Outfitters (not!)

[C-Stepper]

Well, here I sit making my wish list for Christmas...since I don't want to have "Santa" spewing drink out his nose when he reads my Christmas list, due to the expensive nature of the clothing I need to have before beginning a winter stroll, I was curious about some of the cheaper versions of items like down vests and jackets from places such as L.L. Bean.

Of course, the Bean doesn't post weights, nor compressibility, of it's $39 down vest, for example. These are both very important to me since I have a small pack (and I don't intend to change that fact). My experience with everyday wear from the Bean, though, is that the clothing is well-made and would stand up to trail use. I just don't need a huge puffy thing taking up half my pack space.

Any comments? Surely a few people have tried these and can comment. Thanks for helping out the newb.

[grrickar]

Campmor has cheap deals on clothing, so check them out. If weight and compressability is a concern, check out the gear at a sporting goods store, then get online and see if it is cheaper at Campmor. Fleece pants, shirts and jackets can typically be had cheap from Sports Authority or even Old Navy. Then there's always eBay...

As others have pointed out in later posts - support your local mom and pop outfitters. They are a dying breed....

[steve hiker]

$39 down vest,
Forget it. It's bound to be heavy and 550 fill at best. Couple years ago I bought a $99 REI brand down jacket, which turned out to be too heavy (25 oz) and had a problem with too many feathers coming out. Didn't compress that well, either. So I returned it.

My advise, if your funds are limited, buy one or two high-quality items that you can afford, and leave the rest on your wish list for the time being. Nothing worse than loading up on cheap junk.

[MisterSweetie]

Nothing worse than loading up on cheap junk.
What about not going out because you don't have the gear you want?

[JimSproul]

I bought a fleece top and pants at Target's last year. The are generic Chinese about the same weight and compressability as Polartec 200. I paid about $30 for the set. They are plenty warm enought under a breathable shell for weather in the upper 20's (Springer last March).

I bought one of those less than top of the line, about $50, down vest from Campmor, 1 lb 11 oz in a compressor stuff sack (3 oz). i like it.

[SGT Rock]

Check Sierra Trading Post, they have great deals and often post weights. Also, if Santa sews, then go to www.thru-hiker.com and order the parts to make your vest or jacket like you want - say 0.9 ounce materaial and 800+ fill down or something. Santa is sewing me a nice pullover that would have cost about $160 from Patagonia and the kit only cost about $65.

[Blue Jay]

Another great place for outdoor clothing is Good Will or Salvation Army. Of course it takes a very long time until something you need appears, let alone in your size, but I assume you are going to be hiking for the rest of your life. I have found almost every piece of clothing I would ever need there over the years and also some great cross country skis. Over the weekend I found a light weight, wind block fleece there for $12.

[Jaybird]

my Santa's list is very short this year.....he has been very generous in the past couple years....so, i dont "NEED" gear....but, would love to upgrade the sleeping (mummy) bag....


CAMPMORCAMPMORCAMPMORCAMPMORCAMPMORCAMPMORCAMPMOR


(& sometimes Cumberland Transit or REI) :D

[tlbj6142]

www.mec.ca (http://www.mec.ca) is a great source for inexpensive gear. The MEC label gets great reviews from owners. Ask Chris. I think everything in his pack has an MEC sticker on it.

[weary]

Another great place for outdoor clothing is Good Will or Salvation Army. Of course it takes a very long time until something you need appears, let alone in your size, but I assume you are going to be hiking for the rest of your life. I have found almost every piece of clothing I would ever need there over the years and also some great cross country skis. Over the weekend I found a light weight, wind block fleece there for $12.

Virtually, all my gear has come from LL Bean factory stores and Goodwill. It has served me well over the years, summer and winter. It's rarely the current fads, just last years fads, and 5-year-ago fads. Remember, that state of the art stuff that got 400 thru hikers from Springer to Katahdin in those long ago months of 1999. Look carefully and smart shoppers can buy it for pennies on a dollar.

Goodwill stores in Maine frequently get shipments of LL Bean surplus and returned stuff. Everyday factory store prices are great. Catch them on a periodic sale and it's even better.

Liking simple, traditional stuff, I never expected to own pants with zip off legs. But recently in the Freeport factory store I spied a nylon pair that fits my long legs for just $12.95. I couldn't resist. I bought two pairs, I've worn them regularly ever since.

