View Full Version : Some hikers.....
Lion King
09-03-2010, 10:57
What the hell is wrong with some people?
If you hiked from GA to NH then your concern and kinship with others should be there, and this to me showed some horrifically self serving ‘who cares’ attitude toward a person who could have been lost, injured, dead, anything and not one of these people…two of which started the slack pack with her, never mentioned to anyone that she was missing.
And to be honest, Ive seen the WORST bunch of hikers EVER this year…
(Sure, they’re some good ones too, but jesus…)
Packrat and I got packed and headed out from different directions at 1 a.m.
I didn’t get back till 3 the next afternoon as I hiked the Benton, Long Pond, Mud pond and other trails that lead away from the summit and back searching.
She decided to stay on the mountain with no bag, no light, nothing and she was fine in the morning, but it bothers me that the hikers were watching TV or in their tents and not a single person made an effort to find this women, with the exception of one person mentioning it to Gary early in the afternoon, (And even then, no on mentioned she hadn’t made it back) but after that…nothing.
Makes me sick to my stomach that people don’t care.
She did make it down fine, but she could have been in trouble and if I hadn’t told one guy he might be disturbing people with the TV loud at midnight, he responded…”Nobodies in the hostel, the woman upstairs never came back…” as if he were talking about a lost puppy…
That is the kind of attitudes that people, in previous years, has long since lost…something is wrong with people, and they ALL USE THEIR damn cell phones on the trail now too…but that’s a different thread
I've seen this attitude not just in thru-hikers, but outdoors people in general.
On a hike a few years back, some people were late getting down the mountain. Part of the group basically said "We are hungry and it is almost happy hour" and they took off. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!!!
A few of us stuck around (and hiked up the trail) to see what happened. Felt like the right thing to do. (They were OK..if tired).
Many people into the outdoors seem to come from affluent backgrounds and have a huge sense of entitlement.
Spills over into other things in life, too.
Sad to say.
Off my soap box now.
RE: Cell Phones
Indeed. A different thread...but more of societal shift. Cell phones aren't for emergencies, but a way for people to be connected 24/7. But yeah, that's a different thread. :)
rambunny
09-03-2010, 12:16
Wow. I have been struggling with "am i just old school" or are things & hikers really differant?I feel that the AT itself and the ability and freedom to hike it is an unbelieveable privalage,a gift, and should be treated as such. When a hiker doesn't know who Del Doc, Benton McKye,Dorthy Laker,Earl Shaffer or what is the CCC,but knows where the next party is (cell phone) and the GPS coordinates-there is something wrong here. Please don't bring Babylon to Heaven. Thank you i will now step down from my soap box.
Graywolf
09-03-2010, 13:06
Watching TV in a tent?? I thought we went hiking to get away from all that.
But really!! I too have seen it. With internet, email, smart phones, cell phones, etc, people in general have become very distant from others around them. Unless they are doing something "techie" they seem the world around them is not apart of them..
One reason I have limited myself to "tech" and when I am out, I leave it at home. We should always be alert of not only of ourselves but others around us when we are out there.. Thats my opinion..
Old Hiker
09-03-2010, 13:23
Lion King,
A quick question and a comment (or two):
Question: Did no one call 911 and report this?
Comment: I'm of the opinion that I can't do much in the way of searching, as I haven't been trained. If all the hikers went off to look for someone who may or may not be missing, with no coordination, etc., I think more of them would have been lost, with that many MORE problems. Better in my opinion to dail 911 and explain the situation.
Still - not to excuse the uncaring attitudes, maybe everyone was thinking that someone else was going to do something about it.
Not trying to pick a fight - just trying to comment.
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2010, 13:45
From my perspective this has a lot to do with invasive technologies -- I don't say that as someone who is anti-technology, on the contrary I'm pro-technology.
However, we have to admit that it changes us and those changes will be seen on the trail, even if the technology is left at home. In many respects technology does breed a certain narcissism and it definitely causes us to lose our understanding in the virtue of patience.
I wonder if does have alot to do with technology, and the way that modern information technology is distracting us, and even rewiring us. I am note sure that the problem is limited to younger generations. I find myself overly distracted on many occassions, even when something somewhat urgent comes up in the 'real world'. The problem too is that the lines between 'real world' and 'virtual world' or whatever you wish to call it are getting rather fuzzy, or perhaps have always been fuzzy.
What should demand our attention - this very instant?
It's a very complex question. Technology makes it even more complex.
max patch
09-03-2010, 13:53
Based on the information given the first level of criticism can only be directed toward the hiker that obviously went off unprepared.
