View Full Version : Rinsing soap from hands
When washing your hands with soap, do you rinse with purified/filtered water? What about rinsing directly in a stream (using biodegradable soaps, of course)?
ChinMusic
09-07-2010, 21:29
I wouldn't rinse soapy stuff out IN a stream out of respect for others. Rinse away from water sources even with biodegradable soap.
Personally I usu wash off without soap and then use a hand sanitizer prior to eating. I don't even bring soap.
One thing to keep in mind when doing anything around a stream is that it often crosses the trail in more than one place.
So, while you may *think* you're rinsing your hands downstream you might actually be rinsing them upstream from another hiker who just may be collecting water.
Lone Wolf
09-07-2010, 21:35
i've never ever used any kinda soap while backpacking.
shelterbuilder
09-07-2010, 21:37
My Mom was a "clean-freak" (God rest her soul), and I can tell you this much: none of us lives in a bubble, so forget about trying to get everything that touches you "sterile". :eek: IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! :D
Save the filtered water for the INSIDE of you, and don't worry too much about (gasp!) rinsing the soap off of your hands in a stream. Unless you're licking your hands dry (;)), the water on your hands won't hurt you, and unless you've used a couple of gallons of soap to clean up, the small amount of soap that you introduce into the water will have a neglegible (sp?) effect on the water in the stream.
Having said THAT, I'm ready for all of the LNT folks to start shooting!:D
My Mom was a "clean-freak" (God rest her soul), and I can tell you this much: none of us lives in a bubble, so forget about trying to get everything that touches you "sterile". :eek: IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! :D
Save the filtered water for the INSIDE of you, and don't worry too much about (gasp!) rinsing the soap off of your hands in a stream. Unless you're licking your hands dry (;)), the water on your hands won't hurt you, and unless you've used a couple of gallons of soap to clean up, the small amount of soap that you introduce into the water will have a neglegible (sp?) effect on the water in the stream.
Having said THAT, I'm ready for all of the LNT folks to start shooting!:D
While this may be true, if everyone did this as a rule, it would have a negative impact on our (we backpackers') water supply, particularly in heavily used areas. :mad:
Feral Bill
09-07-2010, 22:48
Its easy to wash with hot water only, boiled up after dinner. Use to clean up the kitchen ware, then pour the rest over your hands to rinse, away from water sources. Might not work out with alcohol stoves.
Have a friend poor a bottle of water over your hands away from the stream. You can do it by yourself with practice, but its harder and seems to use more water. I don't care if the label says biodegradable soap, don't put it in the water if you can help it. It still can have an affect on bacteria levels downstream.
I just read something recently, perhaps in another thread, that soaps biodegrade better when in contact with the soil. So, I'd carry some water away from the stream and wash up elsewhere. A plastic bag makes a pretty good basin, and then one can fling the soap-tinged water into the woods.
Yes, I rinse with filtered water.
IronGutsTommy
09-08-2010, 01:13
sanitizer works just fine, otherwise follow tlaps advice and dump the soiled water in the woods or a recently used but yet to be covered cat hole.
Jonnycat
09-08-2010, 01:41
What is this "soap" you speak of? Do you perhaps mean soup? Why would you wash your hands with soup?
People sure do some funny things.
IronGutsTommy
09-08-2010, 01:44
make sure the soup cools down first.. learned that the hard way..
Damn you, Campbells!
If you are having concerns about rinsing soap, you have used too much of it.
Water alone is a detergent, and usually sufficient, especially if its hot water.
If it is cold water you just need more of it.
Sometimes you get sticky spruce gums or pine tars and such on your hands or on your feet. Don't worry too much about getting it off your skin. It's lovely stuff. It really is. Way better for your skin than soap, that's for sure. Anyhow your body will shed it off soon enough, all in good time, with its own sweat and oils and waxes and alcohols and antibiotics and all that good stuff, and with the help of friendly bacteria and other little bugs and things. Water helps, so get yourself wet now and then. Rain works best for the whole body, and so does a quick swim. For your hands and face, a quick rinse whenever you feel the need. For your nether regions, daily ablutions with hot water is a good morning and/or evening ritual. A little wood ash, or alcohol, might be useful now and then, here or there, but for the most part, water is sufficient.
