View Full Version : Are expensive down sleeping bags worth it?
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
My dad who grew up with very modest means always quoted, "Son, you will never regret buying the very best". I saved and saved and got a WM. It hurt like hell when I bought it. After I used it for the first time, I have never regretted it.
couscous
09-28-2010, 19:30
You might appreciate this podcast on Western Mountaineering (http://www.practicalbackpacking.com/audio/pbpodcast/PBP-28_Western-Mountaineering.mp3).
My dad who grew up with very modest means always quoted, "Son, you will never regret buying the very best". I saved and saved and got a WM. It hurt like hell when I bought it. After I used it for the first time, I have never regretted it.
Yes--exactly.
I saved and saved and saved for my mb ss 0. First down bag. I am IN LOVE. It takes a little more consideration and care but it is sooo worth it. If you get one, I would suggest one that has a water resistant fabric shell. They're worthless (and heavy!) if they're wet.
It's like a really good hug.
Wise Old Owl
09-28-2010, 20:00
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
Make sure if you add a few pounds it will still fit, keep in mind its your lay down size not your height and if you take care it will last forever.:D
My first expensive bag was a Western Mountaineering 0 degree goretex antelope... back in 1991 it was $350 bucks! I used an loved this bag until I began to prepare for the PCT. I quickly realized a 4lb zero degree bag was way overkill for the trail. I went back to Mel Cottons in San Jose and bought a Western Mountaineering Ultralight 20 degree. At 1lb 9 ounces this bag has been 5600 miles with me over the past two years. The zipper still works perfectly. After washing it twice (after each thru hike) it still retains all it's loft. Amazingly this bag never seems to stink. I just set it in the sunlight most mornings on the trail to dry dew/condensation and the stink is gone.. HaHa or at least i can't smell it!
4eyedbuzzard
09-28-2010, 20:08
I really would like a WM SummerLite (a "32 deg" bag according to WM), but it's $315 smackers. I still have my older NF Blue Kazoo which is a 15 - 20 deg bag, but weighs 2 lbs 12 oz.
Two years ago I was looking for an lightweight bag for summer use, something in the 35 to 45 deg range. I shopped around and wound up with a Sierra Designs "Wicked Light", 45 deg bag for just under $100 at Sierra Trading Post (list price $200 or so). At 1lb 6 oz it isn't quite as light as a 1 lb WM HighLite or 1 lb 4oz SummerLite, but it sure was easier on the budget for a light warm weather bag.
I think you can get pretty darn good (and perfectably servicable), but not the absolute best, at a good price. Some will not be happy with anything but the best, but the reality of money sometimes has to be considered. $5000 dollars worth of gear won't get you any further down the trail than $500 spent wisely.
If there's one place I wouldn't compromise though it's boots / shoes and socks. Buy the best fitting and performing you can. Your feet will thank you for it.
Walkie Talkie
09-28-2010, 20:16
They really are just down in a nylon shell. So are you buying down and nylon or a name. Educate yourself spend wisely. Those companies make great gear. There are others that use the same ingredients though.
If I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I would definitely skimp or dirtbag or DIY on items like backpack, shelter, sleeping pad, clothing, and footwear. One place I would definitely splurge a little would be on a decent sleeping bag. Not saying the sleeping bag can't be dirtbagged or skimped or DIYed, just that it is easier to do it in other areas.
Shelter - perhaps the easiest to skimp or dirtbag or DIY.
Sleeping Pad - blue foam pad is pretty much a no brainer for going cheap.
Backpack - Good DIY possibilites, or $100 for a Jam2, if that is skimping.
Clothing - Lots of skimp and dirtbag options. Mostly just buy less.
Footwear - $40 trail runners or sneakers, good dirtbagging, IF THEY FIT.
So that leaves the sleeping bag.