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2010, 13:57
Yes it's not just the younger generation. I feel pressured from technology all the time, some obvious other not so. One obvious distraction is my email account and keeping it cleaned and organized. And it is a little bit of an issue/concern when I go on a trip and the thought of how my email box looks when I get back home. But (knock on wood) I will never take something on a trip in order to manage my emails, but many don't see that as an option.
it is sad that so many of you are missing the point. lion king i agree completely. while i think what she did was supremely irresponsible, the fact that not one person other than yourself was concerned is very typical of younger people nowadays. it is called being a self-centered **** ass. it comes from their raising, or more specifically, their lack thereof.
malowitz
09-03-2010, 14:19
I'm going to chime in differently. By the time a hiker has reached NH, the "lost" hiker should be able to survive the night. There are so many people on the trail, that if you were injured, I can't imagine it being more than 12 hours before someone came by who could help/notify others if possible. If someone went off trail for a while and was injured, you're not going to find them in any timely manner anyway.
When I hiked my full day - I wouldn't be that much of a hiker to go back out to chase anyone down. When I had a big day over the Baldplates, and realized I'd left my wallet, cellphone, and guidebook at a shelter, I only had the mojo to attempt to go back 1 mile. Ended up having to do it the next morning. I don't think the other slack packers would have been of much use. I also don't night hike.
Lion King -I met you a couple of times this year, hope I can stay on the "good" hiker list even though I disagree w/you on this one.
This also has nothing to do with technology. I'll comment on how tech enhanced my hike in some other thread.
- Shorts GA-ME 2010
People don't want to admit that the trail is filling up with jackass's.
jersey joe
09-03-2010, 14:22
the fact that not one person other than yourself was concerned is very typical of younger people nowadays. it is called being a self-centered **** ass. it comes from their raising, or more specifically, their lack thereof.
I don't buy that younger people nowadays are any different than younger people in any generation. There are plenty of self centered young people now, but there have always been. I guess as we get older, it just is more apparent to us.
I don't know what the deal is with this woman, maybe I missed a different thread. Did she say she was coming back to the hostel? Lion King certainly did do a noble thing by going to look for her after he determined she might be in trouble.
As for technology, I am probably in the minority, but I think it is fantastic that certain technologies exist and can be taken into the back country. If I could have posted my journal nightly for family and friends, sort of how galilee man did, I would have done so 8 years ago on my thru hike. I guess it is just a matter of respecting others and not letting your technology interrupt terribly with other people who are enjoying the outdoors.
max patch
09-03-2010, 14:25
This issue has nothing to do with "technology".
I wonder also though kanga if it is somewhat of a coping mechanism or something. I am not excusing the behaviour, but what would we be like if we grew up with all the technology around us today? I am not sure that they are making unethical or immoral decisions from the signals they are receiving. I think the problem is that they are not getting the signals from the real world, the way we are. I am not even sure I am getting signals from the real world the way I should be, the way I used to.
What signals are we getting? Even before cell phones and iphones and the internet, was our generation already too distracted compared to previous generations? What detrimental impact has television had on us? What about cars, and shopping malls? Gowing up in schools vs growing up on farms?
What is a crisis? Do we respond differently depending on where the information is coming from? Never mind that a hiker is missing, I am tweeting $2 to haitian quake victims. Gotta go. Hurricane coming. I saw it on CNN.
I am at a university, so I don't know how the working world has changed in the past 10 years, but is it just me, or are alot of people making themselves less accessible these days?
jeepcachr
09-03-2010, 14:32
How long should someone be missing before you report them lost? If your not sure when they left, where they were going or when they were supposed to be back what are you going to tell 911?
Who's worse the people that didn't notice or care that she didn't get back or her for staying out?
Many here will disagree, but if you hike "with" a buddy - ( or someone heading your direction who will be aware of your absence - whether a broken ankle or you don't show up all night) - even if it's just the person you are hiking with that day, can make a difference. Doesn't have to be the whole hike, but hiking can be like swimming, a solo sport for the individual, but much safer with someone knowing your general whereabouts. ( signing registers falls into this train of thought as well I suppose if someone goes missing).
Sorry this happened to your friend Lion King, glad it turned out OK and not into a SAR.
I'm not sure I understand what happened. Was Lion King searching all the side trails for this lady all night while her friends were watching TV in a hostel? Is that what happened?
Why did she not come down a few minutes or an hour after her friends? Why did she stay up there without gear? Were they really a group that was hiking together?