Have a friend poor a bottle of water over your hands away from the stream. You can do it by yourself with practice, but its harder and seems to use more water. I don't care if the label says biodegradable soap, don't put it in the water if you can help it. It still can have an affect on bacteria levels downstream.
All hand soaps and common dish soaps are biodegradeable. But no, don't rinse off soap into streams, unless you want to risk being osatracized by others on the trail.
Besides no one likes to drink even diluted soap.
But use soap, or at least a chemical cleansing agent of some kinds daily.Those who spend a week on the trail without washing with soap and water are the principle way disease organisms are spread among the trail community.
Weary
I would still argue that water is sufficient, but I would agree with weary that you do need to wash more regularly and more thoroughly when you are in high traffic areas. The biggest source of infection to humans is other humans. Everyone should do their part, not just to protect themselves from others but to protect others and the environment from themselves. In this sense hand washing is really more important than water filtering and purification, though that is important also, particularly in high traffic areas, for the same reason. It's not so important to protect yourself from others or the environment so much as the other way around.
So a little soap and/or alcohol gel can go a long way, and might allow you to use less water when between water sources. Arguably, it is only around water sources that you need to wash your hands, and then water is available in sufficient quantity to make soap and/or alcohol unneccessary, but this is not always the case. After going to the bathroom off the trail someplace, it should be sufficient to give your hands a quick scrub with forest litter, but this might not appeal to everyone.
So the question might be, what soap or other detergents/surficants or abrasive cleansing agents are the more eco-friendly?
#1: Plain old water. Hot rainwater being the most effective.
#2: Plain old dirt or forest litter, before water or instead of water.
#3: Ethyl alcohol based hand cleaners, or potassium based hand soaps or shampoos. Not as eco-friendly as the above two options, but many people have been conditioned to not feel clean unless they use something other than water. Alot of it has to do with smell. Also the clean feeling you get when you remove more of the grease from your skin than you probably should.
#4 Sodium based soaps are not as eco-friendly because land plants and microbes don't like sodium. Most soaps are sodium based because they are industrially cheaper.
Potassium based soaps are essentially made from plants, via potash from wood ash and vegetable oils from plants, or from chemicals that are identical to what could have come from plants. Sodium based salts are essentially made from chemicals that do not come from plants. Of course it gets fuzzy because both types of soaps could have other ingredients that are worse than either, so some potassium based soaps or shampoos could be worse than simple sodium based hand soaps or dish soaps or shampoos. No matter what you use, if you use only a very small amount, and you dispose of it in a way that, with consideration to what others are doing also, keeps it fairly dispersed, it probably won't do much harm. Best place is on land, in soil, where stuff will break it down. In water it will be more dispersed, but will actually do more harm before it gets broken down.
My sliver of Ivory soap, cut off from a large bath-sized bar, typically will last me a week on the trail, for dishes, hands, and other body parts, does not contain enough sodium for any plant or creature to notice, especially when splashed on the ground many feet from the nearest water source.
And it will remove germs and other disease causing organisms much better than does hot water alone. That's why surgeons wash with soap -- or used to. Now an alcohol gels is used.
Jak is right about potasium being a better plant food than sodium. But such tiny amounts need be used by hikers, that nature won't complain either way.
My grandmother used to make soap regularly for my four cousins who she cared for after their mother died. She used discarded grease from cooking, and lye (sodium hydroxide, I think) dissolved in water. She whipped up the mixture, and dumped it into molds. Whenever she made a batch she delivered a cake to my folks, who lived four miles away from my cousin's 100-acre farm.
When my wife and I married 49 years ago we made a few batches from my grandmother's recipe, and also by filtering water through wood ashes to produce a potasium lye.
Making soap later became a rather popular craft hobby. But we stopped after some brief experimentation.
Any soap is all natural -- or at least pretty primitive. Detergents are more complex, but most are equally harmless, I'm told.
