Leave No Trace needs to be revamped, please help

[The Hog]

Anyone who's ever seen CSI on TV knows that the phrase Leave No Trace is silly. You're always going to leave a trace. It's ridiculous to tell someone to leave no trace, since you're asking them to do something that's impossible. For that reason, the name needs to be changed.

But I would go further and revise and improve the concept. Here's a couple of examples of how it could be changed for the better.

The day I hiked into Cable Gap Shelter, the place was an unbelievable mess. There was trash everywhere and the register was full of people complaining about the litter. But no one did anything. I picked up as much as I reasonably could and carried it down to Fontana Dam the next day. My point is this: instead of advising hikers to Carry In/Carry Out, I would substitute: always carry out slightly MORE litter than you carry in.

I also question the wisdom of getting rid of established campsites (concentrated use) and forcing hikers to create a myriad of tent sites in a popular area. A few years ago, I hiked into the Pemigewasset Wilderness and found that established campsites were closed and a ranger directed incoming hikers at least 200 feet from the stream to find a different spot. The result was a large number of hikers beating the bushes, flattening out tentsites, essentially leaving traces that were sure to linger long after. So much for leave no trace! Wouldn't it be much better to site established campsites 200 feet from the stream in the first place and concentrate use there?

Ok, there's a couple of thoughts to get this thread rolling. The rest is up to you.

My question is, how would you improve the Leave No Trace concept, and would you be in favor of changing the name, if so, to what?

[Skyline]

The goal of LNT is fine. If you have a problem with the actual words or acronym, maybe Leave It Better Than You Found It (LIBTYFI) would be more suitable, but it's not as marketable. Your attempts to cleanup Cable Gap are commendable.

As is any effort to get hikers to camp away from water sources--to protect the water source and all who will use it downstream. You don't say if the "closed" campsites were ones that had been officially established, or ones that came to be over the years by random hikers. If the latter, no complaints IMO getting campers away from them. Some thought should have probably gone into coordinating where to send them, however--and if the volunteer labor was available your idea of establishing new official camping far away from the water is right on.

[Dances with Mice]

Good topic, Hog. First, if someone needs an electron microscope or a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer to find the traces you leave behind, I think you're doing just fine!

I'm disappointed that the phrase "Carry it in, carry it out!" can't be found in one of the LNT principles http://lnt.org/programs/lnt7/index.html

Or is it? I didn't find it, but if someone else does then correct me.

'CII, CIO' is simple and easily understood. I know simple phrases won't stop slobs from throwing trash on the ground, nothing will, but it's a good way to teach LNT. I can't rattle off all 7 LNT principles but I know people can remember one simple phrase. Madison Avenue has proven that many times.

And camping on durable surfaces - using established campsites - is one of the LNT principles, and you're right that popular areas should have a durable campsite area set up to minimize impact. But I've also seen over-used areas closed off to allow the area to regrow and heal, and I suppose that's what was happening to the place you visited.

[Clark Fork]

Perhaps LNT can be converted to an international symbol, making it a visual.

The item behind the circle and red cross bar would be a crinkled up item, some would take as a food/candy wrapper but some might take as TP. So when thinking of a change, think of a logo/symbol. A symbol/logo would be suitable for a patch/T-Shirt/hat emblem. LNT might also need a mascot as in Smoky the Bear. The most fastidious animal is probably the raccoon since it washes it's food. So Rocky Racoon would be the guardian cautioning against leaving a mess.

Another thing that might happen is that like the doggy-doo bag dispensers you find at parks that allow dogs, some high impact hut might have a dispenser of light bags to encourage pack-outs with a sign noting when the next trash container was located. It might have to come to that.

The other day I commented on a gear list saying the lister should throw in the trowel as in leave the trowel behind. I have been thinking that a lot since since the lister said that on his first hike, he just could not kick a cat hole deep enough. He said he might ditch it at Neels Gap but he would brandish it when getting the LNT lecture at Springer. It seems the trowel has been lost to the weight saving cause. Perhaps that needs some rethinking. Like the spork, someone might come up with a tent peg with a spade end to use as a cat hole digger. Perhaps Leki, could come up with a spade clip-on. The clip-on would serve to seat the pole better when using it as tent pole and the spade end could be used to dig a cat hole. Of course another alternative is to have a trowel on a hook at every hut without a privy. That might do more harm then good but it might help with some of the near by cess pool conditions we have now with stuff not even buried.

