HIKING in the SOUTH in JANUARY [Archive]

The Solemates

12-01-2004, 18:17

Where you are heading dictates the answer to the question, but for a general answer to your general question:

Be prepared for a wide temperature range, which is typical in the south during january. Daytime temps could easily range from the 20s to the 60s, and nighttime temps could easily range from 0 to 40. Obviously, these are the two extremes. You could have sun, you could have rain, you could have snow. Just like anywhere else I guess.

I dont think you would need crampons, though others may disagree. I never carry them, nor snowshoes, and have hiked in the south (GSMNP) in up to 3 feet of snow and in southwestern PA in the same conditions.

Rain Man

12-01-2004, 18:18

Where are you starting and ending?

He said the SOUTH. So, it's obviously Patagonia!

The Devil made me do it!!!! LOL
:sun
Rain Man

.

chris

12-01-2004, 19:16

Honestly, I've never been anywhere in Southern Appalachia where crampons would be useful. An ice axe can be helpful, however, but only if you know how to use it and only in a few places, none of which, as far as I can recall, are on the AT. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Bring a book, a spare set of thermals for in camp (damp, sweaty thermals are no fun when you are sitting around), a headband for hiking and a hat for sitting. Bring a sit pad as well (cut up an old foam pad). Bring extra fuel. Make soup in the early evening before dinner for warming up. Pile on the calories to help you stay warm at night. Bring extra batteries, as battery life in the cold is short. Consider a balaclava (ski mask) instead of a hat. Enjoy having shelters to yourself. Leave mad notes in the registers to spook others in the spring time.

A-Train

12-01-2004, 19:35

Start early so you can maximize the day, since it gets dark ridiculously early. Definately have a book and a good headlamp and xtra batteries as Chris mentioned, as you'll be in for some long ass nights and you may not always want to go sleepy at 5pm.

Realize you may sometimes need to melt snow for water, so having a powerful stove as opposed to an alcohol stove may work to your advantage, such as a pocket rocket or whisperlite. Keeping your fuel or canister in a warm place helps make it heat easier, so you may want to consider stowing it in your jacket while you walk. DEFINATELY have good maps.

Have fun, sounds like you're in for a treat. Not many people out then and the views should be great with no foliage. Remember to call ahead to hostels/trail businesses if you're planning on staying over or sending a package. Some run irregular hours and days, but will plan on being around and open if you let them know you're coming.

MOWGLI

12-01-2004, 19:43

AaronTrvlr

12-01-2004, 22:14

thanks alot guys.
Yeah, sorry for not being clear about the South, being southern Appalachian.
Patagonia!, that was funny. Have you been there Rain Man?
I'm thinking of starting at the begginning, springer mountain.
Your the man Chris, those are great tips, I'm sure I'll use everyone.
Thanks to you too A-train.
Those tips help alot, and that little bit of knowledge has encouraged me further. I have a few weeks to prepare, so any more would be great.

Happy Trails
Thanks again,
Aaron

AaronTrvlr

12-01-2004, 22:34

orangebug

12-01-2004, 22:44

I'd bring sunglasses, but not goggles. I'd consider instep crampons, as Blood Mtn, for example, and get wicked slick with sleet. The balacava idea is sound, as is a hat that can protect you from sunburn when the temps are in the 60's to 70's and the balacava would be too toasty. Balacava's are great at night to keep you warm in camp.

Who knows how long it will take to GSMNP? I've seen folks take a month, other a week and a half. Weather and your conditioning will make the decision. Just remember that days are very short in January, and the opportunity to make miles depends on your ability to get organized and out of camp early.

MOWGLI

12-01-2004, 22:48

thanks again to everyone
thanks MOWGLI16 and the solemates

would i need goggles? maybe in the Smokies, i really dont know. what do you think.
I have 4 weeks, how long does it take to reach the Smokies from Springer? Someone told me 3 weeks in good weather.
Would there be a better place to start from, that would be of more interest?

Aaron

I don't see any reason to wear goggles on the trail. The Smokies is approximately 165 miles from Springer. If you average about 10 miles a day, it'll take you 2 weeks & 2 days to get there. The AT in the Smokies is about 70 miles (give or take). Once you get up on the ridge, the walking is fairly easy. Heading NOBO, some folks think day #1 is the toughest section of the AT in the park. Day #2 kicked my butt worse, but I was not in great trail shape yet.

In 4 weeks you could easily go from Springer to Hot Springs. You could reach Erwin, Tennessee if you are in good shape and want to bang out bigger mile days, but as others have said, the winter days are short. You'll be spending alot of time in your sleeping bag.

What's more interesting? It's all good!

Have a good time whatever you decide.

The Will

12-01-2004, 23:14

If you encounter weather that is really pushing the limits (or extending them by far) of your sleeping bag, take a vapor barrier liner (VBL). But know what to expect regarding the resulting humidity. If your not familiar with VBLs, I'll be happy to explain.

Also, when pushing the limits of my sleeping system, I boil enough water to fill a quart and a pint Nalgene. The quart bottle goes at my feet in one of those Outdoor Research bottle parkas and the pint bottle goes in my groin where it can transfer heat to some pretty major superficial arteries running down to the feet.

Your body is constantly "sweating", even in cold weather, in order to maintain homeostatic moisture levels on the skin. Be aware that while you are in your sleeping bag your body heat will keep this moisture in its gaseous state and "drive" it out of the bag. But as soon as you vacate the bag, that air will cool and the moisture will condense. I make it my practice to pack my sleeping bag immediately upon exiting to curtail moisture buildup.

Emphasize slow burning fuels (fat) for supper...a hunk of cheese, a candy bar laden with peanut butter...to keep your inner furnace burning all night.

If there is snow, you'll be getting UV radiation from above and below. I understand that the nasal septum is especially tender when burnt. Sunglasses and maybe a little sunscreen are worthy of your consideration.

An open cell foam pad is inadequate for cold, cold ground. Go with a closed cell pad or a combination of open and closed cell pads...open cell on top.

Keep your next to be used candy bar, lighter and batteries close to your body heat....maybe keep two lighters close to you just in case.

Enjoy!

Rain Man

12-01-2004, 23:57

Patagonia!, that was funny. Have you been there Rain Man?

No, but my daughter Grass has. She spent a year in Argentina as an exchange student.

So, I wuz just teasin' ya!

:sun
Rain Man

.

