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View Full Version : When it comes to kids... How young is two young?????



Wise Old Owl
08-01-2010, 22:37
This is a tough post because we are all passionate about our children at the expense of others. My question is simple to open a dialogue about how you feel about exposing children in the great outdoors. If you don’t have kids please refrain from posting. Here is the subject for the thread.

This weekend I spent time with my dad bicycling the Heritage Trail (York Pa – MD. And the same trail in MD the 21 mile Northern Central Railroad (NCR) Trail, now known as the Torrey C. Brown Rail Trail. So we met at the campground and we were given a relatively nice site in the woods for our weekend for less than $100.

Within a few hours, couples surrounded us with very young children that ranged from 6 months to 8 years. Just getting up in the morning, nature’s noises were abominated by poor parenting and screams of unhappy kids from 70 feet away. I am not talking about a scraped knee… I am taking about a parent screaming at the top of her 300 pound lungs and braking the sound barrier – “Why won’t you listen to me?” “Stop – sit down now - “One. TWO THHHHREEE…” over a spilled soda on a dress of a 6 year old…. I am all for Assertive Parenting.., but this was every ten minutes with a wide variety of issues and way over the top. I didn’t have to watch, we heard every child scream from the pair of kids and Mom. It was just short of mental child abuse.

Now the surprise… I don’t care how you raise your kids. I have been there and I have raised a very difficult kid who turned out…. OK. We requested a new campsite and moved … it was the right thing to do… I am not paying $ to listen to adults misbehave in campgrounds.

What I learned from this is that some folk think that taking a child camping or hiking at young age with no experience (The Adult) is going to be good for them. In fact everyone in the vicinity was unhappy. With kids it is so important to start small 1-2 miles in the woods and walk behind enjoy the moment. My son took his Big Wheel around the trails of Valley Forge National Park long before we started camping. I did the AT at the age of ten, after doing several smaller trails, so how young is too young, and more importantly – How do you feel?

le loupe
08-01-2010, 22:50
I have two children 6 & 8. I think they behave fairly well. However, I'm pretty sure they would fight, run around, scream and play from the time they got up. Nonetheless, much of what you complain about sounds like poor parenting or the result of a lifetime of such being their only discipline.

On the otherhand you should understand what your getting into. If you go to a campground where Harry Fatass and his wife Beulah can drive up in their SUV you are going to be subjected to the outdoor experience as percieved by the lowest common denominator.

If you want to enjoy nature in some idyllic repose, you'd better go somewhere no one else is.

JAK
08-01-2010, 22:53
I think kids belong in the woods at all ages, basically from birth on. Campgrounds might be another matter. That gets pretty sketchy. The problem there sounds like its it too crowded, and too many screaming kids is just a part of that. When I've gone hiking with my daughter, from age 3 on up, the only time I got too much noise and issues was when we brought other kids and parents along, but it was still worth it because she doesn't have any siblings so she needed to scrap it out with other kids now and then. That is manageable with a small gaggle but I think it would get out of control and tiring real fast in a crowded campground with several other gaggles going on. Still worth doing probably, once in a while, but without your own kids involved there would be nothing gained for serious pain. I think when camping without kids, or with just one or two but with quiet camping in mind, you gotta go back country or off season.

JAK
08-01-2010, 22:58
The worst thing I've encountered at crowded campgrounds is not the screaming kids though, but the noising drinking and lound music of adults after dark. That's the main think I try to avoid when I go to a campground, unless I want to join in. I think its important to know what sort of campground it is and what to expect. Not much fun telling ghost stories at a drunken beer fest.

The Solemates
08-01-2010, 23:19
i don't understand what you expected. you were in a campground. we take our kids camping all the time. we rarely stay in campgrounds. we just went about 5-6 weeks ago, saw that the campground was packed (a most unpleasant experience, just like you described), and moved on. we enjoyed a peaceful 3 day trip by the river, just a 30 minute trail walk from the established campground. i even toted stuff into our site in a big tupperware container...so it was like being in the campground, with all the amenties, sans people.

our daughter had been camping in 8 different states with multi-night trips before she was a year old. She's now 3 and has been to over 30 states camping. we first took her at 6 weeks to mount rogers. at 10 weeks we did an early winter trip to the adirondaks with her. our 9-month old son also goes now...albeit it is a little harder with him. he thinks leaves are for rolling in and dirt is for eating.:-?