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2010, 14:39
As for technology, I am probably in the minority...
It appears you're in the majority:D
jersey joe
09-03-2010, 14:40
Many here will disagree, but if you hike "with" a buddy - ( or someone heading your direction who will be aware of your absence - whether a broken ankle or you don't show up all night) - even if it's just the person you are hiking with that day, can make a difference. Doesn't have to be the whole hike, but hiking can be like swimming, a solo sport for the individual, but much safer with someone knowing your general whereabouts.
I completely agree with this and the swimming analogy is right on. I have said it before, hiking solo can be very dangerous. It is more dangerous than hiking without a map by far. The buddy system improves your odds of surviving a bad situation immensely.
IronGutsTommy
09-03-2010, 14:40
kinda on both sides of this fence.. she shouldnt be hiking any distance unprepared, just bc u plan to hike from a to b doesnt mean youll make it to b unfettered. there is also the fact that the uncaring hikers had probably hiked all day as well and made sure their entire party came in before settling into a tech stupor, which is their right to do so.
On the other hand, Id get out of my tent in the middle of the night if assistance was needed.. there is kinda a hiker code that should be observed. but just because lots of people hike the trail doesnt mean u agree to undertake a responsibility to anyone other than yourself or your small party. there are rangers and other authorities for that purpose. in any case id be out there.. but i wouldnt look down on someone who chose not to
This issue has nothing to do with "technology".I would agree with you in a sense, that it is inherently about information, and how we learn to receive it and process it, and not so much about the medium by which we receive it. People today are increasingly learning from people other than their parents, and other their teachers and coaches at their schools and such. That is in part because of technology, but technology itself is not the problem. So who are they learning from, and what are they learning? Who did we learn from? What did we learn? What was the medium? How did it change when we entered the working world? How has it changed since?
I do think the world is increasingly distracted and misguided. I just don't think it is only the younger gernerations that are getting messed up. What is happening to them might just be more obvious to us, but it has been happening to us too, and has been happening all along.
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2010, 14:47
I would agree with you in a sense, that it is inherently about information, and how we learn to receive it and process it, and not so much about the medium by which we receive it. People today are increasingly learning from people other than their parents, and other their teachers and coaches at their schools and such. That is in part because of technology, but technology itself is not the problem. So who are they learning from, and what are they learning? Who did we learn from? What did we learn? What was the medium? How did it change when we entered the working world? How has it changed since?
I do think the world is increasingly distracted and misguided. I just don't think it is only the younger gernerations that are getting messed up. What is happening to them might just be more obvious to us, but it has been happening to us too, and has been happening all along.
I agree with you JAK, but I probably shouldn't of introduced the "technology" thing....I don't know, now I'm completly confused...I guess sometimes the root of a problem is best left in a box.
IronGutsTommy
09-03-2010, 14:57
i thought the issue was people helping or not helping fellow hikers, not technology.. after all we are all on computers and using the internet at this very moment.
It would be interesting to get Marshall McLuhan's take on all this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8J6uEUXlR0
It's exactly like what McLuhan said about mini skirts when they came out.
"Some people think the end is in sight." ;)
earlyriser26
09-03-2010, 15:15
Yeah, stuff like this happens, but you have to go back out and let someone know. I had a similar experience with a hiker that was with our group and was in front on the last day of a hike. We got to town and he was not there. Huh? how could we have passed him? Well, the others said he would turn up, but after waiting 3 hours I put on my head lamp and headed back out. It was the last thing I wanted to do, but you are not 3 hours late when you are in front without something very bad happening. I found him a short time later (he had the brilliant idea of cutting cross country to get to town sooner and did not tell anyone). Ah, short-cuts....
That's all well and good if you don't mind falling behind on the latest world news, emails, and social networking.
Some of us have responsibilities. ;)
It must be clearly understood, the Good Samaritan didn't have a Blackberry.
It would be interesting to get Marshall McLuhan's take on all this.
Or even Ray Bradbury. One way to keep people from having good information is to bury it in an avalanch of trivial information.
Lion King--sorry this happened but thanks for doing the right thing.
I have a family full of people of entitlement. These narcisists get uncomfortable real fast without a cell phone in their hands and someone to return their text message immediatly if not sooner. Their vocabulary, other than text contractions, is so small that they can hardy chat about the weather with me. But they can program my phone and sort out my computer so I think I will keep them, for now.