AaronTrvlr

12-02-2004, 00:03

Thanks alot The Will.
I don't think I will be pushing my limits that much on this trip, but your tips are great. Maybe after this trip my next venture would utilize your helpful pointers.

Please do tell me about the VBL. Does it build up humidity?
When you get out of your sleeping bag, and pack it right away; what if you are just going to take a leak, would it be sufficient to just close it up a bit, or do you pack it?
And would a thermarest pad be good? the kind you blow up, i believe so.

I understand that for doing alot of boiling and possible melting, a strong stove is needed. I plan on just burning alcohol, i shouldnt be in too extreme of conditions. Do you think i will be ok with this?

When you are pushing your limits, you carry a tent?

Thanks very much
Aaron

Glee

12-02-2004, 00:16

I've been doing some reading on this and trying it out in my sleeping bag. I've gotten some pretty different results with it. I've stayed warm, but I've woke up in a cup of water inside of my VBL. Which can be cold as well in the middle of the night.

I did a write up on some of it here
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=70078&postcount=10

I'm going North from Harpers Ferry to Vermont around late February and I'm trying to get as much info as possible as what I might run into and what I'll need for that time of year.

hikerdude

12-02-2004, 00:39

But for me I wear goggles I got the REC SPECS APX ALL PRO googles. It's cool with me if you wear contacts and no hat. I wear goggles and a Under Armour fleece beanie now. I know most don't wear goggles, but you don't understand, I wear them everywhere. Did I say Rec Specs APX all PRO are perscription lens, that's why they seem to be only for me.

So my point is; no matter what you tell people they won't wear a hat or goggle. I do. Only hair dye and contacts are the way.:-?

VBL's are for cold weather camping, to stop loosing 2 gallons of water to keep you skin from drying out basicly.

grandview

12-02-2004, 01:51

it gets colder than you might expect in the southern mountains...especially at night...come prepared...and enjoy

grandview

12-02-2004, 01:55

might want to consider a pocket rocket for the winter...i've had a little trouble with my coke can when it gets down in the low 30s.

orangebug

12-02-2004, 08:04

Alcohol probably won't cut it in Upstate SC in January, much less GA or NC. You might make do with a canister stove if you make plans on keeping it warm and the base insulated while you cook. A small corner of a trimmed closed cell pad should work. A white gas stove will work without any concern.

You can rig an emergency VBL by using large plastic trash bags. The trick is to secure it around your neck to keep it a vapor barrier. You may do as well with wearing more clothes in your sleeping bag. I carry VBL socks, which can be rigged with bread bags. These can keep you very happy during big rain and snow.

Consider at least bringing a cheap Target or WalMart blue closed cell mat along with your Thermorest. These are wider and make it easier to stay warm when your bag manages to move off of the blow up/open cell pad. I've done well with these with a 3/4 Ultra Guide Thermorest, and compare them well against Ridgerest or Z-Rest pads.

kncats

12-02-2004, 08:25

It's been my experience that a Thermarest self-inflatable sleeping pad is not enough in the winter time. They do not give adequate insulation from cold ground. The last time we were out it got down into the teens. We were trying 5/8 inch closed cell foams pads and they were plenty warm. Unfortunately, they were also really bulky and heavier than we'd like. Going to try next time out with a thinner closed cell pad and see how they do.

C-Stepper

12-02-2004, 09:22

might want to consider a pocket rocket for the winter...i've had a little trouble with my coke can when it gets down in the low 30s.I'm preparing for a late December hike and saw this statement...could you please explain what trouble you had? Was it higher fuel consumption, or trouble lighting the alcohol? I had read somewhere that you just warm the fuel first and it's no trouble, but fuel consumption is higher...is that a mistake? Thanks.

steve hiker

12-02-2004, 11:02

I sectioned the Smokies last January. It was beautiful, beyond words. But you may have trouble making 10 miles a day in places on the southern AT because of snow.

The trail between Peck's Corner and Cosby was buried under 2 feet of snow, and it was slow going, postholing. Take a step, your foot breaks through the snow a foot or more, lift leg out, repeat. Slow, tiring, and frustrating. It took me several hours, from mid afternoon until well after dark, to hike from Cosby to Tricorner shelter. Here's a snowfall map. As you'll see, average snowfall is much higher in the smokies than other sections of the southern AT, but those are averages only. So give yourself plenty of time to get to where you want to go.

http://friends.backcountry.net/snowmaps/

Also I agree about bringing a wide closed cell pad. The ground even on platforms in shelters will be very cold, and a pad will keep your arms comfortable during the night.

Enjoy your winter hike. There is nothing like seeing the patterns the snow makes on tree limbs on those ridges, and the other snowy scenery.

Youngblood

12-02-2004, 11:05

Thermarest In Winter

It's been my experience that a Thermarest self-inflatable sleeping pad is not enough in the winter time. They do not give adequate insulation from cold ground. The last time we were out it got down into the teens. We were trying 5/8 inch closed cell foams pads and they were plenty warm. Unfortunately, they were also really bulky and heavier than we'd like. Going to try next time out with a thinner closed cell pad and see how they do.

Kncats,

Not all thermarests are equal, just like not all sleeping bags are equal. The ultralight self-inflating thermarests compromise insulation to reduce weight and pack volume for the same thickness, or comfort level. You have to pay attention to their capabilities and realize the limitations. What type of thermarest are you using?

Youngblood

AaronTrvlr

12-02-2004, 11:36

The Will

12-02-2004, 13:39

AaronTrvlr,

I'll try and explain the VBL and the open cell pads in as few words as possible.

As I mentioned earlier, your body is continuously putting out moisture (“sweating”, if you will) in order to maintain a degree of humidity on the skin for purposes of maintenance of that organ (the skin). This “sweating” is all very insensible in very cold weather, especially when you are still, such as at night in your sleeping bag. The result of this moisture on your skin is evaporative cooling. The Vapor Barrier Liner is a moisture barrier, but one designed to keep moisture inside rather than letting moisture from the outside get in (sounds counter-intuitive doesn’t it?) But the rationale is this: your body will put out moisture in an effort to maintain a certain level of humidity, the VBL allows you to attain and maintain this level of humidity while preventing the moisture from evaporating, you then suffer no heat loss from evaporative cooling. Once the desired level of humidity is attained, your body can discontinue moisture production.

Different people have different results with VBLs. There certainly will be more moisture inside the VBL than you are accustomed to. I combat this by wearing socks, long underwear, a hat and even gloves. But if you are extending the comfort range of your bag, I find VBLs to be heaters, they’re effective.