Bean sells nothing but good sturdy stuff. They have to, given their 100 percent, forever return policy. You can save a few ounces elsewhere, but at the cost of many, many dollars.

Weary

[C-Stepper]

Thanks for the input...the experts have answered my questions, that it IS possible to find good deals elsewhere (I've been trying ebay...grikkar...have you been outbidding me??? STOP IT!).

I can tell the adults with responsibilities/had responsibilites from the kids/adults with no responsibilities without further questions to members on the forum. :jump

With 2 kids to put through college in four years, every dollar saved helps, so it's difficult to justify $200 vests and $150 rain shells if there are cheaper, yet decent quality, alternatives.

[TakeABreak]

As other have said LL Bean is expensive in comparison to Campmor or Sierra trading Post. What I do after I find what I am looking for in a catalog or store, is go to campmor and sierra trading post and see it they have it also, alot of times they do at a much cheaper price. You can also go to the manufacturers website a lot of times and get the actual of the item, Primus, Marmot and MSR are few example of manufacturers websites that usually have the exact of the item. this of method I use for doing my comparisons.

[grrickar]

Thanks for the input...the experts have answered my questions, that it IS possible to find good deals elsewhere (I've been trying ebay...grikkar...have you been outbidding me??? STOP IT!)
Probably:D The good news for you is that my wife has put her foot down and I'm not allowed to guy anything else, but watch out after Christmas - Ebay will be fair game again.

I'd say that I have saved about $200-300 off retail on my gear by buying stuff off ebay.

Over the last 12 months I picked up all of these on Ebay:
Optimus Crux canister stove (new)
Optimus Nova Liquid Fuel Stove (new)
MSR Hubba 1 man tent (new)
Princeton Tec Corona headlamp (new)
MSR Mini Works Water Filter (used)
Fuji A205 2MP Digital Camera (used, took it on my first section hike)
Nike Ascent Altimeter/Barometer Watch (demo)

My clothes came from Campmor or local sporting goods stores, and the rest of my gear came from REI. REI isn't always the best deal, but if you are a member you get a dividend check. When that is combined with an REI coupon, you can get a good deal on stuff. I've spent a small fortune the past 12 months, so I should get a fat check:clap

[grrickar]

One more suggestion: check out Wal Mart. You can buy a cheap LED headlamp there, convertible pants, fleece items, wool socks, and other small items cheap. I picked up fleece gloves from Burlington Coat Factory last weekend for under $8. Same gloves at Sports Authority were $25!

I don't go for brand names when it comes to clothes. Columbia makes good stuff, and they let you know it when you pull out your wallet to pay for it. I bought a fleece zip long sleeve shirt and fleece pant for $40 that was made by a company called Alpine Designs. The same item only with Columbia tags was easily twice as much. I have some Columbia stuff, but I can't always justify the cost.

[Skyline]

Campmor has cheap deals on clothing, so check them out. If weight and compressability is a concern, check out the gear at a local outfitter, then get online and see if it is cheaper at Campmor. Fleece pants, shirts and jackets can typically be had cheap from Sports Authority or even Old Navy. Then there's always eBay...


Let's see, you want to go to a probably-struggling local small business outfitter, have the salesperson spend his time and knowledge helping you, perhaps touch, feel, setup and/or try on various gear--and then you're going to shop price at Campmor?

Do you not see what's wrong with this picture?

[CanoeBlue]

:clap
Skyline thank you for saying that.

Giving service is not cheap, nor is it free. It costs - It costs the store that provides it, it costs the salesperson who provides it ...... and all too often it is taken for granted but resented when not given freely.

CanoeBlue

[grrickar]

Let's see, you want to go to a probably-struggling local small business outfitter, have the salesperson spend his time and knowledge helping you, perhaps touch, feel, setup and/or try on various gear--and then you're going to shop price at Campmor?

Do you not see what's wrong with this picture?I think you are being overcritical about this, and completely misconstrued what I was saying. I just said to shop around. Did I say I wasted one minute of anyone's time asking questions, getting them to fit me with boots, etc? Nope.

What is wrong with window shopping at one store and buying something from the web or another dealer? Nothing in my book. The gentleman asked how he could save some money on some gear, and I gave some advice.

Most of the time places like REI are the most expensive, so I'm giving my business to Campmor rather than buying from REI. Big deal. I'm an REI member and buy plenty from them as well. When I'm in trail towns I buy from the local shops even though they are in many cases more expensive.