Weary
Hikes in Rain
09-09-2010, 07:41
Weary, how do you carry that Ivory? I wear contact lenses, and Ivory is my choice for hand washing prior to handling them. I keep my little sliver of it in a ziploc, but it inevitably gets soft and messy. (Doesn't affect the cleaning properties, though) Ivory used to make a liquid hand soap similar to the bar, but I haven't seen that for years now.
Thought of a plastic soap box, but the ones I've found are too big for the little piece I take.
As far as rinsing, I also carry a little wash basin made by cutting off the bottom of a gallon milk jug. Almost weightless, and useful for gathering water from small seeps.
Maybe he just scrapes a little off without getting it wet. I wonder what it would be like with a little magic baking powder mixed in, if you carried that anyway for making scones or whatever. I do like the idea of a little alcohol rinse now and them, especially is also carrying it as fuel. I bought some 99% ethanol recently, with the denaturing stuff added of course, and also camphor. Still works great as fuel, and feels nice and smells nice when used as rubbing alcohol. Not sure the best way to dilute it of foam or gel it up so you wouldn't have to use so much at once. Maybe mix it on the spot with a little baking soda or baking powder or wood ash. I'll probably end up blowing myself up of burning myself down to the bone one of these days, or get someone on the internet to do it for me.
Ivory soap sounds like a good choice. ;)
Weary, how do you carry that Ivory? I wear contact lenses, and Ivory is my choice for hand washing prior to handling them. I keep my little sliver of it in a ziploc, but it inevitably gets soft and messy. (Doesn't affect the cleaning properties, though) Ivory used to make a liquid hand soap similar to the bar, but I haven't seen that for years now.
Thought of a plastic soap box, but the ones I've found are too big for the little piece I take.
As far as rinsing, I also carry a little wash basin made by cutting off the bottom of a gallon milk jug. Almost weightless, and useful for gathering water from small seeps.
IDK what Weary does, but I do carry my soap in one of those old plastic soap boxes, then inside a baggie. The soap dries out and doesn't go gooey (I use a 1/2 to 1/4 bar of Nutragena). I also use the milk jug basin for washing and other purposes.
I've never found a good way to keep soap hard on the trail. Usually I keep it in a snack-sized plastic bag, if I can find them, or in the smallest I can find. Once it gets too mushy I add water to the baggie and dump the suds into my cooking pot. I've used the bottom of a gallon milk jug for a pan at times, but usually my cooking pot does double duty for all my washing chores.
Ivory liquid dishwashing detergent also works well as a liquid soap. It's good for more than dishes. Consumer Reports once added it to a batch of shampoos it was blind testing. Ivory liquid ranked in the middle of the pack as I recall.
Weary
When you consider the weight of the soap and the container and the moisture added to the soap, initally and once it gets wet, then it would seem to me that the lightest solution would be some sort of powder that you would dispense into your cook pot. Perhaps you could grate your bar of ivory soap ahead of time, into a plastic zip lock, or a small light plastic pill bottle, or film canister bottle, with snap lid. You could also experiment with mixes of ivory soap and baking soda, or just have them in separate containers for different purposes. Soap powder for clothes and hands. Baking soda fow teeth. Perhaps a mix of both for dishes. Some denatured alcohol in another container, for fuel and for cleaning and first aid situations.
When resupplying on a thru-hike or long section hike resupply of small quantities becomes problematic. If you carry a small cheese grater or knife anyway you can always shave up a small bar of soap. Baking soda would be harder to resupply in small quantities. Alcohol less of a problem if you are using it for fuel also. The baking soda resupply problem could be solved by making your own equivalent from wood ash. I think the method is to pick out very fine white ash, preferably from hardwood. This will produce the purest form as hardwoods have less gums and tars. Remove all the charcoal also because it leads to other reactions. So you would then add water to ash, and let it sit, and then drain the water out which is somewhat corrosive. That same water could be used when doing dishes though. Eventually the potash paste you are left with can be used for things like you would use baking soda for, although it is potassium based soda rather than a sodium based soda. I don't think it would be practical to make soap on the trail, but potash soda paste, and potash lime water, might be useful for many things, such as cleaning dishes, washing clothes, washing yourself, brushing your teeth, and even for baking scones.
