View Full Version : how much money do you make?
litespeedlujak
09-21-2010, 12:34
I recently was involved in a discussion with a guy concerning whether people who hike the AT are people who have a lot of money. This guy said "only people with a lot of money can take off like that and not work. I agree with him, but only so far. I say the persons lifestyle dictates whether someone is able to take off for an extended amount of time. Having the house paid off and not eating out goes quite a ways in helping out. I once read about a couple in Canada who dedicate their lives to canoeing and writing about their adventures. They live in a little 20x 16 foot cabin.My wife and I make about $35,000 a year. Any thoughts?
This guy said "only people with a lot of money can take off like that and not work.
When I see statements like that I smell the beginnings of an excuse or someone who doesn't actually understand the vast economic range of hikers who somehow MAKE IT ABLE FOR THEMSELVES TO HIKE!
Prioritizing and organizing my lifestyle, which sometimes means I live outside of societal norms, are the primary reasons why I'm able to hike as much as I do.
generoll
09-21-2010, 12:47
working for wages, high or low limits how much time you can take off to devote to thru hiking. I'd guess that most through hikers are making no money. How they saved up for or financed their adventure probably says more about them then it does about the economy in general. FWIW, most of the thru-hikers I've met have either been just out of college or retired. Might be a few in the middle, but not many. Kids and careers tend to crowd out 6 month long departures from everyday life.
I saved up a lot of money. I was also making a lot of money while I saved it. I had an above median income, no children, no debt, no house, no car payments and was making more than the average male head of household, yet living like someone on minimum wage. Bought my clothes at the thrift store or at Macy's on sale. Went hiking on weekends (free activity). Was able to save up a whole year's worth of my salary which was actually equivalent to about 4 years worth of living expenses.
Now I make only a little more than half what I did back then, but my bank account is growing again, although slower than last time. Shop now at the thrift store and not Macy's anymore. Still no car or house payments. Managed to get a rent reduction.
Frugality is the key. Not money as much as money management. NO DEBT! Ever. There is nothing that is worth going into debt if your priority in life is freedom to hike.
i disagree with the comment the guy you spoke with, made. thats a HUGE generalization, and many hikers choose to do the hike between college and "real life". You dont have to make a lot of money to do it either...with the right prep you can do it for a few grand which just requires some saving...my gues would be that the majority are actually far from monetary wealth.
have you ever seen the PBS documentary "Alone in the Wilderness"? great doc and story of a guy who was about 50, who went to alaska, picked out a perfect spot of land and built a log cabin by hand with very few tools, no power tools at all...pretty cool...i think that would be a great way to live life, but technology also intrigues me and i dont think i could give up the life i have now. an even mix is best i think..that being said, i make quite a bit and enjoy having stability as well as flexibility to buy what i want.
flemdawg1
09-21-2010, 13:37
have you ever seen the PBS documentary "Alone in the Wilderness"? great doc and story of a guy who was about 50, who went to alaska, picked out a perfect spot of land and built a log cabin by hand with very few tools, no power tools at all...pretty cool...i think that would be a great way to live life, but technology also intrigues me and i dont think i could give up the life i have now. an even mix is best i think..that being said, i make quite a bit and enjoy having stability as well as flexibility to buy what i want.
or read the book
http://www.amazon.com/One-Mans-Wilderness-Alaskan-Annivers/dp/0882405136/ref=pd_sim_d_1
or read the book
http://www.amazon.com/One-Mans-Wilderness-Alaskan-Annivers/dp/0882405136/ref=pd_sim_d_1
or that too, also great option
Pedaling Fool
09-21-2010, 13:44
Just post your at-home budget, we'll get you straightened out financially:D
Old Hiker
09-21-2010, 13:54
I agree with SBHikes. Frugality is the key - do you need those luxuries? Like my first First Sgt told us: you run into debt and crawl out.
Pay yourself 1st, then everyone else. You'd be surprised at what you can take out of your take-home pay and not miss after a while.
A lot of good and wise cooments made, but instead of trying to pigeon hole or characterize the avg. person, avg income, typical situation of a thru-hiker, I find it infinitely more helpful too focus on how people acheive their goals/dreams. When I notice someone who has avheived something I would also like to acheive, I look for, not someone who is in the exact same sitiuation as me, because it's highly unlikely that any two people are in the exact same situation in life, but the mindset of these high acheiving individuals. How do they get high quality things done? What does that take? How have they found solutions to their issues, AND, this does not mean they are in the exact same situation as me. I ask myself, "have I also acheived things in the past that were initially considered difficult or impossible?" These are the solution minded questions I ask of myself. What's typical of those that constantly and consistently live their dreams while at the same time contibute to the lives of others?
garlic08
09-21-2010, 14:39
...Frugality is the key. Not money as much as money management. NO DEBT! Ever. There is nothing that is worth going into debt if your priority in life is freedom to hike.
Exactly. No debt. The key for me was working my ass off for 15 years and paying the house off early. After the house was free and clear, I suddenly had little need for that much income, so I quit working and went hiking. Hiking taught me how to live even more frugally, so I haven't needed to go back to work yet.
I hitched a ride in Dunsmuir, CA on the PCT from an classy older gent in a Cadillac. He asked what I did for a living. I had just quit my electrical engineering job, so that's what I told him. He nodded and said most hikers he gives rides to (quite a few, it sounded like) were professionals on sabbatical, with lots of money, and they tended to spend money in town (he was local businessman). That was his take. I think maybe he only picked up older, professional looking people so his sample may have been skewed.
skinewmexico
09-21-2010, 14:43
Sometimes it's harder for people who make a lot of money to get time off. They just have too many plates in the air they have to keep spinning.
Chenango
09-21-2010, 14:44
Sometimes it's harder for people who make a lot of money to get time off. They just have too many plates in the air they have to keep spinning.
True! That is why I retired in June when the opportunity arose. Live is too short to spend it always working.
ebandlam
09-21-2010, 14:56
"only people with a lot of money can take off like that and not work."
A lot of money is a relative term. What I thought of as "lot of money" back when I was 24 does not hold true today - even accounting for inflation.
Yes, living without debt is one option. But once children come into the picture, there is a desire to give them a better life than what you have gone through. This brings up a house, a car, PSPs, XBOXs, etc. This quickly piles up. But all this boils down to priorities. What do you stand today and where do you wish to stand tomorrow.
If your priority is hiking (and it seems to be for a whole lot of WB members) then, you work hard to bring those priorities to fruition.
Thanks
neighbor dave
09-21-2010, 14:59
when ya aint got nothin', ya got nothin' to lose, you're invisible, no secrets to conceal, how does it feel?
I'll 3rd the "No Debt" option but it's also not a reality for most families, especially families with young children that are just getting established.
Before you can work your butt off to pay off your mortgage you have to get one. Same with the car.
The era of saving up cash to make a big ticket purchase like grandpa did is over and never coming back.
And don't forget - credit, used wisely, is an excellent tool. I use other peoples money as often as I can if it costs less than using my own. It is the irresponsible use of credit that gets people in trouble.
Things can change quickly. I'm 49 and hope to retire in the next few years. We have zero debt, own 2 homes and a nice chunk of mountian property. But the reality is that we could lose it all and be back in debt in the blink of an eye. What I'm trying to say is not to take anything for granted.
Kids don't need XBoxes. I didn't have one. Kids can do a lot with a stick and a piece of string. Or a box of old clothes to play dress-up. Or butterflies in the back yard. They don't need their crap entombed for all eternity with a diaper genie or so many crappy plastic toys you can't even see the floor.
My mother sewed my clothes and cooked from scratch. She used cloth diapers. She also worked at a legal firm. She also gave us piano lessons and dance lessons. We weren't deprived. Sure I wailed and moaned about not having cool stuff, but I survived just fine.
Even with children you have to get your priorities straight.
Prettywoman0172
09-21-2010, 15:48
Kids don't need XBoxes. I didn't have one. Kids can do a lot with a stick and a piece of string. Or a box of old clothes to play dress-up. Or butterflies in the back yard. They don't need their crap entombed for all eternity with a diaper genie or so many crappy plastic toys you can't even see the floor.
My mother sewed my clothes and cooked from scratch. She used cloth diapers. She also worked at a legal firm. She also gave us piano lessons and dance lessons. We weren't deprived. Sure I wailed and moaned about not having cool stuff, but I survived just fine.
Even with children you have to get your priorities straight.
Agree 100%
Stir Fry
09-21-2010, 15:54
My option is to wait untill I retire, Oct. 2013. Starting My thur in Mar. 2014. I quit smooking 7 years ago and save what I was smoking away. $4,000 in the hiking acount now should be another $4,000 by the time I start. Wife will be fine with my retirement, and only a house payment and utilities to pay. Hope I can hike any kind of hike I want when the time comes. I like staying at B&B's and I hope my wife can visit often.
when ya aint got nothin', ya got nothin' to lose, you're invisible, no secrets to conceal, how does it feel?
and nobody has ever taught you how to live out on the trail and now you're gonna have to get used to it. :D
Danielsen
09-21-2010, 16:08
I'll reiterate the whole "no debt" thing.
How much do I make? I'd classify it as "not enough." :p Next week I stop dishwashing and start cooking, however, so that will change.
There seems to be a similar attitude that all the young backpackers on the international travel circuit are rich kids with trust funds. My best friend and I each spent 5 months working (myself in a peanut butter factory :D ) to fund a trip to the andes last winter, and I can tell you we weren't the only ones who had worked our ways to get there. In the meantime, while saving for the trip, food, internet and rent were pretty much the only expenditures. Food can be cheap if you're smart about it, internet can be cheap if you're sharing one wireless connection with several housemates, and rent can be cheap if it's shared as well.
So you can potentially reduce your essential living food, rent, and maybe internet. Add healthcare if you don't have coverage through your job. After you deduct those expenses from even what you make from a 35-hour-a-week job at minimum wage, you can put away a few hundred in savings, at the least, every month.
Currently I'm just paying for food, and that only because I'm particular. :p Currently working 25 hours a week at minimum wage, I still manage to put at least $100 in savings weekly. Half a year of that translates to about $2500 in savings, which is enough for a frugal thru-hike. My current plan is for at least another year of this, which will fund a trip to Annapurna and maybe an AT thru. After that, maybe work a little more. Maybe go back to being homeless. ;)
Then again, my priorities in regard to things like a family or career may be a bit different from most. Either way, the deal is that if something like a thru-hike matters enough to you, no matter what your income level is you should be able to find a way to manage it. If you've got a lot of responsibilities like kids or loans or a mortgage it may take a while, but if you put a little bit away consistently it'll grow, and if you avoid debt you won't have to give it away.
Odd Man Out
09-21-2010, 16:10
I suspect people with large incomes also tend to have large expenses to pay for all the "necessities" of life. While hiking the trail if you can cancel or cut way back on a bunch of monthly expenses, such as your cable TV, phone, cell phone, gasoline, utility, car insurance, eating in nice restaurants, internet service, etc..., you might even make a profit by living simply for 4 or 5 months.
Jonnycat
09-21-2010, 17:27
One million dollars
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3017/onemilliondollars.jpg
I have never met a distance hiker that I would figure their net worth at several million although I expect there to be a few. Most folks who value money enough to get to that level cannot stop when they have plenty to live out their life. I have met many hikers who only work long enough to fund their next hike and carry their net worth in a pack
chiefiepoo
09-21-2010, 18:24
Freedom's just another word for 'nuthin left to loose.
janis joplin 1971
I'm almost free, happily
garlic08
09-21-2010, 18:35
...The era of saving up cash to make a big ticket purchase like grandpa did is over and never coming back...
I beg to differ. I did it (in the '90s) and I'm not that old. And I'm not the only one. There's a guy on the radio named Dave Ramsey who espouses the idea even in this economy. I think his tag line is something like "The paid-off home mortgage has replaced the BMW as the new status symbol."
...you might even make a profit by living simply for 4 or 5 months.
This is exactly the case with a long-time hiking partner of mine. He's a retired mechanical engineer with a nice pension and a nice living arrangement--no rent when he's not there. So he comes out ahead when he's hiking. Lucky guy.
I didn't meet anyone in 1993 that appeared very wealthy to me. Many were kids between college and first jobs, or middle aged people with flexible easily replaced jobs, like construction work, teaching and nursing.
I had retired two years earlier. My wife still worked in a middle income elected office. I had no savings, other than a house that was paid for, middle income social security, and a pretty tiny pension from the newspaper I retired from.
The only poverty level folks were 4 or 5 kids who had been living on the streets before heading north from Springer. I don't know the source of their funds, but they hiked very frugally.
Weary
Yeah, I think I met a lot more people who didn't have a place to live than I did people with condos in Vail or whatever.
If you could just get rid of rent, that would really fund a great life. Rent is the bane of existence. Once I got out on the trail I realized the stupidest thing in the world was paying to sleep somewhere.
I know we have mentioned money many times on this thread, and that is the original topic, and of course it takes resources, like money, to hike. I have said that many times on other threads. That is not, however, the complete story. What I see is more common among those thru-hikers I've met, rather than being financially wealthy, is that they ALL have found a way to make their dreams and ideas a reality rather than just talk about having BIG dreams and BIG ideas. They ALL have taken action, massive action in many incidences! Few go about taking such action in exactly the same way!
I meet many wonderful people who have excellent, grand, innovative, inspiring, and even possibly world changing dreams and ideas. However, few take action on making dreams and ideas a reality.
For example, I have met and heard of long distance hikers who were: CEOs of major corporations(certainly financially able to hike, but with a huge amount of personal and time consuming responsibilities), two Oscar winning actors(one an actress, one a writer, both with major committments at the height of their careers), professional athletes, owners of professional sports teams, practicing doctors and lawyers, a single parent of 7 young children, recent divorces, active mothers/fathers with young families and BIG financial committments, drug addicts(I hiked the AT in 2006 with two thru-hikers, one quitting heroin, one quitting a crack cocaine addiction), several homeless dirt poor succesful thru-hikers, a 82 yr old thru-hiker, a 14 yr old thru-hiker, many foreign thru-hikers, blind thru-hikers, those with BIG medical or handicapped issues, etc etc etc. I could go on and on, but my pt is that all these hikers FOUND A WAY to MAKE THEIR DREAMS AND IDEAS A REALITY despite having to surmount the odds and NOT GIVING INTO WHY THEY COULD NOT HIKE!
If and when I want to quit or my mind wanders to excuses why I can't I think of ALL these people I've met or heard of. I allow their triumphs to inspire me, my life, and my hikes! And, hopefully, as I continue to live my life I can demonstrate the same fortitude and share it with others to inspire them! It's a most powerful motivator on all my hikes!
Rent is the bane of existence.
Seriously! You become a slave just to have a roof over your head. My last place in Asheville was 750 a month! I hardly had enough money to eat. I wish I could just live on the trail.
Lone Wolf
09-21-2010, 19:46
Seriously! My last place in Asheville was 750 a month! I hardly had enough money to eat. I wish I could just live on the trail.
uhh....it's the price you pay to live around pseudo- hippies. you coulda lived 20 miles in any direction for much cheaper
hontassquirt
09-21-2010, 19:54
Kids don't need XBoxes. I didn't have one. Kids can do a lot with a stick and a piece of string. Or a box of old clothes to play dress-up. Or butterflies in the back yard. They don't need their crap entombed for all eternity with a diaper genie or so many crappy plastic toys you can't even see the floor.
My mother sewed my clothes and cooked from scratch. She used cloth diapers. She also worked at a legal firm. She also gave us piano lessons and dance lessons. We weren't deprived. Sure I wailed and moaned about not having cool stuff, but I survived just fine.
Even with children you have to get your priorities straight.
Wow! If that's not the most judgemental thing I've heard in a long time.
uhh....it's the price you pay to live around pseudo- hippies. you coulda lived 20 miles in any direction for much cheaper
Oh MY! LOL!
Freedom's just another word for 'nuthin left to loose.
janis joplin 1971
I'm almost free, happily
No props to Kris Kristofferson? Or even Roger Miller?
No debt = a LOT of freedom. It worked for me on my thru-hike. No debt and some money tucked away from the Marine Corps, and I was good to go. Trust me, I wasn't making a lot of money, but I was definitely rich.
Skidsteer
09-21-2010, 20:32
Wow! If that's not the most judgemental thing I've heard in a long time.
So what?
She speaks the truth.
uhh....it's the price you pay to live around pseudo- hippies. you coulda lived 20 miles in any direction for much cheaper
Haha yeah I know. It was only for 6 months because it was so close to work.
Oh MY! LOL!
Oh jeez, it wasn't that funny.
ebandlam
09-21-2010, 20:53
Kids don't need XBoxes. I didn't have one. Kids can do a lot with a stick and a piece of string. Or a box of old clothes to play dress-up. Or butterflies in the back yard. They don't need their crap entombed for all eternity with a diaper genie or so many crappy plastic toys you can't even see the floor.
My mother sewed my clothes and cooked from scratch. She used cloth diapers. She also worked at a legal firm. She also gave us piano lessons and dance lessons. We weren't deprived. Sure I wailed and moaned about not having cool stuff, but I survived just fine.
Even with children you have to get your priorities straight.
Ms. Sbhikes.. I don't expect my kids to lead their lives as I did - I hope that they share the same values that I do. The fact that I didn't have a computer in 11th grade does not mean that I deprive my children of the same.. Times change and so do we. But that misses my point.
My point is that it is about priorities, each of our lives is driven by a different set of priorities. But if hiking is the #1 priority in one's life then they ought to and will find a way to make that happen. It has nothing to do with how much money they have or don't have.
I make decent money. And I live frugally. I also have no debt except a year left on a car loan (and I have been regretting taking it out since the day I signed the papers, never again). I don't have a TV, so no cable bill. I don't have a cell phone, only a land line for which I pay by the call. Cheap dial up service for internet access. I worked for the state of NY for almost 20 years so I have a pension and health insurance waiting for me when I retire. I do splurge on a good sized apartment to live near my family. I am lucky that when I was younger I planned ahead and managed to save and keep out of debt so I have the freedom to chuck it all and head out on a hike if I want to. But, hell, I worked hard for it, I deserve it.
I beg to differ. I did it (in the '90s) and I'm not that old. And I'm not the only one. There's a guy on the radio named Dave Ramsey who espouses the idea even in this economy. I think his tag line is something like "The paid-off home mortgage has replaced the BMW as the new status symbol.".