Considering an open cell foam pad (Therma-Rest type), if you were to inflate this pad without lying on it, just as when you get your sleeping bag out but don’t get in it, the air inside is going to be the equivalent temperature to the ambient outside air. When lying on a Therma-Rest you experience a “shadow” of warmth directly beneath your body. If your move your arms slightly or roll on your side to a different part of the Therma-Rest, it will be cold and the portion you were previously lying on will quickly cool due to its contact with the cold ground or the cold shelter floor. Air is a pretty good conductor of heat (bad thing in winter) and air is at least 50% of the filler in Therma-Rest type pads. Closed cell foam pads have relatively tiny air pockets and the foam material is a poor heat conductor (good thing) and they are preferred for winter travel. For comfort, some people (myself, in the past, included) will take both a Therma-Rest and closed cell foam pad and use them in combination—Therma-Rest on top, closed cell foam against the cold ground.

Considering stoves: During winter, I would always prefer a white gas stove. It is a matter of safety. You may need the stove as a source of heat or to quickly heat liquids in an emergency situation. Alcohol stoves are great for their weight, but they are a compromise when it comes to heat output and boiling time.

Be safe.

kncats

12-02-2004, 14:15

Youngblood

12-02-2004, 14:53

Youngblood,
I have a Thermarest Pro-lite 4. I have to blow it up, i dont think it is self inflating. I might go to walmart and get a thin pad too. What do you think?

thanks steve hiker;
maybe i should consider bringing snow shoes. But i guess that sort of thing is all luck, who knows if ide need 'em.

Aaron

The ProLite 4 is classified as self inflating, but it is not fully self inflating and you are topping it off manually. It is one of the thermarests that uses their die-cut foam to make it lighter, so it isn't really designed to get all the insulating capabitity that one could get from a 1.5" open cell foam mattress. It is designed such that comfort, weight and pack size is more important than cold weather performance.

R-value is how Thermarest mats are spec'd in terms of insulating capability. Here is what I think they currently sell in their self inflating line of backpacking pads and the numbers are likely for fully inflated mats:

1.0" ProLite 3; .......R-value = 2.3 (die cut foam)
1.5" ProLite 4; .......R-value = 3.2 (die cut foam)
1.25" Trail; ...........R-value = 4.2 (solid foam)
1.75" Expedition; ...R-value = 4.4 (die cut foam)
1.75" Basecamp; ...R-value = 5.8 (solid foam)
2.0" Luxury Camp; .R-value = 6.1 (solid foam)

I don't know how they expect you to make use of these R-value numbers, other than a higher R-value means a higher insulating value. Insulation is not just hot and cold, there is hot, warm, okay, cool and cold. I don't pretent to really know how to convert those R-values into temperatures that you will be happy with. But I can make a guess based on many hours of reading and my limited experience. I would propose a guesstimate using the following formula where the constant (k) is somewhere between 12 and 16.

Low Temp (degrees F) = 70 - k * R-Value

Using this guesstimate, you would get something like this:

ProLite 3; .....42 to 32 degrees F
ProLite 4; .....32 to 19 degrees F
Trail; ...........20 to 3 degrees F
Expedition; ...17 to 0 degrees F
BaseCamp; .....0 to -23 degrees F
Luxury Camp; -3 to -27 degrees F

Now these numbers are somewhat pulled 'out of the air', to demonstrate what R-value should lead to. So what do you do if you are using a Thermarest that isn't warm enough? You can obtain a warmer one or you can augment what you have by placing a closed cell foam pad underneath it in cold conditions. For instance, if your ProLite 4 isn't warm enough, placing a RidgeRest closed cell foam pad underneath it with its R-value of 2.6 should augment your Prolite 4's R-value of 3.2, giving you a R-value of 5.8 (3.2 + 2.6 = 5.8), which is the same R-value as the BaseCamp and should offer about the same warmth, something good to somewhere in the vicinity of 0 to -23 degrees F. At least that is the way it is suppose to work.

... or you could do like you said, just go to WalMart and get their 0.5" closed cell foam mat to place under what you have. I would guess that it has an R-value of a little over 2, so you should be in pretty good shape with that.

Youngblood

Youngblood

12-02-2004, 15:20

Youngblood,

Guess I should have been more specific. The Thermarest Ultralight's are not warm enough to use by themselves in the winter. We knew they had their limits, just trying to explore what they were while staying (relatively) light weight. Didn't work when it got down to 14 deg. Cascade Designs recommend the Expedition models for winter time use. They have an R value of about 4.4. Ensolite pads are also available as thin as 1/8 inch and are very light, but I don't know if they provide enough insulation or not when used in conjunction with a Thermarest.

I got confused who I was answering, both questions are similiar. I don't know what the R-value of Ensolite is, but I ran across a number of something like 4.34 for 1 inch of closed cell foam, the type made for insulation. I would try using that and 1/8" would be a R-value of 0.54. I think the older Ultralights had a R-value of 2.6 so my guess for that combination would be an R-value of 3.1 and my guesstimation formula would put it in the 32 to 20 degree F range. I would not put a lot of faith in my numbers, experience is obviously the best way. I was trying to show how R-values might be used and that not all Thermarests are equal in terms of their insulation. Seems like DebW had something to say about winter pads in a post a year or so back that impressed me... maybe a search through our archives would locate what she had to say based on her experience.

Youngblood

Skyline

12-02-2004, 16:43

Stoves in winter: They're bulky and heavier than the other stoves mentioned here, but the propane cannisters (Coleman is the most common brand) you can buy for a buck or so at Wal-Mart have done me well in cold weather. They also sell a twist-on stove and a slip-on base that makes it a reliable cooking apparatus.

Besides cooking--if you like to heat water to put in a Nalgene to use as a warmer overnight inside your bag, this is the most efficient and reliable way to go. I've found these to be a lot more weather-worthy than the smaller, lighter hybrid propane-butane cannisters. Outside of winter, I'm an Esbit kinda guy tho, but Esbits aren't the way to go for heating a whole liter of water for the bag-warmer or for heating the quantities of water you'd want for cooking/drinking during really cold weather. I suspect the same could be said for alcohol, tho I have no first hand experience there.

Besides keeping you toasty warm during the first few hours of sleep, another nice thing about making the bag-warmer is that you'll have unfrozen water in the morning. It won't be warm anymore, but if you keep it inside your bag it shouldn't freeze, either. Just make sure to use a real Nalgene bottle (hard lexan) with a tight-fitting lid, not the lighter weight collapsible water containers. A burst water carrier inside a bag on a night in the low double or single digits could be disastrous.