Good topic

Regards,


Clark Fork in Western Montana

[Alligator]

...
The other day I commented on a gear list saying the lister should throw in the trowel as in leave the trowel behind. I have been thinking that a lot since since the lister said that on his first hike, he just could not kick a cat hole deep enough. He said he might ditch it at Neels Gap but he would brandish it when getting the LNT lecture at Springer. It seems the trowel has been lost to the weight saving cause. Perhaps that needs some rethinking. Like the spork, someone might come up with a tent peg with a spade end to use as a cat hole digger. Perhaps Leki, could come up with a spade clip-on. The clip-on would serve to seat the pole better when using it as tent pole and the spade end could be used to dig a cat hole. Of course another alternative is to have a trowel on a hook at every hut without a privy. That might do more harm then good but it might help with some of the near by cess pool conditions we have now with stuff not even buried.

Good topic

Regards,


Clark Fork in Western MontanaThere are some shelters in TN that do not have privies. I am not sure this is a good idea. The areas get heavy use, and the area out back behind the shelters can be a mine field. I actually prefered making the stop somewhere along the trail because I was concerned about finding "buried treasure". So I'm not sure about that...

But at shelters without a privy, it was mighty nice to run into shelters with shovels. No problem digging a cathole with a real shovel:-? .

[smokymtnsteve]

I think would should approach LNT from the "harm reduction" POV.

Just like L, Wolf says the biggest scar on the trail is the trail itself. so your gonna leave traces, but how do we go about reducing our impacts, I like the terminolgy "lower impact" or "impact management" I think this would maybe be a better approach. LNT is negative tells you what NOT to do, where Impact management would teach you HOW to lower your impacts.

[ffstenger]

I think LNT should be thought of as more of a goal, than a commandment.
Keeping it simple, as most people of any level of education can understand.
If you make it more complicated in wording or try to purify the concept with
a different phrase, you will still have those of us who care that will try to make
every effort to comply. And you will still have those who will ignore the whole
thing... Showme

[Lone Wolf]

LNT and PACK IT IN/PACK IT OUT signs are like speed limit signs. Most ignore them. Shelters and official campsites will always be trashed and traced/impacted no matter what signs or caretakers are there. The AT is a highly accessible, super highway trail. It gets worse every year.

[Peaks]

LNT and PACK IT IN/PACK IT OUT signs are like speed limit signs. Most ignore them. Shelters and official campsites will always be trashed and traced/impacted no matter what signs or caretakers are there. The AT is a highly accessible, super highway trail. It gets worse every year.

Well, as a long time backpacker, I gotta disagree with this generalization. I think that the trails and campsites are getting better every year, thanks to the efforts of hundreds and thousands of volunteers, and getting the word out on LNT.

I think that in general, thru hikers practice the principals of LNT. If you look around, most places that are trashed are close to roads where the general public walks in. It's these people that need to get the message. Once told, I think that people do a very good job of packing it all out.

Maybe things are different in your area. Maybe I see the glass as half full rather than half empty.

[Skyline]

As a shelter maintainer, I gotta say that I don't think any sub-group of hikers has a monopoly on either practicing LNT--or trashing the place. There are bad apples and good apples in every type of hiker who stays at or visits the shelter. Thankfully, most are of the good variety.

It's the 2% who are bad--from the thru-hikers to the weekenders--who cause our problems. And a somewhat larger percentage may be guilty of what we can call "copycatism." They see that others have left unwanted stuff behind, or made an illegal campfire, or inscribed graffiti--and they assume it's OK for them to do likewise. If you keep after it on a regular basis the negatives don't multiply as easily.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

It's too bad our politicized government doesn't have some kind of CCC-style Trail Corps of regular summer volunteers. That way some fine crushed gravel tent sites could be built back into the bushes 200 feet from the stream. Crushed gravel is actually soft to sleep on (softer than boards) and drains well. The AT is a continuously uncompleted project that needs more full-time assistance...

[Peaks]

It's too bad our politicized government doesn't have some kind of CCC-style Trail Corps of regular summer volunteers. That way some fine crushed gravel tent sites could be built back into the bushes 200 feet from the stream. Crushed gravel is actually soft to sleep on (softer than boards) and drains well. The AT is a continuously uncompleted project that needs more full-time assistance...

The CCC wasn't volunteers. It was a work program.