Feral Bill
08-02-2010, 01:06
I did the AT at the age of ten, after doing several smaller trails, so how young is too young, and more importantly – How do you feel?

You did the whole AT at ten? I do not remember this from previous posts. Am I misunderstanding?

In any event, the people you encountered are going to be clods with or without children of any age. I expect most Whiteblazers with kids have started them early and are good neighbors in the woods. I hope my kids are, now that they are off on their own, camping-wise.

When you mentioned people with no experience dragging their kids out and making it miserable for themselves and all around them I believe the key is inexperience. Of course, those people are unaware of their own limitations.

Yeah, it's a puzzler.

jrwiesz
08-02-2010, 05:24
...When you mentioned people with no experience dragging their kids out and making it miserable for themselves and all around them I believe the key is inexperience. Of course, those people are unaware of their own limitations.

Yeah, it's a puzzler.


"inexperience", and I believe, some of it is this, "entitlement" mentality of many today.
"If I'm having a rough day with the kids, everybody is going to also."

In fact this situation, the OP describes, sounds more like ignorance than inexperience, most likely a combination of both.

Reminds me of the phrase Ron White uses in his act. "You can't cure stupid".:-?

Situations like these are one reason why most of us head for the backcountry. :sun

bloodmountainman
08-02-2010, 06:24
Public and State Park campgrounds are the places families with small children, get their outdoor experience.
That Big Wheel around Valley Forge probably was annoying to someone!
If you decide to camp in a public campground , you have to deal with the public......kids and all.

russb
08-02-2010, 06:56
Your experience was not a reflection of the children's ages, but the behavior of the adults. My first outdoors trip was a canoe trip in the Adirondacks at the ripe old age of 8 months.

Wise Old Owl
08-02-2010, 08:40
Public and State Park campgrounds are the places families with small children, get their outdoor experience.
That Big Wheel around Valley Forge probably was annoying to someone!
If you decide to camp in a public campground , you have to deal with the public......kids and all.

Most of the time the public is fine.... But I keep running into this and think I won't say anything.... I wish I could drop by and say "I have a neat book for you and its less than a 100 pages.

It's called Assertive Discipline for Adults - Perhaps you could benefit from it.":welcome

Wise Old Owl
08-02-2010, 08:51
The worst thing I've encountered at crowded campgrounds is not the screaming kids though, but the noising drinking and lound music of adults after dark. That's the main think I try to avoid when I go to a campground, unless I want to join in. I think its important to know what sort of campground it is and what to expect. Not much fun telling ghost stories at a drunken beer fest.

We (My dad & I) experienced that in Elk Neck State Park a few years back in Maryland. A group of teens, about five were hootin, and hollarin till 2am. It was unofficial white lightening party. Anyway - my unabashed dad (70 something) had enough, stormed over there and yelled at them at two in the morning.

The next morning at 7am the State Troopers & Park personel were there and making arrrests. MD since changed the parks rules on alcohol and today its dry.

coyote13
08-02-2010, 09:28
Unfortunately rude behavior by adults in campgrounds will always be there.I have been more troubled by drunk ,loud "grownups' than I have ever been by the children with them.
As far as trail hiking I can only go with my experience with my son and say at 5 years old 2 miles was pretty much the "this is fun" limit. We added about a mile or so a year until at 10 he likes to walk all day,albeit at a slower pace than an adult (shorter stride?)

Rain Man
08-02-2010, 10:28
Seems to me largely an issue of whose ox is being gored. Poor parenting, alcohol (drug) abuse, or outright illegal conduct (guns, dogs not leashed, "stealth" camping, lying about thru-hiker status, etc), abusing hiker services and privileges, affect victims differently. It's take-your-pick, "hike your own hike," for whether one or another bothers you ... or gets rationalized away.

My sympathies to you for the unfortunate experience you and your father had with these particular cretins.

