PDA

View Full Version : Winter Shelter Options



Danielsen
07-23-2010, 12:31
I'm interested in doing some winter backpacking on the nearby Finger Lakes Trail, and while I'm used to hiking in this area during the winter, I have no experience camping in the winter. So my question is: what shelter types work well in the winter?

Are tarps feasible?

Are "3-season" tents suitable for non-alpine winter conditions?

I know some love winter hammocking but I don't want to deal with buying overquilts and etc. and while I own and sometimes use a Hennessy, it's generally not my thing.

Would it be better to just stick with my Outdoor Research Bivy? They are made for alpine conditions, of course, and probably are better in winter than other seasons, but the comfort factor is a bit lacking.

I've been looking at ultralight tarptent-type shelters as well. Anyone use these in the winter?

The region I'll be in often sees overall snow cover as deep as a few feet with high drifts here and there, with calm, long-lasting but heavy snowfall being a common form of precipitation. And then sometimes it all melts and the sky turns sleety..

If you've got experience backpacking/camping in the winter with any of these shelter types, I'd love to hear your input.

couscous
07-23-2010, 13:00
Lots of variables, but tarps and 3-season tents are feasible. For me it's much simpler and warmer to sleep on the ground in winter, so I leave the hammocks at home and grab one of my tarp tents. Key point with either system is adequate insulation underneath.
I hear igloos and snow caves are a great option if you have the time to build them.

http://www.twchikers.com/the-one.jpg

Danielsen
07-23-2010, 13:33
Alright, so I should probably carry a bigger/thicker pad? I'm used to just using a trimmed-down closed-cell foam pad.

How well do you think that shelter type would hold up under say a 6-inch overnight snowfall?

Tom Murphy
07-23-2010, 13:37
I use a 3 season tent for winter camping in the White Mountains (NH).

- Below tree line camping only

- Fully guyed out and set-up near natural wind blocks

- Build snow walls around base of tent ~ 1 foot high - because I found snow could blow thru the mesh of the tent

- Create / allow ventilation at top ridge of tent

- If snowing at bed time or expected - set alarm on watch and brush off snow in middle of the night - maybe multiple times

Tom Murphy
07-23-2010, 13:39
two pads - one inflatable and one closed cell

www.wintercampers.com (http://www.wintercampers.com)

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml

Danielsen
07-23-2010, 13:47
Those are some great tips and links, thanks!

garlic08
07-23-2010, 14:42
Definitely take two full-length pads. For one of your pads, consider Reflectix duct insulation. It's basically bubble wrap made with foil-coated mylar. I've used that with a Z-Rest and it's worked OK. In my experience, an inflatable has not been necessary. With repeated inhalation of damp breath, you could get some freezing inside an inflatable.

Good advice about handling snowfall above. A silnylon tarptent works OK in snow. Be more cautious of condensation with zippers--they have been known to freeze shut.

Instead of or in addition to snow stakes, bring a little extra cord and make deadmen--a horizontal stick in a snow trench with a loop of cord up out of the snow. You'll probably have to abandon these since they'll likely freeze solid. One advantage of my Tarptent is that it only has four stake-out points, so two skis and one pole taken apart hold it up, with the other pole as support, so no messing around with staking.

The attached photo is of my old floorless Tarptent Virga on a ski trip at Crater Lake in Oregon, with over ten feet of snow on the ground and another foot that night.

garlic08
07-23-2010, 14:43
Oops, forgot the photo:

Danielsen
07-23-2010, 15:11
Sleeping on 10+ feet of snow? And I thought Buffalo winters got crazy! :D

I'm in the process of constructing my own 3-season tent but I don't think the design is well suited to winter, so I'm starting to ponder making a specialized one... How serious does condensation get on the fly? I'm thinking of a partially single-wall construction...

Tom Murphy
07-23-2010, 17:16
Your winter tent needs to be able to handle the potential snow loads. And if your are above tree-line it needs to be able to handle significant wind loads.

So if you are considering a tarp or constructing your own tent, you need to think of the weight of the snow and wind...

Look at the design of the 4 season tents and start listing the differences between them and the 3 season ones.