Looking to volunteer on trail work this summer? There is a volunteer trail crew application in the current issue of AT News. Probably it's also at the ATC website.

[weary]

Anyone who's ever seen CSI on TV knows that the phrase Leave No Trace is silly. You're always going to leave a trace. It's ridiculous to tell someone to leave no trace, since you're asking them to do something that's impossible. For that reason, the name needs to be changed.
Paul Petzoldt, a pioneer mountaineer and founder of NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) originated the Leave no Trace slogan, but abandoned the idea for the reasons you mention.

It's an impossible goal and like most such slogans for most people it is just part of the background noise that is ignored. To talk of Leave No Trace while most hikers are using their Lekis to poke two holes into the side of trails with each step, and more disturbance with their lug sole boots, is absurd.

Unfortunately, LNT has evolved into part business, part cult. A lot of people make their livings keeping the idea alive and training instructors, both volunteer and paid. LEAVE No TRACE is a registered trademark. technically we are violating the law by discussing it without noting the copyright. Organizations that use LNT in their literature are required to pay a licensing fee. It's part of the commercialization of wild places.

It's also largely ineffective as a slogan. The trails are much cleaner than they were 30 years ago. But in my observation trails and especially shelters are more littered than they were when the message was a simple and practical Carry In, Carry Out.

I've argued this point with hiking groups including ATC. But most have been thoroughly indoctrinated.

I knew Paul Petzoldt, casually, during the last 15 years of his long life. He and a companion as 16-year-olds made among the first ascents of one of the Grand Tetons in 1924. Paul attempted a 70th anniversary climb of the same mountain in 1994, but had to give up. He was nearly blind when he died, age 91, in 1999.

But otherwise he was as bright and as interested in trails and the outdoors as ever.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

damn Weary, you hit the nail right on head and drove it completely home on the first lick.

[Peaks]

Leave no trace is much more than carry in carry out. It encompasses concepts like minimize campfire impacts, and group size. Also, hike and camp on durable surfaces. And, those of us who enjoy the outdoors are better off because of it.

[Tha Wookie]

This is a response to Weary's wary:

LNT is a program that uses the scientific research of Recreation Ecology (which is my field) to translate into a set of behavioral guidelines or "ethics" that one may choose to accept or ignore. Favoring education (empowerment) over regulation (overpowering), it is the most factual and streamlined set of personal backpacking/climbing/scubadiving/horseback riding/mountaineering/etc. standards in the US. The scope of the program far exceeds Maine, the AT, and hiking in general.

For the past month, working as a field director for NOLS research staff in Baja Sur, Mexico, I realized how important LNT is and how vital it may be to not just Maine, but outdoor recreation on a global scale. But some may be happy, because it has a different name in Mexico: No Deje Rastro (NDR). It still means the same thing.

In western Mexico, much like in the states 30 years ago, litter is a giant problem. People are not used to the American plastic way of living and just throw trash anywhere. But luckily, LNT is a flexible program that will respond specifically to the needs of the area, based on social research to understand the best information that an empower the people to make the right choices. I personally believe some strong legislation is needed there also, BTW.

I say this because LNT is a lot more than "pack it in/out". The name alone implies this, and the carefully crafted "ethics" deal with a range of behaviors. Although, I agree it has room for improvements, like perhaps a more explicit statement.

But you must understand, Weary, that LNT must be financially sustainable to be effective. For example, if you want them to make ammendments, who is going to pay for all the new printing/webdesign/logo change/scientific backing? The people who work for LNT make VERY little money, yet they educate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people. The money they charge for liscensing/materials goes right back into more programs and grants to help out recreation site management. If it can be done without money, then why aren't you and the MATC doing it? Why, instead, are you making laughably innane comments like "We are violating the law dicussing it [LNT] without a copyright," instead of acting out the better vision that you must have? Seriously, what's up with the slander?

LNT is a great organization that is DOING THE JOB. Quit your selfish nitpicking and get the big picture.

Sure they have room for improvement, but stand back for a minute and remember that you're on the SAME SIDE!

[Tha Wookie]

I want to add that land managers and outfitters in Mexico were begging for an educational program that would help inform island visitors of the most sustainable behaviors. I was very glad that something does exist; something with the resources at hand to reach out to these remote areas, conduct research, and formulate a program that fits those ecologically unique biomes.

