View Full Version : Bear bags and such.
Well I was camping a few weekends ago off of the AT near three forks at a waterfall (who's name I can't remember right now). Anyways I got into camp and started setting up and there was family of hikers there. After I had everything set up I started cooking and one of the other hikers was appalled that I was cooking near where I (we) were camping. I didn't think it was that big of a deal because I had seen many thru hikers cook in shelters before. He then went on to tell me to hang my food far from camp and not to wash my dishes in the creek we were next to. I then thought of how far I had seen bear cables from shelters, but I respected his wishes and hung my food 150 yards from camp. I saw his bear bag the next morning hiking out, and it must have been 3/4 of a mile away.
So are these practical methods or was the guy a little paranoid?
Also where would you cook if it was raining? I know where I would be. Under my tarp, not out in the rain getting cold.
waywardfool
06-30-2010, 00:12
It would be interesting to know where he was from, where he was used to camping...sounds like western bear precautions to me. 3/4 mile is ridiculous for the Appalachains. Alaska...maybe I'd sleep better.
Sometimes I hang, sometimes I don't. Depends on the area, reported activity, etc. Usually whatever suitable tree is within 50-100' or so. I'll cook 20' from the tent...but not right next to it and certainly not in the vestibule. More from concern over dropped tidbits and mice, coons, & other critters than bears.
As far as washing dishes in the creek...a definite no-no. Take wash water well away from surface water.
Mountain Wildman
06-30-2010, 00:16
In the rain I would be under my tarp as well and it would most certainly be at my campsite and probably not too far from my tent. I would be careful to pickup any food I drop and either burn it up in my campfire or put it in my trash bag. My food bag, trash bag and anything else with a smell to it would be hung, About 100 feet from my site.
Sounds like he might have been a little paranoid but if he was with his family, and if he had children with him, I don't blame him.
I don't wash in a stream either, I use a Sea to Summit Kitchen sink (weighs 4 oz.) and when I am done I would again either dump it in the fire or Broadcast the soapy water into the woods.
So just curious, why no washing in water sources?
Ohh yea do you also hang utensils, and cookware. I have just washed up dishes before bed and then put it back in the pack.
Don't wash in water sources because... well, they're water sources, and you don't want to contaminate them.
I hang my cookware and utensils with my food. Anything that might have a food scent on it.
Mountain Wildman
06-30-2010, 00:31
My cookware, utensils and stoves are in one stuff sack and would be hung as well.
Better safe than sorry!!
Humm, interesting. Will definitely hang cookware and stop washing directly in water sources.
Last question (I think)
How about if you mix powered drinks (non-sugar) in a gatorade bottle?
waywardfool
06-30-2010, 01:10
How about if you mix powered drinks (non-sugar) in a gatorade bottle?
Still smells...and you'll need to bag it, if/when you are in locations that bear bagging is prudent.
Same for any smellables...soap, toothpaste, etc. Don't forget the gumwrappers in your pants pockets, etc that need to go in your trash bag. Also clothes that you spill food on, until washed. Now, in reality, in the Applalachians, with eastern black bears, I don't worry as much about such things, just the food and trash.
Mountain Wildman
06-30-2010, 01:15
Humm, interesting. Will definitely hang cookware and stop washing directly in water sources.
Last question (I think)
How about if you mix powered drinks (non-sugar) in a gatorade bottle?
I usually take a water bottle in my tent with me in case I get dry during the night. One with Flavoring, I am using the Nuun Berry Tablets will get hung or cleaned with Dr. Bronners if it's empty.
I don't know about Black Bears but Grizzlies will definitely be attracted to sweet smells, (Like Honey for Example), I would suspect Blacks would as well. A Grizzly can smell what he considers to be appetizing edibles from ten miles away, Depending on wind direction of course.
Some people don't hang their food and even keep it in their tent with them and have had no incidents, I will hang anything I am not sure of and sleep soundly. I use Dr. Bronners Peppermint soap to clean everything including me, Statistically speaking, Bears have never exhibited a fondness for mint smells or flavors, When observed in the wild, they ate various plants but always passed right over the mint varieties, So I've read.
I use Dr. Bronners Peppermint soap to clean everything including me, Statistically speaking, Bears have never exhibited a fondness for mint smells or flavors, When observed in the wild, they ate various plants but always passed right over the mint varieties, So I've read.
Very interesting. Thanks for the tip about mint.
Lone Wolf
06-30-2010, 07:26
Well I was camping a few weekends ago off of the AT near three forks at a waterfall (who's name I can't remember right now). Anyways I got into camp and started setting up and there was family of hikers there. After I had everything set up I started cooking and one of the other hikers was appalled that I was cooking near where I (we) were camping. I didn't think it was that big of a deal because I had seen many thru hikers cook in shelters before. He then went on to tell me to hang my food far from camp and not to wash my dishes in the creek we were next to. I then thought of how far I had seen bear cables from shelters, but I respected his wishes and hung my food 150 yards from camp. I saw his bear bag the next morning hiking out, and it must have been 3/4 of a mile away.
So are these practical methods or was the guy a little paranoid?