That's a big deal, congratulations!
Enough to know that what you trade to get the money is far more valuable.
Beyond a basic, simple life it's all just ego. My grandpa told me that 30 years ago. Sure wish I had listened...
Skidsteer
09-21-2010, 21:27
.................................................. ....
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me too...
working for wages, high or low limits how much time you can take off to devote to thru hiking. I'd guess that most through hikers are making no money. How they saved up for or financed their adventure probably says more about them then it does about the economy in general. FWIW, most of the thru-hikers I've met have either been just out of college or retired. Might be a few in the middle, but not many. Kids and careers tend to crowd out 6 month long departures from everyday life.
'bout right. Nobody's making anything while thru-hiking.
Ms. Sbhikes.. I don't expect my kids to lead their lives as I did - I hope that they share the same values that I do. The fact that I didn't have a computer in 11th grade does not mean that I deprive my children of the same.. Times change and so do we. But that misses my point.
My point is that it is about priorities, each of our lives is driven by a different set of priorities. But if hiking is the #1 priority in one's life then they ought to and will find a way to make that happen. It has nothing to do with how much money they have or don't have.
That's what I was saying. Someone said it's really hard to be frugal when you have kids. You gotta buy them XBoxes or whatever. You do? Seriously? Can't they play computer games in the computer center at school (or on their own computer at home)? Do they really need Nikes and diaper genies? I begged my mom for Chemin-de-fer and Ditto jeans (ha ha, who even remembers those?) but instead she sewed my clothes. I cried and cried but I lived through it. Kids will live through not having an Xbox or whatever the "must have" toy of the year is.
Priorities is exactly what I'm saying, too.
As for saving up to buy in cash. You can still do that. I have never bought a car, but if I ever do, I'll pay cash. I bought a Vespa (well, more than one because I crashed) and even though my bank begged me to take out a loan instead (the darn things are pretty expensive, but not as expensive as paying interest), I wrote a check and paid in cash. Might not be able to do it with a house, but I could do it with a fridge or washing machine (did you know you can buy used ones???), a car, or something along those lines.
I've had a few loans, but what I've done is get loans with really small monthly payments and then pay twice or more the payments. I did that with my student loan and when it got close to the end, I wrote a big lump sum check and got rid of it. I could have taken 10 years to pay it off but I got rid of it in less than 5.
Too many people sleepwalk through life. They do what everybody else is doing. Most people would save up $5000 and buy something. But we dreamers go on a long hike. It's not all about money, either. I probably could have hiked at various times in my life, but it took getting over my fears to actually go ahead and do it. For some reason, I was most afraid of the resupply logistics. I was afraid until the first time I picked up my package in a post office. But by then the fear of never hiking the trail was greater than whatever else was holding me back, including the fear of ruining my chances at a decent career.
litespeedlujak
09-21-2010, 21:54
Great comments. I agree with what was said. My wife and I went to Kroger over the weekend. We picked up three fantastic riveted. They were on sale for $4.99 a pound. We had a baked potato with them. I'd say we spent $8.00 a piece to feed my wife, son and I. We also grilled 'em. I try not to sin and to do anything other than grill those tender cuts would've amounted to sin. I also asked my son to find a few sticks. So they had a bit of a nice smoky flavor. I'm pretty sure I saved at least half by doing it myself as opposed to the steakhouse. My driving habits have really slowed down over the past couple of years. I leave earlier for work and drive 45mph as opposed to 60 MPH. I've been wearing the same tennis shoes for two years. I take my lunch to work everyday. I live payday to payday. But its all fine. My wife has worked since she was 16 without ever taking off for more than a couple of short vacations. So she is now relaxing for about six months while we make it on my substitute teacher pay. I do ok. Ive taught the past 7 days. As for you Stirfry, I imagine my son and I will be breaking bread with you. We are hopeful to start our hike on Flagged Mountain, the southern end of the Pinhoti in Jan. 2014. I'll be happy to share some of our walnut Brownies with you. PEACE TO ALL.
litespeedlujak
09-21-2010, 21:55
Dang correction ribbon. Supposed to have said RIBEYES.
fredmugs
09-21-2010, 21:55
Exactly. No debt. The key for me was working my ass off for 15 years and paying the house off early. After the house was free and clear, I suddenly had little need for that much income, so I quit working and went hiking.
That's my 10 year plan. I turned 47 this year and my minimum retirement age is 56. I plan to finish section hiking the AT in 2011 or 2012 at the latest. My house will be paid off when I turn 51. From 51 to 56 I plan to start taking hiking trips out west scouting for places to retire to. Assuming I still have a job at 56 I will never have to work again and I'll be able to live somewhere reasonable where I can hike and bike all I want. Hell I may even try and thru hike the PCT.
It is all about priorities.
Danielsen
09-21-2010, 22:23
Rent is the bane of existence. Once I got out on the trail I realized the stupidest thing in the world was paying to sleep somewhere.
Even worse than paying for a roof over one's head (I've gone without) is the fact that so many normal, everyday things in society require you to have a home address. A lot of important things won't ship to you if you lack a home address, like a passport. It's hard to get a bank account or your identity verified without a home address. Heck, it's hard to get a JOB without a home address. Somewhat irritating that society's set up to make a pseudorequirement out of a long-term place of dwelling.
Walkintom
09-21-2010, 22:26
I recently was involved in a discussion with a guy concerning whether people who hike the AT are people who have a lot of money. This guy said "only people with a lot of money can take off like that and not work. I agree with him, but only so far. I say the persons lifestyle dictates whether someone is able to take off for an extended amount of time. Having the house paid off and not eating out goes quite a ways in helping out. I once read about a couple in Canada who dedicate their lives to canoeing and writing about their adventures. They live in a little 20x 16 foot cabin.My wife and I make about $35,000 a year. Any thoughts?
Anything you do has some sort of opportunity cost. I doubt that very many people who thru hike suffer from excessive remorse over that particular decision. Things like this are usually what people regret not doing. You only live once.
Personally, it's going to cost me a lot of money and some career advancement. I can do without both.
The Solemates
09-21-2010, 22:46
Seriously! You become a slave just to have a roof over your head. My last place in Asheville was 750 a month! I hardly had enough money to eat. I wish I could just live on the trail.
most people would only hope to have a payment that low. count your blessings. then go buy, and quit throwing your money away in rent.
Feral Bill
09-21-2010, 22:48
I am an Idaho teacher. Not much money there. I will thru hike, if ever, when I retire in a few years. Meanwhile there are many places to hike, kids at work and home who need me, plenty else to do, and no regrets. Others have different priorities. I wish them the best.
'bout right. Nobody's making anything while thru-hiking.
Not true! While hiking I wear a T-shirt advertising Cliff Bars. For every mile I hike Cliff Bars sends me a check for $1.00 per mile. Have you ever had a Cliff Bar? Ummm Good! Shameless promotion!
I've also heard that the government is about to unveil their new Outdoor Leadership and Back-to-Nature Stimulus Package where you get 10 cents for every mile you hike! It's supposed to stimulate jobs and decrease health care costs!
stranger
09-21-2010, 23:32
Appalachian Trail thru-hikers are wealthy? News to me, not in 1995, not in 2001, and certainly not my experience in 2008 either, ****...ever been to Trail Days or the Gathering!
I've never thru-hiked, however i've hiked for weeks on end with thru-hikers, and most of them struggled big time to scrounge up even 2-3 grand for a hike. Many of them, and I mean well over 80% were always concerned with money...running out of money.
Being able to take time off, to hike or to do whatever you want to do, has alot more to do with the choices you make than anything else. These choices include things like:
- attending expensive colleges
- getting married
- buying a house
- having children
- living outside your means
- etc...
If you buy a house...you have to pay a mortgage
If you have kids...you have to support them
If you put 15K on your credit card, you will have to pay back 25K
If you spend 140% of what your earn, you will have problems
In a few words...decisions and consequences, some people make better decisions than others, and their are consequences to each decision.
Wealthy hikers...that's the best haha
Even worse than paying for a roof over one's head (I've gone without) is the fact that so many normal, everyday things in society require you to have a home address. A lot of important things won't ship to you if you lack a home address, like a passport. It's hard to get a bank account or your identity verified without a home address. Heck, it's hard to get a JOB without a home address.
There are ways around all that my dear boy!
Somewhat irritating that society's set up to make a pseudorequirement out of a long-term place of dwelling.
Yes, MANY groups and individuals are taking note of that long-term place of dwelling. It's a key piece of info that many consider. It's listed right on your credit reports so someone in an office can make judgements about you!
My house cost $2,950 when I bought it in 1962. No bargain. I spent the next 20 years fixing it up and rebuilding it. The town assessors now think it's worth 100 times that. They're probably close to right. But it hasn't had much maintenance since I retired 20 years ago. I've spent my retirement years walking trails, maintaining trails, building trails, raising money for trails, raising money to buy land for trails.
I've been lucky. I enjoyed the last 30 years I spent earning a living. And I've enjoyed my retirement years. It's a nice feeling to know that some public lands that one has had a hand in creating are likely to be around for people to enjoy long after you're gone.
Weary www.matlt.org
Danielsen
09-22-2010, 01:00
Yes, MANY groups and individuals are taking note of that long-term place of dwelling. It's a key piece of info that many consider. It's listed right on your credit reports so someone in an office can make judgements about you!
Credit scores are a big one, since a lot of organizations verify your identity through credit-report providers like Experian. I remember trying to get verified with paypal and discovering that since I had never gone into debt (by taking out a loan or using a credit card), and therefore had no credit and no credit score, could not be verified as an existing and legitimate person without jumping through all sorts of ridiculous hoops first.
Dang correction ribbon. Supposed to have said RIBEYES.
Thanks for clarifying that. I was having a hard time figuring why you'd eat rivets!
Jayboflavin04
09-22-2010, 07:12
One million dollars
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3017/onemilliondollars.jpg
That"s "ONE MEEEELLLLLIIIOONNN"
Jayboflavin04
09-22-2010, 07:17
My house cost $2,950 when I bought it in 1962. No bargain. I spent the next 20 years fixing it up and rebuilding it. The town assessors now think it's worth 100 times that. They're probably close to right. But it hasn't had much maintenance since I retired 20 years ago. I've spent my retirement years walking trails, maintaining trails, building trails, raising money for trails, raising money to buy land for trails.
I've been lucky. I enjoyed the last 30 years I spent earning a living. And I've enjoyed my retirement years. It's a nice feeling to know that some public lands that one has had a hand in creating are likely to be around for people to enjoy long after you're gone.
Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)
Thank you!
This is a good topic and demonstrates well how far off-base the notion that thruhikers are "rich" truly is. The common thread is goal orientation. People that want to do something that requires a six month sabatical simply do what they have to do in order to make it work, which typically translates to a short-term sacrifice to enjoy a long-term benefit.
I'm glad to see so many people here among us on this forum that do understand what a trap debt really is, and that for most people, it is not necessary to live a good life.
In my case, I have no mortgage, no car payment, no credit card debt (thought I do use other people's money when it is cheaper than my own, I only use what I can pay off the following month without paying any interest), no wife, no children, etc. I also do not eat out very often (and if I do, it's a $10 pizza or the like), do not pay for cable/satellite TV, don't spend money on fancy clothes & jewelry, etc.
With that being said, I do own free and clear a home which I've divided into a triplex and now occupy 1/3 of it and rent the rest, a paid for 4x4 & two motorcycles, lots of electronics & computer equipment, tools, sports equipment, etc.
Plus, I just finished graduate school for the second time and now have both an MBA as well as a MSF. Now that I'm out of school, I work 70 hours a week on two jobs. My day job is working as a budget analyst for a state agency, and in the evenings I work from home as a financial advisor.
Bottom line, I accomplished this with hard work and refusing to pay usury. I live pretty comfortably, but anybody that sees me out in public would never think I'm wealthy. I drive an 8-year old truck and run around in Fruit of the Loom undershirts most of the time, meanwhile living in a triplex. I even let my friends think I rent my space in it.
I figure I'll work 70+ hours a week for about six more months while living on about 20% of my income like I have been for the past several years, and then quit both jobs and do my hike.
Granted I will be carrying pretty nice equipment, but I don't intend to spend a lot of money while I'm gone. And on the home front, my only bills will be cellphone and insurance. I'll even consider putting my stuff in storage and renting out my place for six months too. This way I won't be tempted to quit the hike because I'll have nowhere to return to for a while. (-:
So, my point is we all come from different situations, but doing a thruhike all boils down to how bad you want it, what you're willing to sacrifice, and how hard you're willing to work. It's just that simple. I don't know anyone born with a silver spoon in their mouth that's interested in doing something like a thruhike. Do you? I would expect that most folks who have it so easy wouldn't want to put forth the effort to walk 2,200 miles in the mountains just because they can.
fredmugs
09-22-2010, 09:35
It's nice knowing there a lot of people out there who are fiscally responsible. I thought I was the only one.
skinewmexico
09-22-2010, 09:42
It's nice knowing there a lot of people out there who are fiscally responsible. I thought I was the only one.
+1. But we should have known hikers are smarter than the average bear.
sevensixtwo187
09-22-2010, 09:44
Kids don't need XBoxes. I didn't have one. Kids can do a lot with a stick and a piece of string. Or a box of old clothes to play dress-up. Or butterflies in the back yard. They don't need their crap entombed for all eternity with a diaper genie or so many crappy plastic toys you can't even see the floor.
My mother sewed my clothes and cooked from scratch. She used cloth diapers. She also worked at a legal firm. She also gave us piano lessons and dance lessons. We weren't deprived. Sure I wailed and moaned about not having cool stuff, but I survived just fine.
Even with children you have to get your priorities straight.
Well stated and I couldn't agree more. But sometimes it is quite difficult in this day to make that a reality. But I really do think you are "spot on".
Most people are going to be married and/or have children. Having children under 18 or even 21 is going to trump thruhiking in most cases. As it should. If you have kids they should be your #1 priority.
So this leaves that most hikers are either recent HS/college graduates or retirees. There were hardly any people my age on the trail...the extreme minority.
I, personally, do not have children/husband/mortgage/student loans/massive credit card debt, but having these things are not necessarily the 'wrong' choice. I would imagine that having a young family practically begets debt.
Unfortunately when you are lurking in the regular (for lack of better words) world, living a perceived 'poor' lifestyle in order to hike later becomes a foreign language. I am 31 and I rent a small shot gun apartment. I share a (10 year old) car and I also take the bus/ride my bike which many find beneath them, I've had people express outright derision when it comes to that decision. People cannot understand why I will not adopt a pet (I'm an RVT, and it's inconceivable for people in my field to not have pets, understandably) so I can have freedom later on. The responsiblity of pets is the same as children IMHO, so, until I'm absolutely done traveling, I won't have any. Anyway, my point is, living like we do, after a certain age, will put you on the outs with society. You are likely not to have friends, or a social life. But it's up to you. I saw Henry Rollins many years ago, and I still remember a line he said..."Hey, I live like a piece of crap, but I get to do and see a lot of cool stuff." That's good enough for me.
Thru hikers are not wealthy. Often they are young and living in their parent's basement, or retired. But if you are b/t the ages of 25 and 65, most likely you are simply doing without a lot of things.
Right not I am not saving much because I am a student and living paycheck to paycheck since I do not work full time, but later on I'll be able to save more and go hiking again.
The idea of job bouncing does not appeal though and I don't know how many times I can do it in the long run.
Just my rambling thoughts.
Danielsen
09-22-2010, 10:23
+1. But we should have known hikers are smarter than the average bear.
Hmm. Bears seem to have figured out how to get along just fine without money. Who's really the more intelligent species? :-?
Danielsen
09-22-2010, 10:27
Unfortunately when you are lurking in the regular (for lack of better words) world, living a perceived 'poor' lifestyle in order to hike later becomes a foreign language. I am 31 and I rent a small shot gun apartment. I share a (10 year old) car and I also take the bus/ride my bike which many find beneath them, I've had people express outright derision when it comes to that decision. People cannot understand why I will not adopt a pet (I'm an RVT, and it's inconceivable for people in my field to not have pets, understandably) so I can have freedom later on. The responsiblity of pets is the same as children IMHO, so, until I'm absolutely done traveling, I won't have any. Anyway, my point is, living like we do, after a certain age, will put you on the outs with society. You are likely not to have friends, or a social life. But it's up to you. I saw Henry Rollins many years ago, and I still remember a line he said..."Hey, I live like a piece of crap, but I get to do and see a lot of cool stuff." That's good enough for me.
I'm sorry to hear that you get that sort of reaction from most of society. Do you think that could be affected by geography? I know a number of 30+ year-old people who live similarly to what you describe that are well-liked and socially active, and generally approved by their communities or even praised for their "different" lifestyle. The culture here in the US does of course differ to some degree by region so I wonder if some areas place more "expectation of conformity in lifestyle" on the individual than others?
Either way, there's got to be some group of folks less enchanted with the status-chasing lifestyle around for you to be friends with if you can find 'em, eh?
.....People cannot understand why I [I]will not adopt a pet (I'm an RVT, and it's inconceivable for people in my field to not have pets, understandably) so I can have freedom later on. .....
Google search:
Acronym Definition
RVT Royce Value Trust
RVT Registered Veterinary Technician
RVT Registered Vascular Technologist (American Registry of Diagnostic Medical Sonographers)
RVT Royal Vauxhall Tavern (UK)
RVT Renal Vein Thrombosis
RVT RV Trader (recreational vehicles)
RVT Remote Video Terminal
RVT Remote Visual Testing
RVT Regional Vocational Technical (high school)
RVT Right Ventricular Tachycardia
RVT Reliability Verification Test
RVT Radiation Verification Testing
RVT Requirements Verification and Testing
RVT Rotary Vestibular Test
RVT Recreational Vehicle Trader (website)
RVT Revalidation Testing
RVT Russian Vocab Tester
RVT Responsible Vendor Training (alcohol statute; Florida)
RVT Red Vein Thai
RVT Route Verification Test
I guessing Tilly is a number two.
