confrontation, wondering, "is this one a biter or not"?

Since you want have him leashed, just leave him at home, please

MOWGLI
12-02-2004, 10:31
......................

rocket04
12-02-2004, 16:16
Dogs arent on the same plane....and they dont get to vote either, do they?Is this in response to my comment? If so, I don't see how it answers the question. Dogs aren't on the same plane? That's a bit vague and it's an affirmation that depends a great deal on context. As far as them not voting, I don't think that the comparison of a dog in a voting booth and a dog walking in the woods is a relevant one.

smokymtnsteve
12-02-2004, 16:47
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"I'm in favor of animal liberation. Why? Because I'm an animal."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Ridge
12-02-2004, 21:49
Dogs are considered a delicacy in a some areas of the world. Could the fine quisine of dog (maybe alacart) ever make it to the trail? Could it be prepared on a homemade alcohol stove? Would you get lots of hungry hikers stopping by for dog-kabobs? Would there be leftovers? Will someone have a dehydrator if there are? Dog-jerky anyone?

Ramble~On
12-03-2004, 06:16
HHHHmmmmmmm. Do humans BELONG in the woods?
Well, I don't know....Question should be do humans belong on the AT.
Yeah, A human created hiking trail probably would qualify for a place humans belong. In fact.....there are plenty of signs all along the AT that say
"Foot Travel Only"....seeing as how we humans have feet I guess that means us. Dogs on the other hand do not have feet...they have paws...
Therefore any dog on the trail is in violation of the foot travel only rule.
Thank you very much.

Skeemer
12-03-2004, 07:20
Dog have paws on the end of their feet :)

rocket04
12-03-2004, 07:27
there are plenty of signs all along the AT that say
"Foot Travel Only"....seeing as how we humans have feet I guess that means us. Dogs on the other hand do not have feet...they have paws...
Therefore any dog on the trail is in violation of the foot travel only rule.
Thank you very much.hehehe. Awesome answer! :D

Lilred
12-03-2004, 08:25
Dogs should never be in a shelter even if everybody there is in agreeance. Ticks, fleas and other nasties will be left behind. Not that I care cuz I don't sleep in the nasty boxes.


To get back to the question at hand, the person is talking about hiking in the winter with their dog. No ticks or fleas in the winter.

Lone Wolf
12-03-2004, 09:19
The first question in this thread said nothing about hiking in the winter with thier dog.

Lilred
12-03-2004, 09:29
The first question in this thread said nothing about hiking in the winter with thier dog.


I was talking about the most recent question by Mother Hen. :cool:

"My son is hiking the AT this winter. He plans to bring his dog. I would imagine that the trail is less traveled in the winter, therefore the dog would not be a nuisance. Am I wrong to think this??"

Lone Wolf
12-03-2004, 10:11
Dogs still don't belong in friggin shelters regardless of the season. :cool:

Blue Jay
12-03-2004, 10:30
Dogs still don't belong in friggin shelters regardless of the season. :cool:

Don't get mad, he says that about us humans too.

Lilred
12-03-2004, 12:29
Don't get mad, he says that about us humans too.


LOLOL

L. Wolf, I thought you didn't stay in shelters. Seems to me, that's where you would want the dogs then, not camping out with you........ :bse :jump :-?

Lone Wolf
12-03-2004, 12:36
blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah.... :bse :jump :-?
Oh and did I mention friggin dogs don't belong in friggin shelters? :cool:

Pencil Pusher
12-04-2004, 05:15
Hey Ridge, there's not an all-out ban on dogs in GSMNP:http://www.nps.gov/grsm/gsmsite/justforfun.html#pets

saimyoji
12-04-2004, 17:31
The first question in this thread said nothing about hiking in the winter with thier dog.
Actually, no, I wasn't thinking about any season in particular. I've not completed a thru-hike, only dreamed of it, but do hike quite a bit and enjoy reading the topics on this forum. It seemed innapropriate and disrespectful at the time the dog accosted me. Could've happened at any time of the year.

J.D.
12-05-2004, 00:17
:rolleyes: I am glad to see a nonconfrontational topic on whiteblaze. :D
...hehehe!

It's all about "responsibility". If you love your dog and the Trail and others, you are accountable for your actions, your dog's actions' and the actions of others. Anyone else here ever pick up the trash left by others...?

Personally, if I cannot take SkyDog (on a leash), I ain't going....

And, yes, there are a lot of jerks out there who SHOULD have their dog on a leash!

Ridge
12-06-2004, 03:00
Hey Ridge, there's not an all-out ban on dogs in GSMNP:http://www.nps.gov/grsm/gsmsite/justforfun.html#pets
I never used the term "all-out", besides, dogs are NOT allowed on the other 800 miles of trails or in the shelters. Should not be allowed on the entire AT.

hikerjohnd
05-23-2005, 19:34
I decided not to start a new thread since this one has so many good points. On my next trip my dog, Ruby, is going to be with me. We are going to be doing a lot of day hikes and a few overnight trips along the AT (going from GA to ME). Unfortunately Ruby has to come with me as my wife's schedule does not allow for her to take adequate care of Ruby while I plan to be gone. Having said that - I want to be a responsible dog owner and to that end, I have a tent that will accomodate both of us, so no shelters for us. Furthermore, I have a leash that keeps her within eyesight (I think 15 feet) and is retractable so I can keep her at my side if need be.