[Skyline]

I think you are being overcritical about this, and completely misconstrued what I was saying. I just said to shop around. Did I say I wasted one minute of anyone's time asking questions, getting them to fit me with boots, etc? Nope.

What is wrong with window shopping at one store and buying something from the web or another dealer? Nothing in my book. The gentleman asked how he could save some money on some gear, and I gave some advice.

Most of the time places like REI are the most expensive, so I'm giving my business to Campmor rather than buying from REI. Big deal. I'm an REI member and buy plenty from them as well. When I'm in trail towns I buy from the local shops even though they are in many cases more expensive.


Glad you support the small businesses in trail towns. Some of them are on the endangered species list.

You did SEEM to promote what is surely one of the main reasons small outfitters are a dying breed. You did advise him to "go check out the gear at a local outfitter," and then to see if he could get a better price at Campmor. Now I suppose you could just walk in the door, check price labels, and walk right back out without any human interaction, but that's rarely the way it's done. It has become far too common, whether YOU intended it this way or not, for consumers to waste a lot of the local store's time and expertise to see what's available and how it fits or works--and then go buy it as cheap as possible on the internet.

BTW, using REI as an example of a brick-and-mortar outfitter kind of skews this whole issue. They, like EMS, Galyans, etc. are huge corporations with a presence everywhere it seems including the web. Like comparing a local hardware store to Wal-Mart. The little guy running an outfitter is hardly a match for any of them either, but usually the little guy will have more knowledgeable staff and give more and better personal attention--sometimes directly from the owner. But that shouldn't make anyone feel OK about using them but not supporting them.

I have no problem paying 5 to 15% more if I can get truly expert advice from someone who will spend significant time educating me and have the patience to let me try a bunch of stuff in the store (or even take it home over the weekend). Yeah, REI, EMS, etc. sometimes have good personnel but you sure can't depend on it.

[grrickar]

[QUOTE=Skyline]

BTW, using REI as an example of a brick-and-mortar outfitter kind of skews this whole issue. They, like EMS, Galyans, etc. are huge corporations with a presence everywhere it seems including the web. Like comparing a local hardware store to Wal-Mart. [QUOTE]

Depending on where you live, you may or may not have a local outfitter. My local 'outfitter' sells more guns, bows/arrows, and camo clothes than camping, hiking or kayaking gear. I buy from them whenever they have what I need, which is rare. I seldom even go there for that very reason. I did buy my backpack from them, along with my Dagger Animas kayak. If you total that up I have spent much more there than with all my combined purchases at large box shops like REI and Campmor.

I do not even have an REI in Alabama. If I want to shop at REI, I either do so online or when I am in another city for business. Hibbetts and Dick's Sporting Goods (also large box shops) also carry precious few items of use. If you are car camping, Dick's has the gear. Backpacking....ummm, no.

So, let me clarify my position on this for all. I agree that everyone should support their local outfitter whenever possible. I do (whenever I am in a trail town like Hot Springs and have a 'local' outfitter to buy from!), and I suggest everyone else do the same.

What I also recommend is that you don't shy away from generic or lesser known brand names, and that if you want a specific piece of gear, and want to look at it before you buy, by all means you should do so.

I am not advocating that you burden any brick and mortar shop or local outfitter by asking tons of questions, using up their employee's time, and then not buying anything. What I am suggesting is that if I want a particular watch, but I want to get an idea of its size I see nothing wrong with walking in an REI and looking at it in their store, then walking out of the store and buying it elsewhere for less. That is comparison shopping my friends, and everyone does it in some fashion.

BTW, just because you buy something off the internet does NOT mean they are not a small struggling outfitter in some no name town. I have bought gear cheap from online outfitters that ARE small operations, and I have been pleased with my purchases.

I have purchased two stoves from Highland Gear online. From their website, I'd classify them as a small outfitter. http://www.highlandgear.com/crew.html

[Peaks]

If price is the reason for not buying from the local outfitter, then why not ask him if he can match the Campmor price? I know my local outfitter will.

[A-Train]

The Outfitter at Harpers Ferry is very active on ebay, so add that little twist to the equation. Sometimes you may be helping a small brick and mortat business while purchasing thru the internet.

An unfortunate situation in Port Clinton, where Vern runs a great little shop, Applachian Outfitters, right on the blue-blaze a couple hundred yards from the AT. It's a family small run business, and in came huge Cabellas, a year ago, just down the road from PC. It's too bad, because I'm sure they're cutting into his business. He was a great help and very friendly when we came in from the rain and needed some gear. Support the local guy!