Rain Man

12-02-2004, 17:37

I'm preparing for a late December hike and saw this statement...could you please explain what trouble you had? Was it higher fuel consumption, or trouble lighting the alcohol? I had read somewhere that you just warm the fuel first and it's no trouble, but fuel consumption is higher...is that a mistake? Thanks.

Someone with more knowledge and experience may jump in to answer this, but I think you are correct on both counts.

Alcohol doesn't light as well when very cold. You are right that you can warm in up next to your body.

Also, since water will be colder in the winter, it takes more alcohol to heat it to the boiling point.
:sun
Rain Man

.

kncats

12-02-2004, 18:09

We've never had any problems lighting our Trangia in temps down to 14 deg. I usually dip a twig into the alcohol, light that and then light the stove. Our dinners (for two) usually consist of bringing two liters of water to a boil for food and tea, breakfast is one and a half liters. If the water is cold (or even frozen at times) it's going to take more BTU's to bring it to a boil. It doesn't matter if your heat source is alcohol, butane/propane, white gas or a nuclear reactor. You're going to use more fuel. We don't do much backpacking at temps lower than 15 deg so I can't speak for how the stove will work in really severe cold weather.

grandview

12-02-2004, 18:44

I'm preparing for a late December hike and saw this statement...could you please explain what trouble you had? Was it higher fuel consumption, or trouble lighting the alcohol? I had read somewhere that you just warm the fuel first and it's no trouble, but fuel consumption is higher...is that a mistake? Thanks.
speaking for just myself here, i did burn more fuel than i wanted to in the colder temps and the coke can took a little longer to "preheat" than i would have liked.

keep a couple lighters close to your body too...they can be stubborn as well.

you're right about keeping your alcohol packed in a way where it doesn't get so cold.

obviously keep a closer eye on your fuel levels if you're going to be out for multiple days in the freezing temps... in my opinion

AaronTrvlr

12-03-2004, 01:11

What do people like to use for pants, for hiking during the day?
What do you do for water purification? Do you use a filter or what?

Aaron

A-Train

12-03-2004, 01:40

What do people like to use for pants, for hiking during the day?
What do you do for water purification? Do you use a filter or what?

Aaron

I'd go with tights underneath shorts, that way you could just go shorts if you get some of those crazy 60 degree days down south. I'd bring a pair of rain pants too, so that you have an alternative if one gets wet during rain/snow. Always want one layer of dry clothes for camp. The most important gear for staying warm is a hat, gloves and warm socks for camp, because those are the areas most likely to feel the cold.

I always use aquamira, will never go back to a filter again. Its just easier and time saving and lighter, no refilling cartridges or dealing with clogging.

Remember to stay very hydrated even if your very cold. Its just as important as if it were 90 degrees, you just won't notice enough. When i started my thru-hike march 1st it was chilly and I definately wasn't drinking enough. It'll give you more energy and will keep you warm at night. Even cold water warms you up.

Oh and one last thing. Might be worth your while to carry an empty plastic jar like a jelly jar for a pee bottle. No need to worry about grossing people out since you;ll have shelters to yourself. Sure beats getting out of ur sleeping bag during the night in cold temps.

grandview

12-03-2004, 01:42

What do people like to use for pants, for hiking during the day?
What do you do for water purification? Do you use a filter or what?

Aaron
a filter will do the job where you'll be...no need for a purifier in my opinion...

i'm not really a gear elitist...whatever works...i wear bdu pants...I don't hike in polypro...I like to wait until I set up camp for the night to layer up... you won't get cool/cold until you stop walking...

grandview

12-03-2004, 01:51

i agree with the above statement...some kind of rain gear is important...stay dry

steve hiker

12-03-2004, 02:56

Your winter pack will be heavy, so carry Aquamira and save half a pound. In the winter the water will be crystal clear anyway so no need to filter out sediment, just kill the cooties.

hacksaw

12-03-2004, 09:53

I AM IMPRESSED:

Each and every post in this thread was a gem. You guys all did yourselves proud. I am elated to see that when the serious "get somebody hurt or worse" topics come up the bull crap stops and the real stuff comes out. These are well asked questions and seriously well considered responses.
It don't matter what kind of opinion I might have held prior to this, It is elevated 'way up the pole after reading the stuff in this thread.

Guys and gals, you have strengthened my faith in this site by a power of ...many many! I Am proud of you, I admire you and I praise you, one and all. And I don't even have to agree with all of you!

Hacksaw the impressed

AaronTrvlr

12-03-2004, 10:34

I agree hacksaw,
everyone has helped me so much. I am amazed by all the responses, and didn't think i would get such great help. Thanks alot everyone
I can't wait to get down there.

Thanks for the tips grandview; im never one to worry too much about purifying anyway.

Any other input on what pants to wear to hike during the day?
Shorts and long-johns sounds good to me. I usually stay warm enough in shorts in the pretty cold.
I have reain gear, all set there.
thanks for the tip A-train about the pee jar.

Aaron

Youngblood

12-03-2004, 10:49

...Any other input on what pants to wear to hike during the day?
Shorts and long-johns sounds good to me. I usually stay warm enough in shorts in the pretty cold. ...

There is no 1 right way, you get to decide for yourself what you think works best for you using the stuff you have. Stay away from cotton clothing (that can get you in real trouble in cool/cold weather) and figure out how you want to work out layers for various conditions. You might need shorts for a while, long pants for a while or even long pants with rain pants.

I usually try to save my long johns for sleep wear and try to keep them as clean and dry as possible, but if it is cold I will start out with them in the mornings until I warm up, at which time I stop and dress down, removing them and then wear long pants that have zip-off legs. I just go from there and adjust. I do see that zip-off legs add a little weight and might not be the choice for everyone, but they will also work. Its not real complicated, you will figure how you want to do it and change it up if you think something else might work better for you.

Youngblood

kncats

12-03-2004, 11:01

Just my opinion, but I doubt that any type of chemical treatment is going to do you a lot of good in the wintertime (other than provide peace of mind). The wait time for really cold water is around 4 hours. We use a filter year round for the convenience of being able to have water immediately. When it's really cold out you need to be sure you get as much water out of it as possible after using. I've never taken any more precautions with it than that and have never had any problem with it freezing up.