Here is a fun link. I think I may have posted it before.
http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/potash/
More caveman chemistry projects:
http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/
Weary, how do you carry that Ivory? I wear contact lenses, and Ivory is my choice for hand washing prior to handling them. I keep my little sliver of it in a ziploc, but it inevitably gets soft and messy. (Doesn't affect the cleaning properties, though) Ivory used to make a liquid hand soap similar to the bar, but I haven't seen that for years now.
Thought of a plastic soap box, but the ones I've found are too big for the little piece I take.
As far as rinsing, I also carry a little wash basin made by cutting off the bottom of a gallon milk jug. Almost weightless, and useful for gathering water from small seeps.
Plastic 35mm film can. Still gets mushy. You can limit the water contact by just soaping a finger, but it still gets funky.
Hikes in Rain
09-09-2010, 18:17
Sounds like double baggie-ing the bar is likely the best option,except maybe the film can. May have to try that, it sounds good! Just hoping that someone might have had a magic solution I overlooked. A mushy bar isn't all that bad, anyway, and in fact does make it a bit easier to soap up the hands. That's about all I use it for. Jak is right, water is generally all you need, except that being a contact lens wearer automatically puts you in something of a special needs catagory.
Totally agree on special needs of contact lense wearers. Do fingers of both hands contact the eyeball. I think they do. I used to wear contacts when I sailed competitively, but its been awhile. Thinking of switching back because I am so hard on glasses, losing them and breaking them, that I think a pack of contacts would be cheaper. How much for a pack these days?
Hikes in Rain
09-09-2010, 20:23
I wear PureVision Multi-Focal lenses (eliminates the need for reading glasses!), so they're a bit higher. I pay (I think) about $60 for a box of six. Double that for both eyes, so say, $120 for more than six months supply. Not all that cheap, but the superior vision I get over glasses, plus the convenience of having "real" eyes (at least the closest I've had) makes them a bargin in my book. If you don't need lenses like those, I think the single focus lenses are even cheaper.
You're right, two fingers touch the lens. Well, finger and thumb, as you "pinch" them off the eye. I also gently rub deposits of in the palm of my hand, but you could certainly use that same thumb and finger. My habits are so engrained after 40 years or so, though, I'd drop them in my palm before I realized it. Lens care is like brushing my teeth for me, it doesn't require consious thought.
Something else i just thought of. I think these lenses are 30 day wear, even sleeping with them in. I know a lot are. Hadn't thought of that, because I can't do that even with lenses that are designed to do so. That would be helpful in the woods!
Thanks. I will look into this for sure. Especially as I need reading glasses now in addition to being near sighted. I have stigmatism also, but contacts still worked reasonably well. I only used them for sailing because of the hassle, and like you I could not keep them in overnight, but I think I will give them a shot again. Even when hiking maybe. I am really curious to see how they help in front of a computer screen, as I am going blind this week trying to finish some work. Cheers.
Now that's an interesting redirect, from washing hands to eyeglasses.
Yaaannnnnkkkkkkkk. Bringing it back to the original topic.
Jak, I've never heard of using just water. Do you know of any studies that compare washing with soap vs water alone? Sounds very interesting, but carrying a little soap is pretty good insurance against having to shorten a hike due to illness.
I don't know of any statistical studies. I think I understand the science though.
