View Full Version : Baselayer? Running tights? What?
Joker4ink
09-25-2010, 00:58
I am looking for a good set of baselayer pants for this winter, but I wanted to find out about what people thought of using running tights? I'm not sure what would be best. Feel free to recommend base layer shirts too. -Steve
MedicineMan
09-25-2010, 02:51
I've even used Pearl Izumi tights...but when its cold a lot of us like wool....Ibex, Smartwool, etc. Last weekend I experimented with silk for the first time. Silk saved me 4 ounces over wool (head to toe for each). I could tell silk is not as warm but does dry a bit faster than wool. So for late spring/summer/fall silk is a good thing. When it gets colder I'm sticking with Smartwool.
I'use used Smartwool tights for years now and I will say that what my 80 year old mother told me is true, wool is a strong fiber and lasts a long time.
The motivator way back then to switch to wool was the funk factor I'd get with synthetics; wool just does not stick like vomit after even 5 days of constant wear.
The only down with wool is the sticker shock you'll get when you price it but sales occur frequently-just keep an eye out.
I used Patagonia Capilene baselayers (http://www.patagonia.com/us/patagonia.go?assetid=10148) on last years thru- (#1 and 3 weights) and really enjoyed them.
I use my running tights. I have several pairs, from lighter to a little heavier and what i use depends on how cold it is. They work fine for me--I use them both for walk, with a pair of shorts over them, and for sleeping in. I find them to be a little more flexible and comfortable than even capilene, although I have a set of Patagonia as well. The Patagonias are just fine, this is just my personal preference.
I am not familiar with the weights of the Capilene stuff. I know its really just another high quality polyester, but I need to convert it into ounces for comparison to other polyester skin layers and midlayers.
•CapileneŽ 1 Silkweight is the silkiest and can be worn alone or as a baselayer
•CapileneŽ 2 Lightweight is a great weight for aerobic use in mild to cool conditions
•CapileneŽ 3 Midweight is a versatile, do it all baselayer for active use in cool to cold conditions
•CapileneŽ 4 Expedition Weight is our warmest Capilene fabric
So what do these weigh in ounces for a set of long bottoms or tops?
This is the data from patagonia, the first weight is per square yard, I'm guessing. The second and third are for womens size and mens size, but not sure what size. Medium or Large i imagine. I tried changing the sizes but they still quote the same weight.
•CapileneŽ 1 "3.7oz" , W bottoms = 4.5oz , M bottoms = 5.5oz
•CapileneŽ 2 "4.0oz" , W bottoms = 4.8oz , M bottoms = 5.7oz
•CapileneŽ 3 "5.4oz" , W bottoms = 6.1oz , M bottoms = 6.6oz
•CapileneŽ 4 "5.9oz" , W bottoms = 6.5oz , M bottoms = 7.1oz
Note that the Womens 3 vs 4, were quoted the other way, so I switched them.
What material are they really? Again from their site:
•CapileneŽ 1 3.7oz 100% Polyester (100% recycled)
•CapileneŽ 2 4.0oz 100% Polyester (54% recycled)
•CapileneŽ 3 5.4oz Polartec Powerdry 100% polyester (65% recycled)
•CapileneŽ 4 5.9oz Polartec Powerdry 94% polyester (52% recycled)/6% spandex
Note that recycled fibre isn't quite as good, but is better for the environment. The recycled stuff doesn't drip or squeeze quite as dry as the 100% new stuff. It's probably still excellent stuff. Capiline is just another quality polyester though. For the lightest skin layer, it probably doesn't mater that it is 100% recycled. Might even work better when that thin next to the skin.
In summary, Capilene is just another fancy name for polyester.
What I bring in winter for my legs are two layers, both polyester. A loose baggy 200wt polyester fleece, worn either with or without the skin layer. As skin layer, something light, either my silk which weight 4oz, or my polyester, of which I have a 5oz and a 6oz set. If it might get really cold, like colder that 0degF, I also bring a set of long wool underwear, which stay in my sleep bag, but if I bring them out they will fit nicely over my skin layer and under my 200wt fleece pants. They weigh 16oz, but are top and bottom both, so equivalent to about 7oz for the bottom half. In winter I am usually in the skin layer bottoms, hiking shorts, and wool sweater top. I add layers from there as needed. I use my skin layer bottoms alot more than my skin layer top. I cut off the legs of one pair of 200wt fleece pants. They make good shorts in winter also. Nice layer over skin weight bottoms. Sometimes more comfortable than hiking shorts.
What activity, under what conditions, is the baselayer for?