I use my MH lightwedge 2 as a solo tent in the winter and it has a serious drawback as a winter tent but I have managed to work around them

To expand on previous post:

- more than ~ two inches of snow and all the sides of the fly are touching the tent body, so I make sure the snow doesn't build up over night or cancel the trip if they forecast significant snow - it can really stink getting up AND going out into a storm every 2 hours from 6 pm to 8 am to brush off snow

- the snow blows in under fly and through the mesh, so I build snow walls about a foot from the edge of the fly and about a foot high as a wind block [I don't want to seal up the bottom edge becuase I want circulation to reduce condensation on the fly]

- the 3 season tent does not have a ridge line vent so I leave the top of the rain fly door open to promote circulation

- the 3 season tent traps almost no heat so I don't get the + 5-10 deg F heat gain a 4 season tent might get you

I suggest a tippi or pyramid design for a winter tarp.

I suggest you prove out your design by camping in backyard or at TH near car before camping in the woods.

I am sure that you can make a bivy / tarp combo work.

sectionhiker.com - Phil has winter camped with a tarp tent and is planning to winter camp with a tarp/bivy this year

Good luck.

JAK
07-23-2010, 18:42
I like a bivy and tarp, and 2 blue foam pads, because it is pretty flexible. You can use it under a big spruce tree, or use it in a trench type snow shelter, or out in the open if it is mild enough.

Danielsen
07-23-2010, 20:43
Yeah, I'm starting to lean towards just the bivy/tarp. The tarp portion of the "tarptent" I'm making should do just fine, and then in warmer weather it'll be easy to just switch the bivy out for the internal tent portion.

Regardless of what I go with, there will certainly be backyard testing conducted prior to actual expedition use! :D Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

No Belay
07-26-2010, 22:38
Check out the Scarp1 design from Tarptents. Henry put a lot of testing time into this computer designed 4 season tent and it's rock solid. I bought one of the first to hit the woods 2 years ago and have used the updated fly since last Dec. Spent a lot of blowing snow nights in it without a hitch while my hiking partner's tents were either flattened or so condensated that they were soaked. Winter isn't a good to use marginal equipment. I winter camped in a Golite Cave for three winters and it made for a lot of long miserable nights.

Savor Happy!
TaTonka

Father Dragon
07-27-2010, 02:13
First, I agree with using two pads. As someone who has had the experience of suffering through a bitter and potentially dangerous, cold night, staying warm is of key concern for me.

One thing to think about is, if you get cold and tired, and things turn "Sleety" (or worse), what kind of shelter do you want to set up and climb into? Do you want something that you have to crawl or roll into, or do you want something that you can get into easily, change clothes, and hunker down in if need be? I'll tell you, if I'm in a blizzard I don't want to be waiting it out in a bivouac or tent I can't sit up or sprawl out in... no real fun there, for me at least.

babbage
07-27-2010, 21:50
Yeah, I'm starting to lean towards just the bivy/tarp. The tarp portion of the "tarptent" I'm making should do just fine, and then in warmer weather it'll be easy to just switch the bivy out for the internal tent portion.

Regardless of what I go with, there will certainly be backyard testing conducted prior to actual expedition use! :D Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

I found winter nights to be too long for a bivy. That much time in such a confined space ended my bivy in the closet where it has been for years.

JAK
07-27-2010, 22:03
There is alot to be said for crawling into a tent to get yourself re-organized when things get nasty out. I've considered a very small kids square dome tent, big enough to sit up in, but not big enough to sleep in, and then just let the bivystick out the door. I would need to modify the door though because it was attached to the floor instead of at the top. Anyhow, I use the poncho tarp in a similar way in a compact pup tent under a tree. The blue foam pads help alot also, and the right clothes, and by having less stuff to keep organized. Clear plastic containers or bags help too.

Danielsen
08-01-2010, 22:15
Thanks again to all with the advice.

Fortunately I've generally been comfortable in my bivvy for a good night's sleep, even in some pretty cold conditions. I'm a pretty small guy and I don't have much trouble stretching out and even fitting some gear inside.

JAK, I do have a little cheap dome tent sitting around somewhere. I'll have to get it out and experiment with it once the snow starts falling. :D I don't know how well it would handle weight from snowfall, though.

Doctari
08-02-2010, 07:46
"2 season"
"3 season"
"4 season"

Tents are (Unless doing an assault on Everest) are IMHO for the most part marketing tools used by the tent makers. As in real-estate, "Location, location, location" can make or break your winter set up.