I think the lack of what we see as common human decency is caused in part by modern technology and the way we use it. But we need to sort symptoms from disease. We need to find a way to keep people kind to each other. The real question is, how do we keep our technology from reprograming our brains and dehumanizing us?
To paraphrase: "If you can burn a book, you can kill a person", Bradbury, Farenheit 451. If you can click delete, you can pull a trigger.
Even all of us together are only one small voice crying in the wilderness, and we are about to be buried in an avalance of bytes of information.
An old fellow worker said it best after a hard day at The Home Depot -
Dan, people suck!
And so it is.
Some suck a little less. :)
Very well put.
One logical extension of all this is that we need to stay connected to nature as much as possible in order to maintain our humanity, and that knowing this, we have a moral obligation to do so. If we allow ourselves to become too weak and distracted to react appropriately and effectively when a crisis presents itself, we cannot use this inability as an excuse. It seems ironic that people that are out in contact with nature are behaving as though they were not, but are they really in contact? Or perhaps it is only through contact with nature, even in a somewhat controlled environment as the AT, that these weaknesses is ability and awareness and character present themselves most clearly.
"Cane, where is your brother Abel?"
"Just a second. Someone is wrong on the Internet."
Graywolf
09-03-2010, 16:36
I see the point of un-caring attitudes here. And no, I dont think this thread is about technology. It was only used as an example. I remember some years ago when I was driving to the store, I saw an elderly woman lying on the side walk. No one was stopping to help her. They just kept going about their business even though it was clear this woman was in trouble. I immediately pulled over and helped her. What was even more disturbing was when I stopped to help her, people were yellin out their car windows as they pass, obsinities to both the elderly lady and myself. It really pissed me off for a few days of how people ca be so insensitive to others..
By the way, she passed out due to heat exhaustion walking home from the store. She was ok after the ambulance arrived..
Very well put.
One logical extension of all this is that we need to stay connected to nature as much as possible in order to maintain our humanity, and that knowing this, we have a moral obligation to do so. If we allow ourselves to become too weak and distracted to react appropriately and effectively when a crisis presents itself, we cannot use this inability as an excuse. It seems ironic that people that are out in contact with nature are behaving as though they were not, but are they really in contact? Or perhaps it is only through contact with nature, even in a somewhat controlled environment as the AT, that these weaknesses is ability and awareness and character present themselves most clearly.
Sounds like a good premise for all of life. In my church we have a lot of people, but do we have a lot of "church" in those people?
It's hard not to judge, but most worthwhile things in life are difficult.
The analogy above is nature to church. :)
Nature doesn't make bad people better. It just makes them happy as long as they're in it, and, usually, on their terms.
Old Hiker
09-03-2010, 16:50
An old fellow worker said it best after a hard day at The Home Depot -
Dan, people suck!
And so it is.
Some suck a little less. :)
God is great, beer (or cheese, or peanut butter, or dark chocolate or whatever) is good, people are crazy.
Danielsen
09-03-2010, 17:06
I see the point of un-caring attitudes here. And no, I dont think this thread is about technology. It was only used as an example. I remember some years ago when I was driving to the store, I saw an elderly woman lying on the side walk. No one was stopping to help her. They just kept going about their business even though it was clear this woman was in trouble. I immediately pulled over and helped her. What was even more disturbing was when I stopped to help her, people were yellin out their car windows as they pass, obsinities to both the elderly lady and myself. It really pissed me off for a few days of how people ca be so insensitive to others..
By the way, she passed out due to heat exhaustion walking home from the store. She was ok after the ambulance arrived..
On the topic of technology altering people's behavior negatively, passers-by in cars are consistently the rudest people I ever encounter. Shouting obscenities at random strangers, throwing objects, with no apparent motive at myself and others I've observed (I spend a lot of time being a pedestrian, so I get to observe this a LOT). I suspect it's sort of like the internet, in that there's a feeling of anonymity in the fact that you'll be 100 feet away before your victim can react to your words. Gone in a flash.
I feel that those who think the current generation is more or less rude or callous than previous generations have, perhaps, a romanticized view of the past. The human race has always produced copious quantities of d-bags. Perhaps some generations more than others, and different generations of course have different ways of expressing it (varying with the march of technology, often), but the jerks are there nonetheless. It's not like anyone is innocent of the urges and inclinations, moral behavior is all about controlling those urges and choosing positive actions instead.
Obviously, the fact that there have always been plenty of jerks does not in any way excuse anyone for their actions. Everyone has a choice. I firmly believe that blame for a person's actions must be placed with that individual, not with technology or anything else. Yes, technology and social pressures may incline a person to act one way or another, but the final decision of the action they take is ultimately theirs and theirs alone.