[Skyline]

It sounds like we may all be close to being on the same page here.

I only posted the initial response because I know this and sites like it are used by new hikers and future hikers to form opinions about gear and attitudes about the Trail, which includes ethics to some degree. This is the time of year that many will be making final decisions about purchases for 2005, and if it even SOUNDED like it was good form to use, and then lose, a local outfitter, I wanted to sound an alarm bell. I think the point's been made, seconded, thirded...and now I'm goin' hikin'.

[C-Stepper]

...though, ethical debates weren't anticipated! :)

I have TWO REI's w/in 30 minutes of my house, but no family-owned or small outfitters here.

This is unfortunate for me...REI doesn't really stock much of what I read about in these forums pertaining to gear...they seem to cater more to the average heavier-weight backpacker (not that it's bad...but I realize I need to go lightweight to enjoy my trips).

I have to buy most gear that I read about on these forums "sight unseen". I did this with my backpack recently...after some chat on these forums, I bought a Granite Gear Vapor Trail back in September. Though REI lists this pack on its website, it is not in either Raleigh store. If I'm going to have to order it online, sight unseen, anyway, I may as well "price shop".

Not having any smaller outifitters makes it very difficult already to compare anything.

Thanks for the ideas...I have a Christmas list to complete!:clap

[Dances with Mice]

This story isn't worthy of a separate thread, so I thought I'd append it here.

First, I'm a juggler. It's a hobby, ok? Once I found some gel-filled squeeze balls in Wal-Mart's sporting section that were being sold as hand strength exercisers. They were the perfect size and weight for juggling and much cheaper than custom made juggling props so I bought all they had, maybe the last 9 from a display box of 12. A few weeks later I went back to the same store and they had restocked with two dozen more. A few friends at work that also juggle liked the balls and went to the same W-M and each bought 3 or more. Pretty soon that store had sold out again but they quickly re-stocked, this time with a full gross of gel-filled hand exercise balls! They even made more room on the shelves for them. I thought this was hilarious! A computer program somewhere must have noticed a run on the product and made adjustments in their stock. I suppose they thought they were supporting a local concentration of hand-strength fanatics. They probably haven't sold a single one since.

So what's that got to do with hiking?

I was at the REI store north of Atlanta today, mostly window shopping and picking up a few odds and ends. On my last hike my iodine tablet bottle's top had nearly rusted closed, so I thought I'd pick up a new bottle. I walked down the water treatment aisle but didn't find any.

"Damn!", I thought. "Must have missed them." So I walked the aisle again real slow. Still no iodine. Then I checked out the displays at both ends of the aisle. Not there. I searched through their food supply section. Nothing. Nor where they in the first aid/emergency supply area. Not in the stove or cooking/eating utensil sections either. Finally I looked in the displays near the registers. Nope. I finally went up to one of the employees and asked where they kept their iodine tablets.

He told me - and I am not making this up - that the store had quit stocking iodine tablets because the tablets were being used to make crank, aka speed or home brewed methamphetamine. I never would have thought of that.

So I stopped at my local Wal-Mart and bought some. Iodine, that is. Problem solved.

While I was there, I asked the sporting goods manager if there had been a run on iodine tablets. He hadn't noticed, it being the busy hunting season and all, and iodine tablets aren't a big ticket item. But now that I'd mentioned it, he had been getting more tablets to stock than usual and recently rearranged his display area to handle the extra tablets being sent to his store. He pointed out that the blister packs with just iodine had already sold out, only the packs with iodine and neutralizer were left.

So be aware that campers have new competetion for iodine tablets.

I didn't have the heart to ask why he had so many hand exercise balls.

[Skyline]

The#Is10 makes a good point. Not everyone is blessed with a dedicated, backpacking-knowledgeable outfitter in their local area, and the big chains--like REI and EMS--aren't usually on the cutting edge so many here seek. Terms like "ultralight," "gear than can multi-task," and "silnylon" rarely cross the lips of their employees.

[Alligator]

...

He told me - and I am not making this up - that the store had quit stocking iodine tablets because the tablets were being used to make crank, aka speed or home brewed methamphetamine. I never would have thought of that.

So I stopped at my local Wal-Mart and bought some. Iodine, that is. Problem solved.