Rain Man

.

jersey joe
08-02-2010, 11:35
I don't think a kid can be too young to take camping really. Also, a campground is a good place for inexperienced parents to learn about how to camp. More experienced campers who want to get away from people can find more isolated places to camp...or take up backpacking and hike further into the woods.

Teeah3612
08-02-2010, 12:32
Sounds like the parents were the problem, not the kids. I had my boys out from the time they were born and they did fine. They love the outdoors and my 22 still hikes with me.

flemdawg1
08-02-2010, 12:59
Like other people have said, the problem is stupid parents and the fact you picked a campground instead of the backcountry. I've been camping and hiking with my 3 kids since they were all in diapers. They are allowed some leeway to play/be kids in the campgrounds, in the woods they know to be respectfully quiet (mostly for the benefit of potentially seeing wildlife).

turtle fast
08-02-2010, 14:52
Campgrounds are the destination spots for families. I have been to places where the parents have NO idea of how to camp with a brand new Walmart family tent and the invariable arguing of how to set it up. Those folks are trying to give their kids an expierience. HOWEVER, the biggest problem I have had was with adults drinking too much and being loud and being an a$$ getting into drunken verbal exchanges or familial fights.

couscous
08-02-2010, 15:30
… I am taking about a parent screaming at the top of her 300 pound lungs and braking the sound barrier – “Why won’t you listen to me?” “Stop – sit down now - “One. TWO THHHHREEE…”

Reminds me of some neighbors I lived beside a couple decades ago. :eek:
If you want to avoid yelling adults and screaming kids you pretty much have to live in the country (as I do now) and avoid stores, campgrounds and any other place that is easily accessible. I took my kids camping at a young age (under 7), but I didn't take them backpacking until they were about 12. I don't think there is a "too young" age since it depends so much on both the child and the parent(s).

SMSP
08-02-2010, 15:38
I have a 3 year-old daughter. My first attempt to introduce her to a trail didnt go so well. I picked a 1/2 male loop trail in a local NF campground. We were there just for a day trip. The trail turned out too much for her because of all the woods and closeness of the bushes and branches, etc… I ended up having to carry her on my shoulders mostly. That expereince wasnt a total waste though, but just not the ideal starter for us.

The next attempt went very well. We went to another local NF campground for a few hours. We spent our time just walking around the campground and the trees. There was a small lake, which we walked around and threw pine cones in the water. There was a section of trail with small foot bridges low to the ground. She really enjoyed this experience. I made a small fire with pine cones, we had lunch. One of those lunchables for her and an MRE entree for me.

I think 'baby steps' are the way to go for us. Also, I built a simple fire ring in my backyard. So we have campfires in the backyard from time to time. She really enjoys roasting marshmallows and making S'mores. The next experience is to go back to the local NF campground, and spend the day there with a campfire in the afternoon. And then, eventually, doing an overnighter there as well.

Parenting skills definitely have a factor in my experience and in the experience of others.

SMSP

weary
08-02-2010, 15:39
All my kids were camping by age 1, and backpacking by age 3. No one complained about there actions -- at least to my face.

We chose campgrounds with widely separated campsites, or campgrounds where family use was common and expected.

The key to successful outings with kids, I believe, is to allow the kids to set the pace and the activities. That meant half mile hours were common. But it made for happy excursions.

Our aim was not miles, but experience in the outdoors for all of us.

Thus my six year old grandson made it almost to the summit of Katahdin last month. With only a quarter of a mile of mostly gentle uphills left to do, he announced his feet were tired. His Dad complied and they returned to the bunk house at Chimney Pond, where Matt announced, "I'll try again when I'm 10." It's my guess that he'll probably attempt another summit next year.

Matt did better than I did. I quit at the base of the Saddle headwall. While chatting at Chimney Pond the ranger didn't boost my ego. He observed, "an eighty-nine year old made it to the top last week."

Weary

TexasEd
08-02-2010, 18:30
Car based camping and short hikes 3-9
Overnight hikes 10-12
Multi-night hikes 13 & up
Through hike on S+AT after they're old enough to vote

soulrebel
08-02-2010, 18:40
Ya know Human beings used to be born in the woods, a lot of them come out in less safe places than a forest nowadays.