Also where would you cook if it was raining? I know where I would be. Under my tarp, not out in the rain getting cold.
the guy was a lot paranoid. i cook in my tent vestibule when it's raining
daddytwosticks
06-30-2010, 07:31
Name of waterfall..."Long Creek Falls"? Yes, he sounds a little too paranoid. :)
Sierra Echo
06-30-2010, 07:35
I use Dr. Bronners Peppermint soap to clean everything including me
Bronners soap has came up twice now in two days. That must be
some good stuff!
Dobie Swift
06-30-2010, 09:13
Bronners soap has came up twice now in two days. That must be
some good stuff!
The entertainment value of the label alone is worth the price of the soap. Dr. Bronner was SERIOULSLY wacked out on Scooby Snacks.
http://www.drbronner.com/pdf/drbronner_32oz_Pep.pdf
the guy was a lot paranoid. i cook in my tent vestibule when it's raining
Me too... I prep my breakfast in the vestibule too so when I wake up I can roll over while I'm still in my bag and cook it and eat without getting out of my bag.
I sleep with my food and don't treat water - I guess I'm just asking for it, eh?
On the plus side, I do pick up trash when I see it. :)
double j
06-30-2010, 09:44
lol he better not go to the smokys then. At tri corner shelter i had to shovel horse feed from the shelter porch lol
Keep a real Knife handy and If the Bear has no cubs, Barbecue Potluck.
Seriously though, You have to Protect the Bears from themselves. If they learn that you have easy food laying around then they become a problem and Ranger has to relocate or eradicate, and it is the hikers fault.
Mountain Wildman
06-30-2010, 18:04
Very interesting. Thanks for the tip about mint.
You are welcome.
I probably read it in backpacker or saw it on tv, I watch all the outdoor type shows on Discovery, TLC, NGC etc...
Appalachian Tater
06-30-2010, 19:54
If there are bear cables or boxes I use them because I'm not a complete fool but otherwise I sleep with my food bag in my tent so I can eat in the middle of the night. Don't kid yourself about the odors--you and your clothes smell like food to wild animals just because you cooked and ate no matter where your food bag is or where you cooked.
I pee around my tent to (maybe) discourage mice. It doesn't hurt to let other animals know you are there so at least your presence isn't a surprise.
Big Dawg
06-30-2010, 20:37
. He then went on to tell me to hang my food far from camp and not to wash my dishes in the creek we were next to.
I would've told him to kiss my back end,,,,,,,,,,
oh, & food bag hung 3/4 mile from camp,,,, what a joke.
Bear Cables
07-01-2010, 00:11
the guy was a lot paranoid. i cook in my tent vestibule when it's raining
Yeah...but you sleep with your food too. One day that's going to come back and "bite you" in the butt. I still belive it's irresponsible to encourage others to behave carelessly.
Personally, I hang my food and smellables, never cook next to my tent and have never had a bear in camp. Not willing to take the chance. When i do see a bear I want to see it in it's space not mine.
Lone Wolf
07-01-2010, 00:12
Yeah...but you sleep with your food too. One day that's going to come back and "bite you" in the butt. I still belive it's irresponsible to encourage others to behave carelessly.
whatever.........:rolleyes:
TIDE-HSV
07-01-2010, 00:14
Yeah...but you sleep with your food too. One day that's going to come back and "bite you" in the butt. I still belive it's irresponsible to encourage others to behave carelessly.
Personally, I hang my food and smellables, never cook next to my tent and have never had a bear in camp. Not willing to take the chance. When i do see a bear I want to see it in it's space not mine.
I've seen them up close and personal, all the way from the Rockies to the Appalachians. Whatever I can do to avoid it in the future, I will...
Bear Cables
07-01-2010, 00:14
whatever.........:rolleyes:
yeah...well....just sayin....;)
Lone Wolf
07-01-2010, 00:18
yeah...well....just sayin....;)
yeah....well....i'll take my chances. i'm thinkin' i got a heck of a lot more experience tenting and storing food than you. just sayin'....
I use the triangle method most times. First off, I try to find out everything I can about the current state of affairs of the area I am going to in relation to bears. I am only dealing with the east, so we are talking only BB. Mr Griz is a whole other set of rules.
The by the book triangle method is 200 foot between each point and the 3 points being cooking, washing and cleaning and the bear bag. Your sleeping 100 foot away from any part of the triangle. The "proven" purpose of all this is that the bear will bounce around in the triangle if he comes in.
Now this is all well and good but MOST times you dont have all this room to work with, or care to work with. I just try to work with the "principle" of it. Key is to keep the sleeping area away from the other three.
Then you have the smellables you have to remember to put up...
Then you also have the bears who have a routine pattern through the campsite and are gonna come walking by your tent anyway.
THEN..even if all this is done, you still get the hair standing vist due to a fellow site-mate having food in the sleeping area.
So in the end you do what you can and learn by heart what to do if there is an encounter.
couscous
07-01-2010, 07:56
The by the book triangle method is 200 foot between each point and the 3 points being cooking, washing and cleaning and the bear bag. Your sleeping 100 foot away from any part of the triangle.