The patagonia Merino stuff looks really good.
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/patagonia-mens-merino-wool-4-hoody?p=37542-0-984
Wicked overpriced though. For $200 I can get a nice old lady to hand-knit me something much better, and for $5-$20 I can get something at a thrift store that is almost as good.
Same with the polyester stuff. You should not pay over $20 for any skin layer. For mid layers $20 should get some good 200wt pants, and $20 for light or medium wool sweater.
For a hand-knit sweater, you can go medium or heavy, and then I would pay $100 +. So I say save your money for the nice old ladies. Use a British type wool for a medium that is really good in most conditions, even rain. Heavy wool sweates are easier to knit so they should actually be more affordable, though usually heavier than you need. Light wool sweaters would take a long time to knit, and so easy to find machine made ones in thrift stores for $20 or less. So if I go hand-knit it is for medium or heavy. There are hand-made ones using knitting machines also, which are just as good, and sometimes more affordable. especially in lighter weights. If you can't afford a hand-knit wool sweater, buy a pair of hand-knit wool mitts. British type wool. For a neck tube and peruvian type hat, alpaca stuff hand-made from Peru etc is very good, but don't get anything lined with fleece. That stuff is junk. Get the real deal or have something knit or knit it yourself. Start with a neck tube. They are easy.
Where were we? Oh yeah. Legs.
I don't wear much wool on my legs except for socks and my long johns. I have been experimenting with wool tweed pants from a thrift store. They are very comfy and fashionable, and functionally equivalent to the 200wt fleece pants. They need a belt, so you have to work that in to your kit. Also, they are often lined up near the top and pockets. You can cut some of it out. You should probably avoid wool pants that have too much cotton up around the waist and pockets, unless you can cut it out. Mine have some, and I left it in, and it hasn't been a problem yet but it hasn't gotten wet. Very comfy. Might shorten and narroe the legs, like hiking breeches.
Suspenders would work well with the pants also, or with the 200wt fleece pants.
Here's an idea for lightweight suspenders. If you have an old fleece top laying about, like 100wt or 200wt, or even a polyester shirt or something like that, you could maybe cut some suspenders out of them so that you will have something which is really form fitting. Or you could just make a set out of ribbon or something like that. I was thinking also that there might be a way of bottoning a skinlayer top to your fleece or wool pants or your hiking shorts. I don't always have my skin layer top on though. The only time I really need suspenders is when I have alot of leg layers on at once, and they get wet. That's when suspenders are really great. It's nice to keep the waist nice and loose. Especially with a backpack, because you already have the waistbelt of the backpack. It's not always in the right place to keep your pants up though, so suspenders are best. A belt can be uncomfortable and redundant with a pack.
Jak, trying to describe the weights of the Patagonia baselayer system is difficult to do. Most good outfitters will have a Patagonia display and that's where you can see and feel the fabric difference. I can tell you the #4's are heavy while the #1's are thin!
BTW, polyester fabrics are naturally hydrophobic making them better at expelling and evaporating water than say nylon. That's why they're so fast drying.
I get that. I just wondered how they compared to weights of other folks.
For skin layers I would go with their 1,2, or 3, depending on the climate, and the weight of all my other layers. It is nice to have at least 2 different weight of skin layers at home to choose from, to make up or make down after you picked all your other layers. I usually decide on which skin layer last. I only ever bring one. I don't really count my long wool underwear as a skin layer. They are a little looser, and more of a winter extra.
I don't see much use for the Capiline #4 for a skin layer. I would tend to go for a lighter skin layer. like 1,2,3 and make up the extra in some other layer. I can see situations when you want to move in shorts and a single leg layer, but if your skin layer is too light, you can take them off and wear your mid-layer, which might be 100wt or 200wt fleece. I think 100wt pants are 8oz and 200wt fleece pants are 10-11 oz depending on the size and how baggy the style. Sometimes it is nice to have a single heavy leg layer that fits a little snugger. I can see that. I like my 100wt to be a little looser than my 200wt. Sometimes I do bring the 100wt as a skin layer, which I guess is even more extreme than the #4 as a lightest layer, so I guess everything has its place.
So I bring:
1 skin layer: 3oz silk. 4,5,6oz poly, or 8oz snug 100wt
1 mid layer: 8oz loose 100wt, 10oz baggy 200wt, or 12-14oz thrift store wool tweed.
My wool pants are heavier than that, but I'm not through with them yet. They are not heavy windproof wool, but that's not what I'm going for with them. They are more like 200wt fleece. They do become more windproof as they ice up a bit.
