Countering the cold in an unusual hike schedule.

[1forcamping]

Me and my girlfriend will be taking an alternative thru hike that involves us hiking from Georgia to SNP in fall and winter. We've descided we'll need new winter gear before the trip and were wondering what kind of sleeping bag would suffice for those sections of trail during winter. I've looking at temp ratings between 15F and 20F, but she's thinking we'll need 0F sleeping bags. I'd rather not lug the extra weight of a 0F if it won't be needed, but would also like not to freeze if it is.

Thanks for checking this out and for any responses.

[Wags]

i think you'll freeze your butt of in a 20 degree bag in winter. the extra weight will be minimal b/c it'll basically be almost all down :D

[1forcamping]

Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/

[The Old Fhart]

I've experienced temps of 20°F on Roan (VA) in late April. The 0°F bag will help you from becoming a statistic. :D

Primaloft insulated bags (http://sports-and-outdoors.become.com/primaloft-sleeping-bag) compress almost the same as down and are hydrophobic. I'd also use 2 pads under the bag.

[leaftye]

You're crazy if you're planning to thru hike with a synthetic zero degree bag.

[Franco]

As a suggestion I would also carefully consider the mat in use. Much better (IMHO) to get a 20F bag and a 20f mat than a 10f bag and a 32f mat..
(of course a warm hat/gloves and socks ( I use the RBH vapour barrier ones) will help too.
http://www.rbhdesigns.com/ (http://www.rbhdesigns.com/)
Franco

[everyman]

For a thru-hike starting in late March northbound, will a 20 degree bag be warm enough or do you need to get 15 degree bag?

[4eyedbuzzard]

For a thru-hike starting in late March northbound, will a 20 degree bag be warm enough or do you need to get 15 degree bag?
Sleeping bag ratings aren't standardized (except the European EN 13537 standard) so a 15 vs 20 degree rating isn't really meaningful. Most good "20 degree" bags would be okay that time of year. You might sleep a little cold a few nights a higher elevations - put on your base layer.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Me and my girlfriend will be taking an alternative thru hike that involves us hiking from Georgia to SNP in fall and winter. We've descided we'll need new winter gear before the trip and were wondering what kind of sleeping bag would suffice for those sections of trail during winter. I've looking at temp ratings between 15F and 20F, but she's thinking we'll need 0F sleeping bags. I'd rather not lug the extra weight of a 0F if it won't be needed, but would also like not to freeze if it is.

Thanks for checking this out and for any responses.

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is. ;) :D

[10-K]

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is. ;) :D

I often choose being happy over being right. :)

[Deadeye]

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is. ;) :D


As the saying goes, you can be right, or you can be happy.

[Razor]

I suggest most people ,in most years, need a zero bag in March .Depending on which winter months you may be cold some nights with that.Of course it all depends and you won't know until you are there and it will be too late to change. With that in mind always prepare for the most protection.And of course .are you prepared to hear I told you so for 1000 miles!

[SouthMark]

My grandson left Springer this year on March 1, one of the worst winters in years. Thigh deep snow in the Smokies. He had a 15º Mountain Hardwear bag. He said that he was fine. Slept most nights in undershorts only and he hates the cold.

[JAK]

i think you'll freeze your butt of in a 20 degree bag in winter. the extra weight will be minimal b/c it'll basically be almost all down :D
Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/
You're crazy if you're planning to thru hike with a synthetic zero degree bag.
As a suggestion I would also carefully consider the mat in use. Much better (IMHO) to get a 20F bag and a 20f mat than a 10f bag and a 32f mat..
(of course a warm hat/gloves and socks ( I use the RBH vapour barrier ones) will help too.
http://www.rbhdesigns.com/ (http://www.rbhdesigns.com/)
Franco
Really good discussion points here. All goods points.

For around 30F, I like synthetic because its wet around 30F and that will usually keep me warm enough in dry conditions down to 10F. However, for the same weight as a 30F synthetic I could probably get a 20F down bag, and it should still serve well in wet conditions around 30F, even if it gets a little damp now and then, because its got more down than a 30F down bag. But it will take me down to 0F in dry conditions, comfy, and even colder for survival depending on my matt and my clothing and my bivy and tarp setup.

For a smaller woman, you need a lower rated bag than me, but the same principles apply. A down bag OF THE SAME WEIGHT, will keep you warmer in cold dry conditions, and still be as safe in warmer conditions if it happens to get damp.