I have chitrens and the second one started backpacking the AT at 13 days of age. At 14 days of age he finished his thru-hike on Katahdin. He was carrying his older sister at the time causing him to to take an extra day. His trailname is NRGcrisis. His sister is Longwayfromhome and the lil brother is known as stimulusPKG. All of them can easily pound a Yuengling in a can. They're working on Talls (PBR) but they have yet a ways to go. If you meet them be kind it is forgiving.

Is it tired yet?

I think better questions are.
1) When do you teach a children how to use a knife and machete?
2) When do you teach them how to build fires? w/ sticks, flint, matches, lighters?
3) How do you teach them their place and relation in the world and how their modern world is connected to the true reality of Nature?
4) What do you tell them about hiker trash? What do you tell them about the people that jumped out of the REI catalog?

Just thought I'd help expand the horizons...

Mrs Baggins
08-02-2010, 19:10
We have two kids- now grown adults. No matter where we were - campgrounds, stores, churches, restaurants, any public setting - if they started screaming we immediately removed them from the area. One of us took the screamer and walked away, as far away as we could get. We NEVER expected people to "put up with it, they're kids." That's so arrogant and thoughtless. It's not "cute" "funny" "expected" or anything else. Even on board airlines (and they flew a lot!) we restrained them as much as possible, kept a bottle going, pacifier, Benadryl, food, whatever it took. It was NOT the other passengers obligation to "understand." It's obnoxious and so are the adults who allow it. I was in a grocery store today. A toddler was acting up in the cart. The mother, in the loudest voice she could manage without screaming demanded the child "take a deep breath and count to 10" and then the two of them counted...as loud as they could. Please. If you are going to try to argue that the child might have behavioral problems that require that kind of response, then I'm going tell you "don't bring them out in public." Period. Your kid's problem is NOT my problem and I am NOT required to be subjected to it. Heartless? Nope. Brutally honest and THAT'S what no one wants anymore. They want "sympathy" "tolerance" "patience" and more psycho babble. My kids (now 28 and 23) are polite, thoughtful, considerate, and horrified by the behavior allowed of kids in public places today.

I ended up in the check out line behind this same mother. She was on her cell phone having a nice loud conversation and ignoring the cashier, and me as she wouldn't move forward when it was time for her to go.

fredmugs
08-03-2010, 06:52
You can pretty much expect to find a white trash element at any campground you go to. You also have to realize that for a lot of them this is the highlight of their year. We stayed at some place in PA during a section hike that should have been called Joe Dirt campground.

DavidNH
08-03-2010, 09:07
Good for you Weary for getting your kids into then outdoors early on. Love of the outdoors is one of the greatest gifts a parent can give. Full disclosure: I don't have kids but my love of the outdoors is definitely a gift from my parents.

One question though...

How HOW does one get past all the hard stuff, and arrive to within less than a quarter mile of easy walking of the summit of Katahdin and still turn around?
Weary you could probably see it, the view just over the bend..you where almost there. And your kid said he was tired and you turned around??? Were I in your shoes I'd have prodded him just a bit to the summit. Course I speak here as a bachelor without kids. But you were SO close?!

David

weary
08-03-2010, 11:14
Good for you Weary for getting your kids into then outdoors early on. Love of the outdoors is one of the greatest gifts a parent can give. Full disclosure: I don't have kids but my love of the outdoors is definitely a gift from my parents.

One question though...

How HOW does one get past all the hard stuff, and arrive to within less than a quarter mile of easy walking of the summit of Katahdin and still turn around?
Weary you could probably see it, the view just over the bend..you where almost there. And your kid said he was tired and you turned around??? Were I in your shoes I'd have prodded him just a bit to the summit. Course I speak here as a bachelor without kids. But you were SO close?!

David
My son made the summit at age 5, and made me the example of the Baxter State Park Trustees for years thereafter as their prime example of irresponsible parenting. The rules said one has to be six.

The example I posted recently involved a grandson and his dad, who wanted his son to emulate his early hiking experiences.

Given the hassles I had created 35 years earlier I advised strongly against his son even making the attempt. His son had never climbed a mountain before and I thought Katahdin should not be his first attempt. The agreement was that they would turn back at the first sign of resistance. Which they did, and rightly so, I believe.