I tarp (& hammock) in winter quite often & have had great success with my tarp, in temps down to 8o & wind gusts up to at least 50 MPH, so if your bivy works for you, it's a "4 season shelter". Naturally, as others have mentioned, you will need extra insulation & all that. Just be prepared, have ample food & try to pick a location with ample protection from the wind. Also, look around for "micro climates" where it can be as much as 10 degrees warmer than as little as 50' away. At Hammock forums we do a yearly winter camp out, & have had temp ranges by that much with nearly similar thermometers, just at different locations in a few acres.

Danielsen
08-02-2010, 09:08
That's a good point about locations. Finding warmer spots is always good, as well as making sure you're not in a spot that'll get buried under a snowdrift if a wind kicks up in the night! :o

The Solemates
08-02-2010, 09:32
I do a 5-day trip every year just south of finger lakes, right across the border in PA, over Thanksgiving. I leave the Saturday before and hike til Wednesday, this year that is 20-24 November. While not quite winter yet, it is definitely winter conditions. We get snowed on every year and there is always snow on the ground. Nighttime temps were below 0 degrees 3 years ago. I'm always looking for a hiking partner. Over the past 2 years I've gone solo due to my partner backing out both times. I'd rather go with someone. If you are interested this year, let me know.

Smooth & Wasabi
08-02-2010, 09:42
I would second looking at a mid style. I just retired my 14 year old Black Diamond Mega-Mid for a Go lite Shagrila 3. Very snow and wind worthy, lots of usable space, and very light for a four season shelter.

Danielsen
08-02-2010, 19:08
I do a 5-day trip every year just south of finger lakes, right across the border in PA, over Thanksgiving. I leave the Saturday before and hike til Wednesday, this year that is 20-24 November. While not quite winter yet, it is definitely winter conditions. We get snowed on every year and there is always snow on the ground. Nighttime temps were below 0 degrees 3 years ago. I'm always looking for a hiking partner. Over the past 2 years I've gone solo due to my partner backing out both times. I'd rather go with someone. If you are interested this year, let me know.

I'll definitely keep that in mind. It'd be great to hike with someone with some winter experience in the same general area.

Bare Bear
08-06-2010, 12:13
Insulation is key. Under you is first consideration, but having a tent around you may be lifesaving. I hiked just under 1000 miles of the PCT (in three sections) mostly winter. Be ready for the worst possible weather and enjoy the solitude.

Llama Legs
08-06-2010, 13:59
As you know being from WNY, it gets dark and stays dark for 14 hours in winter. I've always had a much better time camping with someone and sharing a good-sized 4-season tent. Then you can sit-up, play cards, read, and you'll be comfortable in a fleece on top of your bag.

And I've also "roughed it".....

JAK
08-06-2010, 14:51
I think it depends alot on the type and size of trees that are likely to be around you, or not.

Danielsen
08-06-2010, 18:43
As you know being from WNY, it gets dark and stays dark for 14 hours in winter. I've always had a much better time camping with someone and sharing a good-sized 4-season tent. Then you can sit-up, play cards, read, and you'll be comfortable in a fleece on top of your bag.

And I've also "roughed it".....

For some reason I find the nights during winter here beautiful. There's just this deep sense of blue calm... I'd probably end up hiking in the dark until I really needed to go to sleep. :D

I'm kind of considering an altered sleep schedule. Sleep in the afternoon and into the evening since it's warmest then (and winter sunsets are rarely interesting), wake around midnight and keep hiking through the coldest part of night for warmth and enjoy the spectacular sunrises our winters seem to always have. Might work, might be awful. I'll have plenty of opportunity to experiment fortunately. :)

Mags
08-06-2010, 19:46
http://www.huts.org/

Hard to carry in a pack..but the wood stove is nice.

:)




(and winter sunsets are rarely interesting),

?

http://ih1.redbubble.net/work.2456185.2.flat,550x550,075,f.mitchell-lake-winter-sunset.jpg

(From my snow cave...yet another winter shelter idea! :D)



http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.2455567.2.flat,550x550,075,f.sunset-at-sangree-hut.jpg
(From a 10th mtn hut. There is probably a glass of wine in the background! ;) )

DapperD
08-06-2010, 20:55
I'm interested in doing some winter backpacking on the nearby Finger Lakes Trail, and while I'm used to hiking in this area during the winter, I have no experience camping in the winter. So my question is: what shelter types work well in the winter?