So - what else should I do/know to have her with me and not make enemies of fellow travelers on the trail. I want to be a responsible hiker/dog owner so please help!

(just FYI - Ruby is a terrier mix, about 35 lbs, stands 15" tall, does not bark (at least in the year and a half we have had her), and loves to go walking anywhere)

fiddlehead
05-23-2005, 22:40
I find that most dog owners are selfish people who do NOT train their dogs properly or use a leash most of the time. I just spent a weekend with a dog lover and was amazed at some things that went on: She took her 2 dogs into a restaurant and the younger dog attacked a little girl (causing her parents to leave) of course the dog was trying to play! Then the dog jumped up on our table 3 times trying to get food. And then a very old lady was being helped into the restaurant by 2 other people (who looked at her dogs with horror) and at that time, i said " let's get out of here now!"

After we left and we discussed this, she insisted that her dogs had been very well behaved as that's all they did in 45 minutes inside a restaurant. She said "weren't they cute?" Well i'm sorry but they weren't cute, weren't well behaved, and DEFINITELY should not have been in there in the first place.

I once dated a writer who was a dog lover and she wrote an article on hiking with dogs and if people would do everything she said (which was a lot as she had good advice but it would take her life to fulfill these things) if she did it all, her dogs would be (perhaps) not a nuisance. I have rarely seen a hiker with dogs, following the right ettiquette. I have been: bitten, had dogs lie down in the only spring around, chew holes in my pack, bark and wake up everyone in a shelter, piss on my gear, steal my gear, but the thing i remember most is a hiker who felt so bad for his dog, that he would feed the dog his Tuna mac and cheese and he would eat the dry dog food because he said the dog hiked hard that day and needed the energy.

I've had dogs in the past and i'm not a dog hater, and i don't like rules, but dog owners need to know that they are infringing on other peoples space! (Way too often) fh

ps. on the other hand, it is truly amazing how much some people love their dogs (and other peoples dogs too) While hitchiking with a hiker who had a dog, we never had to wait long for a ride as dog owners do anything to help a dog.

Rain Man
05-24-2005, 00:19
So - what else should I do/know to have her with me and not make enemies of fellow travelers on the trail. I want to be a responsible hiker/dog owner so please help!

Keep your dog out of all the poison ivy, thus she won't transfer it to humans when they pet her or she rubs against them or lays on clothing, sleeping bag, gear, etc., which they they use.

Also, keep her from drinking from water sources.

Enjoy your hike!

Rain:sunMan

.

minnesotasmith
05-24-2005, 21:36
"what else should I do/know to have her with me and not make enemies of fellow travelers on the trail."

That's actually pretty easy to answer. Basically, don't allow your decision to bring a dog onto the Trail affect other hikers against their will. Above all, please do this if you want to be a responsible dog-taking hiker:

1) Don't bring your dog near (like within 50') of any shelters (occupied or not) or any campgrounds in use (see a tent, etc.), even if you don't see anyone else there right then. (Another hiker may well come by later, and would likely resent seeing you fully moved in their with your dog.) That goes triple for hostels and any businesses near the Trail, hiker-friendly or not.

2) Don't EVER, for ANY rationalization, let your dog loose (off-leash). If you can't manage to keep your dog on leash 100% of the time there, don't take a dog there.

3) If your dog starts to bark, both in general but especially between 8:00 P.M and 10:00 A.M, IMMEDIATELY clout your dog hard enough to shut it up. Don't spend minutes ineffectively going "shushie-poo", not accomplishing squat to fix the pointless non-Trail noise that is YOUR fault and YOUR immediate responsibility to instantly stop.

4) Keep your dog away from other hikers who have not clearly expressed a desire to befriend it. That means YOU step off the Trail with your dog 2' from you, so that they are neither forced to stop hiking or to get close to your dog.

5) Keep your dog out of water sources. This is increasingly true for sources that are infrequent, small, or near campsites/shelters (occupied or not). If at all possible, please consider carrying your dog over water sources that cut the Trail.

That's mainly it for what you have to do to not be hated by other hikers due to your dog.

smokymtnsteve
05-24-2005, 21:48
I jist love singing with the dogs on a cold clear night under the Northern lights,,,,come on up this fall MS and I'll introduce U to GANGES the most lovable and smartest sled dog in the world,,,,not only does she respond to voice commands but she knows her left paw from her right paw and will turn the team in the proper direction on command.