My rule from the beginning of parenthood has been to let the kids set the agenda when hiking and backpacking. Except when darkness or storms threatened to interfere, I let them hike and backpack as fast and as long as they felt comfortable doing, especially when they were very young. They now recipricate. At 81, they now let me stop whenever I want, which on that trip was at the base of the Saddle headwall.

The Dad in this excursion had first backpacked the 3.5 miles to Chimney Pond at age 3 years, three months. It took six hours, but aside from an occasional boost over a big rock, he walked the whole distance.

Weary

Wise Old Owl
08-04-2010, 16:46
8/2/2010 5:22:00 PM
Investigators presume lost boy, 2, dead
Investigators shift from rescue to recovery mode
http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/83883a.jpgJon Hutchinson/Special to the Courier
Lt. Tom Boelts of the Yavapai Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigation Bureau and Sheriff Steve Waugh update reporters on missing 2-year old Sylar Newton.By JON HUTCHINSON
Special to the Courier

CAMP VERDE - It's becoming ever more frustrating for the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office (http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/sheriff.aspx) but officials say finding Sylar Newton continues to be the No. 1 priority.

Manpower, technology and law enforcement expertise has not been enough so far to locate the child who vanished while sleeping beside his custodial mother in a tent at the Beaver Creek Campground more than a week ago.

After nine days of searching, Sheriff Steve Waugh and two leaders of his investigative team faced a sea of reporters Monday afternoon to update the process.

The search was scaled back Saturday to what Search Commander Sgt. Jeff Newnum calls a "limited continuous search. It will go on as long as we have areas to search."

Lt. Tom Boelts of the Criminal Investigation Bureau said, "We are confident that there is no body in the search area" and "we believe the child was taken from the camp site and is no longer alive. We are now in a recovery mode."

The campground host called 911 about 3 a.m. Sunday, July 25. When search crews arrived, campers had already begun searching for the child. The "Hasty Team" was brought in first to begin combing the campground.

Sheriff Waugh said, "A 2-year-old has no survival skills. When they are hungry, they cry. When their diaper is dirty, they cry. It's a rugged area and we thought we would hear him crying for those needs. That did not happen."

The family has been cooperative during interviews, Waugh said, but officials have yet to complete analyzing polygraph interviews. Christina Priem is adopting the child. She was with her mother, and three other children.

Boelts would not identify specific persons of interest: "We have not ruled anyone in or out."

The Sheriff's Office has canvassed sex offenders in the Verde Valley and combed through 200 tons of garbage taken from the campground at the Grey Wolf landfill.

There still are video camera films to examine from surrounding stores and businesses.

Behavior analysts from Utah and experts from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children have advised detectives on a child's movements, which would have been limited to less than a mile radius around the camp.

Boelts said the agency has received numerous tips. "We have the usual psychic tips. We have had tips from the National Center, that I would rather not go into. We have also had tips reference Internet activity."

The Child Abduction Rapid Deployment Team with manpower from Boston, San Francisco, New Jersey and Phoenix have assisted in the search. Horses were brought from Coconino County. Search crews had access to sonar equipment from Pima County. They checked water pools, used cameras in wells and even checked vault toilets.

Newnum said to date, 380 search personnel have invested 4,109 hours over the past eight days and searched 8.5 square miles, working with lines of 15 people one arm length apart. If there were clues, "we would not have missed them," he said.

"It's heartbreaking," Sgt. Newnum said. Many of the searchers have children as well. "We fell in love with Sylar even though we never met him.

"I have four kids at home and you go home and hug your kids. Nobody wanted to stop."

Even so, the search and the investigation continued as reporters were briefed. The campground has now reopened, with posters everywhere asking visitors to help find the missing 2-year-old from Flagstaff.

sbhikes
08-04-2010, 17:06
I'll bet the noise and fighting of that family is the same when they are at home. I bet they cause problems when they go out to eat or to the movies, too. The problem isn't the children's ages, it's the family and parents.

I don't think there is an age limit for being in the outdoors, but I do think that parents have to be able to recognize when it's time to go home.