True, but in practice most of the cooking, washing and cleaning is done on the front edge of the shelters or on a picnic table right outside the shelter. The easiest way to sleep 100' away from the cooking/cleaning would probably be to stop and cook supper on the trail, then continue on to where you plan to spend the night.
True, but in practice most of the cooking, washing and cleaning is done on the front edge of the shelters or on a picnic table right outside the shelter. The easiest way to sleep 100' away from the cooking/cleaning would probably be to stop and cook supper on the trail, then continue on to where you plan to spend the night.
Yes, I agree on the AT and really any other trail where you, at times,have many choices of where you want to park it for the night. Stopping to eat and then going, then moving on is the best bet.
Bear Cables
07-01-2010, 17:19
yeah....well....i'll take my chances. i'm thinkin' i got a heck of a lot more experience tenting and storing food than you. just sayin'....
so you say....and I get the feeling your rollin your eyes as well. You go ahead and do it your way but I still contend that it is irresponsible to advise others to follow your method when it goes against all wilderness safe practices. Yeah...even if you aren't "advising" but just stating what you do, many newcomers to backpacking may take that as a suggestion. I can imagine it...hiker sleeps with food....wakes up with bear tearing at tent....bear gets food....hiker scared, no food, damaged shelter....trip over.
Pedaling Fool
07-01-2010, 18:27
Fact is the vast majority of attacks by black bears is not on tenters, rather it's on standing people. Why is that?
You can say that I'm taking a risk with my food in my tent and you're probably right, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. And if someone copies me without researching the issue not knowing the risk, that's not irresponsibility on my part.
Some could say you're irresponsible for hiking around bears, but for some reason you feel it's worth the risk. I hope you don't recommend hiking for other people that would be irresponsible.
I wonder what else you do that is irresponsible:-? do you hike alone? do you....
Rhetorical questions.
chiefiepoo
07-01-2010, 19:40
The "Bear Beuda triangle", is best concept in bear avoidance. Learned and practiced this in Griz country out in Glacier. Note about current state of affairs is prudent decision making. Bear wallow, stripped berry bushes, busted up rotten logs, overturned rocks say take extreme precautions or just move on. No need to camp where there is an active, hungry bear. In many western griz locations i have seeen campers and guides direct the slackers to hang their stuff for the common good.
I use the triangle method most times. First off, I try to find out everything I can about the current state of affairs of the area I am going to in relation to bears. I am only dealing with the east, so we are talking only BB. Mr Griz is a whole other set of rules.
The by the book triangle method is 200 foot between each point and the 3 points being cooking, washing and cleaning and the bear bag. Your sleeping 100 foot away from any part of the triangle. The "proven" purpose of all this is that the bear will bounce around in the triangle if he comes in.
Now this is all well and good but MOST times you dont have all this room to work with, or care to work with. I just try to work with the "principle" of it. Key is to keep the sleeping area away from the other three.
Then you have the smellables you have to remember to put up...
Then you also have the bears who have a routine pattern through the campsite and are gonna come walking by your tent anyway.
THEN..even if all this is done, you still get the hair standing vist due to a fellow site-mate having food in the sleeping area.
So in the end you do what you can and learn by heart what to do if there is an encounter.[/QUOTE]
Lone Wolf
07-01-2010, 21:19
so you say....and I get the feeling your rollin your eyes as well. You go ahead and do it your way but I still contend that it is irresponsible to advise others to follow your method when it goes against all wilderness safe practices. Yeah...even if you aren't "advising" but just stating what you do, many newcomers to backpacking may take that as a suggestion. I can imagine it...hiker sleeps with food....wakes up with bear tearing at tent....bear gets food....hiker scared, no food, damaged shelter....trip over.
i ain't advising anybody. just stating what i do. big difference hon. obviously you and most folks ain't comfortable in the out of doors. do what you gotta do :)
Sierra Echo
07-01-2010, 21:29
Can you feel the love!?!?!?!!?! :sun
Lone Wolf
07-01-2010, 21:32
Can you feel the love!?!?!?!!?! :sun
i'm all about love. and trail knowledge. i'm the best at both. follow me :cool:
The entertainment value of the label alone is worth the price of the soap. Dr. Bronner was SERIOULSLY wacked out on Scooby Snacks.
http://www.drbronner.com/pdf/drbronner_32oz_Pep.pdf
Or a few fries short of a "Happy Meal". :rolleyes:
Back to soap and streams.
I used to think that biodegradable soap (I use Camp Suds) could be used directly in a stream. NO, NO, NO!!!! I was told by another hiker. It doesn't break down quickly in a stream - It needs to be in contact with the bacteria that live in the soil, or so I was told. Nowadays when I feel the need to soap up I grab a gallon ziplock bag full of water and walk into the woods to wash.
Sierra Echo
07-01-2010, 21:52
i'm all about love. and trail knowledge. i'm the best at both. follow me :cool:
Lead the way! I am right behind you!
Fiddleback
07-02-2010, 10:47
It's perfectly OK to take on risk. It is not OK to project risk on to others...or on to wildlife.