Nean
05-24-2005, 22:38
I'm new on WB and haven't done the doggie. I just read a few of these....it doesn't matter. I've got 3 bit by a dog stories on the AT, didn't care for dogs on the trail; but no more than the guy who snores all night and sets his alarm for 5. Met some good dogs/people; some not so good. Met my dog Cooler and had some great walks with him. On the trail things tend to work themselves out rather quickly, on the net they rage on.

Pencil Pusher
05-24-2005, 23:53
...On the trail things tend to work themselves out rather quickly, on the net they rage on.
Nicely put.

SGT Rock
05-25-2005, 05:29
I've got 3 bit by a dog stories on the AT, didn't care for dogs on the trail; but no more than the guy who snores all night and sets his alarm for 5.
Yes, but a guy who snores and sets his alarm for 5 isn't as potentially dangerous as a bog that attacks.:p

hikerjohnd
05-25-2005, 09:02
...dangerous as a bog that attacks.:p
Beware the Bog! :D

Nean
05-25-2005, 10:05
I don't care for attack dogs, but now I know what to do in that situation- be the aggressor and keep eye contact

superman
05-25-2005, 11:44
I'm pro trained dog and responcible owners. I get more ticked off than the anti-dog folks when I come across dogs and owners who shouldn't be permitted out of their yard let alone on a hiking trail. I've been snapped at, threatened by and severely irked by untrained dogs and their ignorant owners. On the other hand many of the dog owners I've met shouldn't be allowed to own a dog or hike a trail.

minnesotasmith
05-25-2005, 13:06
Oh, I already like Huskies. I've owned two Siberians, and they were great dogs. How's the saying go about their physical ability: "one husky can keep three people fit".

Whenever I manage to relocate to AK, I intend to get another one. (I'll also probably take on a Great Pyrenee.)

For a REALLY interesting, unusual dog personality, try having one that was Siberian mixed with lots of wolf. I've had one of those, and that was was one neat pooch...

UberPest
05-28-2005, 16:11
FWIW, the Traildog email list (at yahoogroups.com) is currently discussing an education program for those who hike with dogs. Parts of this program would include proving your dog is trained well enough to be on a trail, not just going on your own word.

Also, my $.02--I hike with one of my dogs. Of the 13 dogs I've had in my 23 years, only one has been truly a good trail dog. My Lucy dog (now 13 years old) hiked, carried a pack, and slept outdoors, but she definitely didn't enjoy it the way Beau does (The last time I washed his pack and hung it to dry I found him trying to get the pack down from the rack and onto his back. That's kind of creepy weird. Also, he passed his Therapy Dog International exam, so if they approve my application he'd be certified to work in nursing homes--that type of training is the exception rather than the rule in my outdoor experience). Do I think every dog belongs on the trail? Absolutely NOT. There are dogs I've met on the trail that I would have loved to thump upside the head-- and in every case it was because the owner had poor judgement when it came to taking the dog on the trail. My Dad's piece of fatherly advice (about half of the time his stuff doesn't really make much sense) is "Your rights end where my rights begin." I think that's the #1 sentiment in this discussion. I love my dog, I want him on the trail, but the moment he infringes upon someone else's right to hike safely I have given up my right to hike simply because I am responsible for him and his actions.

Okay, that might have been more than $.02...

SGT Rock
05-31-2005, 16:38
My $0.02 to go with that: if you insist on bringing your dog, go to something like this! UberPest has a great website about hiking with dogs. My last AT hike I ran into quite a few hikers with dogs and it seems the word is getting around about dog etiquette because I didn't have a single problem this time. The closest thing to a "bad trail dog" the owner took very positive steps to keep everyone advised about the dog and she was doing a great job of trying to help the dog along. - I HAVE HOPE!

Pencil Pusher
05-31-2005, 19:47
FWIW, the Traildog email list (at yahoogroups.com) is currently discussing an education program for those who hike with dogs. Parts of this program would include proving your dog is trained well enough to be on a trail, not just going on your own word.

So by 'proving' the dog is trained well enough, is the aim of the group to make this education program law for those wishing to hike with their pets?

UberPest
05-31-2005, 22:02
That I couldn't tell you, Pencil Pusher. I'm not real big into setting things in legal stone, though. My thought is that it would be more along the lines of the AKC's Canine Good Citizen program. The CGC shows the dog can react well in a normal public setting. It's not a legal requirement for bringing your dog into any public setting, but it is a good role model--a basic level of good behavior all dogs should be able to achieve. If such a program were available to hiking dogs, it would be nice PR for both sides of the fence.

