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wvgrinder
09-16-2010, 14:49
I didn't treat or filter my water on my recent LT hike-and never have. I feel that my luck might run out though. I'm thinking of using bleach. Can anyone recommend how much to use per liter?

Serial 07
09-16-2010, 15:16
gross...why?

leaftye
09-16-2010, 15:33
Most people say about 4 drops per liter. I believe most of the disaster aid organizations around the world recommend about the same. The journals I've read say bleach doesn't do anything until it's about 1 mg per liter. That would be about 25 drops, which is crazy, insomuch as I'm not going to count out 100 drops to treat a gallon. Adding too much bleach results in a different reaction with some nitrogen based molecules that results in a bad taste...I don't remember if it's bad for your health....I'm still trying to find that book again so I can confirm that and other info.

IronGutsTommy
09-16-2010, 15:37
just flush it out well after bleaching or just use a heavy concentrate of aquamira. some bladders openings are big enough to get a hand in there and go to town on the insides. if thats the case, simple dish soap will be fine

wvgrinder
09-16-2010, 15:45
gross...why?

It's cheap, effective, cheap, not bad tasting, cheap, lightweight, and cheap. ;)

Spokes
09-16-2010, 17:35
Here's a handy table (http://www.doh.wa.gov/phepr/handbook/purify.htm) listing the recommended number of drops. Always check the percentage of chlorine on the container since some "cheaper" brands tend to be lower than the recommended 5-6% solution.

Remember, you'll have to wait 30 or 60 minutes before consumption depending on turbidity and temperature when using bleach.

skinewmexico
09-16-2010, 18:08
gross...why?

Probably the widest used water purifier in cities in the US.

Llama Legs
09-16-2010, 18:13
Unscented standard laundry bleach - 2 to 4 drops per liter. Clean, clear water I've always used 2 drops. Questionable sources, 4 drops. Just like tap water - it's good and it's cheap. No problems in 35 years and I seldom have waited for an official 30 minutes. I still pack a filter in Florida, since the water is usually loaded with sea monkeys.

IronGutsTommy
09-18-2010, 00:30
but the sea monkeys are so cute as they do circus stunts. at least thats what all the comic books tell me

JAK
09-18-2010, 07:13
I heard that whens its really cold you can use bleach to soften your tires.
Seems rather sketchy. It might have been my Uncle Bill. Yeah, I think it was.

Never mind.

leaftye
09-21-2010, 20:16
I think it's used to aid in smokey burnouts....or keeping mosquitoes away.

Moose2001
09-21-2010, 21:08
Bleach isn't as effective as many say it is. Here's a link to a CDC website that discusses issues with boiling, bleach, filtering, clorine dioxide.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

The biggest issue with bleach is it does a poor job of killing both Cryptosporidium and Giardia:
■Disinfection with iodine or chlorine is not effective in killing Cryptosporidium;
■Disinfection with iodine or chlorine has a low to moderate effectiveness in killing Giardia;

Your decsion on what to carry and use.

Spokes
09-21-2010, 21:56
Bleach isn't as effective as many say it is. Here's a link to a CDC website that discusses issues with boiling, bleach, filtering, chlorine dioxide.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

The biggest issue with bleach is it does a poor job of killing both Cryptosporidium and Giardia:
■Disinfection with iodine or chlorine is not effective in killing Cryptosporidium;
■Disinfection with iodine or chlorine has a low to moderate effectiveness in killing Giardia;

Your decision on what to carry and use.

The problem is most people are constantly confusing Chlorine and Chlorine Dioxide. They are two very different substances.

Be sure to read the CDC link carefully.

BTW, "Disinfection with chlorine dioxide has a high effectiveness in killing Giardia"

The Old Fhart
09-21-2010, 22:22
Spokes-"The problem is most people are constantly confusing Chlorine and Chlorine Dioxide. They are two very different substances.

Be sure to read the CDC link carefully.

BTW, "Disinfection with chlorine dioxide has a high effectiveness in killing Giardia""No matter how many times this is pointed out, people will continue to confuse the two.

Let's hope that before they consider adding them to water, people know the difference between sodium (Na, metallic sodium) and sodium chloride or NaCl, table salt.:eek:

mudhead
09-22-2010, 10:48
No matter how many times this is pointed out, people will continue to confuse the two.