Most important thing is fit, especially for a smaller woman. A longer and wider bag than you need means not just more weight, but also more surface area to lose heat. A smaller person generates less heat, so they need more loft if they are expected to heat the same surface area. So the answer is to get less surface area, and shorter and narrower bag. This will save ALOT of weight for the same warmth. It will also save you money, because it might mean that you will be as warm in a 15F down bag vs a 5F down bag that is too big for you. Maybe you need 10F. Who knows? If it is sized right for you, take the 10F, even 5F or 0F, whatever you can find. The extra down doesn't add much weight, and will keep you warm. An oversized bag however, area wise, will add more weight and volume to your pack and make you colder.

If the best fit you can find is 15F or 20F, you can make up for it with a better matt system, and by wearing some clothing layers on the coldest nights. A set of long wool underwear maybe, reserved for sleeping, but also available for extra clothing if things get really nast out. On warm nights you can use them as a pillow. Make a pillowcase to keep them in.

The warmest matt system for its weigth would be 2 blue foam pads. 1 of them should be full length and extra wide. Start with a 72" and 28" wide pad. Shorten it to match your height. Narrow the width some, maybe taper it for your feet, but don't take off two much because you really need to stay on it in winter and early spring to avoid condensation. Even in later spring the ground is colder than the fall. The second blue foam matt can be shorter and narrower, but should go from shoulders to your butt. The head and neck area is important also, but usually some sort of pillow will be used. When your wool sleeping gear is being worn you can stuff something else in your pillowcase. A down hood is also something you can buy or make to make up for a well fitting but not quite warm enough sleeping bag. I like to wear a wool sweater also, which helps recover heat from any cold air getting past the neck baffle, or if I get half out of the bag to do something like make some more hot tea, or reheat the water in my hot water bottles. Wool hat and neck tube go without saying.

[JAK]

Getting a really good fit, no bigger than you need, but just girthy enough for whatever clothing you will wear on the coldest nights, that is key. A little extra room for sanity, especially if you like to pull your legs up inside now and then, or add/remove clothing while inside your sleeping bag. No longer than you need though. I think there is one company that makes their long and short sizes different than the others, so there are 4 lengths to choose from if you include them. I am not sure if womans long and short are different. if they are, there are at least 2 more lengths to choose from.

Start with the right length, regardless of gender. Then find the right girth and fit.

[Moose2001]

Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/

Even a minimal amount of effort will keep your down bag dry. Put the stuff sack it's in inside a plastic bag. It'll stay dry. You'll regret taking a synthetic bag because of the packed down size.


I suggest most people ,in most years, need a zero bag in March .Depending on which winter months you may be cold some nights with that.Of course it all depends and you won't know until you are there and it will be too late to change. With that in mind always prepare for the most protection.And of course .are you prepared to hear I told you so for 1000 miles!

I believe a "good" 20 degree bag works for a March or April start date. Your real worries are the Smokies. I've seen night time temps in the teens in mid-April. A well rated bag, a good base layer/hat, a silk bag liner and maybe a fleece if need be, will get you through. If it's colder than that, bail!

[kayak karl]

in the winter buy a longer bag so you can but your boots in the bottom to keep them from freezing. you will see single digits. i carried a zero, but you could use a 20 and 3 lbs of extra clothes.

[Kerosene]

I've seen several comments about cold weather down south in March and April, but the OP noted hiking in Fall/Winter. Certainly you can get temps below freezing, and the record temps in late December can drop below zero. However, I'm pretty sure that most SOBO thru-hikers finish by early December and are not carrying 0-degree bags.

I'd probably go with a 15- or 20-degree bag, a shortie inflatable mattress over a full-length 1/4" closed-cell foam mattress, and down sweater and down pants. You'll wear the sweater and pants around camp, and wear them to bed if the temperature really plummets.

Despite your past experience with down, or perhaps because you've had bad experiences, I'd still go with a down bag. Just double-bag it in your pack and be smart about where you place your drinking water.

Frankly, my biggest concern about extended winter hiking is moderating my body temperature while I walk, so I don't end up sweating and then freezing once I stop to rest.

[JAK]

in the winter buy a longer bag so you can but your boots in the bottom to keep them from freezing. you will see single digits. i carried a zero, but you could use a 20 and 3 lbs of extra clothes.That is a colder and heavier and more expensive solution.