Google search:
Acronym Definition
RVT Royce Value Trust
RVT Registered Veterinary Technician
RVT Registered Vascular Technologist (American Registry of Diagnostic Medical Sonographers)
RVT Royal Vauxhall Tavern (UK)
RVT Renal Vein Thrombosis
RVT RV Trader (recreational vehicles)
RVT Remote Video Terminal
RVT Remote Visual Testing
RVT Regional Vocational Technical (high school)
RVT Right Ventricular Tachycardia
RVT Reliability Verification Test
RVT Radiation Verification Testing
RVT Requirements Verification and Testing
RVT Rotary Vestibular Test
RVT Recreational Vehicle Trader (website)
RVT Revalidation Testing
RVT Russian Vocab Tester
RVT Responsible Vendor Training (alcohol statute; Florida)
RVT Red Vein Thai
RVT Route Verification Test
I guessing Tilly is a number two.
Good guess--although "Recreational Vehicle Trader" sounds kind of interesting...
I'm sorry to hear that you get that sort of reaction from most of society. Do you think that could be affected by geography? I know a number of 30+ year-old people who live similarly to what you describe that are well-liked and socially active, and generally approved by their communities or even praised for their "different" lifestyle. The culture here in the US does of course differ to some degree by region so I wonder if some areas place more "expectation of conformity in lifestyle" on the individual than others?
Either way, there's got to be some group of folks less enchanted with the status-chasing lifestyle around for you to be friends with if you can find 'em, eh?
Well, it probably is because of where I live. I don't want to speculate too much on that for risk of sounding rude or offensive. But it is.
Maybe I should move to Asheville where all the 'hippies' are (tho that would be very annoying.)
Maybe I should move to Asheville where all the 'hippies' are (tho that would be very annoying.)
Clarification: It would be annoying to move somewhere that costs a lot more money to live the way I do now. Although I think the hiking is probably better.
Fiddleback
09-22-2010, 11:50
Budget - Save - Invest
See Amazon:
The Millionaire Next Door
Publisher: Pocket; First edition (October 1, 1998)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0671015206
ISBN-13: 978-0671015206
My Lady and I were in two of the lowest paid 'professions' in the country. But we invested in the American economy and ourselves (she has a Master's plus, I have an MS). In our first four years of marriage we bought three houses as we moved around (all three eventually sold for a zero net gain...no big score on real estate for us!) At one point, we lived in a third rental house while we carried two mortgages (after a baker's dozen years, we paid off one and sold the second which had been caught in a real estate crash). During all that time, we lived neither simply nor extravagantly but never wanted for anything. I retired at age 46 with a 'pension', she retired four years later at age 49 with no pension. The year she retired we built our 'dream' home in our 'dream' location. We have no debt of any kind.
Accumulating wealth is surprisingly easy...all you need is maturity and individual responsibility (OK...being educated and well informed helps:rolleyes:). The economy; past, current or future, affects the speed of that accumulation but doesn't stop it. If folks think this decade is a bad one, they should remember or study up on the 70's.
You can do a surprisingly lot on a little money. Or you can do surprisingly little with a lot of money. The choice, and responsibility, is an individual one. But if one wants to do well 'eventually', the actions need to start early in one's journey. Time can be your friend but only if you do it in time.
Budget - Save - Invest
FB
Toolshed
09-22-2010, 12:02
That's what I was saying. Someone said it's really hard to be frugal when you have kids. You gotta buy them XBoxes or whatever. You do? Seriously? Can't they play computer games in the computer center at school (or on their own computer at home)? Do they really need Nikes and diaper genies? I begged my mom for Chemin-de-fer and Ditto jeans (ha ha, who even remembers those?) but instead she sewed my clothes. I cried and cried but I lived through it. Kids will live through not having an Xbox or whatever the "must have" toy of the year is.
Priorities is exactly what I'm saying, too.
As for saving up to buy in cash. You can still do that. I have never bought a car, but if I ever do, I'll pay cash. I bought a Vespa (well, more than one because I crashed) and even though my bank begged me to take out a loan instead (the darn things are pretty expensive, but not as expensive as paying interest), I wrote a check and paid in cash. Might not be able to do it with a house, but I could do it with a fridge or washing machine (did you know you can buy used ones???), a car, or something along those lines.
I've had a few loans, but what I've done is get loans with really small monthly payments and then pay twice or more the payments. I did that with my student loan and when it got close to the end, I wrote a big lump sum check and got rid of it. I could have taken 10 years to pay it off but I got rid of it in less than 5.
Too many people sleepwalk through life. They do what everybody else is doing. Most people would save up $5000 and buy something. But we dreamers go on a long hike. It's not all about money, either. I probably could have hiked at various times in my life, but it took getting over my fears to actually go ahead and do it. For some reason, I was most afraid of the resupply logistics. I was afraid until the first time I picked up my package in a post office. But by then the fear of never hiking the trail was greater than whatever else was holding me back, including the fear of ruining my chances at a decent career.
Just curious, but what do your kids do now? I mean, how have you counterd your childrens cries for electronic games, name brand sneakers and whatnot. There is a lot of peer pressure out there and I sometimes find that their friends may not want to come over to play if you don't have WII or XBox or whatever other games are out there.... Also, kids can still be pretty nasty to one another in school, picking on those with little in the way of fashion...
I do not have children.
Peer pressure of children toward other children is not a good reason for parents to make decisions about their money. I suffered the nastiness as a child that you speak of. I survived. How did my mom deal with my cries? She said no. She gave me an allowance and said if I wanted things I would have to save up and buy them myself.
The point about pets is spot on. That's been the most difficult thing for me. I have very expensive and long-living pets. On a trip to India it cost more to board my pets each night than it did for me to stay in a business-class hotel. On a trip to Nepal, it cost more for each individual pet than my hotel and food each day. I agree, do not get pets if you want freedom.
The point about pets is spot on. That's been the most difficult thing for me. I have very expensive and long-living pets. On a trip to India it cost more to board my pets each night than it did for me to stay in a business-class hotel. On a trip to Nepal, it cost more for each individual pet than my hotel and food each day. I agree, do not get pets if you want freedom.
What do you have? Turtles? Birds? A cat?
I was really close to adopting a New Zealand rabbit from the local HS. She'd been there for a year, and I felt so sorry for her. But in the end I decided not to--she could live to be 8-10 years old, was estimated to be 3 years, and I had no idea what to do with her if I went somewhere.
What do you have? Turtles? Birds? A cat?
I was really close to adopting a New Zealand rabbit from the local HS. She'd been there for a year, and I felt so sorry for her. But in the end I decided not to--she could live to be 8-10 years old, was estimated to be 3 years, and I had no idea what to do with her if I went somewhere.
i have feeders that allow me to leave my bunnies for up to a week. i just super clean the cage and put in fresh bedding/food/water and i'm gone.
I've got parrots. One of them is a cockatoo.
The Solemates
09-22-2010, 14:41
Budget - Save - Invest
See Amazon:
The Millionaire Next Door
Publisher: Pocket; First edition (October 1, 1998)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0671015206
ISBN-13: 978-0671015206
My Lady and I were in two of the lowest paid 'professions' in the country. But we invested in the American economy and ourselves (she has a Master's plus, I have an MS). In our first four years of marriage we bought three houses as we moved around (all three eventually sold for a zero net gain...no big score on real estate for us!) At one point, we lived in a third rental house while we carried two mortgages (after a baker's dozen years, we paid off one and sold the second which had been caught in a real estate crash). During all that time, we lived neither simply nor extravagantly but never wanted for anything. I retired at age 46 with a 'pension', she retired four years later at age 49 with no pension. The year she retired we built our 'dream' home in our 'dream' location. We have no debt of any kind.
Accumulating wealth is surprisingly easy...all you need is maturity and individual responsibility (OK...being educated and well informed helps:rolleyes:). The economy; past, current or future, affects the speed of that accumulation but doesn't stop it. If folks think this decade is a bad one, they should remember or study up on the 70's.
You can do a surprisingly lot on a little money. Or you can do surprisingly little with a lot of money. The choice, and responsibility, is an individual one. But if one wants to do well 'eventually', the actions need to start early in one's journey. Time can be your friend but only if you do it in time.
Budget - Save - Invest
FB
couldnt agree more. lots of wisdom in this post folks.
we're not yet even 30 and could easily afford a house without a mortgage if we wanted. like most americans, however, we opted for a larger house. its not a big deal for us...we will have it paid off early, and we dont mind being 'tied down' by a mortgage through these years of child-rearing.
Hmm. Bears seem to have figured out how to get along just fine without money. Who's really the more intelligent species? :-?
Your right, they just Yogi our food bags:D
Having children under 18 or even 21 is going to trump thruhiking in most cases. As it should. If you have kids they should be your #1 priority. - Tilly
You are assuming everyone, possibly including yourself, have only two options when they have children. That is: 1) take care of children 2) thruhike. What if I told you that you and everyone else that has children have unlimited options! Children are not anchors. It is the belief that those who have children and want to thru-hike only have two options that is anchoring those folks in this situation down. Before you jump to fight that thought I want you to try to think that you actually have other options. IMAGINE! It's only that because you've not explored/sought solutions that you dont realize their are other options available. I have met MANY who have young families that have found a way to take care of their children and also thru-hike. IT'S NOT AN EITHER/OR PROPOSITION! Don't limit yourself to only two possible scenarios! EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITES! Others have, and have found a way!
fredmugs
09-22-2010, 15:34
Well, it probably is because of where I live. I don't want to speculate too much on that for risk of sounding rude or offensive. But it is.
Maybe I should move to Asheville where all the 'hippies' are (tho that would be very annoying.)
Plenty of wannabe hippies down here in Bloomington.
Danielsen
09-22-2010, 15:57
You can do a surprisingly lot on a little money. Or you can do surprisingly little with a lot of money. The choice, and responsibility, is an individual one.
FB
I think this is a fantastic quote. :sun
Well stated and I couldn't agree more. But sometimes it is quite difficult in this day to make that a reality. But I really do think you are "spot on".
I have three grown children, ages 24-31. They were raised somewhat unconventionally, often without TV, etc. Homeschooling helped them learn to resist peer pressure. We also spent seven years living overseas, which gave them a certain window into the notion that there isn't just one way to live.
As young adults they are variously occupied as a construction worker, a field engineer on oil rigs, and a doctoral candidate in Russian Literature. They are all fiscally responsible and have savings programs (even the two who have relatively meager incomes; the third makes crazy money) that most Americans only dream about.
Learning about budgeting was an important part of their upbringing. Their dad and I tried not to act as fickle Santas, sometimes granting wishes and other times not. From a fairly early age they were given a certain amount of money and expected to figure out how to ration it out for the things they wanted most, and to learn to do without the other stuff. And they did. Hence the financial discipline they show now.
how much money do you make
Check this out: http://www.nps.gov/appa/parkmgmt/upload/Main_Report-3.pdf and scroll to page 194
hontassquirt
09-22-2010, 19:16
You can do a surprisingly lot on a little money. Or you can do surprisingly little with a lot of money. The choice, and responsibility, is an individual one. But if one wants to do well 'eventually', the actions need to start early in one's journey. Time can be your friend but only if you do it in time.
Budget - Save - Invest
FB
you brought a tear to my eye:sun
I recently was involved in a discussion with a guy concerning whether people who hike the AT are people who have a lot of money. This guy said "only people with a lot of money can take off like that and not work. I agree with him, but only so far. I say the persons lifestyle dictates whether someone is able to take off for an extended amount of time. Having the house paid off and not eating out goes quite a ways in helping out. I once read about a couple in Canada who dedicate their lives to canoeing and writing about their adventures. They live in a little 20x 16 foot cabin.My wife and I make about $35,000 a year. Any thoughts?I would agree with you. Obviously if someone is well off financially then they can pretty much live by their own set of standards and rules. Their ability to choose when, where, and what they want to do is something that they are fortunate enough to be able to fulfill. I believe there most likely are some people thru-hiking who may have had or currently still have good paying jobs which allow them the enjoyment and ability of being able to do a thru-hike. There are also people without much out there undertaking thru-hikes, however I believe (from what I have learned) that most of the middle-aged people out there are in the minority. These are the folks who have the most bills to be paid and other more pressing responsibilities. The majority of the people thru-hiking are either younger or are near or have entered their retirement years.
$100. I'll let you guess the time period. ...
double d
09-23-2010, 01:34
Money management is a skill, like any other. The smarter (and employ more common sense) you are, the better development of that skill. I think the real philosophy regarding money management is to enjoy all that life has to offer: family/health and career. If your career pays you "well", then fine, if not, and you still love it, then keep it. It's America, do what you want, as time is short, but stay away from consumer debt, as someone wrote earlier: you jump in and crawl out of debt.
Shadowmoss
09-23-2010, 10:20
There are ways around the stable home address issue. I never use my actual address as my mailing address. When I used a PO box I ran into issues where it was rejected as a 'good' address. However, going to a UPS Store and renting a box will give you a street address that can be written to look like an apartment. Also Escapees (an RV group) has a mailing service that gives you a street address and they will forward your mail to you anywhere. This costs money, but give the freedom to move around and still look stable. I'm keeping my UPS Store box as my permanent address as I move out of the country next week. For around $4 and postage they will forward my mail to me as often as I want. If you do this, you may as well pick a state that doesn't have state income tax. WA, TN, and TX qualify. Might want to have some tie (past or future) to the location if you can in case someone official starts asking questions. In my case I've lived in both WA and TN, and the company I work for is based out of TX.
Folks living alone or who travel a lot may want to consider that all someone needs is your name anymore, and they can get a detailed street map to your home. That was my first motivator for never using my actual home as my mailing address.
Shadowmoss(I like the trailname!), is thinking along some of the same lines as I was in one of my earlier posts. You can get a mailing address at a UPS or MailBoxes ETC store that is not a PO Box but functions in much the same way. It enables a business or individual to have a long term, alternate, or official business location address.
My main impetus for having a Suite Address(UPS, Mail Boxes Etc address) was that it worked to establish the credibility of having a business location when in fact I was only working out of my back bedroom home office! I also didn't want my home address to be known to people who might seek to STOP BY the "business" unannounced!
Like Shadowmoss, this was another one of my considerations. Folks living alone or who travel a lot may want to consider that all someone needs is your name anymore, and they can get a detailed street map to your home. That was my first motivator for never using my actual home as my mailing address.
I did not know about Escapees though! Thanks for the info.
I'm sorry to hear that you get that sort of reaction from most of society. Do you think that could be affected by geography? I know a number of 30+ year-old people who live similarly to what you describe that are well-liked and socially active, and generally approved by their communities or even praised for their "different" lifestyle. The culture here in the US does of course differ to some degree by region so I wonder if some areas place more "expectation of conformity in lifestyle" on the individual than others?
Either way, there's got to be some group of folks less enchanted with the status-chasing lifestyle around for you to be friends with if you can find 'em, eh?
I had an interesting experience. After my hike I had to kill a couple of days in Portland waiting on my flight. Several times I was mistaken for being homeless, which I guess I kind of was, but not really. Some guy even leaned out of a car window to tell me to "get a job instead of a backpack". On the second day, I decided to volunteer at the homeless shelter, and while standing outside I was once again mistaken for being homeless, only this time it was by other homeless people. Really put it into perspective how bad I looked and how quick people are to judge just by appearance.
Hiking a long distance trail is an impressive personal accomplishment. - 4eyedbuzzard
I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way so take what I say in context. The reason why completing a hike of a long distance trail seems so impressive is because the human race has been deceived into settling for so far far less than it is capable of!
Consider for a moment if we functioned at a much higher level then the amazing, the miraculous, the stupendous occurences would be more commonplace. The things we now label as impressive, amazing, amd miraculous become habitual! It becomes a way of life, a way of existence! That's the way that I now look at completing a thru-hike. It's commonplace. Completing a long distance hike/thru-hike is a product of functioning at a higher level/higher dimension! This sounds so esoterical, alien, and mysterious to oh so many, when I think we were always meant to live this "amazing, miraculous, impressive" way!
Another mind altering thought: Completing a long distance hike/thru-hike moves beyond being personal! Every human action, regarding hiking or not, whether perceived as good or bad, influences events, situations, and outcomes, often in ways unknown to us, throughout the universe! Before you scoff meditate about what I said! It just might make you reconsider your thoughts and actions!
The word professional is such an over used word!
Wow, that's pretty funny. I was never mistaken for a homeless person. I think that's one of the perks of being female. Just wash your hair and put on your hot pink crocs and town skirt and you are good to go.
I section hike 2 weeks weeks every year finish PA this year and next is NJ/NY but a year after I retire I'm going for a extended walk class of 2025 whoo hoo
ebandlam
09-23-2010, 15:37
Check this out: http://www.nps.gov/appa/parkmgmt/upload/Main_Report-3.pdf and scroll to page 194
This seems to change a lot of assumptions I had... Interesting information..:-? thanks for pointing this out.
DC2.2GSR
09-23-2010, 15:44
i make just under $40k/year on my own and i don't owe anyone a cent, other than next month's rent. i don't even have a credit card. no debt... ever. i hike when i can get time off of work and it usually doesn't cost much. other than the initial gear purchases hiking is cheap and weekends are my playtime. hiking never takes away from the rest of my life. as for thru-hikers, sure it costs a lot of money and you have to be able to dedicate months straight away from work, so those people probably have quite a bit of slack financially.
Danielsen
09-23-2010, 15:56
Shadowmoss and Dogwood, thanks for that info! Good to know there are still resources out there like that. All I knew was that listing a P.O. box on a job application really doesn't look too good to most employers!
Having children under 18 or even 21 is going to trump thruhiking in most cases. As it should. If you have kids they should be your #1 priority. - Tilly
You are assuming everyone, possibly including yourself, have only two options when they have children. That is: 1) take care of children 2) thruhike. What if I told you that you and everyone else that has children have unlimited options! Children are not anchors. It is the belief that those who have children and want to thru-hike only have two options that is anchoring those folks in this situation down. Before you jump to fight that thought I want you to try to think that you actually have other options. IMAGINE! It's only that because you've not explored/sought solutions that you dont realize their are other options available. I have met MANY who have young families that have found a way to take care of their children and also thru-hike. IT'S NOT AN EITHER/OR PROPOSITION! Don't limit yourself to only two possible scenarios! EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITES! Others have, and have found a way!
I'm glad that this has worked for you, but I still maintain that children are the #1 priority, certainly MUCH higher than a hike, and yes, if you have children, you probably should be anchored to them. They're your kids. If I had kids I would NEVER leave them for a hike. Never. Also most families probably can't all take 6 mos off from earning income to all jump on the trail. Just my take on it. Obviously not everyone's.