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2010, 18:55
On the topic of technology altering people's behavior negatively, passers-by in cars are consistently the rudest people I ever encounter. Shouting obscenities at random strangers, throwing objects, with no apparent motive at myself and others I've observed (I spend a lot of time being a pedestrian, so I get to observe this a LOT). I suspect it's sort of like the internet, in that there's a feeling of anonymity in the fact that you'll be 100 feet away before your victim can react to your words. Gone in a flash.
Anonymity, that’s what it is, if you spend enough time cycling on roadways you’ll get use to the screaming, it’s the objects thrown at you that's hard to ignore.
I feel that those who think the current generation is more or less rude or callous than previous generations have, perhaps, a romanticized view of the past. The human race has always produced copious quantities of d-bags. Perhaps some generations more than others, and different generations of course have different ways of expressing it (varying with the march of technology, often), but the jerks are there nonetheless. It's not like anyone is innocent of the urges and inclinations, moral behavior is all about controlling those urges and choosing positive actions instead.
True, there have been cultures of peoples in history that were lacking in compassion. And that was primarily because of the culture and culture is a very large umbrella. And our culture by-and-large with all it's faults is pretty damn good in comparison to so many, not only historically but also in today's world. And then there will always be just simply screwed up people and no amount of "nurture" will change that.
Obviously, the fact that there have always been plenty of jerks does not in any way excuse anyone for their actions. Everyone has a choice. I firmly believe that blame for a person's actions must be placed with that individual, not with technology or anything else. Yes, technology and social pressures may incline a person to act one way or another, but the final decision of the action they take is ultimately theirs and theirs alone.
Again absolutely true…ultimately a person is responsible for their actions and no one or thing is to be blamed – to a point. I'm an absolute believer in personal responsibility, but only to a point, but I'm too tired to continue....
johnnybgood
09-03-2010, 19:08
I've come to the conclusion that the socioeconomics of the trail has changed in the past decade giving way to a different mentality of hiker.
Certainly I blame selfless people but technology I believe adds to an already entrenched disconnect in our society where the concern for others has become blurred with what I call a need to just do what one wants for oneself.
Another words , technology I believe aids and abets an already existing character flaw in some people who are insensitive to others and are distracted easily by an omnipresent need to e-connect while ignoring the actual human aspect.
It sometime feels to me like we have lost compassion for one another and that compassion has been replaced with a love for the personal wealth of objects.
I hope very much that I am wrong and it's just me having a bad day.
I think a long hike might give me a better perspective on life. :)
LIhikers
09-03-2010, 20:23
This issue has nothing to do with "technology".
I would disagree....sort of.
I think many people assume that everyone has a cell phone and will call for help if they need it, they never consider that maybe the other person does not have a phone. I see that same attitude on the hi-way. A lot of people assume that if there's a car broken down on the hi-way that the driver will just call for help and drive on by without stopping.
Lion King
09-03-2010, 20:35
To simplify;
The woman is old, she is tiny, she has a cell phone but as most know, it wont work on the Moose.
The problem at its base point is, even if a hiker is responsible for their own choices, that if I (Or anyone) was 16 hours late someone would care enough to see if I was okay.
If you wouldn't help someone, may your time in the woods relate directly to your attitude to those who suffer for whatever reason.
Come on people, smile on your brother.....
4eyedbuzzard
09-03-2010, 21:36
This issue has nothing to do with "technology".
Agreed. It has everything to do with civility and respect for others.
It's an interesting thread. It's made me think about things differently. The study of history and civilizations is more complicated than war and peace, darkness and enlighenment, and the absence and presence and scope of empathy towards our fellow men and all creatures. It's also about how connected or disconnected we are, about what has our attention, what triggers our behaviour, and what we are oblivious to.
We have an obligation to develop and maintain our neural networks, both our own internal neural networks, our minds and bodies, but just as importantly our external and collective neural networks, our relationships, our environments. Learning is not simply a matter of taking in information and processing it, aacquiring knowledge and skills and opinions. Learning is also about shaping the world around us, so that we can behave more naturally, more effectively, more rationally, and more empathetically.
Sometimes learning is about burning books, and bridges.
The problem is learning which books and bridges need burning.
When the state burns books, that is fascism.
When an individual burns some of his own books, that is liberation.
kayak karl
09-03-2010, 22:13
Sometimes learning is about burning books, and bridges.