Let's hope that before they consider adding them to water, people know the difference between sodium (Na, metallic sodium) and sodium chloride or NaCl, table salt.:eek:

Man but that burns.

mkmangold
09-22-2010, 23:40
No matter how many times this is pointed out, people will continue to confuse the two.

Let's hope that before they consider adding them to water, people know the difference between sodium (Na, metallic sodium) and sodium chloride or NaCl, table salt.:eek:

Ow.

I've asked this before and still don't have an answer: can the chlorine used to treat pools be used to treat drinking water? If so, how much powder to how much water?

fiddlehead
09-23-2010, 07:43
Didn't read all the replies but, i use bleach when I think the water is bad.
Amount depends on the temp of the water. (and how dirty i think it is)
Normally, i don't treat. especially if it is a seep and no one above me. (AT usually)

If i do treat, i use 1 drop per litre and wait 15-20 minutes.
If the water is really cold, (and i think it is bad) i use 2 drops.

I have never gotten sick using this method.
My brother ran a school trip down the Amazon river about 15 years ago.
They added a capful of bleach to a 55 gallon drum of river water (brownish) and no one got sick.
The naysayers don't like to hear that but, they weren't there.

Spokes
09-23-2010, 08:16
Ow.

I've asked this before and still don't have an answer: can the chlorine used to treat pools be used to treat drinking water? If so, how much powder to how much water?


Google "emergency drinking water disinfection procedures" and you'll find several pdf files on the subject.

Using granular calcium hypochlorite (HTH) is dangerous and more suiteable for disinfecting large water supplies- usually 12.5 gallons and greater.

Chance09
09-26-2010, 07:42
i use 1 drop per liter, two if it's gross. More than that and I don't want to drink the water due to taste. I seldom filter and just carry bleach as a backup in a little .15 oz dropper I got at a candy store that had a breath freshening solution in it.

Trailbender
09-26-2010, 08:47
Here's a handy table (http://www.doh.wa.gov/phepr/handbook/purify.htm) listing the recommended number of drops. Always check the percentage of chlorine on the container since some "cheaper" brands tend to be lower than the recommended 5-6% solution.

Remember, you'll have to wait 30 or 60 minutes before consumption depending on turbidity and temperature when using bleach.

I thru hiked with a guy who had done waste water treatment for 30 years. He said 10-15 minutes with bleach was fine if the water is clear. I used bleach my whole thru with no issues.

scott bonder
09-29-2010, 15:11
When I was in the Marine Corps we were told that bleach was NOT as effective as good filtration or iodine tabs. No idea whether true or not, but that was the party line.

Spokes
09-29-2010, 16:34
I'm surprised no one has mentioned using simple drugstore bought Tincture of Iodine (2% solution) to treat water. Guess a lot of people don't like the taste.

Here's what the CDC has to say about it:

Tincture of Iodine - measure out your dose to water.

1. If using tincture of iodine 2% solution, add 5 drops to a Liter or Quart of clear water. If the water is cloudy, add 10 drops per Liter or Quart. (Note: 20 drops=1 ml.)

2. Allow the water to stand for 30 minutes before drinking when the water temperature is at least 25C (77F). Increase the standing time for colder water: (e.g., for each 10 less than 25C (77F), allow the water to stand for double the time before drinking it.

Panzer1
09-29-2010, 19:54
The reason the CDC tells people to use plain bleach to treat water is because so many people can be expected to have plain bleach in their house, not because it is effective.

There is no reason for the CDC to advise people to use a backpacker type water filter because most people are not backpackers and wouldn't have a backpack type water filter or iodine pills for that matter.

Also keep in mind that if you use bleach it should not have any perfumes or other additives. It should be just plain bleach.

Also keep in mind that bleach comes in different concentrations which is not normally marked on the container.

Also, if bleach is exposed to sunlight it can loose some of its effectiveness and you won't know.

Of all the things that you could treat water with, bleach is the cheapest but not the best. If you are all out of money then use bleach, otherwise there are many other treatments that are better.

Panzer

Franco
09-30-2010, 20:50
"I'm surprised no one has mentioned using simple drugstore bought Tincture of Iodine (2% solution) to treat water. Guess a lot of people don't like the taste."


The taste can be masked by adding some ascorbic acid. That changes iodine into iodate ion.
However some people have allergic reactions to iodine. The symptoms are heavy breathing and or swelling of the tongue/troat.
Franco

Trailbender
10-02-2010, 10:56
The reason the CDC tells people to use plain bleach to treat water is because so many people can be expected to have plain bleach in their house, not because it is effective.