Not doing a thru-hike because you want to stay home with your children is a valid reason. Not doing a thru-hike because your kids want Xboxes isn't.
Still, if you aren't a single parent, you could still do a solo hike or a solo long-distance chunk. I remember when I was a kid my dad went to the Marshall Islands for 6 weeks. It was kind of exciting to hear about his trip, the seashells he found that could kill you if you put one in your pocket, the tales of poisonous fish and people who'd go out on sail boats and disappear, descriptions of the enromous islanders who liked Coca-cola and Spam, horror stories of what the test bombs did to people on the island. I couldn't wait to see the slide show and shells when he got home. His trip to the Marshall Islands turned out to be one of the highlights of my childhood.
IronGutsTommy
09-25-2010, 02:18
wow thats a rather forward question, how much i make. do you want me social security number as well? how about the name of the girl i lost my virginity to? somethings are just private IMO
You don't gotta answer it.. This is still America for the moment.
Fiddleback
09-25-2010, 11:16
... so those people probably have quite a bit of slack financially.
Great word choice! "...a bit of slack financially." This touches on what has been hinted on in this thread (e.g., the cost of kids) but isn't immediately obvious in the OP's question.
There is a difference between "income" and "discretionary income." Discretionary income is what is left after the essentials are paid; taxes, mortgage, food, utilities, car payment, the kids' dental... And it's no surprise that 'poor old college students' often have more discretionary income than those in the middle of their careers with a lifestyle that includes a house in the suburbs, three kids, two cars, pets, etc..
But as posted before, discretionary income is somewhat under the control of the earner. One can't necessarily increase their earnings but often they can decrease their monthly bills/payments. The resulting increase in discretionary income can provide the financial slack somewhat necessary for a thru hike.
Fiddleback
09-25-2010, 11:23
wow thats a rather forward question, how much i make. do you want me social security number as well? how about the name of the girl i lost my virginity to? somethings are just private IMO
I've always thought that it depends on what your job is...
If you're a public servant, i.e., military, teacher, cop or firefighter, 'government worker', etc., your income from that job is public record. Those who take their pay from the taxpayer should be open about what it is.
But if you're in the private sector then, 'somethings are just private'. Like the sense of "loss" when it comes to virginity.:D
FB
I don't make any money. I earn it. The amount is none of your business.:-?
I barely make enough to go hiking....:o
As other's have said, you don't have to post an answer to this question. However, from what I learned a long time ago, it is impolite to ask someone "how much money do they make?". The correct etiquette is to ask them "if they feel they are paid enough for the job duties that they perform":sun
johnnybgood
09-25-2010, 12:38
The ultimate question should be : What is your income to debt ratio ?
Income to debt ratio is the ultimate barometer in beginning to save enough money for anything worthwhile.
Also personal household responsibilities : caring for aging parents ; children at home ; or special circumstances take precedence over thru-hiking... and always should.
The ultimate question should be : What is your income to debt ratio ?
Income to debt ratio is the ultimate barometer in beginning to save enough money for anything worthwhile.
Also personal household responsibilities : caring for aging parents ; children at home ; or special circumstances take precedence over thru-hiking... and always should.
What if my aging parents wants an xbox? :)
Danielsen
09-25-2010, 14:59
The ultimate question should be : What is your income to debt ratio ?
Income to debt ratio is the ultimate barometer in beginning to save enough money for anything worthwhile.
Also personal household responsibilities : caring for aging parents ; children at home ; or special circumstances take precedence over thru-hiking... and always should.
That's an interesting concept, but to me it speaks primarily to how deeply ingrained the mindset of debt has become in our society. My weekly income to debt ratio is whatever I earned that week to ZERO debt. That's a result of choices I've made with what to do with my life and how to support it.
I think Income to Expense ratio is a bit more important, with the paying off of any debt that exists being figured into those expenses.
earlyriser26
09-25-2010, 15:16
Hiking is one of the few things you can do with little money. Most Thru hikers seem to have less money. The key reasons are generally age (young) or no income (hey I just quit my job to spend a half year hiking). The real question should not be how much money do you have, but how much time. But the again, time is money:)
LIhikers
09-25-2010, 16:56
What if my aging parents wants an xbox? :)
Then get it for them.
It'll keep them busy so you can go out hiking! :D
I'm glad that this has worked for you, but I still maintain that children are the #1 priority, certainly MUCH higher than a hike, and yes, if you have children, you probably should be anchored to them. They're your kids. If I had kids I would NEVER leave them for a hike. Never. Also most families probably can't all take 6 mos off from earning income to all jump on the trail. Just my take on it. Obviously not everyone's.
You're glad exactly what worked for me? That others and myself have found ways(other options) NOT to abandon children and still be able to hike? That we have NOT thought of it as a two option scenario? - I either stay home(not hike) and take care of the children OR I hike and abandon the children? I can tell by your comments you love your children and are devoted to them, as it should be! I applaud you for that! ALL I'm saying is that IT IS NOT a two option scenario if you so chose to examine other options. IMAGINE! EXPLORE POSSIBILITIES! SEEK SOLUTIONS! FIND WAYS! I have SEVERAL possible OTHER OPTIONS for you to be able to hike and still care for your children, but I'm going to avoid telling you those options because you have to first open your mind up to the possiblty that other options do exist - FOR YOU!
I ask, that you consider for a moment, that there are other choices available! You have to imagine a solution outside your currented limited way of thinking(I only have two options).
Why do you assume that an individual or whole family has to take 6 months off from work to hike/thru-hike?
For most of us, what we make is what we can persuade someone to pay us. Things used to be different. Most everyone, except the lowliest farm worker, was an independent entrepreneur -- mostly sustainable farming, occasionally one man carpentry, furniture maker, blacksmith... .
But the factory system pretty much ended that. One, of course, can still bounce from job to job which often helps to maximize income. However, once I became skilled enough to have a skill people wanted and needed, I put less emphasis on money than on doing things I enjoyed doing -- especially, if those things seemed to have a useful public benefit.
In my mid-thirties with a new house and a new wife and a new baby I had a chance to almost double my income by working as a publicity person for the Maine state police. I turned it down. I was covering environmental affairs with a knowledge set and skills set that no one else in Maine seemed to be using. I knew how hard I had had to argue that what I was doing was both important and interesting. I sensed few others would make such things an issue. I was at least partially right. Once I finally did leave my job was quickly abolished and no competing newspapers took it up.
Oh well, it was an interesting couple of decades anyway. Things happened and continue to happen, that seem to have had an beneficial impact on Maine and those who live here. The experience makes for a good feeling, among many, in one's declining years
I've never regretted the decision. Though as I struggle with limited income, I sometimes think about what might have been. Later, I even declined a chance to become the publicity person for the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. I, somehow, thought it more important to be a part of the "independent" press, than as a part of the bureaucracy.
Getting back to the OP, during those long middle years, hiking the AT was never an option. Family intervened. Equally importantly, a useful job doing useful things during a critical time in history intervened.
Weary
Only to types of people in this world.Leaders and a #man... i mean a PUPPET.That happens at a very young age in life....
I, personally, do not have children/husband/mortgage/student loans/massive credit card debt, but having these things are not necessarily the 'wrong' choice. I would imagine that having a young family practically begets debt.
They're your kids. If I had kids I would NEVER leave them for a hike. Never.
I can tell by your comments you love your children and are devoted to them, as it should be! I applaud you for that! I believe Tilly stated she does not have children:-?
Of course Tilly has children - 3 cats, a dog, parrot, two goldfish, a horse, and a graden to attend to!
You're glad exactly what worked for me? That others and myself have found ways(other options) NOT to abandon children and still be able to hike? That we have NOT thought of it as a two option scenario? - I either stay home(not hike) and take care of the children OR I hike and abandon the children? I can tell by your comments you love your children and are devoted to them, as it should be! I applaud you for that! ALL I'm saying is that IT IS NOT a two option scenario if you so chose to examine other options. IMAGINE! EXPLORE POSSIBILITIES! SEEK SOLUTIONS! FIND WAYS! I have SEVERAL possible OTHER OPTIONS for you to be able to hike and still care for your children, but I'm going to avoid telling you those options because you have to first open your mind up to the possiblty that other options do exist - FOR YOU!
I ask, that you consider for a moment, that there are other choices available! You have to imagine a solution outside your currented limited way of thinking(I only have two options).
Why do you assume that an individual or whole family has to take 6 months off from work to hike/thru-hike?
Well actually I do not have children or pets or long term debt. And this, for now, is why: because I want to do other things.
When I have children and/or pets I will not be considering long distance hiking any longer, because I will have other personal responsibilities. Taking a long, hard look at my life, support, and finances, I simply cannot combine the two, and most people can't.
The simple fact is that most thruhikers on the trail are either young or retired...ie no children or grown children, no mortgage or paid mortgage. The people in between are very few. I think most would agree with this.
Sure! Some people with children/families/mortgages/careers thru hike and make 6 months happen. But they are rare. Many on this site have posted that they are waiting for their child to reach 18/be done with college/etc., then they will take off to hike.
Also, it is two completely different things to be away from your existing responsibilites for SIX MONTHS versus a few weeks. I am not talking about taking off and doing things for a week or a few weeks. I am talking about taking 6 months off for long distance hiking. They are hardly the same thing.
There are just choice you have to make in life I suppose. Again, I'm glad that some people with children/family/mortgages/household to support have managed to hike with all that on their plate. But I know I won't--and judging by who is on the trail, most don't.
Of course Tilly has children - 3 cats, a dog, parrot, two goldfish, a horse, and a graden to attend to!
Well I do have 2 gardens...but the horse is a long way off!
People cannot understand why I will not adopt a pet (I'm an RVT, and it's inconceivable for people in my field to not have pets, understandably) so I can have freedom later on. The responsiblity of pets is the same as children IMHO, so, until I'm absolutely done traveling, I won't have any.
Of course Tilly has children - 3 cats, a dog, parrot, two goldfish, a horse, and a graden to attend to!Nope, only tends to/helps other's:D
How much do I make? I'm an O-2 in the military, look it up ;)
One thing I like about the military is there's not this taboo about discussing money. It's no secret how much your co-workers are making. It's all in a table posted online.
Only to types of people in this world.Leaders and a #man... i mean a PUPPET.That happens at a very young age in life....
Hmm. This might be interesting. Can anyone translate? I have no idea what slow is trying to say.
kayak karl
09-26-2010, 20:00
Hmm. This might be interesting. Can anyone translate? I have no idea what slow is trying to say.
I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, A poet, a pawn and a king. I've been up and down and over and out And I know one thing: Each time I find myself, flat on my face.
fredmugs
09-27-2010, 11:07
What if my aging parents wants an xbox? :)
I am totally psyched for the new Guitar Hero game to be released for my XBox tomorrow.
I am also totally psyched for my next section hike in 11 days.
Win - Win.
Old Hiker
09-27-2010, 11:27
How much do I make? I'm an O-2 in the military, look it up ;)
One thing I like about the military is there's not this taboo about discussing money. It's no secret how much your co-workers are making. It's all in a table posted online.
But LT, what about your BAQ? BAS? Per diem for the duty station? Moving allowance? TDY money? Clothing allowance? (Whoops - enlisted swine only :eek: - sorry!) Haz duty pay?
Do you subtract the O-Club dues from that? JGOA dues?
I had civilians ask me why I didn't live in a better house and throw block parties, since "the military pays for all your housing costs, utilities and food". This while I was on food stamps and WIC!
flemdawg1
09-27-2010, 13:37
But the again, time is money:)
Chung Mee (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0361719/): Opium is my business. The bridge mean more traffic. More traffic mean more money. More money mean more power.
Lawrence Bourne III (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000158/): Yeah, well, before I commit any of that to memory, would there be anything in this for me?
Chung Mee (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0361719/): Speed is important in business. Time is money.
Lawrence Bourne III (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000158/): You said opium was money.
Chung Mee (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0361719/): Money is Money.
Lawrence Bourne III (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000158/): Well then, what is time again? :banana
Hmm. This might be interesting. Can anyone translate? I have no idea what slow is trying to say.
Pretty simple.Be your own boss or always look over your back for the WELL sorry but we have to let you go.LEAD OR FOLLOW...SIMPLE.:sun
Danielsen
09-27-2010, 23:00
Pretty simple.Be your own boss or always look over your back for the WELL sorry but we have to let you go.LEAD OR FOLLOW...SIMPLE.:sun
True enough. I've been a jilted temp worker. I'm working a somewhat low-level job currently but it's nothing permanent; self-employment is the long-term goal. Temporary jobs provide the capital.
True enough. I've been a jilted temp worker. I'm working a somewhat low-level job currently but it's nothing permanent; self-employment is the long-term goal. Temporary jobs provide the capital.
Not for everyone,but i knew at 16 i will choose how much money i want to make.No body else.:)
Fiddleback
10-02-2010, 11:45
But LT, what about your BAQ? BAS? Per diem for the duty station? Moving allowance? TDY money? Clothing allowance? (Whoops - enlisted swine only :eek: - sorry!) Haz duty pay?
Do you subtract the O-Club dues from that? JGOA dues?
I had civilians ask me why I didn't live in a better house and throw block parties, since "the military pays for all your housing costs, utilities and food". This while I was on food stamps and WIC!
I think quasarr's post intended to make the point (as mine was) that certain 'jobs' pay is openly public, as it should be. Allowances included.
But tracking with Old Hiker's post, I've had people tell me that items in the BX/PX are free...
FB
Working for yourself isn't all it's cracked up to be. Unless you are wildly successful, you hardly ever get to take a vacation. Sometimes you don't even get weekends off. Sometimes you don't even get evenings off. Sometimes it's really nice to let someone else make decisions and deal with the headaches. Meanwhile, you get to go home at 5.
It's just like renting. When you rent, if the plumbing has a problem or it starts raining in the kitchen, you call the landlord and they take care of it. If it's your own house, you have to fix it or call a plumber and pay for it whether you've got the money available or not.
Danielsen
10-02-2010, 22:20
Working for yourself isn't all it's cracked up to be. Unless you are wildly successful, you hardly ever get to take a vacation. Sometimes you don't even get weekends off. Sometimes you don't even get evenings off. Sometimes it's really nice to let someone else make decisions and deal with the headaches. Meanwhile, you get to go home at 5.
It's just like renting. When you rent, if the plumbing has a problem or it starts raining in the kitchen, you call the landlord and they take care of it. If it's your own house, you have to fix it or call a plumber and pay for it whether you've got the money available or not.
I suppose it depends on what kind of business you're running. My dad spent a while running his own architectural portrait business and even when he was dealing with large development companies he was able to determine his own schedule and do quite a lot of things that wouldn't fit into a 9-5 schedule. He did eventually take the opportunity he got to go into the ministry, but based on his example I have no doubt that an individual working for themselves can, depending on what field of work they're in, schedule themselves as they wish.
As to being fully responsible for taking care of all issues, I suppose that's the tradeoff. I personally tend to see that as a worthwhile tradeoff.
IronGutsTommy
10-02-2010, 22:28
people who work for themselves fall into a clocked in trap, especially when they work directly out of their home. the typical commute home after work begins a mental release where a person can mentally clock out for the day. when a person works at home and especially when they have no designated office room, they never are able to mentally shut off. This is also what happens with vacations, they just cant pull themselves away even for a few days, even when in actuality they could with little to no consequences. It is suggested by studies that having a room solely for working, ie an oiffice, may help in being able to call it a day mentally
Working for yourself isn't all it's cracked up to be. Unless you are wildly successful, you hardly ever get to take a vacation. Sometimes you don't even get weekends off. Sometimes you don't even get evenings off. Sometimes it's really nice to let someone else make decisions and deal with the headaches. Meanwhile, you get to go home at 5.
It's just like renting. When you rent, if the plumbing has a problem or it starts raining in the kitchen, you call the landlord and they take care of it. If it's your own house, you have to fix it or call a plumber and pay for it whether you've got the money available or not.There's pro's and con's to each situation. When you work for someone else, you can avoid a lot of the work details and pressures, and a lot of time you start and stop working at specified times. However you have little or no control over your boss and/or co-workers. If he/they turn out to be a tyrant and/or hostile, and it is a hostile work environment, then you will be under uncontrollable distress. When you are your own boss, you have more responsibilities, but since you are your own boss, some of the worst distress is alleviated. Of course there are other distressor's, but distress is highest when you have little to no control over the workplace goings-on. This is the same as your analogy to renting. Owning your own home has the drawback of having to be responsible to perform your own maintenance and/or repairs, but you have more overall living space (usually). You can also have private grounds as compared to communal, and your vehicles can either be parked in your own driveway near your home or in a garage in sight of it instead of having to park where your vehicle is not visible from the dwelling (possible). Also generally in a one family home there is more privacy overall than having to deal with neighbors above, below, or to the sides of an apartment rental. If if it's a home rental, you have the landlord to deal with. And from what I understand, some are horrible (thus the coined term Slumlords). And not all rental repairs are performed timely, or to the renter's satisfaction. So as you see, there are pro's and con's to each.
Danielsen
10-03-2010, 09:05
people who work for themselves fall into a clocked in trap, especially when they work directly out of their home. the typical commute home after work begins a mental release where a person can mentally clock out for the day. when a person works at home and especially when they have no designated office room, they never are able to mentally shut off. This is also what happens with vacations, they just cant pull themselves away even for a few days, even when in actuality they could with little to no consequences. It is suggested by studies that having a room solely for working, ie an oiffice, may help in being able to call it a day mentally
I feel you're making a lot of generalizations. Sure, those are probably true for some or maybe even most self-employed people, but I know in the case of my father, the self-employed entrepeneur closest to me, the opposite was true. He had his designated work time, and he spent the rest of his time relaxing, enjoying the things life has to offer. The back nook of the living room was his "studio" of sorts and while working he would often take part in conversations with the rest of us. I strongly feel that those who make the conscious decision to do so can certainly integrate self-employment into a relaxed and enjoyable lifestyle.
I tried pork rinds but I kept eating them. You know what they say. eh.
"Don't get high on your supply."
[QUOTE=Tilly;1053574
When I have children and/or pets I will not be considering long distance hiking any longer, because I will have other personal responsibilities. Taking a long, hard look at my life, support, and finances, I simply cannot combine the two, and most people can't.
The simple fact is that most thruhikers on the trail are either young or retired...ie no children or grown children, no mortgage or paid mortgage. The people in between are very few. I think most would agree with this.