The problem is learning which books and bridges need burning.
When the state burns books, that is fascism.
When an individual burns some of his own books, that is liberation.
jak this has to to do about what?
Danielsen
09-03-2010, 22:35
Anonymity, that’s what it is, if you spend enough time cycling on roadways you’ll get use to the screaming, it’s the objects thrown at you that's hard to ignore.
I do, actually. Rude as the car-people sometimes are here, in the town where I live there seems to be an odd respect given to cyclists. Then again, we're the only small town I know of with a nice bike lane on main street. :o 40 miles down route 20 is another town where people are mostly polite to pedestrians but incomprehensibly rude to cyclists. Maybe if I lived in the deep south I'd have to deal with both all the time. Never had anything thrown at me... yet.
Again absolutely true…ultimately a person is responsible for their actions and no one or thing is to be blamed – to a point. I'm an absolute believer in personal responsibility, but only to a point, but I'm too tired to continue....
I feel like you and I have had a very similar discussion in a previous topic. :p
Karl, let JAK have his tangents. :banana
Lion King, you're right of course, what this is really about is people caring about other people. I like to think I care about people enough to go out of my way for them, even if it's just letting someone know they're missing. Self-absorption and detachment from other people is certainly a major part of why situations like this happen.
Jonnycat
09-03-2010, 22:52
People don't want to admit that the trail is filling up with jackass's.
It used to be that only backpackers went backpacking, especially on a long section, or even more, a thru-hike.
Danielsen
09-03-2010, 23:23
It used to be that only backpackers went backpacking, especially on a long section, or even more, a thru-hike.
The international-travel backpacking circuit is possibly even worse. All the hostels from bangkok to rio are filled with hard-partying trust fundies. My best friend and I spent a month traveling the andes on about $2000 hard-earned bucks apiece (I worked in a condiment factory, he washing dishes) and we were often treated by our fellow youthful travellers as if we were a different species. And we may as well have been, since we didn't steal stuff or partake in deliberate acts of inconsideration like most of the others, or stay up drinking in nearby bars until all hours and then spend most of the day sleeping it off at the hostel (travelling till their parent's money for us runs out).
malowitz
09-03-2010, 23:51
To simplify;
The woman is old, she is tiny, she has a cell phone but as most know, it wont work on the Moose.
The problem at its base point is, even if a hiker is responsible for their own choices, that if I (Or anyone) was 16 hours late someone would care enough to see if I was okay.
If you wouldn't help someone [bold by Malowitz], may your time in the woods relate directly to your attitude to those who suffer for whatever reason.
Come on people, smile on your brother.....
And in most cases, the hiker is OK. What if she had just run into some day hikers who said, come out to our place tonight and took her home for a night in a real bed. You and Packrat assumed the worst for her, but apparently she was all OK and didn't need help.
I had some times early on where I was concerned about hikers I knew were behind me and what they were going to be coming down (like Dragon's Tooth). I quickly learned that the hikers out there are OK on their own.
For a hike like Moosilauke - I still say if I were there, I would not have worried about her. That was a busy mountain. If she got in trouble, she probably would have been able to find help. If I was on the mountain w/her, I of course would have hepled if needed. However to night hike out to try to find a hiker who we don't know is in any danger - I wouldn't be there with you. And if it were a long late night, perhaps people at Jeffers Brook took care of her. Besides, I would have been asleep long before you headed out.
I think you're expecting a level of compassion/caring that is different from most people. You may have higher expectations so you're going to be disapointed in other folks. It may have nothing to do with generations or technology.
jak this has to to do about what?
Sorry that was somewhat over the top.
I was thinking about how our brains work, how our behaviour and decision making depends on our environment and interaction with others as much as it does on our own learning and routines and getting enough sleep etc. So to function properly we need to shape our external environment somewhat, choosing our addictions and stimuli and interactions wisely and so forth.
What the hell is wrong with some people?
If you hiked from GA to NH then your concern and kinship with others should be there, and this to me showed some horrifically self serving ‘who cares’ attitude toward a person who could have been lost, injured, dead, anything and not one of these people…two of which started the slack pack with her, never mentioned to anyone that she was missing.
And to be honest, Ive seen the WORST bunch of hikers EVER this year…
(Sure, they’re some good ones too, but jesus…)
Packrat and I got packed and headed out from different directions at 1 a.m.
I didn’t get back till 3 the next afternoon as I hiked the Benton, Long Pond, Mud pond and other trails that lead away from the summit and back searching.