Sgt. Rock thanks for the kind words. I spent the weekend moving the site into its new digs (new server)-- the rent is cheaper and there's more room to sprawl about in. The utilities are a lot better, too. :)

(edited to fix code tags)

Phreak
08-08-2005, 16:59
I have a 16 month old German Shepherd/Lab mix and she is a dream off a leash when we backpack together. She stays directly behind me at all times, will step to the side of the trail and sit if I stop to let other hikers pass. She doesn't chase game, bark, approach people or even leave my side unless she is given permission to by me. I've spent a lot of hours training her so we can enjoy the outdoors together and she not be a threat or nuisance to other hikers. I think if more dog owners would take a little more time and properly train their animals, this discussion wouldn't be necessary. I've only had one bad incident with a dog in all of my backpacking experiences, the rest of the dogs have been very friendly and calm. Just my $0.02 worth. =-)

SGT Rock
08-08-2005, 17:07
That would be nice.

Then you run into the guy I met this weekend with three dogs that were charging me and my boys while the owner was out of site. I almost brained one with the machete when he charged my 7 year old who was terrified of the dogs. BTW he is a dog lover too.

saimyoji
09-02-2005, 15:53
Just got home from hiking Mt. Tammany at DWG. Met two dogs on the trail, two ends of the spectrum, though not what you'd expect.

At the top someone had mentioned seeing a baby bear on the way up, so I of course, on the way down was on the alert, for baby and mommy. I approached a turn in the trail and a fury black four legged animal bounded up the trail. As I reached for my knife I noticed the red bandana it wore: a black lab. It stopped and watched me. As I approached (about 30' away) its owner appeared, saw me and called it back. He commanded it to sit, and held its collar as I walked past. We exchanged pleasantries: he was a european gent on vacation here.

About 10 min. later around where the trail intersects Duncannon Creek another dog appeared: leashed, though on a very long leash. The dog was allowed to approach me even though I stopped and showed body language that I didn't like it. The owner lauded me and said "He just wants to be petted, he's friendly." To which I grunted and moved on.

Dog owners: if you've read this thread, I think you get the idea.

LIhikers
09-13-2005, 13:51
My wife and I often hike with our 80 pound shephard so am certainly on the side of allowing dogs on the trail. BUT I firmly believe that it is the responsability of the dog's owner to MAKE SURE that their animal doesn not infringe on someone else's hike. Our dog is trained to voice commands but still have him on lead a 100% of the time. The only time he comes off lead is when we're in our tent. We specificlly bought a 3 person tent so that we could stay out of the shelters and still have our dog inside with us. Noone should have to put up with a strange dog jumping up on them like saimyoji did.

Here's another twist to the dog thing. Some people, no matter how you tell them or how far you try to stay away from them, will come over wanting to pet our dog. Some must think I'm an antisocial SOB when I step right in front of them so they can't pet our dog or raise my voice to tell them AGAIN to please leave our dog alone. You see, this problem goes both ways. The problem isn't so much with the dogs, it's with some people, no matter which side of the issue their on.

dougmeredith
09-13-2005, 14:12
Here's another twist to the dog thing. Some people, no matter how you tell them or how far you try to stay away from them, will come over wanting to pet our dog. Some must think I'm an antisocial SOB when I step right in front of them so they can't pet our dog or raise my voice to tell them AGAIN to please leave our dog alone.
I'm curious, why don't you want them to pat your dog?

Doug

JLB
09-13-2005, 16:54
HHHHmmmmmmm. Do humans BELONG in the woods?
Well, I don't know....Question should be do humans belong on the AT.
Yeah, A human created hiking trail probably would qualify for a place humans belong. In fact.....there are plenty of signs all along the AT that say
"Foot Travel Only"....seeing as how we humans have feet I guess that means us. Dogs on the other hand do not have feet...they have paws...
Therefore any dog on the trail is in violation of the foot travel only rule.
Thank you very much.

Better kill every animal in the woods with paws, as they might break the rules and step on the trail.

frieden
09-14-2005, 11:28
Total voice and hand signal control isn't rare. You see it all the time with working dogs: police dogs, most SAR dogs, and it is essential for Schutzhund. That is our goal, because it is safer for the dog, easier on the handler, and allows the dog to do his job properly.

Ed is not there yet, so we always use a leash. He's used to walking on the trail (whether in the mountains or on the sidewalk) on a leash, and we have established a suitable pace for both of us. I don't have a fenced yard, so we play on the long line. When we go to the dog park (off leash), he doesn't run wild or play; he just walks around sniffing everything. It's very frustrating for me, because it's what I think he wants. If other dogs are there, he'll run around and play with them, though. I take him jogging, so he does get exercise.

Unless he's actively working search and rescue that requires an off leash run, I don't think we'll ever hike without one. He's used to it, and we've worked out a system that works for both of us. Besides, it will give peace of mind to other people. If a dog gets to have a good experience while on a leash (going out), and it's used all the time, he'll look at it as just part of his gear.

frieden
09-14-2005, 11:35
This isn't an issue of "dog etiquette"; it's an issue of "human etiquette". Irresponsible people are just that, regardless of what they possess - dog, gun, etc. They are a danger and annoyance to everyone around them. If humans can't be trained to behave themselves and be responsible, they should be banned from the animals' woods!!!!




I never used the term "all-out", besides, dogs are NOT allowed on the other 800 miles of trails or in the shelters. Should not be allowed on the entire AT.