Draw a bear into an aggressive encounter or acclimate a bear to the possibility of free eats because of casually handled food and/or inappropriate sanitation (including washing dishes in streams) and one has quite likely projected an increased risk upon hikers/campers yet to come and/or put the bear at increased risk for harsh 'management'.
Doing it 'my way' is great. But individual freedom only works when in concert with individual responsibility.
FB
Bear Cables
07-02-2010, 11:16
It's perfectly OK to take on risk. It is not OK to project risk on to others...or on to wildlife.
Draw a bear into an aggressive encounter or acclimate a bear to the possibility of free eats because of casually handled food and/or inappropriate sanitation (including washing dishes in streams) and one has quite likely projected an increased risk upon hikers/campers yet to come and/or put the bear at increased risk for harsh 'management'.
Doing it 'my way' is great. But individual freedom only works when in concert with individual responsibility.
FB
I totally agree. There is a "'ripple effect" in every choice we make.
True, but in practice most of the cooking, washing and cleaning is done on the front edge of the shelters or on a picnic table right outside the shelter. The easiest way to sleep 100' away from the cooking/cleaning would probably be to stop and cook supper on the trail, then continue on to where you plan to spend the night.
Or cook and eat and the shelter and move on to camp. You might have cooked there, but chances are others have. That way you aren't sleeping near the "known food sites" to bears, varmits, whatnot
longhiker
07-05-2010, 01:44
You really aren't taking a personal risk by being careless with bear bagging -- you are putting the rest of us and wildlife at risk. Go on like this and soon it'll be like Europe with no wildlife what so ever.
I walk about 2 - 3 minutes from my campsite and then start looking for a tree. It often takes me up to 30 minutes for the whole song and dance. But I sleep well knowing I'm affecting the wildlife as little as possible.
Lone Wolf
07-05-2010, 06:59
You really aren't taking a personal risk by being careless with bear bagging -- you are putting the rest of us and wildlife at risk. Go on like this and soon it'll be like Europe with no wildlife what so ever.
not a fact. just an opinion
Fiddleback
07-05-2010, 11:26
But a demonstrable opinion.
My home region lost five bears in June, two grizzlies and three black bears to euthanization. We suffered one human fatality and one injury.
One of the griz and all of the black bears had become habituated to food. In the instance with the injury from a black bear, the camper's site was clean but the one next to him was not. In the instance involving the fatality, the hiker was alone, without bear spray, and ignored warning signs that a grizzly in the area had been recently revived from research darting. The injured camper was a victim of someone else's misbehavior. The hiker who died took on personal risk and lost his life and cost the life of the bear as well.
That's a tremendous human and wildlife loss within about four weeks...all as a result of someone not doing what is right/recommended and doing it their way instead.
FB
Lone Wolf
07-05-2010, 12:22
this is the AT not Montana. bears get used to people food because those that do hang their food do a lousy job of it. easy pickins' for the bear
this is the AT not Montana. bears get used to people food because those that do hang their food do a lousy job of it. easy pickins' for the bear
Have you ever heard of a bear coming into an AT shelter to grab a bag of food hanging within, Wolf?
Has anyone?
TIDE-HSV
07-05-2010, 13:23
Have you ever heard of a bear coming into an AT shelter to grab a bag of food hanging within, Wolf?
Has anyone?
At the old Peck's Corner shelter, I watched one roaring and trying to come through the fence for hours. Both the corner posts were bent in 3-4". One hiker had Mace and sprayed him right in the face. Didn't do a bit of good, except make him madder...
At the old Peck's Corner shelter, I watched one roaring and trying to come through the fence for hours. Both the corner posts were bent in 3-4". One hiker had Mace and sprayed him right in the face. Didn't do a bit of good, except make him madder...
Did it come into the shelter?
Must have bee very cool to see him try, though. I was thinking more of places that didn't have bear cables and such.
One would have to be nuts to sleep with food in an area where the bears are not hunted. But how about at all those shelters where there are no cables, boxes or fences? Has anyone ever had a bear come in to grab food from one of them?
NoBo2011
07-05-2010, 13:39
yeah....well....i'll take my chances. i'm thinkin' i got a heck of a lot more experience tenting and storing food than you. just sayin'....
Depends on where you are. In the Eastern US you can get away with this, although I have plenty of friends who have gotten little mouse-holes in their packs from leaving snickers wrappers in them.
In some other parts of the country, your methods would be not only appalling, but dangerous.
I think you meant to say "tenting and storing food IN THE EAST." or "ON THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL." In which case you would probably be right. But you need the qualifier in there.
My guess for the OP is that the man isn't from the East and he's used to much more stringent food storage requirements (that are a matter of safety, not convenience) than you were displaying, and didn't realize that the game is a bit different in the East. So yeah, I'd say he was a bit paranoid, except for the washing dishes in the water source part.
TIDE-HSV
07-05-2010, 13:44
Did it come into the shelter?
Must have bee very cool to see him try, though. I was thinking more of places that didn't have bear cables and such.
One would have to be nuts to sleep with food in an area where the bears are not hunted. But how about at all those shelters where there are no cables, boxes or fences? Has anyone ever had a bear come in to grab food from one of them?