I've always found that a pair of long pants is enough to stay warm in while hiking in the winter, as long as I'm moving. Breaks tend to stay short though and as soon as we stop in the afternoon long johns go on. My wife is a different matter though. She keeps the long johns on well after we start hiking in the morning.

Rain Man

12-03-2004, 11:20

Remember to stay very hydrated even if your very cold. Its just as important as if it were 90 degrees, you just won't notice enough. When i started my thru-hike march 1st it was chilly and I definately wasn't drinking enough. It'll give you more energy and will keep you warm at night. Even cold water warms you up.

At the risk of doing a "me too," I want to second the suggestion to "stay hydrated."

Not drinking enough water throughout the day can cause a lot of symptoms besides just being "thirsty." It can screw up all kinds of chemical and hormonal processes that go on in the body. Many symptoms might not seem related to lack of hydration.

It can cause headaches. Feelings of weakness and fatigue (and you thought you were tired due to hiking over all those mountains, but it's really from not drinking enough! LOL It takes water, not just large muscles and power bars!). It can increase pains and soreness. Digestive system irregularities. Urinary track issues. Even problems with vision. Etc.

These are all things I've picked up as a pure layman. But the bottom line is, if you want to feel better and be healthier on your hike .... DRINK PLENTY OF WATER REGULARLY.
:sun
Rain Man

.

Alligator

12-03-2004, 11:41

I had my filter freeze up on Mt. Mitchell in early spring, and I have also had it freeze elsewhere. I use Polar Pur. In the winter, I boil about a liter of water and add that to 2 liters of cold, then add the Polar Pur. I have a cozy for my Platy that I made out of an old foam pad. This keeps the water from freezing all day. If you are using a drip line, blow the water out after drinking.

I use white gas. It's more efficient than alcohol. With all the time spent in camp, it's nice to have many hot drinks, soup, etc. I pretty much double my fuel usage in winter. A nice pint thermos is a wonderful luxury BTW. Winter is a different time of year and safety trumps weight at all times.

orangebug

12-03-2004, 11:46

Part of the pathophysiology of hypothermia is relative dehydration. Keep hydrated.

I would not be too worried about water treatment. If you filter, it will freeze and fail. If you use chemical treatment, it will take more hours than you can imagine assuming you treat with Giardia and Crypto in mind. I don't treat unless I see hoof prints and cow pies next to the water source.

statler

12-03-2004, 11:53

The wait time for really cold water is around 4 hours. We use a filter year round for the convenience of being able to have water immediately.
This is a good point, though nothing will make me go back to using a filter. A little foresight goes a long way. I have a gallon-capacity collapsible that I fill before bedtime with whatever water I think I'll need the next day. The treatment goes in then, so it can work overnight. The collapsible stays in my sleeping bag at night and inside my jacket on cold days. (BEWARE LEAKS!!) In a pinch, fresh snowfall is a low-risk water source, but I wouldn't count on it in the South. Melted snow should be warmed up a bit before drinking.

I'll be starting from Springer somewhere in late Dec or the first week of Jan. I'm not bringing real crampons, just my Yaktrax. However, my last experience in the Smokys in January made me really wish I had snowshoes along. I'm currently debating whether I want to haul the weight. Was that a freak year? Maybe bounce them to Fontana?

grizzlyadam

12-03-2004, 11:55

alcohol stoves will work just fine if you preheat the fuel. i've used mine in subzero temps with no problem.

i'll second a-train's suggestion for shorts with tights underneath. i usually hike in just shorts year round, but i'm kind of different like that.

when you get to camp- fleece pants can be toasty. they have a little weight to them, but as it has been said before, you'll be carrying more weight in the winter and that is a fact.

also in camp- down booties, down booties, down booties. they'll change your life. they're lightweight and very packable. definitely something to think about.

and, also with cooking- you might want to consider looking into a pot cozy. antigravity gear (http://www.antigravitygear.com) makes them at a pretty reasonable price. they will cut your fuel consumption almost in half.

i've done a pretty fair amount of winter backpacking so feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

steve hiker

12-03-2004, 12:15

ditto on pot cozies. keeps that food waaaarm :jump

Alligator

12-03-2004, 12:25

And an insulated mug.

The Solemates

12-03-2004, 12:53

I had my filter freeze up on Mt. Mitchell in early spring, and I have also had it freeze elsewhere.

Winter is a different time of year and safety trumps weight at all times.

Of course your filter is going to freeze up in the winter. It has water in it....
We always sleep with ours and have no problem of it freezing up during the day while hiking if its buried in our pack. Problem solved.

And concerning the winter weight issue...I do not believe you have to add a large amount of weight just because you are winter hiking. More clothing should do, which would be 5 lbs max, and often less.

Glee

12-03-2004, 13:27

also in camp- down booties, down booties, down booties. they'll change your life. they're lightweight and very packable. definitely something to think about.

The one's I've seen are close to 1 lb.... Is there something lighter out there.

smokymtnsteve

12-03-2004, 13:53

I always fill my cooking pots with h2O at night then let freeze ..so In the morning it doesn't matter if your H20 is frozen. just melt what is in the pots.

then when the water is hot you can unfreeze your filter or anything else.

also I half way fill nalgene bottles/canteens with H2o allow to freeze at night and then in the AM add the hot water melted and heated from the cooking pot,and then U have plenty of liquid h20.

IMO putting filters and water bottles that have the potenial to leak into your sleeping bag, creates a potenial saftey/comfort problem if U do get a leak.

Alligator

12-03-2004, 14:01

Of course your filter is going to freeze up in the winter. It has water in it....
We always sleep with ours and have no problem of it freezing up during the day while hiking if its buried in our pack. Problem solved.

And concerning the winter weight issue...I do not believe you have to add a large amount of weight just because you are winter hiking. More clothing should do, which would be 5 lbs max, and often less.
No **** water freezes in the winter, I was talking early spring. My filter froze up while I was pumping it, after having it buried in my pack. I never said I wasn't taking care of it. At some point, the temperature outside will reach a point at which this will happen, no matter how careful you are with it. It happened on Mt. Rogers in Dec, first night out, the filter was buried in my buddy's pack, after traveling in the warm car. But now I don't worry about it because I have a different system. Which, BTW always works AND is lighter than a filter. Polur Pur plus fuel to boil about 1.3 liters of water a day extra.

Some people would consider 5 lbs to be a large amount of weight. But those are your numbers. There are more additions besides clothing. It's common sense, warmer bag+better shelter+more fuel+additional food=more weight=better safety. This is a widely varying amount of weight, depending on destination and time of year. It is necessary to add on extra weight in the winter. Do it with a :), instead of bitching about it or worse, avoiding it.