Outer layer is always a conundrum for pants. Should you bring a wind or rain layer, or put that extra weight into the fleece or wool mid-layer? I like breathable quickdry nylon for hiking shorts, even in winter. Sometimes it is tempting to go for pants instead, but most of the time I hate pants even in winter, except when really needed, and I don't like the feel or weight of the convertible zipper. I don't mind a cuff zipper. A really packable wind shell would be idea, or even a rain shell, as long as it was light and packable. I know they are out there, just not as easy to find and I don't like to mail order.
I think what I will do is bring just the hiking shorts and 200wt fleece and skin layer on winter hikes when I won't get away with the wool pants most of the time. When it is cold enough for the wool tweed most of the time I will bring them instead of the hiking shorts and 200wt fleece. I am going to shorten and narrow and cuff the legs, rather like old cross-country ski pants, or hiking breeches. Also, long wool underwear as an extra.
Still at a loss for rain/wind shell. I have two. Waterproof rainpants, 8oz, not as light or packable as they should be. Also brushed nylon hiking pants, 10oz, somewhat more breathable than the rain pants but not as easy to pack or take on take off. Both kinda suck. Maybe a simple rain skirt and leave them both home. Something I could pull down to midcalf, or up to the knees. Easy to take off and pack away. Double as a quick ground sheet.
I do think wool pants might make a comeback, for hiking and skiing. Not the heavy recycled wool hunting pants like at LLBean. Too heavy. Something lighter, like tweed dress pants, but without cotton for waist and pockets. Also, a better pant leg for hiking and skiing. I think they only went out of style because polyester fleece and skin layer stuff can be made so much cheaper, and still sold for just as much. I can get tweed wool pants at thrift stores for under $10. Just takes a little hunting and gathering. It's not like when you are in the woods everything that is exactly what you need will just drop in front of you, so it doesn't bother me so much anymore that stores are no different. It's really better this way. People might come around eventually, or not. When they do I will switch to something else. lol
Mountain Wildman
09-25-2010, 11:56
I have the Capilene 3 Bottom and Top, And a Capilene 2. They are all nice Baselayers and the Tops look good as an outer layer as well.
I also just ordered a pair of Mountain Hardwear Power Stretch Tights from Sierra Trading Post for $26.00. I like the fact that they are reversible for inner or outer wear.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,2027H_Mountain-Hardwear-Polartec-Power-Stretch-Base-Layer-Tights-For-Men.html
Sierra Trading has good deals but you have to watch for specials.
Today the Tights are $41.95 but tomorrow they will probably be on sale again, They seem to change their deals daily.
I think alot of people and clothing lines go overboard on the stretchy thing. Might look great, even feel great, but isn't really functional for staying warm at minimum wieght.
You need just enough stretch to pull on and to cling a little, but it should not really be stretched at all anywhere while you are actually wearing it. This applies to skin layers as well as mid layers. There should be just enough room for the layer underneath, plus some air layering. The air layering doesn't have to be thick or thin, just what you would get naturally with the layers draping. You don't want to compress it, that's for sure.
Outer and mid-layers and even skin layers can be oversized some, and still be effective. Outer layers and mid-layer will work just well without skin-layers also. The skin-layers do not need to be worn every day. They can be reserved for the colder days if the mid layers are more comfortable and the skin layers easier to pack.
A little spandex doesn't hurt, but for most mid-layers and skin-layers it shouldn't really be neccessary. I like a little in bottoms, but not for tops. Skin layers should not really be stretched skin tight though. They should be skin-snug. There should be a thin skin layer underneath them, and they should be allowed to loft up a little, just like mid-layers.
Enough with the stretchy clothing trends. Layer up for winter. Wear it loose.
Joker4ink
09-26-2010, 18:37
What activity, under what conditions, is the baselayer for?
It will mainly be for hiking in New England in the winter. I typically use REI mid-weight baselayers under a thin pair of convertible paints and a Marmot softshell (sometimes with a North Face fleece in between). Maybe I should be looking to buy a set of soft shell pants instead. Thoughts?
I sleep in patagonia cap 4.
But for hiking in cool or cold weather, I really really recommend running tights. I use under armour frosty tights--tho I think they go under a different name now.
I think that it is more comfortable hiking with a little muscle compression, they are very warm, I don't feel the wind. In March & April when it was raining constantly and cold I wore them under rainpants and was very comfortable.
Only downside is they are not very 'rugged' when it comes to abrasion, but for pants I would rather hike in running tights than a baselayer.