Are tarps feasible?

Are "3-season" tents suitable for non-alpine winter conditions?

I know some love winter hammocking but I don't want to deal with buying overquilts and etc. and while I own and sometimes use a Hennessy, it's generally not my thing.

Would it be better to just stick with my Outdoor Research Bivy? They are made for alpine conditions, of course, and probably are better in winter than other seasons, but the comfort factor is a bit lacking.

I've been looking at ultralight tarptent-type shelters as well. Anyone use these in the winter?

The region I'll be in often sees overall snow cover as deep as a few feet with high drifts here and there, with calm, long-lasting but heavy snowfall being a common form of precipitation. And then sometimes it all melts and the sky turns sleety..

If you've got experience backpacking/camping in the winter with any of these shelter types, I'd love to hear your input.Not cheap but appears to be possibly made for the conditions you describe:http://www.moontrail.com/hilleberg-soulo.php

Danielsen
08-08-2010, 14:30
http://www.huts.org/

Hard to carry in a pack..but the wood stove is nice.

:)





?

http://ih1.redbubble.net/work.2456185.2.flat,550x550,075,f.mitchell-lake-winter-sunset.jpg

(From my snow cave...yet another winter shelter idea! :D)



http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.2455567.2.flat,550x550,075,f.sunset-at-sangree-hut.jpg
(From a 10th mtn hut. There is probably a glass of wine in the background! ;) )

Sorry, I thought I had specified "in my area" and now I see that I didn't. I imagine winter sunsets are beautiful in many parts of the world but over here it's usually just a gray that fades into blue. The sunrises here, as mentioned, are fantastic during the winter.

The situation tends to reverse itself in the warm months.

Sadly, we don't have many mountain huts (or mountains, really) over here either.

Toolshed
08-08-2010, 15:24
Hi Danielsen,
Back when I lived on the Niagara Frontier I used to do a lot of hiking in your neck of the woods, The Conservation Trail, the Eastside and Westside Overland trails and of course the FLT.

Since most of any overnights you would do on any of those trails aren't really above treeline, I would say you would be fine with a quality 3-Season tent (that can handle a snow load) or a tarp tent that comes down very close to the ground. I used to carry either a Eureka Timberlite tent (No longer manufactured), a Quest Megamid-like tarp (no longer manufactured) or a bivy sack on my winter trips.

I did get buried under about 6-8 inches of snow in my closed down bivy one very cold night and awoke in a slight panicked state until I got the snow off and out of my breathing hole (it was icing over a bit).

I like the mega tarp for winter, since it was light quick and easy to bury the sides. I was leading a trip one winter weekend and one of the people tenting near me had a dog that kept coming over and digging through the snow to come into my tarptent (It was like a game to him).

The nice thing about the tent was that it offered plenty of snow free space to kick back and relax in. With the Tarptent, I noticed that when camping on the snow everything would slide down my ground cloth to the center pole area (Which always sunk in a little) this was annoying if you kicked up some snow on the edges of the ground cloth and it would eventually slide to your sleeping area (which was usually by the center pole) - I found the easiest way around this was to simply cut a hole in the groundcloth to let the pole pass through. :D

Since you are in the snow belt where you can easily get a couple of feet overnight and blowing and drifting, I would make sure that whatever shelter you have can handle a load and has extra guyout tabs.
Check out http://adk-nfc.org/wordpress/ to see if they have any winter beginner trips coming up - If you are not member, they usually allow you to go on a trip.
Good luck
Toolshed....

10-K
08-08-2010, 15:42
Lunar Duo, 13*, Bear Mt., NY 2009.

No problems - nice and warm in my bag. :)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Lavj5c_uJdY/Sy14X-2I3WI/AAAAAAAADH0/MKfkv76UF2w/s640/DSCN0380.JPG

Danielsen
08-08-2010, 15:56
Thanks for all the tips, toolshed. I'll definitely be looking into getting some sort of tarptent, most likely, if I find the bivy alone doesn't do the trick.

I've always been curious about pitching a tent on snow. How much sinking happens when you move around in a tent pitched over a foot of snow? Or is it usually easy enough to find spots with shallow snow to pitch a tent on?

Also, when the snow is thick are snowshoes necessary in your experience? I'm a decent snowshoer but could probably use more practice, if it's going to be seen as a necessity.