Here's a great site for winter hiking tips. I may have posted it previously.
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml

From that site concerning water treatment:
Less Effective Methods:

Filtration- using a filtration pump system such as the PUR, First Need, or the Katadyn is not recommended in subfreezing temperatures. Keep in mind that the water in filters can freeze preventing them from working. Also, as the water freezes, it expands and may crack the filter, rendering it inoperable or even worse transmitting harmful microorganisms into your system. For these reasons, filters should be used with great caution in the winter. Be careful of inferior filters which do not strain out many organisms.
Chemical treatments (iodination or chlorination) are not recommended because they become ineffective at low temperatures. Only use these methods if the water has been preheated to about 60o Fahrenheit.
I preheat my water well above 60F (its warm to drink) and it will stay that way for several hours (well past lunch).

smokymtnsteve

12-03-2004, 14:11

MSR suggests that the best way to store your filter is freezing, I am not sure about the rest but sweetwater filters are not damaged by freezing.

Alligator

12-03-2004, 14:46

MSR suggests that the best way to store your filter is freezing, I am not sure about the rest but sweetwater filters are not damaged by freezing.I have never found a definite answer about my Pur, which has a paper filter. It would seem to me that at this point, if you could the company would say so. Otherwise, if there were doubts, they would not say anything. But if someone has a definite answer, I would appreciate it. If anyone has information about the First Need or Katadyn, feel free to post. (I know that Pur is also Katadyn now, but last look they still had some of the same models, just using the Katadyn company name now). I just about never use my filter anymore. I have a new element just waiting to be used. I used to freeze my sweetwater also (ceramic), but I lost that somewhere in GNP. Maybe the MSR is ceramic?

Storing it frozen at home is different than field use though. At home, for my sweetwater, I would pump it out before freezing, then just freeze the element. In the field, should any filter freeze as mine did, it would do so full, running a greater risk of cracking due to expansion. Plus the extra risk of being dropped in this condition--cold or numb hands, pissed off that it froze, etc. One of the original Katadyns is risky to drop year round, probably worse frozen.

AaronTrvlr

12-04-2004, 18:37

I had the idea to bring a small tarp, for emergency use.
Is this a good idea, does anyone else do this?

Thanks
AaronTrvlr

Jaybird

12-04-2004, 21:00

Hi everyone,
I'm thinking of doing a 4 week hike starting in the last few days of december.
I was wondering if anyone has done any winter hiking and could lend me some pointers, and give me some information. What should i expect? How much snow, what sort of temperatures. Might I need cramp-ons, etc.
Thanks alot,
Aaron

Aaron:

like has been said in previous posts....know the WX BEFORE you go as much as possible...ck NOAA wx radio, weather channel, weather.com, local radio & tv stations for the extended forecast.

DRESS in layers....this cant be stressed enuff.

i'd leave the crampons @ home...(my personal preference)..if you get caught in an ice storm ...i'd wait it out in a shelter or tent for a day or two.

good boots will get u thru snow & ice.

one of my things...wind resistant, water resistant gloves (thinsulate type)...they are needed for even "warm-natured" hikers like me.

good luck with your hike!

p.s. just did a day hike in the Roan Mtn area...60mph+ winds, sunny weather, but, wind Chill was hovering near 22 degrees for Dec. 1st (2004)...those gloves came in handy that day!

The Will

12-04-2004, 21:34

I had the idea to bring a small tarp, for emergency use.
Is this a good idea, does anyone else do this?

What are your intentions for sheltering? If you are suggesting bringing a tarp as your only backup option if you are unable to make it to a shelter, then I would caution against this. It is not uncommon for hikers, in their efforts to minimize weight, to not take a tent/tarp and rely solely on the AT shelters. My personal belief is that this is a poor practice, even for the experienced hiker. Weather and injury are unpredictable. While I certainly embrace the risks of solo backcountry travel even during winter in northern lattitudes, I wouldn't do it without packing everything I needed to take care of myself. Considering the time of year and length of time (wasn't it a month) you will be out, I would (if it were me) want at least a bivy to serve as a backup shelter in case I couldn't reach an AT shelter or found a beautiful alternative local to camp.

minnesotasmith

12-04-2004, 22:20

"also in camp- down booties, down booties, down booties. they'll change your life. they're lightweight and very packable. definitely something to think about."
Do you have a recommendation on brand/model/price?

statler

12-05-2004, 12:38

I had the idea to bring a small tarp, for emergency use.
Is this a good idea, does anyone else do this?
I don't think a tarp alone would cut it if you're caught out of shelter in a storm. In the past, I've used a good winter bivy, along with a piece of tyvek which can double as a ground cloth/tarp in a pinch. Waiting out a storm in a shelter, I would sometimes use the bivy in the shelter, and use the tyvek to partially close the shelter opening. Don't forget a vapor liner for your sleeping bag.

restless

12-05-2004, 18:03

For what it's worth, I'll throw in my 2cents worth. Mainly just restating what others already have. Having worked at Neels Gap I see more than a few unprepared hikers come thru. This ast spring we had a guy that had to be airlifted off Blue Mtn because of hypothermia-thats right he was wearing all cotton. Assuming you already know NOT what to do, Here are things I would recommend:
1) Bring a tent of some sort. A tent will keep you warmer typically than a shelter. Don't bring a palace-something to sleep in.
2) Take a dependable stove. Nothing worse than not being able to have a hot meal because your fuel cannister is too cold or your alcohol stove won't work. Go with a white gas stove ie Whisperlite from MSR. If you have used other stoves in the winter with success, by all means do, but if this is your first extended winter trip, go with a stove that has a good track record.
3) Extra dry clothes. Take a couple of base layers-Capilene or polypro. Also Terramar make a great poly/wool blend that serves as a great base layer and is warm. Also, I usually carry two hats, a lightweight one to hike in, and one to have dry for camp. Some have suggested a balaclava which isn't a bad idea. OR makes a nice lightweight one. Wool works as it keeps you warm when wet, and I typically carry a wool sweater and layer with a fleece or DriClime. Also, a synthtic jacket is another option.
4) Make sure your sleeping bag is rated for the temps you expect to encounter. If you hike thru the GSMNP, you could easily see sub-zero temps at night. Despite their claims, WalMart is not the best place for all your camping needs.
5)Water treatment. Forego the filter and go with some sort of chemical treatment-Polar Pur or Aquamira. The 4 hour wait times mentioned here are for worst case scenarios that you will not encounter along the AT. Those wait times are mainly for water treatment in third world countries or natural disaters.
6) Crampons. If you take any at all, take some instep crampons or Yaktrax.
7) The most important piece of gear? A positive mental attitude!!! Get used to short days and long nights. But also get ready for those winter views and quiet nights.