She decided to stay on the mountain with no bag, no light, nothing and she was fine in the morning, but it bothers me that the hikers were watching TV or in their tents and not a single person made an effort to find this women, with the exception of one person mentioning it to Gary early in the afternoon, (And even then, no on mentioned she hadn’t made it back) but after that…nothing.
Makes me sick to my stomach that people don’t care.
She did make it down fine, but she could have been in trouble and if I hadn’t told one guy he might be disturbing people with the TV loud at midnight, he responded…”Nobodies in the hostel, the woman upstairs never came back…” as if he were talking about a lost puppy…
That is the kind of attitudes that people, in previous years, has long since lost…something is wrong with people, and they ALL USE THEIR damn cell phones on the trail now too…but that’s a different threadThis is indeed sad. At least someone with whom she was with could have alerted other's that she was not accounted for. I don't know where you or she were, if you or her were in immediate danger due to weather, physical injury,etc...Unfortunately, as other's have stated when travelling in dangerous, unknown terrain, people really benefit from hiking in groups, or at least with a buddy type system. Even a cell phone if a signal is made, is smart to have on ones person so other's can reach them if an emergency is to arise. As far as people being different today than years past, I do feel a lot of people have been forced to become rugged individualists so to speak due to the changing times in this country. Maybe it also can spill over while doing activities that would unfortunately benefit greatly from people helping and looking out for each other.
Pedaling Fool
09-04-2010, 08:07
If you hiked from GA to NH then your concern and kinship with others should be there, and this to me showed some horrifically self serving ‘who cares’ attitude toward a person who could have been lost, injured, dead, anything and not one of these people…two of which started the slack pack with her, never mentioned to anyone that she was missing.
And in most cases, the hiker is OK. What if she had just run into some day hikers who said, come out to our place tonight and took her home for a night in a real bed. You and Packrat assumed the worst for her, but apparently she was all OK and didn't need help.
I had some times early on where I was concerned about hikers I knew were behind me and what they were going to be coming down (like Dragon's Tooth). I quickly learned that the hikers out there are OK on their own.
For a hike like Moosilauke - I still say if I were there, I would not have worried about her. That was a busy mountain. If she got in trouble, she probably would have been able to find help. If I was on the mountain w/her, I of course would have hepled if needed. However to night hike out to try to find a hiker who we don't know is in any danger - I wouldn't be there with you. And if it were a long late night, perhaps people at Jeffers Brook took care of her. Besides, I would have been asleep long before you headed out.
I think you're expecting a level of compassion/caring that is different from most people. You may have higher expectations so you're going to be disapointed in other folks. It may have nothing to do with generations or technology.
Sounds kind of bad to me, especially since they started off together and wasn't the least bit concerned when this lady never showed up after 16 hours.
You accuse LK of too high a level of compassion/caring; I guess that's debatable, but you got to ask yourself if you have too much complacency.
Pedaling Fool
09-04-2010, 08:10
It's an interesting thread. It's made me think about things differently. The study of history and civilizations is more complicated than war and peace, darkness and enlighenment, and the absence and presence and scope of empathy towards our fellow men and all creatures. It's also about how connected or disconnected we are, about what has our attention, what triggers our behaviour, and what we are oblivious to.
We have an obligation to develop and maintain our neural networks, both our own internal neural networks, our minds and bodies, but just as importantly our external and collective neural networks, our relationships, our environments. Learning is not simply a matter of taking in information and processing it, aacquiring knowledge and skills and opinions. Learning is also about shaping the world around us, so that we can behave more naturally, more effectively, more rationally, and more empathetically.
Yes it's some interesting things to consider, but I ain't going there any more because there are other ingredients in this recipie that would really get me in trouble, like the Bill of Rights and our freedoms....but I ain't going there anymore.;)
Ah yes. The Ayn Rand interpretation. Well I prefer more traditional interpretations, drawn from something other than a work of fiction.
"I don't buy that younger people nowadays are any different than younger people in any generation. There are plenty of self centered young people now, but there have always been. I guess as we get older, it just is more apparent to us."
yes and policeman and shop attendants look younger every day. Being doing that for generations too. They must be prenatal by now.
Franco
Lion King
09-04-2010, 22:59
I would like to make clear that there are a great many good people out here hiking this year and I’ve meet a lot of them.
Good times, good fun, good people, absolutely, so the original statement ‘worst hikers ever’ is centered on a few bad incidents from the year, not all people.
I reacted strongly to a situation based on my feelings.
I meant no disrespect to current hikers in general.