For alot of the stuff above, less $$$ often means less wieght and volume. For example a $300 pack generally weighs more, not less than a $100 pack. Same is generally true for shelters, sleeping pads, and alot of clothing and footwear. The sleeping bag is the one place you can generally reduce weight and volume by going to a higher quality product, over $100. You might save up to a pound, for example, by spending $300 vs $100. You might save some volume also. It is easy to make up a pound in alot of other areas without spending an extra $200, and quite often by spending less, rather than more. The sleeping bag though, is the one place I might still have spent $300 on, whereas everywhere else I would spend less.
I'm not sure about over $300 though. Depends on temperature rating. For a summer bag, too easy to dirtbag or DIY, so under $100, unless adventure racing. For Spring/Fall, down to 20F, under $200, but perhaps $300 for a 2000mile thru-hike. For Winter, down to 0F or -20F, try to keep it under $300, unless going on an expedition of some kind, up a mountain or labrador or whatever, then you spend the big bucks. But for kicking around the woods around here I can lug an extra pound or two, or three, for the 3-4 days I might be out. It's a nice way to simulate the extra weight of more provisions and gear for a longer or more serious expedition.
I can't see spending an extra $200 or $300 on a sleeping bag, just so I can afford the additional weight of spending an extra $200 or $300 on a tent and self-inflating sleeping pad and stuff like that. Quite the opposite. The weight and money I save doing without those items allows me to save even more money and weight using my old synthetic bag. If I was to go on a serious trip though, I would probably get a new bag for sure, but continue to skimp and dirtbag and DIY in all the other areas. Except for summer. For summer it is still to easy to DIY a decent solution for a sleeping bag, or quilt.
So generally speaking, no, not worth it,
but a better place to spend extra money on compared to other items.
I don't regret buying my WM bag, I regret missing out on a -20 that would have been more my size (I thought I needed to buy big and wound up too big) than the 0 I got.
Then I even bought my 7 yo daughter a purple one when she wouldn't let go of mine!
It's more than just down and nylon. Construction methods, type of shell material, baffle design, features such as half zip / full zip, hood design and quality of construction, etc... all are important.
I bought my son a REI model on sale, it was relatively cheap, but it leaks down like a sieve. We even seam sealed the worst seams! Shoddy construction. My Feathered Friends Swallow is light, warm and rarely looses a down cluster.
My suggestion, do the research before you spend that kind of money.
Lone Wolf
09-28-2010, 20:46
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
i have a 20 deg., $120 down bag from Campmor. $400 plus is ridiculous
Go for the high quality. I bought a 25* WM in '06 and used it for the entire trip on the AT. Never got cold, even in mid-teens. Washed it afterwards (it stank really bad). Used it at snow school last year in the Sierra and on the PCT this year (to Sonora Pass, where I got injured and had to get off). Even through the Sierra in a near-record snow year and sleeping on snow a couple of nights, I stayed warm. I also used a cheap closed cell foam pad, a NeoAir, a UL silk liner, and every piece of clothing I had.
I bought a down bag from Stepenson's Warmlite in the 1980s. It had a down filled air mat and two removable tops. There was also a radiant vapor barrier built into the tops. It was too warm for most of my trips so I replaced it with a down bag system from Feathered Friends - the Great Auk outer bag and the Rock Wren inner bag. I bought them in the early 1990s and used them until around 2003. Desiring to save weight on my warm weather bags I bought a closeout Golite bag that I began to use by wrapping it around my hammock, becoming both an over-and-under bag. A couple of years ago I bought a Montbell down liner bag which I use in very warm weather or to boost the warmth of my Golite in cold conditions. So far I've taken the pair of bags into temps down to 5 degrees F. wrapped around my hammock in a fully enclosed hammock tent with a hot water bottle and down and wool clothing.
The Golite bag weighs 1.5 lbs. The Montbell is one pound even (with a full zip).
Just a note on waterproof fabrics: they will trap your perspiration and need to be aired out (inside out to allow your perspiration to escape because it can't get through the waterproof outer fabric without the help of your body's warmth).
I use a tent or tarp. If I wanted a waterproof bag I would use a separate bivy which could be cleaned when necessary (you don't want to be washing your down bag any more than you absolutely have to).