LIhikers
09-15-2005, 16:08
Doug,We discourage people from petting our dog just because it's easier for me and my wife that way. We know what he responds to but others don't.

MOWGLI
09-15-2005, 16:40
Doug,We discourage people from petting our dog just because it's easier for me and my wife that way. We know what he responds to but others don't.

Is that a fancy way of saying that he might bite? :confused:

smokymtnsteve
09-15-2005, 18:20
Is that a fancy way of saying that he might bite? :confused:

probably not...some folks just don't like everybody coming up and bothering thier dog,,, folks esp don't like other folks feeding thier animal , U should always ask before touching or feeding someone's dog...

LIhikers
09-16-2005, 13:58
Is that a fancy way of saying that he might bite? :confused:


No, he gets excited and wants to play. Imagine 80 pounds tugging hard, in all directions, on the end of a leash. Actually if we tell him to he'll just sit or stay when people pet him but you can tell that's not what he wants to do. And most people who'll approach him after being asked/told not to want more than to just pet him, they want to play with him. So the less people interact with him the easier it is on us.

dougmeredith
09-18-2005, 10:31
people who'll approach him after being asked/told not to want more than to just pet him
I'm sorry in advance for this. I tried to hold it back, I really did.

Petting is what teenagers do in the back seat of a car. You "pat" a dog. Really. Look it up, I did to be sure.

Doug

frieden
09-18-2005, 11:00
Hehehehe. :D That depends on how much you love your dog!

Seriously, though, "pet" my not be the proper term, but it is the socially accepted term - something like "ain't", which became so popular, it is now in the dictionary. Every book and magazine I've ever read refers to the action as "petting". I have no idea how it started, but there it is. According to what experts say we spend on our dogs per year, I guess we really love our dogs!

Blue Jay
09-18-2005, 17:59
This isn't an issue of "dog etiquette"; it's an issue of "human etiquette". Irresponsible people are just that, regardless of what they possess - dog, gun, etc. They are a danger and annoyance to everyone around them. If humans can't be trained to behave themselves and be responsible, they should be banned from the animals' woods!!!!

I believe we may have a dog person that "gets it". When you come around a corner and see a dog, you have to treat it like a human with a gun. You may get hurt, you may not, but you are clearly in possible danger. Often you can assess the level of danger, for example a fat beagle that is wagging its tail is unlikely to inflict much pain. Regardless of what the possible irresponsible person has, gun or dog, you may be in danger. It's very hard to tell who is responsible and who is not in a few seconds, and that is exactly what you have. Gun or dog, many people do not enjoy being threatened.

general
12-04-2005, 00:19
mr. bud only bites who i tell him to, and he is an excellent judge of character. chances are, if he dosen't like someone, i don't either. someone tried to whack him with a leki pole for breathing once, and i told them if "if you smack him, then it's a personal thing between you and the dog. i'm out of it, and your gonna loose". i have to admit, if someone took a swing at me with a stick for no reason i'd be pretty pissed too.

Nean
12-04-2005, 08:22
One of the reasons I love living in the woods is so my dogs can run without getting run over. They never run off but they do greet a lot of hikers. They are all young but starting to mellow and should be a little less enthusiastic next year. I apologize if they bother some folks. Lots of folks just love them, and except for some bread and summer sausage...:) , there has never been a problem. Its a huge issue on the web, but here on the trail it's been a non issue.
I've been bitten three x by dogs on my travels, probably would of been bit a couple of more times if I didn't learn what to do. Never turn your back on a barking dog! Once out west on a roadwalk into town a pack of 6-7 dogs started charging me. Scared to death, I stared running towards them, arm flailin :bse and screaming like I was, well, scared to death. Those dogs stopped in their tracks, eyes got big and scattered. Works everytime, even on bears.

gsingjane
12-04-2005, 18:56
One point about dogs on the trail I haven't seen mentioned on this thread (I don't think) is how frightening it can be to a little person to have a dog thrash up out of the underbrush at them. Especially if it is getting dark, or if the dog crept up very quietly and pounced, it can make a child almost hysterical. This has happened to us very many times on the trail - there must be some dog instinct or something that encourages unleashed dogs to pounce, especially on critters that are close to its own size. If you can picture something say 5 foot 8 inches and 175 pounds suddenly darting out of the shrubbery at you, you can get a small picture of what my kids have gone through with dogs on the trail (and they like dogs). I would also add (as have the others above) that approximately 5% of the dogs we see are leashed, if that many, so either it it just too tempting for people to let them run, or they let them off for safety or other reasons.