Toolshed
08-08-2010, 17:45
I normally use my ski's or snowshoes to stamp out an area. If the snow is more than 3-4 feet deep I might use my avalanche shovel to cut down a couple of feet as well as cut a path over to my kitchen (depending on how long I might be base camping there). but as your body warms the snow under your pad it will compress a few inches and conform a bit like your body. You should also carry a few snowstakes in deep snow in order to anchor your tent.
I usually wear snowshoes in 8-12 inches or more - I do use them in lighter snow for better traction as many times trails can become icy under the snow. Others may not wear them until snow is knee deep. In the ADK's where I do a lot of winter stuff, you need them, crampons or skis on in the winter or face a fine.

Doctari
08-09-2010, 07:56
Ive never camped in winter with a tent, but my experience with a tarp says that if you have snowfall, you need to keep up with any snow build up to keep your shelter from collapsing on you. 1st time: My tarp was pitched steep, & I often knocked the snow off, yet I woke up to my tarp nearly on my face (hammock ridgeline prevented that) the next morning. This was from the snow that had built up around the base of my tarp, slowly pushing it in (& down) on me. Next trip with snowfall, I kept the base clear* & no issues. When I winter camp, I carry a small snow shovel, a child's toy that I got at Big Lots but it works well enough for backpacking.



*with a tarp & hammock that was easy I simply rigged my tarp bottom 4 - 5" off the ground giving the snow somewhere to go.

kayak karl
08-09-2010, 08:41
*with a tarp & hammock that was easy I simply rigged my tarp bottom 4 - 5" off the ground giving the snow somewhere to go.
same here. never tented in snow, but hammocked. i used 10-12" off ground. same idea. snow would drift under. snow on tarp slid down till it built a wall and blocked wind.

if i went to the ground i would tarp to the ground, but use a tree to tree ridge line.

The Solemates
08-09-2010, 09:51
I'll definitely keep that in mind. It'd be great to hike with someone with some winter experience in the same general area.

just learned over the weekend he's gonna back out this year as well over thanksgiving and we're gonna go in october. so...the offer is still there because i will be solo in november.

Danielsen
08-09-2010, 16:10
As soon as I've got some more information about work and classes (sometime in the next couple weeks, hopefully) I'll let you know.

Danielsen
08-19-2010, 23:55
New question, especially for those of you who've used a non-freestanding tent on deepish snow: Do normal tent stakes work alright? If not, are there any particular snow-stakes that would be recommended? Does snow hold better than I expect or do you have to find a rock to pound them down into the actual ground?

Marta
08-20-2010, 07:13
It depends on the snow. Down south here, snow is often on the warm side and easy to pack around stakes.

Deep, cold powder is something else again. Pounding stakes into frozen, rocky ground is a recipe for bending lots of stakes.

One thing I've done successfully is to wrap the line around a good-sized piece of wood and then pack snow around that. For soft snow you need a lot of surface area for the snow to grab onto.

PS--You do want to make sure that you can undo in the morning whatever you did the previous night, or you'll be cutting your lines, or leaving your tent behind.

Ironbelly
08-20-2010, 12:29
Adding to what Marta said. Best way in deep powderis to dig a T style trench, in the _ part put a stick, snow stake, but stick preferablly. Then tie onto the middle of the stick with your guy line and run the line down the | part of the T. You don't even have to pack the snow down around it, but it does help, but will make breaking camp in the morning even harder because it will probally be a block of ice.. This holds quite well.... it is a common tactic used by mountain units in the military for rapelling, and is a somewhat common emergency rapell hold worldwide. It will hold alot of weight without any give. The bigger the stick etc the better, but choose your stick wisely!

Snow stakes do work decently well unless it is really loose power. Like Marta said, you can easily loose the "stick" and line so make sure that you have a decent amount of guy line with you in case you are forced to cut due to it being one large block of ice.

Danielsen
08-20-2010, 16:43
Thanks for the input, the snow anchor technique sounds like a safe bet if the powder is loose. The snowfall around here is usually a bit wet and heavy, so snow stakes should hopefully do the trick most of the time.

ec.hiker
12-06-2010, 23:19
I am heading to springer on the 13th for about 5 days second winter hiking/camping trip. If anyone wants to hitch a ride or meet up let me know.. And yes I realize there is a forum for this I just figured I would throw it out there.