This was the old-style shelter, with no bear cables - just the fence and gate to keep the animals (except mice) out. No, he didn't make it through the fence. It was a cool experience only in retrospect. It was terrifying at the time. I guess there's a possibility of rabies rage, in which case food wasn't the object at all. I never heard any followup on that incident, which obviously wasn't the first for that shelter, with the pre-existing damage...
Lone Wolf
07-05-2010, 14:32
Depends on where you are. In the Eastern US you can get away with this, although I have plenty of friends who have gotten little mouse-holes in their packs from leaving snickers wrappers in them.
In some other parts of the country, your methods would be not only appalling, but dangerous.
I think you meant to say "tenting and storing food IN THE EAST." or "ON THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL." In which case you would probably be right. But you need the qualifier in there.
My guess for the OP is that the man isn't from the East and he's used to much more stringent food storage requirements (that are a matter of safety, not convenience) than you were displaying, and didn't realize that the game is a bit different in the East. So yeah, I'd say he was a bit paranoid, except for the washing dishes in the water source part.
this is the general AT forum. no qualifier needed
Fiddleback
07-06-2010, 10:38
this is the AT not Montana. bears get used to people food because those that do hang their food do a lousy job of it. easy pickins' for the bear
I didn't communicate my point well enough.
The bears are dead, so is one hiker, and a camper had his ear sown back on because of inappropriate actions by someone (not necessarily the victim). 'Our' actions, when irresponsible or otherwise contrary to recommended practices, not only bring risk to ourselves but also increase risk to other recreationists and wildlife.
FB
Lone Wolf
07-06-2010, 11:14
I didn't communicate my point well enough.
The bears are dead, so is one hiker, and a camper had his ear sown back on because of inappropriate actions by someone (not necessarily the victim). 'Our' actions, when irresponsible or otherwise contrary to recommended practices, not only bring risk to ourselves but also increase risk to other recreationists and wildlife.
FB
ain't no grizzlies on the AT. i'll sleep with my food
I use the triangle method most times. First off, I try to find out everything I can about the current state of affairs of the area I am going to in relation to bears. I am only dealing with the east, so we are talking only BB. Mr Griz is a whole other set of rules.
.
Yep, aint got those critters in the East. :DDont think I ever saw a west side BB on the AT either, unless it ran away from a circus or something. Still, I dont think I'd ask it for its residency card:banana
Tipi Walter
07-06-2010, 12:49
ain't no grizzlies on the AT. i'll sleep with my food
I think I'll share these fotogs one more time of some bear activity during my last backpacking trip(June)into the mountains of TN and NC.
FOTO ONE: BearVault 1, Bear 0
FOTO TWO: Bear 1, Thermarest 0
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F063010%5F002700%5F544958.jpg
http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/10065/tj10065%5F063010%5F002353%5F544957.jpg
Lone Wolf
07-06-2010, 14:11
so............
Tenderheart
07-06-2010, 14:29
Hey Tipi Walter, don't try to confuse this man with facts. His mind is already made up. I suppose this post will shortly be edited.
litefoot 2000
Lone Wolf
07-06-2010, 15:09
Hey Tipi Walter, don't try to confuse this man with facts. His mind is already made up. I suppose this post will shortly be edited.
litefoot 2000
a bear chewed a thermarest and a bear canister. so?
generoll
07-06-2010, 19:21
since I can't seem to start a new thread I'll post this here. A hiker was chased into the upper level of the Plum Orchard Shelter today by an exceptionally aggressive black bear. He had his pack with him and managed to get back to Dicks Creek and then into Hiawassee intact, but lost a hiking pole to the bear in the encounter. He's done for now and I believe I'll be taking him to Gainesville and the bus station tomorrow.
He didn't get a chance to hang his food. The bear was apparently rather impatient.
Pedaling Fool
07-06-2010, 19:31
since I can't seem to start a new thread I'll post this here. A hiker was chased into the upper level of the Plum Orchard Shelter today by an exceptionally aggressive black bear. He had his pack with him and managed to get back to Dicks Creek and then into Hiawassee intact, but lost a hiking pole to the bear in the encounter. He's done for now and I believe I'll be taking him to Gainesville and the bus station tomorrow.
He didn't get a chance to hang his food. The bear was apparently rather impatient.
What's up with all these aggressive bears; it must be all of us that sleep with food in our tents:rolleyes:
Appalachian Tater
07-06-2010, 19:42
he didn't get a chance to hang his food. The bear was apparently rather impatient.
lol.
654321
Bear Cables
07-06-2010, 20:34
Have you ever heard of a bear coming into an AT shelter to grab a bag of food hanging within, Wolf?
Has anyone?
Yes. It happend to my hiking partner in the Smokies before they took the fences off the shelters. Bear came into camp and grabbed a food bag through the chain link.