If you add length, you add weight, and surface area, so you then need more loft, which is more weight again, and $$$ for the lower rating. Sure, if you have the extra length why not use it, but adding the extra length unneccessarily means you will be having to heat you boots all night. The thing is, there is still room for my leather boots in my sleeping bag without adding extra length. Also, it is better to have boots or shoes that do not absorb or hold much moisture, so there is nothing to freeze. Ok, I like leather boots, and they will freeze even if single leather, unpadded, and treated with beeswax for winter. They are light, at 16oz each, but can still take some heat to get going. Not that hard if frozen though, and plenty of room in the sleeping bag if needed, without adding extra length.

First, get the right length. There are usually 3" increments to choose from if you count different genders and different manufacturers. So, on average, you will have 1.5" extra length than when you need, 3" if you are committed to a particular maunfacturer. Don't go adding 6" to that just for a pair of boots.

[JAK]

I've seen several comments about cold weather down south in March and April, but the OP noted hiking in Fall/Winter. Certainly you can get temps below freezing, and the record temps in late December can drop below zero. However, I'm pretty sure that most SOBO thru-hikers finish by early December and are not carrying 0-degree bags.

I'd probably go with a 15- or 20-degree bag, a shortie inflatable mattress over a full-length 1/4" closed-cell foam mattress, and down sweater and down pants. You'll wear the sweater and pants around camp, and wear them to bed if the temperature really plummets.

Despite your past experience with down, or perhaps because you've had bad experiences, I'd still go with a down bag. Just double-bag it in your pack and be smart about where you place your drinking water.

Frankly, my biggest concern about extended winter hiking is moderating my body temperature while I walk, so I don't end up sweating and then freezing once I stop to rest.

I hear you. My bag is rated 0deg, and I think that is C, so its 30F rated, and I use it below 0F. It is 3.2 pounds, synthetic, so in reality I think it is 15F rated. It is a Kelty, and say 0deg, but it is certainly warmer than 30F but not as warm as 0F rated bags. I use it comfortably to 0F, and uncomfortably cold. Much uncomfortably much colder. lol

Anyhow, I second what you said, but I think you are skimping too much on the ground pad for temps in the 0F to 20F range, with a 20F bag. It is true that snow only gets so cold, but air can still get underneath. And there may not always be snow, and hard frozen ground can take alot to heat up before it starts to insulate, so cold hard 20F ground can be worse than 0F air above you. In early winter down low you can avoid cold hard frozen ground, but my mid to late winter and early spring you can still find ground that cold in some places. Maybe not in southern AT, except higher elevations. I don't know. Dryer ground is not so bed. Solid rock and wet frozen ground can be really cold though.

I would suggest at least a 3/8" thick foam pad for your full length pad.
For the second pad, a shorter 3/8" thick pad will add more warmth and be ligher in weight than a self-inflating pad. With 2 pads, 1.5" total, you should be comfortable enough. A self-inflator might save you some pack volume, or you might be bringing it anyway for warmer months. Not sure. Just saying, for 0F to 20F, two thicknesses of CCF is warmest for its weight, and comfort shouldn't be an issue once you go that thick. As I see it, self-inflators are really only for comfort, and to save volume, and not needed for winter. For winter 1.5" of CCF is warmer and lighter and just as comfy.

7-10oz for your main pad, 24-28" wide, 66-72" long, 3/8" thick.
4-6oz for your 2nd pad, 20-24" wide, 44-48" long, 3/8" thick.
So, 11oz to 16oz, depending on how tall you are, and how much your move. You can taper the pad for your feet, but I move around too much. Sometimes I pull a bag over the bottom to tie my feet in and add a little extra warmth. You could taper some then, but its still nice to leave a little for the wrap effect. It's not completely wasted. You can also use the material from there if you have to make insoles or something like that. I haven't tapered mine yet, but I might.

I would agree also that I would be more concerned about clothing. Bring enough clothing. You should have enough so that even it it does get damp or wet from sweat or rain or snow, you will be warm enough to dry it out. When you are cold your skin is on average only 80F, and colder in the arms and legs. When you are heated up enough, but still not sweating, it can be 95F, even in the extremities. So you want enough extra so that you will be warm enough to dry it out, even when it is damp. If it gets wet, you should take it off and wring it out. If it gets frozen, you can beat the ice crytals out of it in the air or against a tree. But if it is just damp, you should be able to heat that dampness out. A mix of wool and polyester layers works best for this, especially if you take your wind shell off, and just put if back on when you stop. I will hike with the wind shell and rain shells on while moving if it is reall that cold for my layers, and just slow down a little. That will conserve more energy than taking shells off and hiking faster. If you do still start getting damp, then you take the wind/rain shells off and hike a little faster to heat them up and dry them out, but you shouldn't hike so hard as to sweat, not when conserving energy and heat. I will sweat in winter alot, skiing, hiking whatever, without worry, but only on nice days during the day when I know I will be able to get dried back out again. You just don't want to wait until sundown to do it, or until you are exhausted. Then it is too late.