While I was there, I asked the sporting goods manager if there had been a run on iodine tablets. He hadn't noticed, it being the busy hunting season and all, and iodine tablets aren't a big ticket item. But now that I'd mentioned it, he had been getting more tablets to stock than usual and recently rearranged his display area to handle the extra tablets being sent to his store. He pointed out that the blister packs with just iodine had already sold out, only the packs with iodine and neutralizer were left.

So be aware that campers have new competetion for iodine tablets.

I didn't have the heart to ask why he had so many hand exercise balls.
True about the iodine. Plus, at some stores, when someone purchases the combination of ingredients for meth, a warning comes up. Cold medicine is one of these. Buy too much product, the scanner makes an alert. I think the concentrations are much different between the tabs/Potable Aqua and Polar Pur. Some places keep the Polar Pur behind the counter now, so ask.

[MOWGLI]

. Some places keep the Polar Pur behind the counter now, so ask.
Yup, DWM is 100% correct. REI in Atlanta stopped selling Polar Pur because of the issue with Meth. Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me. That stuff is seriously nasty. The cops can't bust the labs fast enough up here in Chattanooga.

[c.coyle]

An unfortunate situation in Port Clinton, where Vern runs a great little shop, Applachian Outfitters, right on the blue-blaze a couple hundred yards from the AT. It's a family small run business, and in came huge Cabellas, a year ago, just down the road from PC. It's too bad, because I'm sure they're cutting into his business. He was a great help and very friendly when we came in from the rain and needed some gear. Support the local guy!

Don't know whether or not Cabelas is hurting AO in Port Clinton, but it sure seems like they cater to different types of customers.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.....Being of the penurious sort, myself I like to 'find' good gear and other stuff, for cheap, as much as the other guy does.....but I've come to find out, over the years, that some things are better bought at full face value than trying to cut corners. Hiking gear, in this age and time, is very technological. Light is right, but at the expense of mullah. The low tech gear (most of it from Campmor is like 2d echelon stuff)..i.e. heavier, and not as well constructed or as ergonomic as the better stuff. So, you pay a little more, get the good stuff, feel very satisfied, and support the local Outfitter Store, which is something that we all need to do. Not because we need to spend more money, but because they're out there providing a wonderful service for lots o' hikerfolks like you and me, and that service is spelled out in experience with certain products and gear that could be usefull to the majority of us. IMHO, buy your gear from like the good brothers at Dave's Mt Rogers Outfitters, and other supportive stores up and down the Trail. Remember when planning a Thru or LDH (Long Distance Hike), from S. to N. the first outfitter is in GA, at Neels Gap, and then up the Trail all the way to Maine, so start light, and buy right, and support our Trail Outfitters.

Besides, if I had to search Goodwills, and garage sales to find the better, light-weight high-tech gear, I'd be looking from now to dooms day. Yea, you might get lucky once in a while, but who's got the time? I gotta' hike, man. I always thought it was kinda' like not tipping after a good meal in a restaurant, to go into an outfitter and bleed them of time and info, just to turn and go to Campmor and buy a lesser product at a lesser price. I will say tho' that sometimes it's hard to resist buying from Sierra Trading Post, as they have pretty hot stuff, muchly reduced and I have bought from them. I still prefer, though, to get that 1st hand info, and check out the gear myself, before I purchase. Sometime you buy from the mail-order places, only to wish later, that you hadden't, for one reason or another. But it's choices. Good Shopping Guys.........KZ@

[Pencil Pusher]

Sport juggling, the true essence of the Illuminati.:D

Guiding companies and rental shops usually sell stuff on the cheap at the end of their respective seasons. Go to work for any of them and pro-deal like a kid in a candy store.

[Dances with Mice]

Sport juggling, the true essence of the Illuminati.:D

Hush, PP, sports juggling is no joking matter. You never know who could be monitoring these threads. They put the Evil Eye on our paper currency, you know. I thought it was ironic that REI was trying to be socially responsible in the products they sell while at the same time W-M was happily doubling or tripling their orders for the same product.

Part of the satisfaction I get from some of my gear is that I found it in unlikely locations, like the Dollar Store or Goodwill. As time has gone on, though, I carry less discount store gear but there's a reason. For example, I really liked my grease pot but after my wife bought me a nice Ti pot for my birthday I'd be a fool (on several different levels) if I left it at home and carried the greasepot. Those kind of upgrades are irreversible.