TIDE-HSV
07-06-2010, 21:06
Aside from the incident I related at Pecks Corner, where the bear was not successful, I know of three incidents at the LeConte shelter, one of which occurred when I was there, the other two having been related by the staff at the Lodge. I heard of quite a few other incidents in the park, back before the fences were taken down. In all incidents, the gate to the shelter was open. In the one incident on LeConte when I was there, the bear was coming back for a second helping after having taken one pack with food in it. As luck had it, I was in position to slam the door on her nose. I may be missing something here. Why should a bear regard a food bag or pack in a shelter any differently from one hanging in a tree? I can't see the difference and I'm sure the bears can't either...
Lone Wolf
07-06-2010, 21:27
wow. bearanoia. too funny. i'll never know what it's like to have my chow stolen from a bear. sleeping with it is the only way
To each their own.
We have always been careless here in Mo and Arkansas. Thrus had to really show us how to hang on the AT since there was a bear hanging around jerry cabin our first night out and we had no idea how to really hang a bag high and out. Now here, we are told to really hang because there have been bear encounters and now we do and when we go north, we will really hang our bags because we are advised to do that.
Being a small woman, I am not as brave when it comes to keeping food in my tent. If I was a big fellow, and armed, I would probably feel differently but since there is a group of us I am not carrying that 38 on our pack trip.
Sleeping with food in the tent isn't what trains bears that humans are a source of food. Most heavily-used campsites and shelters have spilled food and grease and debris all over the place. I saw someone in the Smokies frying chicken inside the shelter; dropped a piece on the floor; flicked it out into the woods. (Way to tantalize a hungry animal!) On Siler Bald last weekend, a couple of kids camping out had spilled probably half a pound of rolled oats on the ground, and left it. By late summer almost every campsite and shelter in NC has food wrappers and garbage in the fire circle.
One fairly effective way to minimize your chance of bear trouble is to avoid camping in spots where aggressive bears hang out. Lots of bear scat is a good indicator that you might want to move on several miles further down the trail. Along the AT, the shelter registers will have information about problems people have had. In the Smokies, the rangers keep track of encounters and post the information on the bulletin boards.
BTW, Gene, to start a new thread:
Go to the Forums heading
Choose the forum in which you want to start the thread
There should be a button to the top left that says "New Thread"
And there you go!
Lone Wolf
07-07-2010, 07:33
Sleeping with food in the tent isn't what trains bears that humans are a source of food. Most heavily-used campsites and shelters have spilled food and grease and debris all over the place. I saw someone in the Smokies frying chicken inside the shelter; dropped a piece on the floor; flicked it out into the woods. (Way to tantalize a hungry animal!) On Siler Bald last weekend, a couple of kids camping out had spilled probably half a pound of rolled oats on the ground, and left it. By late summer almost every campsite and shelter in NC has food wrappers and garbage in the fire circle.
One fairly effective way to minimize your chance of bear trouble is to avoid camping in spots where aggressive bears hang out. Lots of bear scat is a good indicator that you might want to move on several miles further down the trail. Along the AT, the shelter registers will have information about problems people have had. In the Smokies, the rangers keep track of encounters and post the information on the bulletin boards.
finally. someone who knows what they're talking about
This guy is seriously paranoid.
If it was raining, I would cook 1) inside the shelter or 2) under tarp or tent (stove on outside of course). Frankly, 99% of all thru hikers will do the same, at least after the first couple hundred miles. By then they realize that the AT is not Montana, the bears aren't that dangerous, and they don't like being out in the rain either!
David
Fiddleback
07-07-2010, 10:29
ain't no grizzlies on the AT. i'll sleep with my food
Just to keep things straight, the June count was two grizzlys and three black bears killed. One of those black bears bit off a camper's ear (the bear bit through the tent and landed on the dude's head) after being attracted by the food/garbage that was left at the campsite next door.
Which region or which bear species don't count for much when improperly handled food acts as an attractant. Now...the size of the bite and the results of the 'aggression'...that is different...;)
FB
Pedaling Fool
07-07-2010, 10:32
Just to keep things straight, the June score was; grizzlys 0-2, black bears 0-3. One of those killed black bears bit off a camper's ear (the bear bit through the tent and landed on the dude's head) after being attracted by the food/garbage that was left at the campsite next door.
FB
What did he do at the campsite that attracted him? Why go to the campsite that did not attract him? Incidents like this only create questions in my mind.
rpenczek
07-07-2010, 11:07
I am not so sure the adult in the OP's post was overly paranoid. Maybe the youth he had with him included a few Boy Scouts who were preparing for a trip out West to Philmont. The original post read just like the teachings at Philmont (triangle and leave no trace). So perhaps, the adult was attempting to teach his youth the proper methods vs. the I have tons of experience and never had an issue method of camping/cooking in bear country (East or West). I think we might all agree one should learn the proper method of doing any activity first and then allow their collective experine (over time) to modify their own methods.
Of course, as has been mentioned directly and indirectly, the shelters along the AT are really dirty places (truly dirty) and contain hidden dirt (those pesky food spills and lingering smells). Futher, in my opinion, it is not your food bag that attracts the bears, its everyones food bag and food spills (all over time) that bring the bears to well used shelters/sites. So while you might be safe tonight, the guy/gal that follows you tomorrow night might not be so lucky (even if they follow the proper methods). Unless everyone follows these practices, the only safe thing to do is not use the shelters or overly used camp sites when ever possible.
generoll
07-07-2010, 11:07
OK, Marta. Thanks. I see it now. I took the kid to Gainesville this morning and got a bit more of the story. He's still so scared over the encounter that he couldn't sleep last night and declined my offer to stop for breakfast.