You get a feel for it. You feel your way into it. Learn as you go. Just don't skimp too much on clothing layers while doing it. Also good to bring a thermometer, so you know more exactly what temperature it was when it worked, or when it didn't. It also helps if you grew up some place going to school and playing in the snow and staying outside even on storm days, especially on storm days. Kids don't do that up here anymore, even on nice days.

This winter I think I will have to teach my daughter to always have her winter clothing ready. This is the winter to do it, while she is still young enough and light enough to throw over a snow bank. She has to learn that cotton hoodies and skinny ass jeans and no ankle socks just don't cut it. :)

[1forcamping]

The big problems I had with down stuff I tried is that it didn't take much dampness for it to all but stop working, and on my last outing we had another torrential rain that penetrated even the most waterproof materials we had. I wouldn't want to get caught in a storm like that with down.

At the moment, I'm thinking a Ultralamina 15f bag with a set of fleece base layers and a good quality pad. But with that in mind, if anyone knows how I could fix the moisture problems or seriously sees that set up as pootentially dangerous, I'm all ears.

I'd rather be wrong than cold.

[1forcamping]

I often choose being happy over being right. :)
Oh, trust me. That's not a problem. I'd just rather not lug a 0F synthetic bag if I can get away with a 15. :)

[10-K]

But with that in mind, if anyone knows how I could fix the moisture problems or seriously sees that set up as pootentially dangerous, I'm all ears.

I'd rather be wrong than cold.

Mont Bell sells a goretex bivy that I got to use with my MB superstretch down bag.

I had the great misfortune of being packed like a sardine in a shelter during a rain/sleet storm with a steady drip right over my bag all night.

Goretex bivy saved the day. My bag stayed completely dry. I'm sure it would work with most any bag.

[1forcamping]

That definitely sounds like an option. Thanks for the input.

[Nean]

Bring a dog...;)

[mississippi_dan]

I think a 15 degree bag is adequate. Be sure you have a good mat. You will likely camp on ice/snow or in one of the shelters. I've done Standing Indian to NOC in January. I was a little cool at Carter Gap shelter because the floor is elevated, and it was about 5-10 degrees that night. I used a 15 degree bag with an Insul air mat. I did fine the rest of the trip.

Dan

[Moose2001]

[QUOTE=1forcamping;1053552] on my last outing we had another torrential rain that penetrated even the most waterproof materials we had. I wouldn't want to get caught in a storm like that with down.QUOTE]

That's an interesting comment. If you're not keeping your sleeping bag dry, you've got bigger problems than trying to figure out which type of bag you want. Keeping down dry is a simple task. Several people have told you how in the previous posts. Down or synthetic is your choice. You have to carry and use whatever you select. However, you need to look at the way you're carrying your bag and make sure it stays dry. Spending a night in a wet syntheic bag will be a cold and miserable night.

[1forcamping]

[QUOTE=Moose2001;1053704
That's an interesting comment. If you're not keeping your sleeping bag dry, you've got bigger problems than trying to figure out which type of bag you want. Keeping down dry is a simple task. Several people have told you how in the previous posts. Down or synthetic is your choice. You have to carry and use whatever you select. However, you need to look at the way you're carrying your bag and make sure it stays dry. Spending a night in a wet syntheic bag will be a cold and miserable night.[/QUOTE]

My problem isn't keeping the bag dry in my pack, it's finding a shelter tha can hold up to torrential rain. If I could find sucha shelter, down would probably be the most practical.

[1forcamping]

Thanks for all the replies, I'm definitely concidering many of the options given here.
I don't really know what to expect on this hike, so the help is very much appreciated.

[leaftye]

My problem isn't keeping the bag dry in my pack, it's finding a shelter tha can hold up to torrential rain. If I could find sucha shelter, down would probably be the most practical.

I bet a cuben fiber Lightheart 1P tent would do the trick.