Sure! Some people with children/families/mortgages/careers thru hike and make 6 months happen. But they are rare. Many on this site have posted that they are waiting for their child to reach 18/be done with college/etc., then they will take off to hike.
...
There are just choice you have to make in life I suppose. Again, I'm glad that some people with children/family/mortgages/household to support have managed to hike with all that on their plate. But I know I won't--and judging by who is on the trail, most don't.[/QUOTE]
What is so rare are those who: know what they want, which is not the same as knowing what one doesn't want, divise a plan to obtain a goal, and then follow through executing that plan to reach the goal!
THOSE PEOPLE ARE INDEED QUITE RARE!
YES, the narrow road is less traveled!
What is so rare are those who: know what they want, which is not the same as knowing what one doesn't want, divise a plan to obtain a goal, and then follow through executing that plan to reach the goal!
THOSE PEOPLE ARE INDEED QUITE RARE!
YES, the narrow road is less traveled!
I think we are now talking about two different things, and getting into nebulous territory.
But with that being said, isn't homeownership a goal? Children and marriage? Those are goals, too.
Inevitably in life when we make certain decisions, others may be pushed off for the time being.
....isn't homeownership a goal? Children and marriage? ......
They always were for me. Walking 2,000 miles was never a "goal," but I did that too. Looking back I regret a few things. But we can't change the past. Just the future.
I think we are now talking about two different things, and getting into nebulous territory.
But with that being said, isn't homeownership a goal? Children and marriage? Those are goals, too.
Inevitably in life when we make certain decisions, others may be pushed off for the time being.You are completely correct. In life we all make decisions, and those decisions decide what paths our lives take. If we are responsible, we attempt to make positive decisions so positive outcomes occur. Sometimes we make decisions that are not well thought through, or too abrupt. Or decisions are made that are negative and wrong. These also affect our lives. Sometimes these decisions cause our previous plans to wind up having to be put on hold or dropped altogether, or at least for the time being. I think though if we attempt to nurture our hopes and dreams, then eventually after our more pressing responsibilities (for those that have them) are fulfilled, we may get the oppurtunity to experience them.
I think we are now talking about two different things, and getting into nebulous territory.
But with that being said, isn't homeownership a goal? Children and marriage? Those are goals, too.
Inevitably in life when we make certain decisions, others may be pushed off for the time being.
Yes, those are goals, but for many people they aren't as consciously chosen as other goals. Many people simply fall into children, marriage and mortgages because that's just what you do.
We are falling into a different topic, but to make it similar again, I think that it is easy for people to believe that hikers must be rich because it is sort of unusual for people to take a path in life that differs from the norm. Many hikers have taken a path in life that differs.
Some people have no interest or desire to go hiking or backpacking. I don't think that makes them bad people - just different than me.
I also spend time on forums devoted to other topics and I assure you that many of those people would think we are as nutty as we think they are.
Not right or wrong - just different.
Just curious, but what do your kids do now? I mean, how have you counterd your childrens cries for electronic games, name brand sneakers and whatnot. There is a lot of peer pressure out there and I sometimes find that their friends may not want to come over to play if you don't have WII or XBox or whatever other games are out there.... Also, kids can still be pretty nasty to one another in school, picking on those with little in the way of fashion...
You weren't asking me but, since I have a sister that doesn't indulge her kids with every gadget out there I am going to put my two cents in.
She has two boys, one 23 and one still in college at 20. Her kids whined and cried about not having a computer, a cell phone, cable and $100 dollar sneakers. She said "no". Repeatedly, firmly, and consistantly. She flat out told them they did not "need" those things, and that they wouldn't "die" if they didn't get them. She also made it clear that she and her husband lived within their means and the kids were expected to also. By the time they were in middle school they were shoveling snow, babysitting and mowing lawns to make money of their own. If the kids got money from family for birthdays or Christmas or whatever, they were allowed to spend it as they pleased. Very quickly they learned to save and buy the expensive things they really wanted.
Yeah, there is a lot of peer pressure out there and kids can be very nasty. However, do you really want your kids hanging around with kids that make fun of someone because they don't have the latest Nikes? Now, my nephews were one of the few kids in their school with a pool so they always had other kids over. Plus they were good kids and very interesting because they were involved in a lot of different things.
Dealing with peer pressure is how a child builds character and good coping skills. Being able to deal with it in grammar school trains you to deal with it in highschool when the stakes are higher and what your peers are pressuring you to do is drink beer, smoke pot and cheat on the math exam. And those skills continue to grow and become refined in college when you are pressured to go out and get drunk instead of study, have sex with the frat boys to be accepted and "cool", and cheat on the final.
Hopefully by the time you are an adult you have actually learned that doing what everyone else is doing is a road to nowhere and makes you a very boring individual. Life skills are taught, and dealing with a little adversity as a child is how you learn to deal with a lot of it as an adult.
Not for everyone,but i knew at 16 i will choose how much money i want to make.No body else.:)
And how old are you now? Has that worked out?
I just make it pretty clear to my daughter that society is messed up. If she made money outside shovelling snow I still wouldn't let her waste it on crap. Just because someone earns the money doesn't make it right. What if she wanted to spend it on drugs or porn? Smart phones - same thing. Is there a responsible way for a 11 year old to use a smart phone? No. Alot of these kids, when they aren't texting, they are in a daze thinking about texting. My daughter gets it. She still wants one, but sge gets it. Its a struggle to get he to spend more time outdoors when none of her friends are, and I mean zero, and to walk 1km to school when EVERYONE else takes the freaking bus. Seriously, the school is right through the woods, 250m for some of these kids, and the stand at the bus stop talking and texting. It's a lost generation. This internet and social networking stuff is bad enough for us. It's seriously addictive as most of us no. For 11-12 year olds. It's lethal. You gotta take a stand. You gotta say no even if it means she has to walk past everyone of her zombie friends and not talk to them at all because they are standing at a bus stop, texting, or talking about texting, or standing in a daze thinking about texting.
It's hopeless.
I just make it pretty clear to my daughter that society is messed up. If she made money outside shovelling snow I still wouldn't let her waste it on crap. Just because someone earns the money doesn't make it right. What if she wanted to spend it on drugs or porn? Smart phones - same thing. Is there a responsible way for a 11 year old to use a smart phone? No. Alot of these kids, when they aren't texting, they are in a daze thinking about texting. My daughter gets it. She still wants one, but sge gets it. Its a struggle to get he to spend more time outdoors when none of her friends are, and I mean zero, and to walk 1km to school when EVERYONE else takes the freaking bus. Seriously, the school is right through the woods, 250m for some of these kids, and the stand at the bus stop talking and texting. It's a lost generation. This internet and social networking stuff is bad enough for us. It's seriously addictive as most of us no. For 11-12 year olds. It's lethal. You gotta take a stand. You gotta say no even if it means she has to walk past everyone of her zombie friends and not talk to them at all because they are standing at a bus stop, texting, or talking about texting, or standing in a daze thinking about texting.
It's hopeless.
No JAK, it's not hopeless. Very little, if anything, is ever hopeless. There is always another way of doing something and someone, somewhere figures it out. While I agree with you that there is a lot wrong in this world it is still full of fantastic, wonderful, awe inspiring people. Some of them kids that are still learning how to navigate this confusing and sometimes frightening world.
Anyhow, back to the thread. I don't think it has much to do with money. I think it has more to do with time. People that have the time for a thru-hike, or long section hike, they are probably either in school or retired or at some sort of junction in their lives. I think it has less to do with money and more to do with dropping out or falling between the cracks, and then maybe finding some comfort there. Except for the younger crowd. They are just getting started. Whether they have money, based on the fact that they are hiking the AT, hard to say. There's like a zillion other things they could do if they had money, whereas hiking is something you can do cheaper than many others. You might think if they didn't have money they would be working for the summer but sometimes there isn't work to be had very easily so its sometimes an easier choice to spend your time doing something like hiking than spinning your wheels. Not the best choice, but better than some others. In that sense being a student is not all that different than the rest of us. This younger crowd coming up though, I mean my daughter's age like the post 1999 crowd. They really scare me. They aren't just living in a virtual reality like some of us. They are growing up in it. They are being steeped in it.
I am not sure the poor are escaping it either. It seems to find its way everywhere.
"When I stepped out into the bright sunlight from the darkness of the movie house, I had only two things on my mind: Paul Newman and a ride home..."
No JAK, it's not hopeless. Very little, if anything, is ever hopeless. There is always another way of doing something and someone, somewhere figures it out. While I agree with you that there is a lot wrong in this world it is still full of fantastic, wonderful, awe inspiring people. Some of them kids that are still learning how to navigate this confusing and sometimes frightening world.Maybe. But where are you going to find these awe inspiring people. Through the media and internet and social networking, and isn't that the problem? Maybe there will be a backlash to all this internet and social networking, but people are going to have to go out and find it first hand, because if you are looking to virtual reality for inspiration to find your way back to reality you are looking in the wrong place. It's interesting though. We make a beast like print media, and we kill it with radio, and then we kill that with television, and then we kill that with the internet, and now we are killing that with this new thing, whatever the internet is turning into now. We fix one problem with a bigger one. It's not easy to look at the youngest generation for hope when they are on the same crack that you are on, only worse, they never had a chance to see the real world. How do you take a stand? How do you change the world by dropping out. One individual at a time I suppose.
"My first trip to the zoo. Oh boy, oh boy."
Maybe. But where are you going to find these awe inspiring people. Through the media and internet and social networking, and isn't that the problem? Maybe there will be a backlash to all this internet and social networking, but people are going to have to go out and find it first hand, because if you are looking to virtual reality for inspiration to find your way back to reality you are looking in the wrong place. It's interesting though. We make a beast like print media, and we kill it with radio, and then we kill that with television, and then we kill that with the internet, and now we are killing that with this new thing, whatever the internet is turning into now. We fix one problem with a bigger one. It's not easy to look at the youngest generation for hope when they are on the same crack that you are on, only worse, they never had a chance to see the real world. How do you take a stand? How do you change the world by dropping out. One individual at a time I suppose.
"My first trip to the zoo. Oh boy, oh boy."
I find them in my day to day life. But, then again, you may feel that I am easily impressed.
I am not involved with any of the social networking sites. I think they would be a waste of my time.
Aren't you on one right now?
I would agree that that is the place to find them. Every day heroes. The ones that haven't become addicted to social networking, even through work. I used to think that the work environments were too intrusive, that people need to have a life outside of work. That is true, but I have since discovered that there are worse things than getting addicted to work. It is getting addicted to a virtual world, through work, that isn't really work. Sure, you might be making a living, but are you working? So who are these everyday heroes? Who are the ones that are still standing, because alot of the best ones seem to be falling down? How do you tell them apart? Which ones are real, and still healthy?
"Stay gold, Ponyboy, stay gold."
Aren't you on one right now?
Well, I guess you could say that. Although I have usually heard only Facebook and the like described as social networking sites. But, you're right, I guess this would count, just never thought of it that way because my motive for finding this or similar sites was for information gathering not meeting people.
Aren't you on one right now?
Yeah I thought about that and kind of covered that. It's hard not to be. When you are addicted to alcohol you probably shouldn't go to a bar to talk to someone about it. So what if everyone is either at a bar, or an assylum? I agree its not that bad. Maybe we'll start today. Maybe tomorrow.
You just gotta start with yourself,
then see who else is still out there,
on the outside looking out.
"Ive been thinking about it, and that poem, that guy that wrote it, he meant youre gold when youre a kid, like green. When youre a kid everythings new, dawn. Its just when you get used to everything that its day. Like the way you dig sunsets, Pony. Thats gold. Keep that way, its a good way to be...And dont be so bugged over being a greaser. You still have a lot of time to make yourself what you want. Theres still lots of good in the world."
http://sunrise_over_nb_500px.jpg
Nothing gold can stay.
- Robert Frost
Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2884135144_3bea4408e3.jpg
Oops. Try again.
http://www.scythesupply.com/images/sunrise_over_nb_500px.jpg
Nothing gold can stay.
- Robert Frost
Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2884135144_3bea4408e3.jpg
I would agree that that is the place to find them. Every day heroes. The ones that haven't become addicted to social networking, even through work. I used to think that the work environments were too intrusive, that people need to have a life outside of work. That is true, but I have since discovered that there are worse things than getting addicted to work. It is getting addicted to a virtual world, through work, that isn't really work. Sure, you might be making a living, but are you working? So who are these everyday heroes? Who are the ones that are still standing, because alot of the best ones seem to be falling down? How do you tell them apart? Which ones are real, and still healthy?
"Stay gold, Ponyboy, stay gold."
Two of my most recent really inspiring people.....
I work in a doctor's office. We had a 97 year old patient come in recently for some testing. He is very sick and in pain but this old guy was so pleasant and fun to have in the office it was amazing. He had great stories and was thrilled that our techs and front office people took the time to listen to him. Someone asked him how he stayed so positive and he said that long ago he learned that when things are bad you make a decision, either to make everyone else around you as miserable as you are or, you stay upbeat and look on the bright side so the people around you are happy to help. That stopped me right in my tracks. He was right, no one in my office would have spent the time with him that they did if he was unpleasant. They would have done their jobs and taken care of him but it wouldn't have been the same.
The other was a boy of nine. He is the son of a friend of a friend. This kid was incredibly bright and engaging. His mother is an artist and he is following in her footsteps. He had done some drawings of his father that were impressive. As he was explaining why he had drawn in a particular way it showed he had insight into his father's personality that was quite discerning. That he was talented enough to draw something that actually looked like his father at nine was impressive enough, that he had that kind of understanding of his dad and could incorporate it into a work of art was damn near genius. Made me want to see what he would grow up into.
I think people have to be open to inspiration. And they have to be open to the people around them to see what they have to offer. I do not have expectations that these people are perfect, I just know that they have touched something in me. If a person can make me look at something in a new way, if they can make me step back and think about something, or hell, if they just make me feel better for a little while I find that pretty damn wonderful.
TheYoungOne
10-03-2010, 23:07
I have two kids one 11 and one 8. It is how you raise them. I find the whole facination with computers, cell phone, and gadgets just silly. I mean honestly you are all on an Appalachian trail computer forum complaining about who kids today are too wrapped up in the modern world.
Its so ironic its funny.
For me cell phone are for emergencies, computers are for work, learning new things and passing the time, and when I want to socialize I do real things with real people. My kids have the same attitude. They are in the scouts, involved in sports and other outdoor activities. My kids can swim, ride a bike, set up a tent, shoot a bb gun, make their own meal, and use a knife to cut their own food. All that stuff was simple when we were kids but you will be suprised how many of these kids today don't know squat on how to do things in the real world. Take your kids out and teach the things that matter.
Now to the original post. I have family commitment, so pretty much I will never thru hike the AT. I will however section hike the heck out of it. I love my family too much to really waste 4 to 5 months away from them.
I think if I was single and had the time and money I would do it. In the grand scheme of things you could do a thru hike for just above the price of a two week exotic vacation, so money is not the big issue. Anyone can save up, hunt for sales on equiptment and build up over time.
Its the time and the commitments that get you.
Nice post Yari. Thanks.
The irony didn't escape me TheYoungOne.
The problem I'm having is escaping the irony. ;)
Trailbender
10-04-2010, 04:44
I have two kids one 11 and one 8. It is how you raise them. I find the whole facination with computers, cell phone, and gadgets just silly. I mean honestly you are all on an Appalachian trail computer forum complaining about who kids today are too wrapped up in the modern world.
Its so ironic its funny.
For me cell phone are for emergencies, computers are for work, learning new things and passing the time, and when I want to socialize I do real things with real people. My kids have the same attitude. They are in the scouts, involved in sports and other outdoor activities. My kids can swim, ride a bike, set up a tent, shoot a bb gun, make their own meal, and use a knife to cut their own food. All that stuff was simple when we were kids but you will be suprised how many of these kids today don't know squat on how to do things in the real world. Take your kids out and teach the things that matter.
Now to the original post. I have family commitment, so pretty much I will never thru hike the AT. I will however section hike the heck out of it. I love my family too much to really waste 4 to 5 months away from them.
I think if I was single and had the time and money I would do it. In the grand scheme of things you could do a thru hike for just above the price of a two week exotic vacation, so money is not the big issue. Anyone can save up, hunt for sales on equiptment and build up over time.
Its the time and the commitments that get you.
Computers for me are mainly for gaming. I do a lot of stuff in the "real world", though, like hiking, reading, and whatever. As for doing things with real people, when I play multiplayer games, everyone there is a real person. Socializing to me for the most part is boring as hell. Most people really don't have anything worth listening to, want to talk about their new car or whatever.
Fiddleback
10-04-2010, 12:05
You weren't asking me but, since I have a sister that doesn't indulge her kids with every gadget out there I am going to put my two cents in.
She has two boys, one 23 and one still in college at 20. Her kids whined and cried about not having a computer, a cell phone, cable and $100 dollar sneakers. She said "no". Repeatedly, firmly, and consistantly. She flat out told them they did not "need" those things, and that they wouldn't "die" if they didn't get them. She also made it clear that she and her husband lived within their means and the kids were expected to also. By the time they were in middle school they were shoveling snow, babysitting and mowing lawns to make money of their own. If the kids got money from family for birthdays or Christmas or whatever, they were allowed to spend it as they pleased. Very quickly they learned to save and buy the expensive things they really wanted.
Yeah, there is a lot of peer pressure out there and kids can be very nasty. However, do you really want your kids hanging around with kids that make fun of someone because they don't have the latest Nikes? Now, my nephews were one of the few kids in their school with a pool so they always had other kids over. Plus they were good kids and very interesting because they were involved in a lot of different things.
Dealing with peer pressure is how a child builds character and good coping skills. Being able to deal with it in grammar school trains you to deal with it in highschool when the stakes are higher and what your peers are pressuring you to do is drink beer, smoke pot and cheat on the math exam. And those skills continue to grow and become refined in college when you are pressured to go out and get drunk instead of study, have sex with the frat boys to be accepted and "cool", and cheat on the final.
Hopefully by the time you are an adult you have actually learned that doing what everyone else is doing is a road to nowhere and makes you a very boring individual. Life skills are taught, and dealing with a little adversity as a child is how you learn to deal with a lot of it as an adult.
I like it!!