There is no reason for the CDC to advise people to use a backpacker type water filter because most people are not backpackers and wouldn't have a backpack type water filter or iodine pills for that matter.

Also keep in mind that if you use bleach it should not have any perfumes or other additives. It should be just plain bleach.

Also keep in mind that bleach comes in different concentrations which is not normally marked on the container.

Also, if bleach is exposed to sunlight it can loose some of its effectiveness and you won't know.

Of all the things that you could treat water with, bleach is the cheapest but not the best. If you are all out of money then use bleach, otherwise there are many other treatments that are better.

Panzer

It is the best combination, though. It is light and cheap, effective enough, and simple to use. Aquamira isn't much better, and it costs a lot more.

beakerman
10-03-2010, 21:19
Ow.

I've asked this before and still don't have an answer: can the chlorine used to treat pools be used to treat drinking water? If so, how much powder to how much water?

Coming from a water treatment/chemistry background the "chlorinating agent" used in most back yard pools is effectively the dry form of what you get in your bleach bottle. I will add this caveat though...assuming you are indeed talking about a chlorination system not a bromination system.

Most public water systems still use chlorination for disinfecting the water stream. This is always done after clarification...that is after all the muck is precipitated out of the water. This is done it increase the efficiency of the chlorination. Otherwise it will all be consumed in the reaction with the dirt in the water.

swjohnsey
10-19-2010, 22:36
Chlorine is chlorine and is what is used to purify probably 90% of America's drinking water. The cheapest sorce is household bleach. You are looking for residual cholorine but difficult to test on the trail. A little too much won't hurt anything or everyone who has swallowed pool water would be dead.

For clear water 1 drop per pint, eight drops per gallon. For cloudy water two drops per pint. Let set for 30 minutes, longer if the water is very cold.

Moose2001
10-19-2010, 22:40
Chlorine is chlorine and is what is used to purify probably 90% of America's drinking water. The cheapest sorce is household bleach. You are looking for residual cholorine but difficult to test on the trail. A little too much won't hurt anything or everyone who has swallowed pool water would be dead.

For clear water 1 drop per pint, eight drops per gallon. For cloudy water two drops per pint. Let set for 30 minutes, longer if the water is very cold.

Sorry....but that's wrong. What is used in drinking water is chlorine dioxide...which is the same thing as Aquamira. Bleach is a totally different chemical. Bleach is not effective in killing the "bugs" that hikers worry most about.

Here's the straight information about what's what.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

mweinstone
10-19-2010, 22:45
another foolish thread. in my humble opinion. a:your answer is on the web. b; your luck running out? umm. hello? earth calling...yes ,,,we have god on the line ,...will you accept the charges?.....go ahead with your call sir......yes,...this is god....i have a question for the poster who feels his water needs bleach. my question is,...how bout i dump some bleach in all the earths water and you stop worrying about keeping water clean . sokay?onderbar.we start tommorow. tomorow when you wake. all the earths dirty water will have bleach in it. so if you taste bleach,, your drinking safe water. and if you dont taste bleach, your drinking safe water. work for you?

Moose2001
10-19-2010, 22:51
another foolish thread. in my humble opinion. a:your answer is on the web. b; your luck running out? umm. hello? earth calling...yes ,,,we have god on the line ,...will you accept the charges?.....go ahead with your call sir......yes,...this is god....i have a question for the poster who feels his water needs bleach. my question is,...how bout i dump some bleach in all the earths water and you stop worrying about keeping water clean . sokay?onderbar.we start tommorow. tomorow when you wake. all the earths dirty water will have bleach in it. so if you taste bleach,, your drinking safe water. and if you dont taste bleach, your drinking safe water. work for you?

Is there some reason why you can't be constructive?

The Old Fhart
10-19-2010, 22:55
Moose2001-"Sorry....but that's wrong. What is used in drinking water is chlorine dioxide...which is the same thing as Aquamira. Bleach is a totally different chemical. Bleach is not effective in killing the "bugs" that hikers worry most about."Moose2001, I know you posted this correct information a month ago in this thread and I pointed out 2 posts later that
"No matter how many times this is pointed out, people will continue to confuse the two."swjohnsey, sometimes it pays to read all the posts in a thread, not just the last few.;)

mweinstone
10-19-2010, 22:57
this site is overun with foolish silly meaningless wannabee folks who want their freedoms snatched so they can stop thinking. free speech would destroy this site and make a new one so much better the name whiteblaze would never be heard again. the hiking community is messed up bad and its not cool to mention hear or in the privacy of hikers ears. the trail is doomed. talk to me when yall get off your trip. illbe the appalachian trails supporter. not its distorter. bad info here on this site. it presents the image to newbees the trails full of yuppy bossy creaps with sick weird distorted uninformed ideas on trails and no real ability to even police their own trash. yall messed.