[The Solemates]

you need a down bag, and it needs to be 0 deg.

we do quite a bit of winter hiking in the south. it gets down to below 0 degrees F on many occasions. factor in the windchill, and we've had many nights around -10F or below.

know what you are getting yourself into. take several weekend winter trips on particularly cold nights before you set off on your hike.

[Lyle]

Well, NEED is a pretty definitive statement. I've hiked southern Virginia during a blizzard with temps well below zero. I had a very used synthetic bag which was originally very liberally rated to 15*. I survived, and many others have as well.

That said, today I would carry at least a good quality, conservatively rated, 15* bag for a fall/winter AT hike in the south. Want to assure a comfy night 98% of the time, a zero rated, high quality bag doesn't weigh that much more. Does cost though.

Making do with a lesser quality bag?

Pads are paramount. As others have stated, two pads are great.

Head insulation is necessary.
Extra clothes can help, but make sure not to go overboard and compress your bag from the inside.

I use a silk liner year round in my good bags, keeps them cleaner and adds a bit of warmth (not the 9* most claim).

Hot water bottles can help a lot on the occasional extreme night, but I do not like the idea of taking water into my bag, so generally avoid it.

Eat high energy food just before bed and during the night if you get chilled.

Stay hydrated, force yourself to drink in cold weather, more than you feel like drinking. It's important.

If you are convinced to go with Down (best option) just make sure to take every opportunity to dry it out. Hang if for a couple hours in camp on clear, sunny, or breezy days. Take it out and place in the sun at lunch, when the opportunity presents in town, run it through a dryer cycle. The biggest detriment to good loft is the nightly addition of sweat/breath you put into the bag and, in some cases, tent condensation. This is an incremental damping. Counter that accumulation whenever possible. Keeping it dry from rain is easy.

One trick for keeping boots thawed and water liquid - just before bed, heat water, fill bottles Nalgene work well), place a wool sock over the bottle, and place inside boot. In AM, water is still liquid and boot is not frozen.

My biggest comfort factor once all the basics are taken care of, Down Booties!!!! These are great inside your bag to keep your feet toastie on the coldest nights. Usually have to remove them at some point during the night. Don't use them, and you will take hours for cold feet to warm up. At least I do.

Improvisation can and does work, but good planning and great gear will keep you more comfortable.

Good Luck, and HAVE FUN!!!!

[Lyle]

My problem isn't keeping the bag dry in my pack, it's finding a shelter tha can hold up to torrential rain. If I could find sucha shelter, down would probably be the most practical.

Well, what shelter are you using, or considering using? Which one failed you? Did you get wet for leakage, water flowing underneath, or condensation? Maybe that's were you should start trying to figure out a better solution.

Granted, some torrential rains can be a challenge, but they aren't THAT common and shouldn't dictate you gear selection that you have to live with every day.

Plan to have gear to be reasonably comfortable in the conditions EXPECTED, and survivable in the conditions reasonably POSSIBLE. That has worked for me for 30+ years of serious backpacking.

[The Solemates]

Making do with a lesser quality bag?

Pads are paramount. As others have stated, two pads are great.



that works for some people. i'm a one pad kinda guy even in the coldest conditions, and just use a better bag to compensate.

the bottom line is to know your gear, your comforts, and your limitations before you attempt a long distance hike.

[1forcamping]

Well, what shelter are you using, or considering using? Which one failed you? Did you get wet for leakage, water flowing underneath, or condensation? Maybe that's were you should start trying to figure out a better solution.

Granted, some torrential rains can be a challenge, but they aren't THAT common and shouldn't dictate you gear selection that you have to live with every day.

Plan to have gear to be reasonably comfortable in the conditions EXPECTED, and survivable in the conditions reasonably POSSIBLE. That has worked for me for 30+ years of serious backpacking.

I've tried a couple types of shelters. I'm leaning toward my hammock and a rain fly right now. It wasn't able to stand up to the storm I was talking about, but it stood up just as well as my tent, and didn't have the condensation issues on the warmer nights.

As far as expected conditions, the area where I'll be ending the hike has had blizzards with 36"+ snowfalls for the past several years running. So although I'm not planning on needing severe weather protection for most of the hike, I know that at some point it will probably be nessicary.

And to put some minds at ease, this won't be the first time I've camped out in extreme cold. This will just be one of my frist longterm stays in winter conditions, and I know that small discomforts that were pretty easy to shrug off during my weekend trips, can really wreck a good attitude over long periods of time.