It's mostly about sloughing off dead skin and sebum and some of the good bugs and hopefully most of the bad bugs that are on your skin, and leaving an environment behind that is better for the good bugs and not so good for the bad bugs. Soap and water isn't effective because it is anti-bacterial. Soap and water is effective because it is a detergent and a surficant and a solvent. Better than water alone because of the way it breaks down surface tension and grease in particular. Now some of that grease is supposd to be there, the sebum that is exreted from our sebacious glands, but as long as we do not overdo it with the soap it is faster and more effective than water alone, but simply using more hot water and scrubbing or soaking with a wash cloth for a little more time can have the same effect. Getting under the nails is particularly important, either way. A small scrub brush and wash cloth and hot water is probably more effective than a wash cloth and hot water with soap but without a scrub brush. It's not so much that I am against a little soap. More to the point is that people should probably use a little less soap, and more diligence, to be better for the environment and for their own hgiene and skin health. Soap tends to be overdone. Scrubbing and rinsing tend to be overdone. Recycling your old toothbrush might make a good scrub brush for under the nails. A larger scrub brush might be redundant with a wash cloth for the rest of your body.
When anti-bacterial disinfectant is warranted, I would use a little alcohol gel hand cleaner, or some alcohol mixed with hot water. Ethanol based rubbing alcohol is better for your skin than isopropyl based rubbing alcohol, and makes an excellent stove fuel. Isopropyl based rubbing alcohol is safer for your skin than methanol, but isn't as good for stove fuel.
It is more important to understand the science than to bring the soap.
Here is the wikipedia article on hand washing with soap...
Here is the article it is referencing...
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200321/000020032103A0678807.php
Abstract;The present study was designed to investigate the effective hand-washing with non-medicated soap towards removing bacteria from the hand of nursing practitioners in hospitals. Washing through the application of soap and rinsing with water for various periods of time, and also the number of paper towels used for drying were compared. Results 1) Under 15 seconds of rinsing, the number of colony forming units (CFU) after hand-washing was significantly reduced in the group which applied of soap for 8 or 15 seconds. However, in the group of the 30 seconds, bacterial reduction was not seen. 2) Under 15 seconds of soap application, CFU after rinsing by running water for 15, 30, or 60 seconds, were significantly reduced in all groups, especially in the group of the 60 seconds rinse. 3) By using two or three paper towels for hand drying, CFU were significantly reduced. By using a single common cloth towel, the bacterial reduction on the hand was decreased according as the number of bacteria on the towel were increased. Conclusion For effective hand-washing with non-medicated soap, rubbing together of lathered hands for 8 - 15 seconds, followed by thorough rinsing with running water, and finally drying by at least two paper towels were recommended. Cloth towels for common use should not be available. (author abst.)
So how does this translate into practice in the field when hiking? Obviously we don't have paper towels, so maybe a hand towel, but how do we keep that clean and dry? So maybe its a matter of more rinsing and a big shake at the end? As far as soap goes, one of the cited advantages of using soap is that it simply makes peopl scrub longer, and rinse longer. So the most important thing is not the soap, but the scrubbing and rinsing. Keeping your clothing clean also is important, because you are most likely going to be wiping your hands on them quite frequently. So again, we are back to perhaps a little soap, or wood ash, but mostly it is all about scrubbing and rinsing, preferably with hot water. Your body is building new skin and sweating and secreting sebacious fluid all the time, and this essentially is the natural soap and antibacterial agent that your body uses to stay clean and healthy. You just need to scrub it and rinse it off with hot water fairly regularly.
A little soap does help, but if you read between the lines, cleaning is mostly about scrubbing and rinsing with water, and soap and shampoo are mostly about marketing and social psycology, but if a little soap helps you get the job done, use a little soap.
Woops. Wikipedia article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_washing_with_soap
Passage leading to article above...
Washing hands with water alone is significantly less effective than washing hands with soap in terms of removing germs. Although using soap in hand washing breaks down the grease and dirt that carry most germs, using soap also means additional time consumed during the massaging, rubbing, and friction to dislodge them from fingertips, and between the fingers, in comparison with just using water for handwashing. Effective hand-washing with soap takes 8 – 15 seconds, followed by thorough rinsing with running water.[4] Another incentive for soap's use is it leaves hands smelling pleasant.
Here is an article that compares the use of soap to alcohol when water is less available...