FB
left turn
10-04-2010, 12:13
i often wondered how people were able to take off from work for 6 months to do a thru hike since every job me and my hiking partners have ever had would only allow us to take off a week at a time. i never wondered if they were rich or how much money they made. just how their jobs would allow them to be gone for a couple of weeks up to 6 months with out losing that job.
with the jobs me and my hiking partners have/had if you wanted to take off a month to 6 months you would have to quit the job and have saved up A LOT of money to make it happen, and quitting a job in this economy is not the smartest thing to do. the way i look at it now is anything is possible if you want it to be, but i'm still not in a position to take off from work and do a thru hike no matter how bad i want it to happen, but until i figure it out i'm happy being a weekend warrior and doing week long trips at a time and could careless what other people are doing. if others are able to make it happen then good for them, i just haven't figured it out yet
JAK you should read Super Sad True Love Story.
I don't spend any time texting or on Facebook but I spend too much time here. I also get some kind of bug to learn or do something and then scour the internet for hours and hours searching for information. The latest thing is shoe making. I'm in a daze half the time either thinking about how to make shoes or thinking about hiking the PCT. I'm very sick. ;)
tucker0104
10-04-2010, 13:46
I work as a nuclear engineer for about 6 more years and then will have my house paid off. I am going to take a year to hike where ever I want and then will think about what I want to do after that.
And how old are you now? Has that worked out?
Mid 40's.Yes at 26 i have a free and clear lakefront home,and i take 4 or more months off a year.I should just quit ...but i'm just SLOW.:D
mweinstone
10-05-2010, 05:27
if you make money your breaking the law.if you make money and dont tell anyone your breaking the law. if you make money and travel with it without telling anyone your breaking the law. if you break money your breaking the law. if you give money to a visiter with no papers your breaking the law. if you have no money your breaking the law. if you built a car that ran on pennies and got 100 miles to the pound of pennies you would be breaking the law. if you designed and made smart money that could not be faked or destroyed or stolen or unaccounted for and could be used toend the need to print more money, and took it to the government and gave it to them to study and develope you would be breaking the law. hate money. allways will.
You weren't asking me but, since I have a sister that doesn't indulge her kids with every gadget out there I am going to put my two cents in.
She has two boys, one 23 and one still in college at 20. Her kids whined and cried about not having a computer, a cell phone, cable and $100 dollar sneakers. She said "no". Repeatedly, firmly, and consistantly. She flat out told them they did not "need" those things, and that they wouldn't "die" if they didn't get them. She also made it clear that she and her husband lived within their means and the kids were expected to also. By the time they were in middle school they were shoveling snow, babysitting and mowing lawns to make money of their own. If the kids got money from family for birthdays or Christmas or whatever, they were allowed to spend it as they pleased. Very quickly they learned to save and buy the expensive things they really wanted.
Yeah, there is a lot of peer pressure out there and kids can be very nasty. However, do you really want your kids hanging around with kids that make fun of someone because they don't have the latest Nikes? Now, my nephews were one of the few kids in their school with a pool so they always had other kids over. Plus they were good kids and very interesting because they were involved in a lot of different things.
Dealing with peer pressure is how a child builds character and good coping skills. Being able to deal with it in grammar school trains you to deal with it in highschool when the stakes are higher and what your peers are pressuring you to do is drink beer, smoke pot and cheat on the math exam. And those skills continue to grow and become refined in college when you are pressured to go out and get drunk instead of study, have sex with the frat boys to be accepted and "cool", and cheat on the final.
Hopefully by the time you are an adult you have actually learned that doing what everyone else is doing is a road to nowhere and makes you a very boring individual. Life skills are taught, and dealing with a little adversity as a child is how you learn to deal with a lot of it as an adult.
Nice post!
No JAK, it's not hopeless. Very little, if anything, is ever hopeless. There is always another way of doing something and someone, somewhere figures it out. While I agree with you that there is a lot wrong in this world it is still full of fantastic, wonderful, awe inspiring people. Some of them kids that are still learning how to navigate this confusing and sometimes frightening world.
Another nice post! I'm feeling it! - Someone who seeks to tenaciously hold onto hope, looks to be inspired, is open to positive solutions/options outside of the norm, and not only practices these skills themselves but is passing those skills onto children!!!
Way to go!
if you make money your breaking the law.if you make money and dont tell anyone your breaking the law. if you make money and travel with it without telling anyone your breaking the law. if you break money your breaking the law. if you give money to a visiter with no papers your breaking the law. if you have no money your breaking the law. if you built a car that ran on pennies and got 100 miles to the pound of pennies you would be breaking the law. if you designed and made smart money that could not be faked or destroyed or stolen or unaccounted for and could be used toend the need to print more money, and took it to the government and gave it to them to study and develope you would be breaking the law. hate money. allways will.
There's a guy in Utah living without money. His name is Suelo. He's got interesting religious ideas about money.
Danielsen
10-05-2010, 15:26
There's a guy in Utah living without money. His name is Suelo. He's got interesting religious ideas about money.
I'm curious: since most of the means by which we humans fed, sheltered, and clothed ourselves prior to the rise of civilization are now illegal without permits and licenses (which cost money) and paying taxes, how does he manage to do so without running afoul of the law? Does he rely on the kindness of strangers? I see how one could do that if there's enough kindness to go around, especially if you're willing to do work or help people in return for their help, but in the end that food and shelter still comes from money (with the kind people as proxy). I feel the real tragedy is that one cannot, so far as I know, live without money independently, providing their own food and shelter to themselves consistently.
Pedaling Fool
10-05-2010, 17:04
There's a guy in Utah living without money. His name is Suelo. He's got interesting religious ideas about money.
I would love to hear his rambling.
Why is it that people always want to demonize everything except bad people, such as those that create a ponzi scheme. Simple fact is that the overwhelming number of people that have money problems are victims of their own dumb ass.
Money has been around for ages, it came about primarily because on a large scale the barter system does not work.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab14
History of Money
Better than barter
Money, one of the earliest and most significant inventions of civilization, is essential to the development of trade. Without it there is only barter, a relationship between two people each of whom has something which the other wants.
Money (which everybody wants) provides an intermediary substance, enabling the seller to choose when and where he wishes to become a buyer.
All primitive societies invest certain things with a special value - particularly livestock, and items of rarity or beauty. They are presented on ceremonial occasions such as weddings. The possession of large numbers of cattle or pigs is clear evidence of wealth and prestige.
But these objects are not money in our sense, capable of easy use in everyday transactions.
The most often quoted example of primitive money is shells - in Africa cowries and wampum in America. The small cowrie shell, deriving from the Maldive Islands in the Indian Ocean, is a treasured item in the civilizations of China and India from very early times. From India these attractive objects are carried along the trade routes to Africa. Similarly the American Indians use a small white cylindrical shell for ceremonial gifts, embroidered on to decorated belts or other ornaments. Europeans give the name 'wampum' to these precious items.
Both wampum and cowries eventually become a market currency, in the conventional sense, but only after the arrival of Europeans (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=kab#kab).
The earliest currency used in commercial transactions appears in Egypt and Mesopotamia by the third millennium BC. It consists of gold bars which need to be weighed to establish their value each time they are exchanged. Later they are supplemented by gold rings for smaller sums. In about 2500 BC an extensive trade, at Ebla (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=106) in modern Syria, is based on currency of this kind in silver and gold.
Gold rings and ornaments, which can be worn for safe keeping as well as display, approach the ideal of a portable currency. Many poor women in India today still wear their limited wealth in this way, even when working in the fields or on the roads.
Safe in the temple: 18th century BC
Wealth compressed into the convenient form of gold brings one disadvantage. Unless well hidden or protected, it is easily stolen.
In early civilizations a temple is considered the safest refuge; it is a solid building, constantly attended, with a sacred character which itself may deter thieves. In Egypt and Mesopotamia gold is deposited in temples for safe-keeping. But it lies idle there, while others in the trading community or in government have desperate need of it. In Babylon (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=akg#akg) at the time of Hammurabi, in the 18th century BC, there are records of loans made by the priests of the temple. The concept of banking has arrived.
The first mint: 7th century BC
The earliest known coins in the western world come from the city of Ephesus in Ionia (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=ccq#ccq) (in western Turkey) in about 650 BC. The metal used is electrum, a natural alloy of gold and silver found locally. The coins are bean shaped and are struck on one side with a distinguishing mark, such as the image of a lion. The underlying purpose is to ensure a stable value in this variable metal of exchange, previously traded by weight alone. The state mint adds silver to the alloy to guarantee a mix of 55% gold to 45% silver.
A century later Croesus (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=cea#cea), king of neighbouring Lydia and famous for his wealth, becomes the first ruler to mint coins in pure gold and pure silver. Like the earlier coins, his are still stamped on just one side. They show the facing heads of a lion and a bull.
Greek cities, to the west of Lydia, and the great Persian empire to the east are quick to adopt the useful new technique of metal currency. By the end of the 6th century coinage is common throughout the region.
In distant Rome, as yet more backward, unworked lumps of bronze are now in use as currency. Their value is expressed in terms of sheep and cattle, a concept reflected still in the word 'pecuniary' in languages influenced by Latin. The Roman word for money, pecunia, derives from pecus, meaning cattle.
<A name=gkk><A name=gkj>Bronze coins in China: 7th - 3rd century BC
By one of the strange coincidences of history, the idea of coinage occurs at the same period in two far separated parts of the world. While the craftsmen of Ephesus (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=agz#agz) are striking coins in Asia Minor, the skilled casters of China are making coins by a different method - pouring molten bronze (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=bep#bep) into moulds.
The results look very different. The Chinese bronze-casters, accustomed to turning out elaborate shapes for ritual vessels, incline to something more complex than a simple round coin.
Two shapes in particular are characteristic of the first Chinese coins. Coins of one type resemble the metal part of a spade, while others are like a knife blade with a handle. In both cases the flat surfaces are decorated with Chinese characters. These designs are copied in nearly all the states of China during the later centuries of the Zhou dynasty (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=beu#beu).
Shi Huangdi (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=bfk#bfk), the first emperor of China, introduces the more rational round coin in the late 3rd century BC. Still cast in bronze rather than struck, they have a square hole in the middle - a shape characteristic of far eastern coins for the next two millennia.
<A name=bzj><A name=bzi>Greek and Roman financiers: from the 4th century BC
Banking activities in Greece are more varied and sophisticated than in any previous society. Private entrepreneurs, as well as temples and public bodies, now undertake financial transactions. They take deposits, make loans, change money from one currency to another and test coins for weight and purity.
They even engage in book transactions. Moneylenders can be found who will accept payment in one Greek city and arrange for credit in another, avoiding the need for the customer to transport or transfer large numbers of coins.
Rome, with its genius for administration, adopts and regularizes the banking practices of Greece. By the 2nd century AD a debt can officially be discharged by paying the appropriate sum into a bank, and public notaries are appointed to register such transactions.
The collapse of trade after the fall of the Roman empire makes bankers less necessary than before, and their demise is hastened by the hostility of the Christian church to the charging of interest. Usury comes to seem morally offensive. One anonymous medieval author declares vividly that 'a usurer is a bawd to his own money bags, taking a fee that they may engender together'.
<A name=gkm><A name=gkn>Origins of today's currencies: 7th - 16th century AD
Many of the units of currency in use today derive from Roman originals, and more specifically from versions of the Roman coins minted during the Middle Ages. The stable currency of the Byzantine empire is a gold coin, the solidus, linked in later history with the various forms of European shilling. From about 690 it is joined as a hard currency by another gold coin, the dinar (from the Latin denarius), first minted by the caliph Abd-al-Malik in Damascus in about 690.
In the following century the Frankish king Pepin III introduces a silver denarius, or penny, which becomes the standard medieval coin in western Europe.
Later kings of the Carolingian dynasty standardize the penny, decreeing that 240 are to be struck from a pound of silver. It is subsequently established that twelve silver pennies are to be considered the equivalent of the Byzantine gold solidus or shilling.
Thus there evolves a monetary scale of 1:12:20 (penny:shilling:pound) which prevails in much of Europe until the decimalizing innovations of the French Revolution, and in Britain until 1971. At first the silver penny is the only local currency of the three. The shilling is a Byzantine gold coin used as a yardstick of value, while the pound is a measure of weight. Shillings and pounds later become European coins in their own right.
Subsequent coins of lasting resonance are the Venetian ducat, first minted in 1284, and Florence's famous fiorino d'oro ('golden florin') launched in 1252. Bearing the city's own name, this widely respected coin becomes a factor in Florence's banking (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=giu#giu) success.
One of the most resonant names among modern currencies, that of the dollar, derives from a somewhat later coin - the large silver Joachimsthaler, widely known as the thaler, which is minted from 1517 in Bohemia and is named from the silver mines at Joachimsthal.
<A name=dzw><A name="">Paper money in China: 10th - 15th century AD
Paper money is first experimented with in China in about AD 910, during the Five Dynasties period. It is a familiar currency by the end of the century under the Song dynasty. Another three centuries later it is one of the things about China which most astonishes Marco Polo (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=fid#fid) (see Bank notes in China (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=340)).
He describes in great detail how the notes are authenticated, and then unwittingly touches on the danger lurking within the delightful freedom to print money. He says that the emperor of China makes so many notes each year that he could buy the whole treasure of the world, 'though it costs him nothing'. By the early 15th century inflation has become such a problem that paper currency is abolished in the Ming empire.
<A name=kad><A name=kae>Bank notes: AD 1661-1821
Paper currency (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=fid#fid) makes its first appearance in Europe in the 17th century. Sweden can claim the priority (as also, a few years later, in the first national bank (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=idu#idu)).
In 1656 Johan Palmstruch establishes the Stockholm Banco. It is a private bank but it has strong links with the state (half its profits are payable to the royal exchequer). In 1661, in consultation with the government, Palmstruch issues credit notes which can be exchanged, on presentation to his bank, for a stated number of silver coins.
Palmstruch's notes (the earliest to survive dates from a 1666 issue) are impressive-looking pieces of printed paper with eight hand-written signatures on each. If enough people trust them, these notes are genuine currency; they can be used to purchase goods in the market place if each holder of a note remains confident that he can indeed exchange it for conventional coins at the bank.
Predictably, the curse of paper money sinks the project. Palmstruch issues more notes than his bank can afford to redeem with silver. By 1667 he is in disgrace, facing a death penalty (commuted to imprisonment) for fraud.
Another half century passes before the next bank notes are issued in Europe, again by a far-sighted financier whose schemes come to naught. John Law, founder of the Banque Générale in Paris in 1716 (and later of the ill-fated Mississippi scheme (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=ipa#ipa)) issues bank notes from January 1719. Public confidence in the system is inevitably shaken when a government decree, in May 1720, halves the value of this paper currency.
Throughout the commercially energetic 18th century there are frequent further experiments with bank notes - deriving from a recognized need to expand the currency supply beyond the availability of precious metals.
Gradually public confidence in these pieces of paper increases, particularly when they are issued by national banks with the backing of government reserves. In these circumstances it even becomes acceptable that a government should impose a temporary ban on the right of the holder of a note to exchange it for silver. This limitation is successfully imposed in Britain during the Napoleonic wars. The so-called Restriction Period lasts from 1797 to 1821.
With governments issuing the bank notes, the inherent danger is no longer bankruptcy but inflation. When the Restriction Period ends, in 1821, the British government takes the precaution of introducing the gold standard.
<A name=kab><A name=kac>Minting shells: 16th - 18th century AD
The age of European exploration, from the 16th century, leads to interesting encounters between traders accustomed to a cash economy and traditional tribes valuing shells (cowries in Africa, wampum in America) as precious objects used primarily for ceremonial purposes. The Europeans, eager to trade in regions where there is no established coinage, make use of the value attached to these shells - and in doing so transform them, for a while, into a conventional currency (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=dzw#dzw).
In both regions the result is massive inflation. The Europeans, finding they have the power to flood the market with shells, inevitably debase the currency.
In America the colonists in the 18th century go to the length of inventing a machine which can manufacture white shell beads accepted as wampum by their Indian trading partners.
The African market is even more easily flooded with shell currency. Cowries, previously brought with difficulty to India and then overland through Africa, are now imported in shiploads by Dutch and British ships calling at the Maldives (http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=kaa#kaa) on their way back from the far east. They become a standard part of the price for slaves in west Africa. It has been calculated that during the 18th century more than 10,000 tons of these shells are brought round the Cape. By 1770 the price of a single slave is about 150,000 cowries.
Simple fact is that the overwhelming number of people that have money problems are victims of their own dumb ass.- John Gault
This comment is going to offend those that are financially poor, but it is so downright true for the financially poor masses! It's always some one else's fault why the financially poor are financially poor. Some believe the financially poor's own behavior and thoughts have nothing to do with being financially poor when this is the primary reason why the poor are poor! It also leads to sterotyping why the financially wealthy are so wealthy - they must have stole, inherited, or won it in a lottery!, NOT THAT THEY MIGHT JUST HAVE EARNED IT! while along the way altering their behaviors, thoughts, and perspectives concerning being financially wealthy.
Nice post!
Another nice post! I'm feeling it! - Someone who seeks to tenaciously hold onto hope, looks to be inspired, is open to positive solutions/options outside of the norm, and not only practices these skills themselves but is passing those skills onto children!!!
Way to go!
Thank you.
Suelo chooses a moneyless existence on purpose, not due to bad decision-making. He mainly survives on the kindness of people and the waste of consumer society. His religious ideas are interesting. He argues that the credit/debit system of money is what is referred to as the Fall and the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Bible. The fall from living in the gift economy of nature and moving to the credit/debit system of money. You can easily find him searching on moneyless and suelo. You'll find his blog and then look for the link to his web site where he goes in depth on his ideas in his FAQ.
Suelo chooses a moneyless existence on purpose, not due to bad decision-making. He mainly survives on the kindness of people and the waste of consumer society. His religious ideas are interesting. He argues that the credit/debit system of money is what is referred to as the Fall and the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Bible. The fall from living in the gift economy of nature and moving to the credit/debit system of money. You can easily find him searching on moneyless and suelo. You'll find his blog and then look for the link to his web site where he goes in depth on his ideas in his FAQ.
A guy living a moneyless existence with a blog and website?
Danielsen
10-06-2010, 16:06
Free internet access isn't hard to find these days. When I was homeless for a summer I used the local internet's library quite regularly (the librarians are quite friendly to me, I must admit, probably due to the continuous stream of late-book-fine revenue I generated when I was in highschool. :D ).