Thanks for all the help by the way.
I think I'm pretty much sold on the 0 deg down bag with a good mat.

Now to add to the questions, I have a good quality down fill coat that I'm planning to use for a camp coat. Does anyone have any tips for keeping it dry during rain or snow, or should I go for a coat with Primaloft?

I was thinking of just putting a rain coat on over it, but that would just compress the insulatioin. Not to mention make me sweat like a pig.

Thanks again for the info.

[buz]

Regarding your rain coat over down coat question, that combo is my go to skiing set up. Down coat, goretex rain coat over it. Any rain coat will work, if it is cold and windy, you will want the wind break affect of the rain coat. Size of rain coat is important, but as long as it doesn't totally smash the down, you will get plenty of insulation from the two layers trapping air anyway. If you get hot, open up, if you are hot and it is rainy, take the down off, or get out of the rain. Plus, the down coat will keep you a lot warmer in your bag, I just drape it over my torso in the bag if needed.

good luck,

[northernstorm]

Nothing kills someones trip more than sheer and brutal cold. Take a 10 degree bag. It still gets cold in the south during winter. I mean damn cold. You will be out there for most of the winter and spring. Reward yourself with warmth and comfort at the end of each day with a 10 degree bag. It still drops down to the teens in winter and spring all the way through Virginia.

[northernstorm]

Oh! Almost forgot to mention that you can buy a compression sack for your sleeping bag. Since you said you will be taking synthetic sleeping gear, they tend to be extremely bulky. Invest the 11 bucks on a compression sack for your bag, it will shrink it's size to that of a watermelon. Great thing to have for synthetic bags. Down packs real nice, but it seems as though you don't like the down.
I think any decent outfitter should have them or just order them off of camphor, I know they have them.

[northernstorm]

*campmor* not camphor, hahaha!

[1forcamping]

Regarding your rain coat over down coat question, that combo is my go to skiing set up. Down coat, goretex rain coat over it. Any rain coat will work, if it is cold and windy, you will want the wind break affect of the rain coat. Size of rain coat is important, but as long as it doesn't totally smash the down, you will get plenty of insulation from the two layers trapping air anyway. If you get hot, open up, if you are hot and it is rainy, take the down off, or get out of the rain. Plus, the down coat will keep you a lot warmer in your bag, I just drape it over my torso in the bag if needed.

good luck,


Nothing kills someones trip more than sheer and brutal cold. Take a 10 degree bag. It still gets cold in the south during winter. I mean damn cold. You will be out there for most of the winter and spring. Reward yourself with warmth and comfort at the end of each day with a 10 degree bag. It still drops down to the teens in winter and spring all the way through Virginia.


Oh! Almost forgot to mention that you can buy a compression sack for your sleeping bag. Since you said you will be taking synthetic sleeping gear, they tend to be extremely bulky. Invest the 11 bucks on a compression sack for your bag, it will shrink it's size to that of a watermelon. Great thing to have for synthetic bags. Down packs real nice, but it seems as though you don't like the down.
I think any decent outfitter should have them or just order them off of camphor, I know they have them.

Well, I've been convinced. I'm going to stick with my down coat, and I've just ordered a 15 degree down bag from REI. I found some stuff called "Down Proof" from Nikwik that I'm going to try.

I think with the information everyone here has given me I shouldn't have much trouble staying warm and dry.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

[Lyle]

I've tried a couple types of shelters. I'm leaning toward my hammock and a rain fly right now. It wasn't able to stand up to the storm I was talking about, but it stood up just as well as my tent, and didn't have the condensation issues on the warmer nights.



You'll definitely need two pads, two wide pads, in a hammock for winter conditions. Most folks who plan to regularly hang during winter will invest in a good underquilt. I know I would. It's still good to carry at least one pad though, just in case you have to go to ground or shelter on occasion. If you decide to hang, check out Hammock Forums.

http://www.hammockforums.net/

[Treefingers]

i live near SNP, go for a 0 degree bag and i assure you you will be happy you did. Logged near a 1000 winter miles and never once was too warm and appreciated it when there were cold rains in november in SNP and southern VA and early december. its your call ultimately but having a 20 degree bag at its temperature limit isn't that fun

enjoy your hike
treefingers
GAMe '06
west bound in 2011 for PCT

[johnnybgood]

Don't be caught wishing you had brought a warmer bag but instead your freezing your arse off.:eek:
If you're hammocking then go with a quality underquilt and bottom insulating pad.