Good luck and enjoy the hike, but just remember all this advice is just that-advice. What works for me might not necessarily work for you. Make sure you know that your gear is in working order and will keep you warm and dry. After that just keep putting one foot in front of the other!!! :sun

AaronTrvlr

12-05-2004, 22:58

thanks guys,

had to shell out a bit more dough for all the right stuff. But i got a good bivy now.
Cant wait to get out there

thanks for all the help everyone

orangebug

12-06-2004, 07:45

minnesotasmith

12-06-2004, 08:16

I think it was an ESPN channel. It was fairly long, as commercials go. Presuming nothing was faked in the demonstrations shown, they actually looked pretty impressive. From nonflowthrough, to how small they roll up, FTs as shown in that ad genuinely appeared like a "must-buy" for serious hikers. I had been considering getting a Packa; now, it looks like a set of FTs and a sil-nylon pack cover are the way to go.

Rain Man

12-06-2004, 11:47

... it looks like a set of FTs and a sil-nylon pack cover are the way to go.

As long as you're ditching the parka, also consider ditching the pack cover. I have one, but only used it on one hike. Rained every day on me, for what info is worth. The pack cover was more trouble than it was worth to me.

I since switched to garbage disposer bags. They are tough. They are bright white (which means for me, I can finally see down into my pack). They don't billow and blow. They cover the entire contents and not just 5 out of 6 sides. They are far cheaper. And they are multi-functional.

Anyway, an idea to consider.
:sun
Rain Man

.

gravityman

12-06-2004, 12:11

I have to disagree with Restless on the water treatment strategy. The 4 hour wait time is based on whether you believe that Giardia and Crypto are risks in the water you plan to consume. Viruses are gone rapidly with bleaches (iodine, chlorine, etc) but are not a problem in US. Coliform bacteria take a bit longer, but the real wait is on the Crypto and Giardia cysts.

Very interesting. Here's a chart for crypto wait times from Pristine (canada's cl02 manufacturer)

Water quality, clarity, and temperature can vary worldwide. If cryptosporidium is suspected in the water, pre-filter with a 1 micron microbiological filter and treat as above. If a filter is not available, double or triple the dosage, allow the mixture to react, and wait the specified wait time to insure effective treatment of the suspect water. See detailed chart below.

CRYPTOSPORIDIUM TREATMENT CHART

Suspected Water Temperature of Water to be Treated
Hours required to wait prior to drinking using
Basic Dosage
Hours required to wait prior to drinking using
Double Dosage
Hours required to wait prior to drinking using
Triple Dosage

4°C (39F) 7 3 2.5
10°C (50F) 3 2 1
15°C (59F) 2 1 .5
20°C (68F) 1 .5 .25

First column is temperature of water, 2nd is hours for a single dose, 3rd is hours for a double dose, third is for a triple dose.

or go here : http://www.pristine.ca/product2.html

Gravity

minnesotasmith

12-07-2004, 04:40

Why wouldn't I want a pack cover? If it rains, I don't want everything in my pack to get soaked.

Rain Man

12-07-2004, 11:29

Why wouldn't I want a pack cover? If it rains, I don't want everything in my pack to get soaked.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. You put the garbage disposal bag inside your backpack (as a "liner"), then put all your gear inside it, then fold over the top before closing up your backpack. Keeps your stuff drier than a pack cover (in rain or dropped in a stream), IMHO.

A pack has 6 sides, just like any "box." A top, bottom, right and left sides, and a front and back. A pack cover only covers 5 sides. A garbage disposal "insert" covers all 6 sides.

Anyway... that's what I switched to after trying a "custom" expensive Gregory pack cover on my Gregory pack.

Sorry for the confusion. Still clear as mud?!
:sun
Rain Man

.

minnesotasmith

12-08-2004, 09:40

I already have established a habit for hiking where I have been putting certain gear inside my pack such as spare socks, first aid gear, food, etc. inside thin plastic bags to ensure that they do not get wet. For things of moderately large size that are nonfood that I will not need to hang from bear cables (such as clothing), the white kitchen garbage bags found in any grocery store have so far worked out for me to be a good size. If I were to use one large bag in the entire interior of a large pack, it seems that contractor bags would be the way to go. They are plenty large, and are somewhat thicker than even the better-quality leaf bags, so are quite unlikely to get torn (and subsequently leak in the next rain) while being pulled out of a pack, getting gear in and out of my pack, etc.

BTW, if I'm following you correctly, a pack cover will allow in rain between where a hiker and his pack touch, right?

Youngblood

12-08-2004, 09:56

..They don't billow and blow. ...

Billow and blow at the same time? Are you sure you are talking about pack covers and not... ahhhhh, I'm not going to say that!

Youngblood

The Gnome

12-08-2004, 17:16

I do a lot of hiking in the winter but mostly around the SNP/ Nova area. I enjoy the solitude of the trail and the lack of small hungry creatures. The downside is the greatly reduced mileage you can make due to the short days and the extra care required in walking over slippery leaf cover. It is not a problem in the PATC area, but further south I’ve found that blazing becomes very sporadic or washed out and you need to be able to see the foot tread to follow the trail. Add ten billion tons of leaf cover and the trail all but vanishes. I found myself looking anxiously at the watch many times during an afternoon.

Being caught out at night is no fun in the winter.

The combination of all the good ideas presented in this thread; special gear; extra food; extra warm clothing and the short days make 10-15 miles/day a good pace.

One extra tip: I carry a set of silk “long johns” for extra warmth at night. They weigh about 4oz and can be purchased from LL-Bean or Winter Silks. They keep me real toasty at night and help me warm up for the first mile or so in the morning.

AaronTrvlr

12-08-2004, 22:37

based on an average, how long would 33 ounces of white gas last? is it enough to get from town to town. say 3 days?

kncats

12-09-2004, 08:11

I couldn't tell you specifically how long it would last, however, my wife and I have never gone through a 22 ounce fuel bottle in three days, even in the winter. We generally boil two liters of water in the evening for dinner and hot tea and a liter and a half at breakfast for oatmeal and hot tea. That was with a Whisperlite. YMMV. Try filling your fuel canister up, weigh it, prepare and average dinner, weigh it again. Try this for a couple different meals. Be sure to use water that's about the temp you anticipate and let things cool off between trials.