[steve hiker]

"Leave No Trace" is fine. It's short, sweet, and gets the message across. People instantly grasp the idea, even though it's impossible to literally leave no trace at all.

[weary]

This is a response to Weary's wary:
....they educate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people. ....
LNT is a great organization that is DOING THE JOB. Quit your selfish nitpicking and get the big picture. Sure they have room for improvement, but stand back for a minute and remember that you're on the SAME SIDE!
The problem is that there are MANY MILLIONS using the trails and all most know about Leave No Trace are those three words -- or more likely just the initials.

Words have meanings. People react to the common sense meaning of words. A tiny fraction of a percent of hikers take the courses. Probably less than one percent even pick up the brochures. Even people that hear the words, notice the traces they inevitably leave and tend to tune out the message.

LNT is better than no message. But far better are the old messages. "Carry In, Carry Out." "Take only pictures; leave only footprints." These are messages people can immediately relate to. They aren't mixed and ambiguous messages. They don't require the answer one LNT instructor gave when she replied to a query about hiking poles "Well, we don't mean those kinds of traces."

The most important thing that LNT has done for MATC in Maine came when we hired an instructor to work with youth camp groups, especially those from Canada, which had become notorious for the trash they left behind.

For the 2 or 3 years she was with us, conditions improved. We also employ caretakers and shelter ridgerunners to spread the same message.

But I'll think better of LNT when it has the courage to confront the blatant traces left by most hiking poles, if only to encourage the use of rubber tips.
But then that might offend LNT's Leki corporate partner.

Weary

[Tha Wookie]

Weary,


Funny you should mention poles, because my mentor, Jeff Marion (see a feature on him in the current ATN), has been doing informal research on just the matter, as have I. We've actually designed a study to measure erosion and tread widening related to poles, but do not have the dollars or time for the study now. Marion, a former LNT boardmember and regular contributor to research efforts, has been part of exactly what you are requesting. In fact, you might have read his acrticle several years ago in the ATN about poles, in which he recommended using the rubber tips and not the baskets. He stated that finding a random black rubber tip is far less obtrusive than a punctured tread for miles. I agree.

The issue now is getting financial support for the study, and incorporating the knowledge in into the LNT framework. I will tell you, Weary, that although I agree with you on the issue of poles, it is important that LNT relies on objective research-based results on which to make their case for recreation behavior.

If the issue is very important to you and others, I suggest seeking a research grant and then contacting the ATC, Mr. Marion, or me to find the right people who can make it happen. Does it mean poles will be addressed in LNT literature? I can't say. Honestly, it might already be. But I do agree it is a topic worth exploring.

[9026543]

What bothers me more than the treking pole marks is that hikers walk when the trail is muddy and leave those god awful footprints everywhere. Ruins my wilderness experience!:-?

[weary]

What bothers me more than the treking pole marks is that hikers walk when the trail is muddy and leave those god awful footprints everywhere. Ruins my wilderness experience!:-?

Well, the group that has built and manages the Long Trail in Vermont urges responsible hikers to avoid muddy conditions. It's not footprints they are worried about, but the resulting erosion of the trail from stirring up even more mud.

I'm not an expert on Leave No Trace but I do understand that the group is opposed to walking through muddy conditions in "Desert Puddles and Mud Holes." Leave no Trace argues that "Water is a preciously scarce resource for all living things in the desert. Don't walk through desert puddles or mud holes, or disturb surface water in any way. Potholes are also home to tiny desert animals."

I can't find any reference to LNT advocating the avoidance of Eastern trails during mud season, but as I say, I'm not an expert on the group's priorities.

However, observant hikers will note the soil stirred up during the mud seasons and will avoid hiking fragile trails during such times so as to not contribute to unnecessary soil erosion.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

I agree rubber tips on hiking poles are a good idea, the damaged rubber tips could be carried out, this goes along with the "harm reduction" model. we could use the slogan "ALWAYS USE A RUBBER" :D

so lets advocate for rubber tips being required, it's coming so,

(note to self)

invest in rubber hiking poles tips.

[Dances with Mice]

(note to self)

invest in rubber hiking poles tips.

Not to be cynical, oh no not me, but you'd make more bucks investing in waterproof cellphone cases.

Love the slogan tho.

[smokymtnsteve]

Not to be cynical, oh no not me, but you'd make more bucks investing in waterproof cellphone cases.

Love the slogan tho.


trouble maker ;)