Jane in CT

saimyoji
12-04-2005, 19:03
Its frightening for big people too! Especially the few seconds between when you hear the animal and then see that its not a bear, mountain lion, or hillbilly. :eek:

smokymtnsteve
12-04-2005, 19:27
Its frightening for big people too! Especially the few seconds between when you hear the animal and then see that its not a bear, mountain lion, or hillbilly. :eek:

or a hillbilly???..I resemble that remark

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=8936&c=663

SGT Rock
12-04-2005, 19:29
The discription I think best fits steve is Hillbilly Hippy

saimyoji
12-04-2005, 19:35
I would be seriously afraid if I saw you come charging out of the bushes, on all fours, coming straight at me. :eek:

smokymtnsteve
12-04-2005, 20:56
be afraid ,,,very afraid...:D

would U B even more afraid..if I was singing (howling) liek a dog..

I;m rather proficent at singing liek a dog as I sing with 63 dogs ona regular basis...

ahhhWOOOOoooooo,,,,,

Ramble~On
12-05-2005, 10:38
One of the reasons I love living in the woods is so my dogs can run without getting run over. They never run off but they do greet a lot of hikers. They are all young but starting to mellow and should be a little less enthusiastic next year. I apologize if they bother some folks. Lots of folks just love them, and except for some bread and summer sausage...:) , there has never been a problem. Its a huge issue on the web, but here on the trail it's been a non issue.
I've been bitten three x by dogs on my travels, probably would of been bit a couple of more times if I didn't learn what to do. Never turn your back on a barking dog! Once out west on a roadwalk into town a pack of 6-7 dogs started charging me. Scared to death, I stared running towards them, arm flailin :bse and screaming like I was, well, scared to death. Those dogs stopped in their tracks, eyes got big and scattered. Works everytime, even on bears.

:datz I qouted your entire post for a reason :datz :datz :datz
You let your dogs run......You apologize if they bother some people:datz
It's a huge issue on the web...but a non issue on the trail !! :datz :datz :datz Do you use the shelters ? are your dogs with you at those shelters ? are they leashed ?
Do you realize that "some" people do not want to be "greeted" by your dogs.

Rain Man
12-05-2005, 10:56
:datz I qouted your entire post for a reason :datz :datz :datz
You let your dogs run......You apologize if they bother some people:datz
It's a huge issue on the web...but a non issue on the trail !! :datz :datz :datz

SpiritWind, I had to bite my tongue and not even post a reply to Nean's post. I'm glad you did. What blind, self-centered idiocy!

His dogs run loose and they "greet" people. Other dogs run loose towards him, and they are a "pack." What's the difference? There is none that I can see, except for the "beauty" in the eye of the beholder, apparently.

Rain:sunMan

.

SGT Rock
12-05-2005, 11:25
Ditto.....

Nean
12-05-2005, 11:59
Sorry, I have 13 acres along the trail and the trail crosses my driveway, 70 yards from the house (on private land). As far as a pack and my pups, I guess you'd of had to been there. I've never had a problem here and don't know why I would. Yes Yes I'm a self centered Idiot. So easy to spew from where we sit, but like I said, its different here in the real world. Please stop by and we can chat in person- My Boys will let me know you're here:)
I knew if I blew on this fire long enough I'd get some flame;)

rickb
12-05-2005, 12:01
70 yards from the house

What's in the fridge and is your door locked?

Nean
12-05-2005, 12:45
I'm well stocked Rick and now that the murderer has been caught the door is open. The sherriff told us our dogs most likely kept him out of our house and us from being #s 5 and 6.

smokymtnsteve
12-05-2005, 18:19
running dogs in the woods is an ole mtn tradition,,,

when I wuz livin in Cherokee NC right next to the park ..I used to "catch" bear dogs all the time...folks out running bear with dogs...some of the finest hounds in the world are breed in the southern Appalchians,

growing up in them hills we used to run coon dogs all the time.

so dogs in the mtns is an ole timey time honored thang.


been folks running dogs in the mtns long before a AT was ever even thought of.

general
12-07-2005, 15:37
i've been hikin' with a 1/2 pit bull 1/2 red bone hound for 8 years. i'll be the first on to tell you he's one mean son of a bitch. that being said, he is completely controllable on or off leash, and the only time he came remotely close to biting someone is when a stranger picked up my backpack. he saved my ass from a couple of drunk young adults that wanted to start some s***. i've had plenty of people that would like to call themselves my friends that have, and would run in the face of adversity. mr. bud has never let me down and has always been willing to push on under any circumstances. that's much, much more than i could ever expect from many self righteous dog nazis that i've met in the woods. all kinds of animals live in the woods. what makes dog's so different? is it domesticaton? hell my dog spends more time in the woods than he does at home. he doesn't belong to me. he's his own thing. the definition of domestic: living in or about the habitations of man; kept for the use of man; tame; not wild. does that mean that the deer that i see every day in my yard are domesticated? im pretty sure they are still wild because when the wild dog gets after them they all run like hell. mr. bud lives harmoniously in nature as well as i. it just so happens that we live in the same place at the same time. why deny him the right to spend his time, naturally, in the woods, enjoying what he loves? you want your time to enjoy what you want to do. why are you more important in the hierarchy of life than mr. bud? he never sold his soul to better himself. he never stepped on the backs of others to climb the coorporate ladder. he never sent jobs to china in the name of the american dollar. he's never done anything but be a damn good dog and hike a s*** load of miles. take a long look inside and think about all of the bad things you've done to others, and then ask yourself, do you really want to banish all of those "animals"? are you really that much better?