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/82/2/270
It would be interesting to compare lathering and scrubbing with soapy water followed by scrubbing and rinsing with water to using plain old dirt and forest litter instead of soap. the dirt and forest litter would have the same effect as soap in making you scrub and rinse more thoroughly. It would also have some abrasive action, and perhaps some detergent or surficant action also depending on what is in the dirt and forest litter. No doubt, there is the chance that the dirt and forest litter might be contaminated, especially in high traffic areas, but there is also the case for dirt and forest litter containing friendly bugs and bacteria which far out number any bad bugs and bacteria, and especially after being rinsed thoroughly with water the end effect is that it migh actually end up being better for your hands and skin than if you had used too much soap, and not enough water.
Here's what the Mayo Clinic says about "How to wash your hands:"
"It's generally best to wash your hands with soap and water. Follow these simple steps:
"Wet your hands with running water.
Apply liquid, bar or powder soap.
Lather well.
Rub your hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds. Remember to scrub all surfaces, including the backs of your hands, wrists, between your fingers and under your fingernails.
Rinse well.
Dry your hands with a clean or disposable towel or air dryer." (good news for hikers. After washing and rinsing, wave your hands in nature's dryer, the air around us.)
The clinic adds, "Keep in mind that antibacterial soap is no more effective at killing germs than is regular soap. Using antibacterial soap may even lead to the development of bacteria that are resistant to the product's antimicrobial agents — making it harder to kill these germs in the future."
Nicely summed up. The emphasis seems to be on the thorough scrubbing and rinsing and the time factor. The importance of the soap is not to kill anything as such, but only to help loosen and wash everything off. A large part of the usefulness of soap is because it forces or inspires us to scrub a little longer and perhaps more regularly. In our minds we are left squeeky clean, even though all that we have really done, and should be doing, is to reduce population levels back to a reasonable level, and leave an environment which is better suited for friendly microbes rather than harmful microbes. You can overdo soap and alcohol, and even hot water I suppose, because if you kill absolutely everything on your skin, and leave no human sebum behind, you are actually leaving an environment which is more vulnerable to infection by harmful microbes. Its really a case for establishing and maintaining a natural biodiverse habitat, on a microscopic level. In this instance, we are the habitat, rather than the inhabitor. :)
The use of anti-bacterial agents does seem to be unclear. Are they talking about ethanol solutions, or other disinfectants? When should alcohol solutions and hand cleaners be used, and when should they not be used? or is it just 'anti-bacterial soaps' that should not be used because it leads to superbugs.
Plenty of food for thought. I might have to rethink my kit for this fall, and my order of doing things. I have a kelly kettle, which does make things easier, but I am still not sure about the best order of doing things, whether there should be a rinse station as well as a wash station, that sort of thing. I like the idea of stripping down and washing up above the waistline before meals, while making tea or coffee and oatmeal, and then just rinsing everything well in a cold water stream after scrubbing it all out with forest litter. For the lower body I think it makes sense to washup from the waist down after you have a crap, and washing and changing your underwear at that time also. Presumably it is only once a day, and so that might be the time to do it, away from meal time. It could be followed by a swim. For feet and socks, perhaps they could be done whenever you cross a stream. I usually wear the same socks all day, or alternate between two pairs. I like to wash one pair of socks at night, usually after supper. This stuff usually works itself out over time, but I think it is good to put some fresh thought into it now and then.
Nicely summed up. The emphasis seems to be on the thorough scrubbing and rinsing and the time factor. The importance of the soap is not to kill anything as such, but only to help loosen and wash everything off. A large part of the usefulness of soap is because it forces or inspires us to scrub a little longer and perhaps more regularly. In our minds we are left squeeky clean, even though all that we have really done, and should be doing, is to reduce population levels back to a reasonable level, and leave an environment which is better suited for friendly microbes rather than harmful microbes. You can overdo soap and alcohol, and even hot water I suppose, because if you kill absolutely everything on your skin, and leave no human sebum behind, you are actually leaving an environment which is more vulnerable to infection by harmful microbes. Its really a case for establishing and maintaining a natural biodiverse habitat, on a microscopic level. In this instance, we are the habitat, rather than the inhabitor. :)
The use of anti-bacterial agents does seem to be unclear. Are they talking about ethanol solutions, or other disinfectants? When should alcohol solutions and hand cleaners be used, and when should they not be used? or is it just 'anti-bacterial soaps' that should not be used because it leads to superbugs.