AaronTrvlr

12-09-2004, 10:57

great advise knats
thanks

The Solemates

12-09-2004, 11:11

based on an average, how long would 33 ounces of white gas last? is it enough to get from town to town. say 3 days?

what?! 33 ounces will probably last one person 12 days or so, even in the winter. we only carry 22 ounces in the winter and it lasts us about a week. and we are cooking 2 meals a day for 2.

The Will

12-09-2004, 12:14

based on an average, how long would 33 ounces of white gas last? is it enough to get from town to town. say 3 days?
I'll second the SoulMates exclamation: 33 ounces of fuel!

33oz could last two weeks, possibly longer.

If you have already done some planning of your resupply points, and this figure of 3 days is representative of your time between towns than the 11oz. bottle will be more than adequate. The 22oz bottle may give you some more security and be less of a hassle in some ways because your wouldn't have to fill it as often....

Things to consider:

will you have to be melting snow for water or will boiling water be your means of purification?

will you be boiling water to fill your water bottles at night to provide warmth in your bag?

will you be taking any of those 20+ minutes-to-cook rice and beans dinners or will you be doing any baking?

All of these things take a little more fuel than "usual" stove use.

You're asking great questions and really seem to be doing your homework well.

hikerdude

12-09-2004, 12:28

Make sure you carry plenty of beer cause Alcohol won't freeze and the hard stuff will make you feel warm anyway. I didn't say drink the whole bottle now:clap

johnny quest

12-09-2004, 16:06

i recently had a chance to go to boulder colorado and of course finagled a day to go up snowshoeing. i took a 13 dollar pair of military surplus snow shoes i bought online from cheaperthandirt. they are original swiss military surplus, small, and not too heavy. they worked great all day! at that price, size and weight if i was starting out in winter i would take them and if you ended up not using them toss them in a dumpster if you want.

Footslogger

12-09-2004, 16:23

[QUOTE=
I since switched to garbage disposer bags. They are tough. They are bright white (which means for me, I can finally see down into my pack). They don't billow and blow. They cover the entire contents and not just 5 out of 6 sides. They are far cheaper. And they are multi-functional.

Anyway, an idea to consider.
:sun
Rain Man

.[/QUOTE]----------------------------------
Couldn't agree more in terms of the plastic trash compator bag. Discovered them last year on my thru-hike. Bought a bag of 5 or 6 and kept them in my bounce box. One bag got me all the way to Katahdin. We had a lot of rain last year and I never had a wet piece of clothing or gear. Sooner or later in a downpour your pack cover is gonna leak ...either through a hole or spot that isn't sealed or from behind as the rain runs down between your back and the pack. A light weight silnylon pack cover helps to shed casual drizzle and light rain but I would never hike again without a liner bag in my backpack. Another nice thing is about the liner bag is that you don't have to worry about the ground being wet/damp when you set your pack down.

Anhew ...just my experience.

'Slogger
AT 2003

lulumialu

12-16-2004, 02:18

Wow, maybe I'll see you on the trail! I'm starting a section hike from Springer to Damascus (with a stop at Mt. LeConte) on December 28th (or 27th?).

It's pretty much all I've thought about for the past month. Anyway, anyone else starting around this time?

Dahlia

wacocelt

12-16-2004, 15:35

I'm going to be starting at Springer within the next week and hiking slowly North as far as I want. Man my stomach is fluttering and my knees are wobbly just thinking about it. Mmmmm trail living /drool.

As for what you need for winter hiking... If you believe in it, it will work. In 2003 I was at the Fontana Hilton on March 29th or 30th, reports said that there was a 'dusting' of snow the previous night. From water level, the mountains looked great, so I wanted to hurry and get up there before the snow melted... HAHAHAHA. I was hiking in low price Nike Trail runners, one pair of socks, polypo pants with nylon shorts over them, and a polypro shirt. Halfway up the ascent into the Smokies I realized I was in for a tad bit more than a dusting, as there was already more than a foot of accumulation and the wind was blowing the sleet-like snow perfectly sideways. I quickly put on my gortex rain pants and jacket, as well as a fleece scarf which I used to wrap around my clothes bag for a pillow at night a fleece hat and sunglasses. The worste of it was when the snow began melting 2 days later and there was a 6 inch Pina Colada'esque layer of slush on the trail in shaded areas for the next 2 days. I'll take freezing weather hiking over thawing weather hiking anyday.

My suggestions, carry a bag specifically to put your footwear in, then keep it in the foot of your bag while you sleep to keep from having to waste fuel or start a woodfire to cook your shoes/boots every morning. Drink too much water, if you pee yellow you WILL be colder. I saw no less than 10 people end Thru Hike attempts within a 2 day period in 03'.

Hope to see some of you folks out there! Be well.

Bloodroot

12-17-2004, 07:38

Make sure you carry plenty of beer cause Alcohol won't freeze and the hard stuff will make you feel warm anyway. I didn't say drink the whole bottle now:clap
OK? Beer doesn't freeze?

On a different note, since you all are talking about waterproofing and I don't feel the need to start a thread over my question....Did anyone on their thru feel the need to reseal their tent seams during the hike? Curious of whether I need to lug the extra couple ounces?

wacocelt

12-17-2004, 14:05

Did anyone on their thru feel the need to reseal their tent seams during the hike? Curious of whether I need to lug the extra couple ounces?

I saw a few people reseal thier tents in 03' considering the insane amount of rain in 03'. Most folks just bounced thier sealant instead of packing it, whether and when you need to will be highly variable on the amount of rain and condition of your current seals. At the worst you could call home, have them mail it to you a few days ahead and then send anything thats left back home if you don't use a bounce box. Hope that helps. Be well.

MOWGLI

12-17-2004, 14:39

On a different note, since you all are talking about waterproofing and I don't feel the need to start a thread over my question....Did anyone on their thru feel the need to reseal their tent seams during the hike? Curious of whether I need to lug the extra couple ounces?

As long as you do it right the first time, you shouldn't have a problem in the same year. I've had to retouch the seams in my tent each year since my thru-hike. I actually had to treat the fly with silicon spray last week. I think the tent is on the way out, although I have clearly gotten my monies worth. FYI, its a Sierra Design Clip Flashlite.