Rain Man
12-07-2005, 17:20
....take a long look inside and think about all of the bad things you've done to others, and then ask yourself, do you really want to banish all of those "animals"? are you really that much better?

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and quit setting up straw men to knock down. That's just a juvenile debate trick. Nobody said anything about banishing dogs, only keeping them under control and out of trouble. Let's stick to the truth, please. You keep this dangerous arrogance up and some might want to change their minds about taking guns on the trail for self-defense.
:eek:
Rain Man

.

general
12-07-2005, 17:29
As of now I am declaring the AT is off limits for all dogs, leashed or not.
Exceptions: 1) sanctioned, licensed, dogs for people with impairments or disabilities. 2) If freeze dried, only three packages of dog allowed per month
3) Only 1 can of dog per month,(please don't leave can in fire pit). People who insist on hiking with dogs, and are caught, will be made to sleep in a stuffed shelter on a rainy night with strange, stinking, wet, noisy, muddy dogs.
When will people learn to leave their animals at home? My dog stays at home, why can't yours? Carry a gun if you are scared. Bring a human friend if you need company. Theres a reason why the National Parks don't allow them on the trails, can you guess why?

rain man,

wow, only had to go through a couple to find this one. off limits sounds synonomous with banishment to me. didn't set any one up, and was never on any debate team. maybe you should take a long hard look at the forum before you crucify me.

general
12-07-2005, 17:38
You need to take a long hard look at yourself and quit setting up straw men to knock down. That's just a juvenile debate trick. Nobody said anything about banishing dogs, only keeping them under control and out of trouble. Let's stick to the truth, please. You keep this dangerous arrogance up and some might want to change their minds about taking guns on the trail for self-defense.
:eek:
Rain Man

.

who said anything about self defense on the trail? the dog saved me, not me saving me! that would be the dog defending me out of love for me. or were you saying that you would like to shoot mr. bud?

SGT Rock
12-07-2005, 18:24
Actually we are not dog NAZIs, what a funny idea for a term. Actually the NAZIs used dogs, so you would make the people that bring dogs more likely to attack others the nazis, not the people that are like me - dog lovers tired of seeing the poor behavior of dogs being excused by their owners.

And what is the difference between a wild animal and a domesticated dog? Gee, try thinking about it. There is a lot of difference. If you need someone to point out the difference in attitude and actions of a deer, squirl, bear, moose, or whatever to a dog in your camp, then you are not paying attention.

Anyway, again, a dog owner attacks the people tired of being molested by others dogs as the people that don't get it.

saimyoji
12-07-2005, 18:30
Met a guy at the supermarket today who had a working dog with him. He wasn't blind, said the dog could sense when his body chemistry started to get out of whack and would signal him to take meds. I didn't probe for details, but have heard of several types of this. Very well behaved dog. With proper training, should do well on the AT. :cool:

smokymtnsteve
12-07-2005, 18:38
B better off and safer for everybody if we banned drunks off the trail..

that ole demon alkyhol!

SGT Rock
12-07-2005, 18:41
Yep, no drunks. No dogs, no stoners ;)

Burn
12-07-2005, 19:03
hey sgt..love ya, love yer attitude, love yer site....but yer fighting for everyone....some folks drink and love dogs.....


ps. my nephew heads back probably with yer crew......god bless.....in most places dawgs are allowed....stay safe

general
12-07-2005, 19:04
Actually we are not dog NAZIs, what a funny idea for a term. Actually the NAZIs used dogs, so you would make the people that bring dogs more likely to attack others the nazis, not the people that are like me - dog lovers tired of seeing the poor behavior of dogs being excused by their owners.

And what is the difference between a wild animal and a domesticated dog? Gee, try thinking about it. There is a lot of difference. If you need someone to point out the difference in attitude and actions of a deer, squirl, bear, moose, or whatever to a dog in your camp, then you are not paying attention.

Anyway, again, a dog owner attacks the people tired of being molested by others dogs as the people that don't get it.

i fell victim to a session of angry venting. i know what's wild and what ain't. i certianly wouldn't try to coax a bear into my house to watch some football with me. in a round about ill sort of way, i was trying to say it ain't the dogs fault. i agree some dogs train easier than others. i'm lucky. mr. bud will do what ever i or you ask him to do. i'm just saying if the dog acts right let him be, and if he doesn't, attack the owner with your stick instead.

smokymtnsteve
12-07-2005, 19:04
Yep, no drunks. No dogs, no stoners ;)


WHAT????:eek:

had two dogs (Dawson and Moose) get to fighting last night,,,

blood everywhere,,,got a couple of pics..I'll post..