IronGutsTommy
09-04-2010, 23:14
i dont think it sounded disrespectful. she was lucky to have hiked with you, that someone gave a damn. The moment i stop giving a damn may it be me on a lonely trail with no help in sight. youre a good man, charlie brown.
Lion King - Thanks for putting out the extra effort!!!
This season was not any different than earlier years. 90% of hikers are good people I am delighted to spend time with. The other 10% need to grow up but probably never will.
Go in any Walmart and see how many people will move over for you to let you by, or who will stop in the middle of the aisle with their cart and ignore the fact they are blocking the way.....
daddytwosticks
09-05-2010, 12:57
jody...I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Life would be a whole lot better if people just TRIED to be more polite and considerate of others. :)
Graywolf
09-07-2010, 13:49
Go in any Walmart and see how many people will move over for you to let you by, or who will stop in the middle of the aisle with their cart and ignore the fact they are blocking the way.....
Using "Wal-Mart" as a reply for a thread of the AT is a pretty bad example..You can do better than this..We all know what WM holds..
Graywolf
09-07-2010, 13:51
And in most cases, the hiker is OK. What if she had just run into some day hikers who said, come out to our place tonight and took her home for a night in a real bed. You and Packrat assumed the worst for her, but apparently she was all OK and didn't need help.
I had some times early on where I was concerned about hikers I knew were behind me and what they were going to be coming down (like Dragon's Tooth). I quickly learned that the hikers out there are OK on their own.
For a hike like Moosilauke - I still say if I were there, I would not have worried about her. That was a busy mountain. If she got in trouble, she probably would have been able to find help. If I was on the mountain w/her, I of course would have hepled if needed. However to night hike out to try to find a hiker who we don't know is in any danger - I wouldn't be there with you. And if it were a long late night, perhaps people at Jeffers Brook took care of her. Besides, I would have been asleep long before you headed out.
I think you're expecting a level of compassion/caring that is different from most people. You may have higher expectations so you're going to be disapointed in other folks. It may have nothing to do with generations or technology.
LK did comment that the lady was "old", That for one would have made me a bit more concerned for her. I certainly would have goe out and helped. Ok, she turned out Ok.. BUt at the time that was not known, I would have felt better to know before the fact then after..
Using "Wal-Mart" as a reply for a thread of the AT is a pretty bad example..You can do better than this..We all know what WM holds..
no it's not? there are ******** everywhere. in walmart AND on the at. it's a statement about basic manners.
flemdawg1
09-07-2010, 14:30
Actually, I think LK is just getting old. "Damn kids, stay off my lawn."
jeepcachr
09-08-2010, 09:13
Actually, I think LK is just getting old. "Damn kids, stay off my lawn."
http://hower.us/misc/emoticons/giggle.gif
BAG "o" TRICKS
09-08-2010, 09:33
Wow. I have been struggling with "am i just old school" or are things & hikers really differant?I feel that the AT itself and the ability and freedom to hike it is an unbelieveable privalage,a gift, and should be treated as such. When a hiker doesn't know who Del Doc, Benton McKye,Dorthy Laker,Earl Shaffer or what is the CCC,but knows where the next party is (cell phone) and the GPS coordinates-there is something wrong here. Please don't bring Babylon to Heaven. Thank you i will now step down from my soap box.
I like you standing on that 'old school' soap box RB, as for the 'new school' breed out there, "don't depend on the batteries operated devices to save your life."
Pedaling Fool
09-08-2010, 09:51
I guess I'm getting old, because I'm starting to confuse which group constitutes "younger" generation. I guess I can just pick one.
If I was in Lion Kings shoes I would probably had the same conserns as he and Packrat had.
They saw the situation unfold, first hand and saw a need to respond, like they did. They obviously considered the womans physical ability and lack of proper equipment befor they took the action they did.
The big problem was that other hikers, who were with her, abanded her for what ever reason they had and failed to consider her welfare and that is what this is all about.
I would like to believe that the thru-hiker community looks after their own. Sort of like a family. That was the spirit in 2001 when I thru-hiker. I can see that changing.
I spend time each year as a caretaker at Upper Goose Pond. This experience has allowed me to come in contact with a lot of thru-hikers. In the past 9 years, since my thru, I could see the change comming. A lot of hikers form small groups and their conserns are more just for that group and not the others on the trail. This conclusion I have come to by listening to their conversations and it troubles me to a degree that the comradeship that I experienced during my thru-hike does not exist today.
In a nut shell I think this is the point Lion King is making.