He'd apparently built a small fire and roasted some marshmellows for his lunch. He's been hiking since Springer and had seen several bears, but they'd always retreated when he came upon them. He hung his marshmellows from the cable and lay down on the table to take a short nap before continuing on to Muskrat Creek. This time he was awakened by the bear which declined to retreat when he banged his hiking poles together and instead the bear followed him into the shelter. I believe the Plum Orchard Shelter is a tri-level affair and the young man went up to the very top of the shelter with the bear close behind. He kept poking at the bear with his sticks in hopes of driving the bear off, which is how he lost one hiking pole. The bear eventually moved off enough for him to get out of his perch and the hiker headed back for Dicks Creek. He said he saw the bear (or another) behind him about 10 minutes later which I assume gave wings to his feet. Once he go to a point where he could hit a cell he dialed 911 and asked for help. He apparently also called his girlfriend to tell her what was going on and kept moving to the gap. He said no one showed up and he was eventually able to get a ride at Dicks Creek and got back to the Hiawassee Inn.
I got a call from Survivor Dave who had been contacted by the hikers girlfriend and although Dave was a bit skeptical he asked me to keep an eye out for a hiker who might or might not need help. I was on my way back from Chattanooga and stopped at the motel to see what they knew and that's where I met the hiker, who'd already gotten out of the woods on his own. I took the hiker to Gainesville this morning and he's now presumably on a Greyhound headed for Orlando.
The hiker did tell me that there was a large quantity of trash around Plum Orchard. I believe that the ridgerunner is done for this year and I'll go up there tomorrow with a trash bag and tote the stuff out. The hiker met some homeless people on the trail who were headed for Plum Orchard. If they're still there I'll ask them if they've seen anything.
The hiker did say that there was no apparent response to his 911 call.
OK, Marta. Thanks. I see it now. I took the kid to Gainesville this morning and got a bit more of the story. He's still so scared over the encounter that he couldn't sleep last night and declined my offer to stop for breakfast.
He'd apparently built a small fire and roasted some marshmellows for his lunch. He's been hiking since Springer and had seen several bears, but they'd always retreated when he came upon them. He hung his marshmellows from the cable and lay down on the table to take a short nap before continuing on to Muskrat Creek. This time he was awakened by the bear which declined to retreat when he banged his hiking poles together and instead the bear followed him into the shelter. I believe the Plum Orchard Shelter is a tri-level affair and the young man went up to the very top of the shelter with the bear close behind. He kept poking at the bear with his sticks in hopes of driving the bear off, which is how he lost one hiking pole. The bear eventually moved off enough for him to get out of his perch and the hiker headed back for Dicks Creek. He said he saw the bear (or another) behind him about 10 minutes later which I assume gave wings to his feet. Once he go to a point where he could hit a cell he dialed 911 and asked for help. He apparently also called his girlfriend to tell her what was going on and kept moving to the gap. He said no one showed up and he was eventually able to get a ride at Dicks Creek and got back to the Hiawassee Inn.
I got a call from Survivor Dave who had been contacted by the hikers girlfriend and although Dave was a bit skeptical he asked me to keep an eye out for a hiker who might or might not need help. I was on my way back from Chattanooga and stopped at the motel to see what they knew and that's where I met the hiker, who'd already gotten out of the woods on his own. I took the hiker to Gainesville this morning and he's now presumably on a Greyhound headed for Orlando.
The hiker did tell me that there was a large quantity of trash around Plum Orchard. I believe that the ridgerunner is done for this year and I'll go up there tomorrow with a trash bag and tote the stuff out. The hiker met some homeless people on the trail who were headed for Plum Orchard. If they're still there I'll ask them if they've seen anything.
The hiker did say that there was no apparent response to his 911 call.
Thanks for describing the incident, Gene.
Lone Wolf, don't you feel guilty for causing all this by sleeping with your food in your tent?:D
Ironbelly
07-08-2010, 09:59
I have to agree with Marta and Lone Wolf. The vast majority of bear encounters, when you really dig into them and look at all of the circumstances and facts, end up being due to general campsite cleanliness. Whether that is at a shelter or not it doesnt matter. If you leave food debris and trash/wrappers all over the place then animals of all types not just bears learn to associate those smells with that particular place and will begin to frequent the location.
Sleeping with your food in your tent isn't an issue in black bear country typically. I sleep with my food in my tent. However, I do hang my trash/food waste, As cooked food has a much stronger scent.
If you leave your trash in the backcountry or do not properlly clean up after a food spill or whatever then you are the problem, not people who don't hang their food.
Paying attention to your surroundings will do more for you than hanging your food. If I see a location is trashed or has a very active bear population I will move on down the trail and camp far away from said shelter/campsite.
Be safe out there, and PACK OUT YOUR TRASH!