Alcohol is a valid substitute for soap except when your hands are obviously soiled. Then soap and water is required, according to my google search. Alcohol kills stuff on contact, as the teacher explained as she placed a worm in a cup of whisky, and watched it die. She asked her pupils what they had learned.
A kid in back raised his hand and replied. "If I drink whisky, I won't have worms."
Weary
i've never ever used any kinda soap while backpacking.
Then how do you clean your Leki's each night in the shelter?!
vamelungeon
09-10-2010, 18:18
I like to keep my hands as clean as I can. I carry hand sanitizer nowadays.
When my son was in the USMC and going through infantry school he kept getting pink eye. I told him it was because his hands were nasty and then he'd rubbed his eye. He started keeping his hands as clean as possible and avoided rubbing his eyes, and the pink eye problem went away.
I'd bet most of the people who get the trots while hiking didn't get them from contaminated water, but from eating food with dirty hands or sharing some food with someone with dirty hands. If you take a dump, you need to get your hands clean afterward. Period. If you don't you may get sick.
I like to keep my hands as clean as I can. I carry hand sanitizer nowadays.
When my son was in the USMC and going through infantry school he kept getting pink eye. I told him it was because his hands were nasty and then he'd rubbed his eye. He started keeping his hands as clean as possible and avoided rubbing his eyes, and the pink eye problem went away.
I'd bet most of the people who get the trots while hiking didn't get them from contaminated water, but from eating food with dirty hands or sharing some food with someone with dirty hands. If you take a dump, you need to get your hands clean afterward. Period. If you don't you may get sick.
And whether or not you do everything right, if you dip your hand into the gorp of a friendly, but less than stringent fellow hiker, or share his friendly offer to share a taste of his food, or let him reach in and share your gorp, you also my get sick.
When I offer to share gorp or other goodies I look for outstretched hands that I can dump into, rather than offer bags that can be dipped into. Practice a bit, and you too can be protected, and protect others, without being unfriendly.
Not that I'm a purist. If someone offers me food from their spoon, I tend to just shrug and gamble. I sometimes do the same in other dangerous temptations. But better to be safe some of the time, rather than none of the time, as I sometimes suggest to Kanga.
Weary
When I offer to share gorp or other goodies I look for outstretched hands that I can dump into, rather than offer bags that can be dipped into. Practice a bit, and you too can be protected, and protect others, without being unfriendly.
I do the same for the same reasons as you. I also go further and don't even touch my own food with my hands. I either pour it into my mouth or use a spoon. That's not really for germs though. It's more that I don't want to get my hands all sticky.
Jak,
THank you very much for the good info. This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to get when I first posted the question. Good stuff!!
Alcohol is a valid substitute for soap except when your hands are obviously soiled. Then soap and water is required, according to my google search. Alcohol kills stuff on contact, as the teacher explained as she placed a worm in a cup of whisky, and watched it die. She asked her pupils what they had learned.
A kid in back raised his hand and replied. "If I drink whisky, I won't have worms."
Weary
I tried that when I was sick before. I gave up after a month.
I made myself sick by using my knife to cut some fruit. I cut some fruit and left the rest of it in my hotel room for a few hours. Then I ate the rest of it. I'm sure my knife was not clean at all. I was sick for 48 hours. So wash your knife, too.
ephbulay123
06-24-2011, 00:40
I just only rinse soap from hands using filtered water.
Trailbender
06-24-2011, 07:41
I rarely washed my hands on my thru, and had no issues. I rarely wash my hands at home and the last time I got sick was 4 years ago. People put way too much emphasis on being sterile and clean all the time, and I think that is mostly why people constantly get sick.
People put way too much emphasis on being sterile and clean all the time, and I think that is mostly why people constantly get sick.
Actually, no, cleanilness does not cause sickness.