Skidsteer
10-06-2010, 21:15
Tanstaafl.
Free internet access isn't hard to find these days. When I was homeless for a summer I used the local internet's library quite regularly (the librarians are quite friendly to me, I must admit, probably due to the continuous stream of late-book-fine revenue I generated when I was in highschool. :D ).
Living off the largess of others and taxpayers and saying you're living a moneyless existence is disingenuous at best IMO.
This comment is going to offend those that are financially poor, but it is so downright true for the financially poor masses! It's always some one else's fault why the financially poor are financially poor. Some believe the financially poor's own behavior and thoughts have nothing to do with being financially poor when this is the primary reason why the poor are poor! It also leads to sterotyping why the financially wealthy are so wealthy - they must have stole, inherited, or won it in a lottery!, NOT THAT THEY MIGHT JUST HAVE EARNED IT! while along the way altering their behaviors, thoughts, and perspectives concerning being financially wealthy.
Some jobs are just low paying. It doesn't mean that people are doing something wrong.
I guess no one should do lower paying jobs, but then there wouldn't be any teachers, retail workers, home health aides, nursing aides, etc. I hardly find these people lazy. No one would work in my field that's for sure!
Not all lower income people 'blame' everyone else for their finances. That's kind of a silly thing to say.
Some jobs are just low paying. It doesn't mean that people are doing something wrong.
I guess no one should do lower paying jobs, but then there wouldn't be any teachers, retail workers, home health aides, nursing aides, etc. I hardly find these people lazy. No one would work in my field that's for sure!
.
I would add most garbage collectors, most janitors, and most reporters for regional and local newspapers to your list of very important, but underpaid jobs.
Weary
Danielsen
10-06-2010, 22:23
Living off the largess of others and taxpayers and saying you're living a moneyless existence is disingenuous at best IMO.
Well, I never said I was living a moneyless existence, just a houseless one. ;) My own thoughts on Suelo have a similar bent to your own, as stated:
"I'm curious: since most of the means by which we humans fed, sheltered, and clothed ourselves prior to the rise of civilization are now illegal without permits and licenses (which cost money) and paying taxes, how does he manage to do so without running afoul of the law? Does he rely on the kindness of strangers? I see how one could do that if there's enough kindness to go around, especially if you're willing to do work or help people in return for their help, but in the end that food and shelter still comes from money (with the kind people as proxy). I feel the real tragedy is that one cannot, so far as I know, live without money independently, providing their own food and shelter to themselves consistently."
You can't participate legally in our society without money unless you depend on other tax-paying people to essentially subsidize your existence. I feel that that's a tragedy, but I won't deny that it's also the truth.
I would add most garbage collectors, most janitors, and most reporters for regional and local newspapers to your list of very important, but underpaid jobs.
Weary
Definetely, I completely agree!
Some jobs are just low paying. It doesn't mean that people are doing something wrong.
I guess no one should do lower paying jobs, but then there wouldn't be any teachers, retail workers, home health aides, nursing aides, etc. I hardly find these people lazy. No one would work in my field that's for sure!
Not all lower income people 'blame' everyone else for their finances. That's kind of a silly thing to say.
Whoa! I never equated having a lower paying/lower income job with being financially poor! They ARE NOT necessarily the same thing. I know MANY who have lower paying jobs that I would not consider financially poor, largely because they have learned to live within their means and be good stewards of their finances. I also never said that financially poor folks are necessarily lazy. Some, possibly many, financially poor folks toil exceedingly hard for the money they do earn, but being financially poor doesn't begin and end with the AMOUNT of money earned but ALSO includes how the money is managed, spent, invested, etc!
Well actually I do not have children or pets or long term debt. And this, for now, is why: because I want to do other things. - Tilly
When I have children and/or pets I will not be considering long distance hiking any longer, because I will have other personal responsibilities. Taking a long, hard look at my life, support, and finances, I simply cannot combine the two, and most people can't. - Tilly
I think it GREAT that you understand where you are at. BUT, again, I say that it is possible to thru-hike and still meet other responsibilities associated with non-trail life(like caring for children)! Others have managed to do it! I so chose to primarily focus on those who have accomplished this! I am a CAN DO person. That's the way I'm wired. I've learned to overcome difficult challenges and obstacles. I look for a "WAY." I don't care to include myself in the category of "what most people can't/can do! I don't think anyone who has noticeably accomplished great feats let themselves be limited by what the avg person/masses believed or practiced - whether that person be Christopher Columbus, Albert Einstein, Earl Shaffer, or Bill Erwin, etc!
The simple fact is that most thruhikers on the trail are either young or retired...ie no children or grown children, no mortgage or paid mortgage. The people in between are very few. I think most would agree with this. - Tilly
Sure! Some people with children/families/mortgages/careers thru hike and make 6 months happen. But they are rare. Many on this site have posted that they are waiting for their child to reach 18/be done with college/etc., then they will take off to hike. - Tilly
I think it GREAT that some have found their way!
Also, it is two completely different things to be away from your existing responsibilites for SIX MONTHS versus a few weeks. I am not talking about taking off and doing things for a week or a few weeks. I am talking about taking 6 months off for long distance hiking. They are hardly the same thing. - Tilly
Absolutely!
There are just choice you have to make in life I suppose. Again, I'm glad that some people with children/family/mortgages/household to support have managed to hike with all that on their plate. But I know I won't--and judging by who is on the trail, most don't. - Tilly
My problem with the last 3 paragraphs is that I find so many who would attempt a thru-hike, or for that matter attain something substantial, something great in life, instead decide to align themselves with what "most" do! This is one of the problems that can develop when we attempt to pigeon hole/define the avg thru-hiker. I've noticed a great many people shrink back from taking that first step or seeking solutions/other options because someone told them, "that's not what normal/avg people do, that's not what most people do, or that's not what the statistics tell us." They allow themselves to become victims of statistics and take on the belief that what they themselves are capable of has been pre-determined by the behavior of the "norm." The avg/most thru-hiker category becomes "the" measure by which our own actions start becoming influenced. I, for one, refuse to buy into that limiting boundary minded faulty logic. We, as humans, are capable of so much more! - if we would release the brakes and let go of the limiting beliefs! Let us be rare, the fringe, the abnormal, the trail blazers - INDEED!
The Solemates
10-07-2010, 09:28
I would add most ....most reporters for regional and local newspapers to your list of very important....jobs.
Weary
that's going a bit far :eek:
Pedaling Fool
10-07-2010, 10:32
Suelo chooses a moneyless existence on purpose, not due to bad decision-making. He mainly survives on the kindness of people and the waste of consumer society. His religious ideas are interesting. He argues that the credit/debit system of money is what is referred to as the Fall and the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Bible. The fall from living in the gift economy of nature and moving to the credit/debit system of money. You can easily find him searching on moneyless and suelo. You'll find his blog and then look for the link to his web site where he goes in depth on his ideas in his FAQ.
I checked out his site, but sorry I don't see anything unique about this guy's philosophy; sounds like typical rambling of the various hippie offshoots. I don't have anything against him and some things I agree with, especially the wastefulness of our society. And other things I don't get the point, like how he says money is not good or evil, because no illusion can be good or evil -- so what's the problem? There's no secret there, everyone knows money has no inherent value and in a sense it is an illusion. Illusion is an important part of life, just as much as reality; and there can be a real debate of at what point illusion stops and reality begins.
Simple fact is there would be no computers, medicine, neat ultralight tents...without money. Nearly everything we (him included) enjoy in society is a product of money. I agree it would be nice if we could make an advance society without money or other type of incentive other than brotherly fellowship, but that's just the nature of us -- it is our animal instinct. Maybe some day we'll evolve past it, but until then we're stuck in this illusion.
Let's talk about marriage... I have the perfect marriage and if yours isn't just like mine I feel sorry for you.
(I say that because this thread reminds me of another thread that devolved to that point a while back. People with more traditional marriages thought theirs were better, etc. etc. Just like we all think we got it going on when it comes to money management and lifestyle choices.)
Old Hiker
10-07-2010, 11:20
Tanstaafl.
Only if the Moon is a Harsh Mistress! :sun
Or if your cat can walk through walls.
that's going a bit far :eek:
A good local newspaper records as best it can the life of a community. Having that source of knowledge is valuable to communities and to democratic government.
I'm not going to defend or trash Suelo. I just thought his religious perspective (which is not on his blog but elsewhere) was interesting.
I found that life on the trail was similar to his life. Owning few posessions, being helped by strangers, the serendipity of the trail, finding things that are needed just when they are needed most, a lot of my gear was made of recycled trash, I dumpster dived for boxes to mail stuff and found things I would take with me sometimes. He's found a way to sort of live that kind of life on an ongoing basis.
If I ever find myself without a job, here's a guy who has managed to live a long time without a job. If he can do it, maybe I can do it too. It's kind of how the trail offers a hole in the fence to this crazy society and so does this guy. I like to collect these holes in the fence to extend my own finances and enhance my own life, keep me from worrying I'll fall through the cracks if something bad happens to me.
In other words, rather than get caught up in trying to determine if this guy is righteous or not, I take what I like and leave the rest.
On the original subject, I have pets but was able to have someone care for them while I was away. I will gladly reciprocate when/if that person ever decides to leave the pets and go for a 6 month hike. I do notice that my absence has had a negative effect on my parrot. She obsessively follows me around the house now. Before she was pretty independent.
"most reporters for regional and local newspapers to your list of very important, but underpaid jobs."
that's going a bit far :eek:
Actually, local reporters do not make much money at all. I suppose you are insinuating that they are bad people, or that they don't deserve what they get...I like my local newspaper though. I like getting community news that I would not get from national outlets since I live in a smaller area.
My problem with the last 3 paragraphs is that I find so many who would attempt a thru-hike, or for that matter attain something substantial, something great in life, instead decide to align themselves with what "most" do! This is one of the problems that can develop when we attempt to pigeon hole/define the avg thru-hiker. I've noticed a great many people shrink back from taking that first step or seeking solutions/other options because someone told them, "that's not what normal/avg people do, that's not what most people do, or that's not what the statistics tell us." They allow themselves to become victims of statistics and take on the belief that what they themselves are capable of has been pre-determined by the behavior of the "norm." The avg/most thru-hiker category becomes "the" measure by which our own actions start becoming influenced. I, for one, refuse to buy into that limiting boundary minded faulty logic. We, as humans, are capable of so much more! - if we would release the brakes and let go of the limiting beliefs! Let us be rare, the fringe, the abnormal, the trail blazers - INDEED![/QUOTE]
Yeah, I guess you can. If you have a family, you can put all the responsibility on your spouse to make all the money and watch the kids and take care of everything else that goes along with it. If you have that situation it would be fine.
Your trailblazers were all men who undoubtably had women at home to take care of their households!
I think that having a family and kids in itself is 'substantial' and 'something great in life.' Taking care of your primary responsibilites isn't something to put down or accuse people of just going with the status quo because they are afraid.
I hardly think I have 'faulty-minded logic.'
I have enough money to last me the rest of my life!
If I make I to next Tuesday!
"On the original subject, I have pets but was able to have someone care for them while I was away. I will gladly reciprocate when/if that person ever decides to leave the pets and go for a 6 month hike. I do notice that my absence has had a negative effect on my parrot. She obsessively follows me around the house now. Before she was pretty independent."
That's interesting that she had such a personality change. I guess she missed you!
I have enough money to last me the rest of my life!
If I make I to next Tuesday!
That works:)
In other words, rather than get caught up in trying to determine if this guy is righteous or not, I take what I like and leave the rest. - SBHikes
By dropping the ego/the need to prove yourself or your group right you lose the judgment. Then your eyes, heart, emotions, mind, and spirit become more aware/awakened with POSSIBILITIES because the rush to judgment is not clouding your behavior. That's a nugget of wisdom you shared SBHikes!
Well said!
Pedaling Fool
10-07-2010, 16:57
In other words, rather than get caught up in trying to determine if this guy is righteous or not, I take what I like and leave the rest. - SBHikes
By dropping the ego/the need to prove yourself or your group right you lose the judgment. Then your eyes, heart, emotions, mind, and spirit become more aware/awakened with POSSIBILITIES because the rush to judgment is not clouding your behavior. That's a nugget of wisdom you shared SBHikes!
Well said!
I basically agree with you Dogwood. However, when someone introduces a topic that interests me and I ask for clairification, then I give my opinion that's not necessarily being judgemental or egotistical. I just like comparing philosophies. I don't claim to have the answer. This is a public forum and once it's thrown out there it's up for grabs.
I'm not a fear monger, but I say scary stuff.
I'm not judgemental, but I give my judgement.
I'm not opinionated, but I do have opinions.
I'm not arrogant, but I have something to say.
I'm not egotistical, but I do say I.
Yeah, I guess you can. If you have a family, you can put all the responsibility on your spouse to make all the money and watch the kids and take care of everything else that goes along with it. If you have that situation it would be fine.
Your trailblazers were all men who undoubtably had women at home to take care of their households!
I think that having a family and kids in itself is 'substantial' and 'something great in life.' Taking care of your primary responsibilites isn't something to put down or accuse people of just going with the status quo because they are afraid. - Tilly
OF COURSE, having a family and children is substantial and something VERY GREAT in life. OF COURSE, taking care of responsibilities/obligations/committments should be a given. OF COURSE, everyone's situation is different. Those are not the issues of my comments though! What I've been saying all along is that folks have managed to hike AND, at the same time, meet off trail responsibilities and obligations. However, it may take some imagination, believing and considering that other responsible options exists, and then having the vision and fortitude to pursue your passions! AGAIN, I say the situation of being responsible for a young family with children and hiking DO NOT have to be mutually exclusive. Folks have been known to responsibly do both things at one time! IT IS NOT an either or situation for everyone! AND, the folks that do manage to accomplish both feats at the same time ARE NOT somehow in some "special' situation/category. Don't let that be an excuse for not stepping forward, reaching out, and exploring options. If you too had children and also wanted to hike YOU TOO COULD find a way that would be right for you and your situation. You don't see that yet though!
Heck, a blind man managed to thru-hike the AT! Think about that! Does that not inspire you to find solutions for your own "special" situation?
BTW, I met 3 or 4 young(below 40 yrs of age) married female AT thru-hikers WITH young children in 2006 that managed to pull off thru-hikes. Their husbands and other family members stayed home with the children! I would say none of the women struck me as being irresponsible in regard to taking care of their families or selfish. They all seemed to have close loving ties with their families. I know at least 2 of the female thru-hikers met their families at least twice on the AT while thru-hiking the AT so as to get the children involved with their journeys.
I tell you all this to demonstrate that what I say is not some inspirational pie-in-the-sky nebulous pipe dream. People are capable of so much more than, sometimes, their ingrained thinking processes and habitual behaviors currently allow. I say, "STOP MAGNIFYING THE PROBLEMS, THINK BIG, THINK SOLUTIONS, THINK OUTSIDE OF THE NORM!" DON'T BE A STATISTIC! YOU MIGHT BE AMAZED AT WHAT IS POSSIBLE!
Oh, John I was not referring to you personally or any other poster about being egotistical or judgmental. I was referring to SBHikes and commenting on her belief.
Pedaling Fool
10-07-2010, 20:29
Oh, John I was not referring to you personally or any other poster about being egotistical or judgmental. I was referring to SBHikes and commenting on her belief.
I understand. I was on the fence about it so I flipped a coin, it was tails so I had to post:D
....OF COURSE, having a family and children is substantial and something VERY GREAT in life. OF COURSE, taking care of responsibilities/obligations/committments should be a given. OF COURSE, everyone's situation is different. Those are not the issues of my comments though! What I've been saying all along is that folks have managed to hike AND, at the same time, meet off trail responsibilities and obligations. However, it may take some imagination, believing and considering that other responsible options exists, and then having the vision and fortitude to pursue your passions! AGAIN, I say the situation of being responsible for a young family with children and hiking DO NOT have to be mutually exclusive. Folks have been known to responsibly do both things at one time! IT IS NOT an either or situation for everyone! AND, the folks that do manage to accomplish both feats at the same time ARE NOT somehow in some "special' situation/category. Don't let that be an excuse for not stepping forward, reaching out, and exploring options. If you too had children and also wanted to hike YOU TOO COULD find a way that would be right for you and your situation. You don't see that yet though!
Heck, a blind man managed to thru-hike the AT! Think about that! Does that not inspire you to find solutions for your own "special" situation?
BTW, I met 3 or 4 young(below 40 yrs of age) married female AT thru-hikers WITH young children in 2006 that managed to pull off thru-hikes. Their husbands and other family members stayed home with the children! I would say none of the women struck me as being irresponsible in regard to taking care of their families or selfish. They all seemed to have close loving ties with their families. I know at least 2 of the female thru-hikers met their families at least twice on the AT while thru-hiking the AT so as to get the children involved with their journeys.
I tell you all this to demonstrate that what I say is not some inspirational pie-in-the-sky nebulous pipe dream. People are capable of so much more than, sometimes, their ingrained thinking processes and habitual behaviors currently allow. I say, "STOP MAGNIFYING THE PROBLEMS, THINK BIG, THINK SOLUTIONS, THINK OUTSIDE OF THE NORM!" DON'T BE A STATISTIC! YOU MIGHT BE AMAZED AT WHAT IS POSSIBLE!
There are always exceptions. And wise folks are alert to the possibility. But the possibility of taking six months off without pay when my family was young did not exist. Nor was the chance of returning at the end of the six months to a job I loved significantly greater than zero.
To imagine possible alternative scenarios is certainly fun, but not realistic in the real world. Not in the 70s and 80s when the thought first crossed my mind, and even less so now, when real middle class wages have been slumping for a decade or longer.
Weary
To imagine possible alternative scenarios is certainly fun, but not realistic in the real world. - Weary
REALLY? Passionately pursuing solutions/alternatives/new paradigms, and yes even new imaginations/dreams, is at the heart of innovation, great discovery, and evolution as a species. It's what drives us forward!