TIDE-HSV
07-08-2010, 17:57
It should be remembered that, in the Smokys, the option of moving on away from the shelter or campsite is not really an option at all, unless you're prepared to pay the rather substantial fine...
couscous
07-08-2010, 18:33
Substantial fine is an understatement .. Maximum fine for each violation (such as not staying at designated sites and shelters) is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.
TIDE-HSV
07-08-2010, 19:05
Substantial fine is an understatement .. Maximum fine for each violation (such as not staying at designated sites and shelters) is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.
Wow! Has that ever risen. The last one I saw passed out was at Walnut Bottoms, probably 20 years ago. Two kids had decided to camp there instead of their permitted site. The ranger happened by and checked permits and started writing them a ticket - $350 each. They cussed and grumbled and he offered to write them a new permit for where they were, but they were so POed, they decided to just walk out...
It should be remembered that, in the Smokys, the option of moving on away from the shelter or campsite is not really an option at all, unless you're prepared to pay the rather substantial fine...
Before your trip you can check the Park's website, and check the bulletin board when you get your permit, to see if there is a bear problem at any of the shelters or campsites you're planning to stay at. If you think bears are going to freak you out, you have the option of calling and rearranging your schedule to avoid places that have active bear problems. The rangers will close shelters and campsites if the problems really become severe.
TIDE-HSV
07-09-2010, 00:49
Before your trip you can check the Park's website, and check the bulletin board when you get your permit, to see if there is a bear problem at any of the shelters or campsites you're planning to stay at. If you think bears are going to freak you out, you have the option of calling and rearranging your schedule to avoid places that have active bear problems. The rangers will close shelters and campsites if the problems really become severe.
That is useful, but it's hardly hard info. After hiking the Smokys now for forty years, I know exactly which sites and areas have a history of bear problems. I don't really have a lot of faith in the NPS methods of designation. It's not unusual at all to see the Walnut Bottoms, Sterling sites to flip back and forth between warnings and even closed, even though the sites are so close that it's obviously the same bears (the Big Creek ranger once admitted this to me). They're more sort of a political CYA move.
If it's the same bears going from Walnut Bottoms to Sterling and back, those are some seriously fit bears! That's a decent climb.
All I'm saying is that the Park warnings are an indicator that you might very well have bears in camp that night. If that's not okay with you, there are dozens and dozens of other campsites and some shelters to choose from, when you're planning your trip.
TIDE-HSV
07-09-2010, 11:25
If it's the same bears going from Walnut Bottoms to Sterling and back, those are some seriously fit bears! That's a decent climb.
All I'm saying is that the Park warnings are an indicator that you might very well have bears in camp that night. If that's not okay with you, there are dozens and dozens of other campsites and some shelters to choose from, when you're planning your trip.
Bears are seriously fit and range over several miles. However, that was probably 25 years ago (and WB was known for problem bears back then). There are approximately three times more bears in the park as there were 40 years ago. The only way to fit more bears in is to shrink their ranges...
mister krabs
07-09-2010, 11:49
If it's the same bears going from Walnut Bottoms to Sterling and back, those are some seriously fit bears! That's a decent climb.
This past Sunday Morning in the Mark Twain Wilderness, I watched a good sized bear sprint straight up a 60% slope and gain about 200 feet of elevation in about 20 seconds. He sure was fit. I imagine he had just been raiding the upper chattahoochee river campground.
TIDE-HSV
07-09-2010, 12:45
This past Sunday Morning in the Mark Twain Wilderness, I watched a good sized bear sprint straight up a 60% slope and gain about 200 feet of elevation in about 20 seconds. He sure was fit. I imagine he had just been raiding the upper chattahoochee river campground.
They can move even faster downhill. I chased the one which stole my wife's pack at Sheep Pen Gap, but it was useless. I think they could give a horse a good race. The Cades Cove ranger said that he probably had a pile of pilfered packs 3-4 miles down the mountain (they had run across them, off trail). When I questioned the distance, he said that was nothing to them...
generoll
07-09-2010, 17:03
with regards to the incident I reported at Plum Orchard Shelter, it appears that there is some social history which calls into question the accuracy of the story.
rather then compound my error by repeating stories told second hand I'll just say that I was likely taken in by someone that just wanted to go home.
Sorry about that. I'll try to refrain from spreading gossip which I can't confirm first hand.
TIDE-HSV
07-09-2010, 18:08
with re....gards to the incident I reported at Plum Orchard Shelter, it appears that there is some social history which calls into question the accuracy of the story.
rather then compound my error by repeating stories told second hand I'll just say that I was likely taken in by someone that just wanted to go home.
Sorry about that. I'll try to refrain from spreading gossip which I can't confirm first hand.
Sad.......
with regards to the incident I reported at Plum Orchard Shelter, it appears that there is some social history which calls into question the accuracy of the story.
rather then compound my error by repeating stories told second hand I'll just say that I was likely taken in by someone that just wanted to go home.
Sorry about that. I'll try to refrain from spreading gossip which I can't confirm first hand.
The sad part of this, if it were me, would be the reluctance to help someone in the future, that might have a similar honest issue.
If that is just me, good on you.