(mite make good proper-ganda for U) :D

SGT Rock
12-07-2005, 20:24
hey sgt..love ya, love yer attitude, love yer site....but yer fighting for everyone....some folks drink and love dogs.....


ps. my nephew heads back probably with yer crew......god bless.....in most places dawgs are allowed....stay safe
Actually I drink and have dogs.

Just messing with old friend Steve and his ultralight muscle relaxant.

justusryans
12-07-2005, 20:28
Actually I drink and have dogs.

Just messing with old friend Steve and his ultralight muscle relaxant.

thats just wrong on so many levels!!:eek: :D

Rain Man
12-08-2005, 17:56
wow, only had to go through a couple to find this one. off limits sounds synonomous with banishment to me. didn't set any one up, and was never on any debate team. maybe you should take a long hard look at the forum before you crucify me.

I would have thought you'd stop digging that hole you've got yourself into.

Now you're quoting a sarcastic joke post to justify your claims that people want to ban dogs? That's just more juvenile drivel.

Instead of continuing to show your butt, how 'bout a simple, sincere apology for all the bombastic mud-slinging you're doing at people who simply don't like dogs running amuck and out of control?

Rain Man

.

general
12-08-2005, 20:08
i fell victim to a session of angry venting. i know what's wild and what ain't. i certianly wouldn't try to coax a bear into my house to watch some football with me. in a round about ill sort of way, i was trying to say it ain't the dogs fault. i agree some dogs train easier than others. i'm lucky. mr. bud will do what ever i or you ask him to do. i'm just saying if the dog acts right let him be, and if he doesn't, attack the owner with your stick instead.

that's as close to an im sorry as i can muster

there were more posts than that but, no im not going to dig them up.

Nean
12-09-2005, 02:29
Hey Rainman, you ever sling that mean 'ol mud? Maybe hate is blind too.;)

Rain Man
12-09-2005, 11:15
Hey Rainman, you ever sling that mean 'ol mud? Maybe hate is blind too.;)

Hate is a mighty strong word, Nean. I don't think it's appropriate in our little debate, ... unless it's just another debate trick?

He smacked me (and others) with his comments. I smacked him right back. Where's the hate in that? Just guys being guys. He even posted twice something he considers an apology. I don't, but I give him credit for doing so, anyway. Things are square enough fer this country boy. We both had our say and there's no blood spilt. Now, let's go hiking!

BTW, just so you don't sling mud on the wrong WhiteBlazer, there is a Rainman. It's not me, though. I'm Rain Man. I know it's confusing, but nothing I can do about that.

Have a good'un!

Rain:sunMan

.

Nean
12-09-2005, 12:33
Thank you for clearing that up RM. Life IS good! Have a great day.

smokymtnsteve
12-09-2005, 18:33
No love is ever lost ..after bad blood is spilt;)

Uncle Silly
12-12-2005, 03:27
Just remember that "under control" is defined on public hiking trails as meaning his dog is hooked to a leash that is either he is holding, or is tied to a fixed object like a tree 100.000% (not 99.999%) of the time. Also, IMO it means that the dog never once comes into shelters for one second, near other hikers while they are cooking (or their campsites), while hiking your son steps off the Trail (pulling the dog after him) so hikers coming the other way aren't forced to interact with his dog without initiating the interaction, etc. Anything less than this standard of behavior would mean that your son should not bring a dog on the Trail.


I'm just glad Minnesotasmith isn't actually involved in writing policy. I'm not sure what exactly under control means when posted in the land-use regulations (it's likely to mean different things depending on where and by whom it's posted), but I'm absolutely positive this quote ain't the right definition.

For those of you who don't like my dog at the shelter, be sure to point that out to my face next time we meet. (I'll be polite if you will.) If anyone takes a stick to my dog, better make sure it's in self-defense and I see the infraction ... otherwise I'll take a bigger stick to you. If you don't like my dog on the trail, work out the legislation to make it illegal, or ****. Public property is my property as well as yours ... we can work out our differences civilly, or non-civilly. Which would you prefer?

stalo man
12-12-2005, 05:09
As of now I am declaring the AT is off limits for all dogs, leashed or not.
Exceptions: 1) sanctioned, licensed, dogs for people with impairments or disabilities. 2) If freeze dried, only three packages of dog allowed per month
3) Only 1 can of dog per month,(please don't leave can in fire pit). People who insist on hiking with dogs, and are caught, will be made to sleep in a stuffed shelter on a rainy night with strange, stinking, wet, noisy, muddy dogs.
When will people learn to leave their animals at home? My dog stays at home, why can't yours? Carry a gun if you are scared. Bring a human friend if you need company. Theres a reason why the National Parks don't allow them on the trails, can you guess why?

i wonder why its such a discusion about dogs on the trail. i don´t mind if they are kept on a leash.
in sweden and germany u see quite a lot of people hiking with their dogs, and there are no problems, not even in national parks....