Panzer
Trailbender
06-25-2011, 10:07
Actually, no, cleanilness does not cause sickness.
Panzer
I am talking about the OCD overcleanliness ideas most people have. Look at hospitals and how clean they are, there are supergerms they are having trouble killing. I never particularly worry about hygiene, I brush my teeth regularly, and take showers when I need it, but rarely wash my hands. There's no need. Whenever I get sick it is literally once every few years.
I preffer to use a shampoo for my all-in-one cleaner, most often "Suave", as far as rinsing my hands I usually have a bottle with a sport cap. I pull it open with my teeth and tuck the bottle under my arm and then lean forward and let the water flow, squeeze it a little if needed, yes it is filtered water but only a little is needed to rinse. I also cary a sample size alcahol cleaner.
Hikes in Rain
06-25-2011, 14:08
The "superbugs" are bred through the over use and inappropriate use of antibiotics. Not washing. They're immune to six or more antibiotics. We were predicting them back in the '70's.
hikerboy57
06-25-2011, 14:24
save the soap for towns, use hand sanitizer instead, and dont let other people touch your food, vice versa., and sanitizer is also a great firestarter.
handlebar
06-25-2011, 21:17
Back to the OP's original issue about rinsing in a steam. The alternate I use is to carry a gallon ziploc freezer bag. I fold it down a bit then dip it in a water source to collect my wash/rinse water which I then carry about 100 yds from the stream. Wash and rinse then shake out the ziploc and put it back.
I always rince my hands using filtered water because that's the only kind of water I carry. I don't carry non-filtered water.
Panzer
... but rarely wash my hands. There's no need.
Actually, there really is a need to wash your hands.
Panzer
Trailbender
06-25-2011, 22:02
Actually, there really is a need to wash your hands.
Panzer
I pretty much never bother, and haven't had issues.
save the soap for towns, use hand sanitizer instead, and dont let other people touch your food, vice versa., and sanitizer is also a great firestarter.
I use birch bark I peel from downed limbs along the trail as a free and virtually weightless fire starter. I use a thin slice of Ivory soap for washing my hands (and other body parts occasionally) It's simpler, less expensive, and more convenient than carrying around plastic bottles of chemicals. And totally harmless to the environment.
I usually carry a cup or two of water in my cooking pot a hundred feet or more from the nearest stream, pond or campsite, soap up, and rinse with the balance of the water. You don't need to use filtered water. If it's water suitable for filtering, the little unfiltered water left on one's hands after rinsing is harmless.
SassyWindsor
06-26-2011, 10:19
As I read some of the posts I have flashbacks of times I've seen people washing themselves, their cookware, their pets, their cloths in streams/ponds using soaps. The worst time was a guy dumping a pot of leftover food into a creek and saying "fish need to eat too", then proceeded to wash the pot. yuk yuk yuk
hikerboy57
06-26-2011, 11:10
Theres an article in this months AMC outdoors issue regarding hygiene and LNT principles. they advise against soap in the backcountry. anywhere. they do advocate keeping your hands as clean as possible, but by rinsing with plain water as well as using hand sanitizer. Not sharing food from any bag(instead pour it out into hands) and not sharing cookwear , especially knives.biodregradable soap is meant for soil to break it down over time. all soaps contain nitrogen which can be harmful to plant life. keep the soap for town, but keep your hands clean.
all soaps contain nitrogen which can be harmful to plant life.
I thought that nitrogen was a fertilizer.
Panzer
hikerboy57
06-26-2011, 11:43
It is, but it works both ways,its harmful to fish and aquatic life, and can promote growth which favors one species over another. runoff from overfertilized golf courses on Long island is a big problem with runoff.
hikerboy57
06-26-2011, 12:36
I just want to add that this changes if you plan on being in the backcountry for an extended period of time. thrus are generally in town every 4or 5 days, so you can leave the soap for town. If you're going to be out longer, use biodegradable soap as sparingly as possible and dont rinse in or near water sources.LNT is just a set of guidelines, not a religion, meant to reduce your impact on the environment, not eliminate it.