Why do so many keep mentioning "taking six months off without pay was not an option" as an obstacle to thru-hiking as if everyone who goes on a thru-hike/hike does it without any planning or far in advance knowledge as if it's always done without any preparation on the spur of the moment? Excuse me for being disillusioned, but can't part of the up-front planning for a hike include making prior financial arrangements for when you will be hiking? It seems to me, again maybe because I'm disillusioned, or perhaps because I have tasted of what it's like to touch the stars, that if a busy CEO with a young family can find a way to organize a hike and also take care of their family and biz responsibilities, if a blind man can stumble more than 3000 times to hike the entire AT, if 4 dirt poor homeless folks can find ways to complete thru-hikes, if the 3-4 young wedded mothers with young families can find ways to complete thru-hikes AND also take care of their families at the same time, if 3 drug addicts in the midst of beating their addictions can accomplish thru-hikes, if Earl Schaffer can find a way to complete a thru-hike when just before he accomplished this feat it was said that a thru-hike of the AT would be virtually impossible, if the various practicing doctors, lawyers, judges, and engineers WITH families can find ways to thru-hike, IF I can find ways to hike AND still meet other off-trail responsibilities/obligations, and if ALL those others who have FOUND WAYS to responsibly hike what does that say about your situation? THINK ABOUT THAT! STOP! THINK ABOUT THAT! I KNOW ALL THESE PEOPLE IN THOSE SITUATIONS WHO COMPLETED AT THRU-HIKES! DON"T THOSE STORIES OF OVERCOMING GREAT CHALLENGES INSPIRE YOU TO ALSO PURSUE POSITIVE ALTERNATIVES/SOLUTIONS/REALITIES. WHAT IF YOU WERE THE EXCEPTION? WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ONE WHO WAS LABELED AS BEING UNREALISTIC?
WHAT IF YOU CREATED A NEW DEFINITION FOR YOURSELF OF WHAT WAS REALISTIC?
To imagine possible alternative scenarios is certainly fun, but not realistic in the real world. - Weary
REALLY? Passionately pursuing solutions/alternatives/new paradigms, and yes even new imaginations/dreams, is at the heart of innovation, great discovery, and evolution as a species. It's what drives us forward!
Why do so many keep mentioning "taking six months off without pay was not an option" as an obstacle to thru-hiking as if everyone who goes on a thru-hike/hike does it without any planning or far in advance knowledge as if it's always done without any preparation on the spur of the moment? Excuse me for being disillusioned, but can't part of the up-front planning for a hike include making prior financial arrangements for when you will be hiking? It seems to me, again maybe because I'm disillusioned, or perhaps because I have tasted of what it's like to touch the stars, that if a busy CEO with a young family can find a way to organize a hike and also take care of their family and biz responsibilities, if a blind man can stumble more than 3000 times to hike the entire AT, if 4 dirt poor homeless folks can find ways to complete thru-hikes, if the 3-4 young wedded mothers with young families can find ways to complete thru-hikes AND also take care of their families at the same time, if 3 drug addicts in the midst of beating their addictions can accomplish thru-hikes, if Earl Schaffer can find a way to complete a thru-hike when just before he accomplished this feat it was said that a thru-hike of the AT would be virtually impossible, if the various practicing doctors, lawyers, judges, and engineers WITH families can find ways to thru-hike, IF I can find ways to hike AND still meet other off-trail responsibilities/obligations, and if ALL those others who have FOUND WAYS to responsibly hike what does that say about your situation? THINK ABOUT THAT! STOP! THINK ABOUT THAT! I KNOW ALL THESE PEOPLE IN THOSE SITUATIONS WHO COMPLETED AT THRU-HIKES! DON"T THOSE STORIES OF OVERCOMING GREAT CHALLENGES INSPIRE YOU TO ALSO PURSUE POSITIVE ALTERNATIVES/SOLUTIONS/REALITIES. WHAT IF YOU WERE THE EXCEPTION? WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ONE WHO WAS LABELED AS BEING UNREALISTIC?
WHAT IF YOU CREATED A NEW DEFINITION FOR YOURSELF OF WHAT WAS REALISTIC?
Your examples mostly strike me as far easier paths towards a thru hike than that facing a young family living on low wages with hospital bills and a house mortgage.
Weary
It's not always an imposition on the wife (or man in my case) back home. After I did my hike I was so totally STOKED that my boyfriend wanted to do a 700 mile section of his own. I was thrilled to have the chance to send his resupplies, follow his journal and his progress, hear his stories, send him little treats, try to meet him on the trail and yes, probably most of all, HAVE THE WHOLE HOUSE TO MYSELF!!
Unfortunately his hike lasted only 170 miles because he fell and sprained his ankle. I think I was more devastated when he came home early than he was.
It's not always an imposition on the wife (or man in my case) back home. After I did my hike I was so totally STOKED that my boyfriend wanted to do a 700 mile section of his own. I was thrilled to have the chance to send his resupplies, follow his journal and his progress, hear his stories, send him little treats, try to meet him on the trail and yes, probably most of all, HAVE THE WHOLE HOUSE TO MYSELF!!
Unfortunately his hike lasted only 170 miles because he fell and sprained his ankle. I think I was more devastated when he came home early than he was.
Now add struggling to survive from paycheck to paycheck and three young children to the equation.
Weary
Did you ever hear of saved up vacation pay?
Did you ever hear of saved up vacation pay?
Of course. I envied those -- mostly government -- workers who could save up endless vacation time. The more common practice, at least during my working years, was "use it or lose it."
Weary
Government workers? I'm sorry but private industry workers save up tons of vacation time all the time. My boyfriend had a month's worth until recently. I've had a month's worth several different times at several different jobs over my years of working, including at some lower-paying jobs. I'd say it's probably easier for private industry workers to save up a lot of unused vacation time since it's so dang hard to ever use it.
The Solemates
10-08-2010, 13:48
Government workers? I'm sorry but private industry workers save up tons of vacation time all the time. My boyfriend had a month's worth until recently. I've had a month's worth several different times at several different jobs over my years of working, including at some lower-paying jobs. I'd say it's probably easier for private industry workers to save up a lot of unused vacation time since it's so dang hard to ever use it.
this is a generalization, and is not the case in many (if not a majority) of private industry jobs. i work private industry and our vacation does not roll over year to year. if you dont use it, you lose it.
Pedaling Fool
10-08-2010, 14:05
I'm govt. and I couldn't save up endless vacation time and was limited on how much I could sell back. Maybe different for other govt workers, I don't know, but not the case for us military types.
flemdawg1
10-08-2010, 15:48
I'm govt. and I couldn't save up endless vacation time and was limited on how much I could sell back. Maybe different for other govt workers, I don't know, but not the case for us military types.
The limit for DOD folks is 240 hours, 6 weeks. Then you get into "use or Lose" territory.
The limit for DOD folks is 240 hours, 6 weeks. Then you get into "use or Lose" territory.
Limit for NYS workers is 320 hours, I think, I retired from the state 5 years ago and it is already hard to remember. Saved sick leave was higher, can't remember what that was, 1200 hours maybe? I am in private sector now and we have PTO with a use it or lose it policy.
Your examples mostly strike me as far easier paths towards a thru hike than that facing a young family living on low wages with hospital bills and a house mortgage.
Weary
It's always easier to assume you have a MUCH harder time accomplishing what others have accomplished because you have a UNIQUELY difficult situation that no one else has faced and overcome before! It's no different than believing you have the hardest job, life, marriage, etc etc etc than anyone else. Having this belief makes for convenient excuses why we don't take that first step/accomplish/find a way/succeed.
Woe is me.
I'll keep trying because we are still at the pt where we envision our situation/problems/issues/challenges/OPPORTUNITIES as being so large and insurmountable that they fill our thoughts, line of vision, and determine our actions. Magnifying and keenly focusing on the difficulty and supposed insurmountability of our situation(s) paralyzes and sidetracks us from seeking solutions/moving forward! Never going to make a breakthrough/move ahead if we stay in that place. Let's hear more about solutions! IS THAT POSSIBLE?
Can we possibly get to the pt where we finally say, "if a blind man can stumble 2200 miles through the woods and over the Appalacian Mountain chain, MAYBE, my situation is not all that impossible?"
It's always easier to assume you have a MUCH harder time accomplishing what others have accomplished because you have a UNIQUELY difficult situation that no one else has faced and overcome before! It's no different than believing you have the hardest job, life, marriage, etc etc etc than anyone else. Having this belief makes for convenient excuses why we don't take that first step/accomplish/find a way/succeed.
Woe is me.
I'll keep trying because we are still at the pt where we envision our situation/problems/issues/challenges/OPPORTUNITIES as being so large and insurmountable that they fill our thoughts, line of vision, and determine our actions. Magnifying and keenly focusing on the difficulty and supposed insurmountability of our situation(s) paralyzes and sidetracks us from seeking solutions/moving forward! Never going to make a breakthrough/move ahead if we stay in that place. Let's hear more about solutions! IS THAT POSSIBLE?
Can we possibly get to the pt where we finally say, "if a blind man can stumble 2200 miles through the woods and over the Appalacian Mountain chain, MAYBE, my situation is not all that impossible?"
Well, I exceeded in doing a number of useful things, against all predictions. I first told the people of Maine willing to listen that they owned 400,000 acres of land that they had forgotten about. I raised three fine kids. I founded a land trust that has protected 800 acres of land in a high priced town, and helped build 25 miles of trails on those lands.
I called Maine people's attention to the Maine mountains in the state, resulting in the public protection of some of the wildest sections and widest trail buffers of the entire Appalachian Trail.
But somethings would have been beyond my ability, like taking six months off at the age of 40 and hiking the AT, leaving a wife, a half rebuilt house, and three kids behind, in part maybe because such an absurdity never crossed my mind at the time.
I'm now trying to increase the narrow corrdidor that buffers the footpath in Maine. (You can help. Just open www.matlt.org)
So what are you trying to tell me, Dogwood.
Weary
So what are you trying to tell me, Dogwood. - Weary
Weary, if you read all my posts on this thread you might notice that everything I've been saying has not been specifically aimed at you, so don't take it that way. By now, with me hammering home my contentions over and over in several posts, I thought you would have been awakened to the ideas that I've been putting forth. If you don't yet know what I've been saying I suggest you carefully read(reread) through my posts and meditate on the ideas espoused.
I was aware of some of your selfless contributions to the AT and hiking in general, but I was not aware of the extent of your actions. THANK YOU! And, thanks for the link to Maine Appalacian Land Trust(MALT) and the High Peaks Initiative.
It's always easier to assume you have a MUCH harder time accomplishing what others have accomplished because you have a UNIQUELY difficult situation that no one else has faced and overcome before! It's no different than believing you have the hardest job, life, marriage, etc etc etc than anyone else. Having this belief makes for convenient excuses why we don't take that first step/accomplish/find a way/succeed.
Woe is me.
I'll keep trying because we are still at the pt where we envision our situation/problems/issues/challenges/OPPORTUNITIES as being so large and insurmountable that they fill our thoughts, line of vision, and determine our actions. Magnifying and keenly focusing on the difficulty and supposed insurmountability of our situation(s) paralyzes and sidetracks us from seeking solutions/moving forward! Never going to make a breakthrough/move ahead if we stay in that place. Let's hear more about solutions! IS THAT POSSIBLE?
Can we possibly get to the pt where we finally say, "if a blind man can stumble 2200 miles through the woods and over the Appalacian Mountain chain, MAYBE, my situation is not all that impossible?"Dogwood, I have been reading/have read your posts on this thread, and I believe I understand what you are saying. You are stating that "where there is a will, there is a way" and for people with major current obligations, such as people in the process of raising children, or for people with family obligations and who want to undertake other endeavors, (such as thru-hiking) that they can always be able to find a way to fulfill their goals and dreams and fulfill their pending life obligations at the same time if they are willing to be creative and think "outside the box". I think this pretty much sums up what you are trying to convey to other's. That if a blind man can thru-hike (which to me is amazing) then our current dilemmas certainly pale in comparison, and thus can be surmounted with the will and effort to do so. I agree that if we want to do it, plan on it, square away our finances and have other's willing to temporarily assume and take on additional responsibilities (such as raising our children without us temporarily) then we can do what you are saying. What I believe you fail to understand is that just because it is possible to fullfill these goals at a time when we are needed for family, role of breadwinner, provider ,nurturer, etc...we would not choose to or attempt to undertake our dreams and goals at present because to leave our children (for however long), our homes, our significant other's, etc...at this current stage when we are needed would simply not be desirable, honorable, and/or even enjoyable. I have heard on this site thru-hiking described as a "selfish thing to do", when one leaves another when it is not a mutual agreed upon endeavor, or when one is needed elswhere. I have also read one poster stating "I wouldn't trade 1 mile hiking with my kid on any trail for the opportunity to do 10 thru-hikes". So you see, you are right when you say that it is possible to fulfill dreams while we all have other pressing commitments, but you are wrong to think that we would choose to do so.
buzzamania
10-10-2010, 01:47
I think family obligations more than money or jobs keep people from long term backpacking trips. I take my kiddos with me for a week at a time but they are all under 12 years old. My 4 year old did 8 miles with me one day. But to do 3 months would not be possible right now. I look forward to the day that we do a month in the summer together.
We are all faced with choices throughout our lives. Most of us during the children nurturing, family bread winner years of our lives, put aside six month vacation dreams in favor of other, more realistic, challenges.
The fact that an occasional physician, engineer, blind person .... was able to thru hike is beside the point. Most of us, probably wisely, forego such pleasures, or conclude they would be impossible considering our finances at the time. I've always tended to choose activities that I considered most possible, responsible and valuable to me, my family, and occasionally to society.
Weary
The reason people tell you not to do something is usually because they would never do it themselves, they don't have the guts or courage, they are too afraid, etc...If you do it and are successful, then what does it say about them, how will they feel, etc... - Stranger
The fact that an occasional physician, engineer, blind person .... was able to thru hike is beside the point. - Weary
WOW! What a shallow ignorant slap in the face to all those people in those time consuming stressful highly responsible careers who managed to thru-hike while at the same time meet the obligations to their families and their careers.
Weary, are you blind? Have you EVER hiked one single mile in your entire life BLIND? I will assume you are not blind and have NEVER hiked one single mile blind! SO, you have not one single iota of knowing what this is like! Bill Erwin said he estimated that he fell 3000+ times while thru-hiking. He could have quit or said, "this is impossible" the first time he fell or the 3000 time he fell! BUT HE DIDN'T! He could have decided to NEVER take that first dangerous unknown step! BUT HE DID! He could have heeded what so many were probably telling him - " be realistic, don't try it, what are you crazy?, you can't do that, you are blind!, you are going to hurt or kill yourself, you are going to fall off a cliff." BUT, HE PRESSED FORWARD! HE DID THE IMPOSSIBLE! HE WAS UNREALISTIC! HE WENT AGAINST THE NORM! HE FOUND A WAY! And, you say, "the fact that an occasional... blind person was able to thru-hike is beside the pt."
THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT!
Most of us, probably wisely, forego such pleasures, or conclude they would be impossible considering our finances at the time. - Weary
If you were to say, "I currently am not in the position to thru-hike or I have yet to find a solution that other people have already discovered or after careful thought I'm planning on thru-hiking when my children are older or when I'm in better financial shape, etc I could buy that, but instead you have decided to demean/lower the value of others who have accomplished that which you have not because you have smacked right into the insurmountable wall of "impossibility."
I'm going to repeat what I said earlier. Thru-hiking and taking care of your family at the same time is a possibility! People do it! I know people who have done it! It DOES NOT have to be an either/or proposition! If it is your dream to thru-hike THERE IS A WAY TO RESPONSIBLY CARE FOR YOUR FAMILY AND THRU-HIKE AT THE SAME TIME! YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH TWO DREAMS AT THE SAME TIME - TAKE CARE OF THE FAMILY AND THRU-HIKE!
Danielsen
10-12-2010, 05:52
Much as I agree with a lot of the intent behind your posts, I don't think I've seen any posts recently saying you absolutely can't take care of your family and thru-hike in the last few pages, just that most people would rather not, either for practical reasons or because that's just not how they want to do their hikes or because in some cases it might be irresponsible (depending, of course, on the family status), y'know? The fact that some have done it (and other extraordinary things) doesn't mean everyone should. For most in less-thru-hike-conducive situations the extraordinary lengths they'd have to go to to make it work in their situation just aren't worth it as opposed to just putting off the thru until a more feasible point in their life or contenting themselves with sectioning. And there's nothing wrong with that.
BostonPro
10-12-2010, 09:48
When you have children, a lot of times you have to pay for the necessities over hobbies. Unfortunately, your savings can all be thrown down the drain over an unexpected disaster as a family. I understand living frugally but in the end it comes down to things occuring- aka life.
Dogwood. Most people are regularly faced with multiple choices. The wise among them make wise choices. For some of these wise people -- yea, even an occasional engineer, physician, or blind person -- the choice is to hike the Appalachian Trail.
For others it is not to hike the Appalachian Trail, at least not right then. My choice when my family was growing up and I was writing things I considered interesting for newspapers, was to not hike the Appalachian Trail, at least not all the way.
I did manage to hike more Maine mountains than almost anyone I know, canoed and fished a lot of wild rivers, took my three kids on many backpacking trips.
Looking back, I can think of an occasional choice I might done differently, but as they say, hindsight is always 20:20. For instance I got so involved in recent years working on land trust matters, that I never did a second long distance hike. Now my health won't permit it.
When I asked my doctor recently if I should attempt to climb Katahdin again. He replied, "it would be an act of insanity, but go ahead." I did.
Weary
There's nothing wrong with making such a choice. It is still a choice and some people are able to make different ones.
That ability to make different choices doesn't always come down to money, either. There are many different ways to live life.
When you are a suburban middle class person, it's really hard to see all the possibilities. You also get really pigeon-holed into thinking that only certain ways of doing things are the right way. For example, a middle-class suburban person gets it hammered into them that college is the ticket to a good life. But so many really successful people don't go to college. And yet you would NEVER forego college for you or your children because you are so trained to believe it's totally irresponsible not to go to college.
It's good to actively question assumptions and make choices, even if the choices you make end up being the more conservative ones. At least you considered your options. I'd say that choosing not to thru-hike until your kids are grown yet spending a lot of time enjoying backpacking in your local outdoors is making an excellent choice. At least you didn't sit home mowing the lawn and grumbling about your rotten life every weekend. People who do that aren't really making choices. They are simply blaming something outside themselves for the choices they didn't make.
I can see we are getting close to all sides agreeing.. :)
Johnny Thunder
10-12-2010, 21:51
31 million won. no taxes. paid-for apartment and airfare.