StormBird
10-19-2010, 23:08
Just want to add my name to the tally of hikers that use bleach. I used just plain ol' household bleach for about 2,000 miles of my thru hike. 1-3 drops per liter and I never had a problem.

Good luck in your search and thanks to all that posted information backed up by research.

Moose2001
10-19-2010, 23:09
this site is overun with foolish silly meaningless wannabee folks who want their freedoms snatched so they can stop thinking. free speech would destroy this site and make a new one so much better the name whiteblaze would never be heard again. the hiking community is messed up bad and its not cool to mention hear or in the privacy of hikers ears. the trail is doomed. talk to me when yall get off your trip. illbe the appalachian trails supporter. not its distorter. bad info here on this site. it presents the image to newbees the trails full of yuppy bossy creaps with sick weird distorted uninformed ideas on trails and no real ability to even police their own trash. yall messed.

If you hate this site so much.....why do you frequent it so? Be constructive instead of rambling on about nothing meaningful.

weedeater64
11-16-2010, 18:59
Well this has been very helpful.

For those of you who don't recognize it, that is sarcasm.

runfifty
11-16-2010, 19:40
Chlorine is indeed what is used to disinfect most public water supplies. Some use chlorine dioxide (mostly larger systems), but they are in the minority. Chlorine is effective only when the water is clean, without turbidity. When there are even very small particles in the water, such as sand, dirt, leaf bits etc., the bacteria can shelter in the particles and not be killed by the chlorine.
Chlorine also needs a long time to kill giardia and cryptosporidium as well as losing strength over time, particularly in warm weather. You might well get away with using chlorine on the AT if you're somewhat careful about the source water you choose, but I felt a lot safer using Aquamira.

swjohnsey
11-16-2010, 20:44
Aquamira is chlorine.

runfifty
11-16-2010, 21:51
If you read the links in some of the other posts, you will learn the difference between chlorine and chlorine dioxide.

The Old Fhart
11-16-2010, 22:40
swjohnsey-"Aquamira is chlorine." Once again it has been pointed out to you there is a difference between chlorine bleach (36% sodium hypochlorite (NaClO)) and the water chlorination plant chemical, chlorine dioxide. Please try to understand this.

From the Aquamira web site (http://www.aquamira.com/consumer/aquamira-water-treatment-drops/)-"...Aquamira Water Treatment Drops treat drinking water using chlorine dioxide."

swjohnsey
11-17-2010, 16:29
Once again it has been pointed out to you there is a difference between chlorine bleach (36% sodium hypochlorite (NaClO)) and the water chlorination plant chemical, chlorine dioxide. Please try to understand this.

From the Aquamira web site (http://www.aquamira.com/consumer/aquamira-water-treatment-drops/)-"...Aquamira Water Treatment Drops treat drinking water using chlorine dioxide."

Both disassocitate into chlorine ion when introduced into water.

swjohnsey
11-17-2010, 16:41
Only anecdotal but I drank Mississippi River water for 2 1/2 months treated only with chlorine bleach. Started out with a Katadyn Pocket filter. Turned out to be a lot of work considering how often it had to be cleaned. Drank ditch water for about 20 years as a LRRP treated with water purification tablets (iodine). Never had a water related illness.

mkmangold
11-17-2010, 16:49
Just one question: is there a difference between chlorine dioxide and chlorine bleach?

Trailbender
11-17-2010, 19:06
Once again it has been pointed out to you there is a difference between chlorine bleach (36% sodium hypochlorite (NaClO)) and the water chlorination plant chemical, chlorine dioxide. Please try to understand this.

From the Aquamira web site (http://www.aquamira.com/consumer/aquamira-water-treatment-drops/)-"...Aquamira Water Treatment Drops treat drinking water using chlorine dioxide."

Of course, the Aquamira site is going to say this. They want you to buy their stuff when regular bleach will do the job. It is all a huge scam.