The waterproof coatings (or a bivy, for that matter) limit the comfort range of your bag - another reason not to get a fancy outer shell.
garlic08
09-28-2010, 21:43
i have a 20 deg., $120 down bag from Campmor. $400 plus is ridiculous
That was my first down bag too, a good deal. But then I upgraded when I saw a Marmot Helium on sale for half price ($180) on steepandcheap.com. At that price, it was worth it. No way would I have spent full price though. I hope the Helium lasts the rest of my life.
I just used my brother's down liner from the 70's for a section hike in Minnesota. It was a Christmas present. He has taken very good care of it and and it is still very good although I was a little chilly one night. Taking care of gear makes good gear last a long time.
skinewmexico
09-28-2010, 22:30
My WM Megalite has better constuction, lofts up better, and packs smaller than my Marmot or North Face Hightail. If you've got the money, why not buy a bag that will last 20 years? Great bags, and made in the USA.
Moose2001
09-28-2010, 23:02
The best part about buying a Western Mountaineering bag is you actually get what you pay for. You paid for a 20 degree bag and that's what you get. You don't have to worry about the bag being rated incorrectly. You don't have to worry about the bag coming apart on you. You don't have to worry about not having quality customer service. If having all of that is worth it to you, then spend the money and get the best.
Danielsen
09-28-2010, 23:03
My Golite Ultra 20 down quilt arrived today, and I don't regret purchasing it one bit. So much incredibly lighter and more compressible than my old 20 degree synthetic bag... and warmer, to boot. That synth bag never lived up to its rating.
Then again, I am very glad that I snagged it on sale for $150. At it's list price of almost $300, would it be worth it? I just don't know... we'll see, I suppose.
I do agree with JAK that of all the things to spend money on, a good bag is probably the smartest choice. I've got a walmart foam pad, blue tarp (being replaced with an UL homemade tarp soon), pack also from walmart (shockingly comfy and well-made for $30) and I use 88c emergency ponchos as rain gear; sometimes I feel like I should make dirtbag my official middle name (females may misinterpret, sadly). But a good bag is something I'll spend money on.
if you do the majority of your camping in florida i'd say no... there are plenty of +40 synthetic bags, under 2 lbs, that will be good for all but the coldest of days in florida.
Rocketman
09-29-2010, 07:20
For a long time, my best bag was a Mammut Anjulaak bag from Steep And Cheap good to about 40*F. Weighed a little less than 1 bl 8 OZ.
Last year, I found nearly $500 of my old bank funds in the "Abandoned Money" files in California. I vowed to spend it on a really good sleeping bag.
With careful shopping, I managed to get a brand new WM Summerlite from a dealer for about $268 shipped.
My needs for quality were met, as well as my needs to have a "good deal"..
It will last me for the rest of my hiking life, assuming good care.
daddytwosticks
09-29-2010, 07:26
If you buy a WM bag, it will be your LAST bag. I own a Caribou and Alpinlite and will never part with them. :)
If you buy a WM bag, it will be your LAST bag.
The same can be said for a Feathered Friends bag. Both brands are top quality.
fiddlehead
09-29-2010, 08:08
I put my money in my sleeping bag.
I have 2 feathered friends bags and actually need to get another one. Yes, i sort of wore one out.
My 20deg Hummingbird has now been slept in over 1,000 nights.
The down is very very low.
The most important thing IMO is the fit.
This bag fits me like a glove.
My other FF bag is a 0deg one that my wife has now taken over. It is too big for me (and her but she doesn't understand yet)
The other thing i would like to say is that i would NOT get the waterproof outside layer.
This tends to hold your sweat in and the bag gets heavier over time.
The lightest weight nylon that they (FF) uses it what i always get.
it dries faster from your moisture and i have a good tent (sil shelter) so, don't ever worry about it getting wet from rain.
My 2 cents: Go for the good bag and get everything else cheap.
4eyedbuzzard
09-29-2010, 08:15
If you buy a WM bag, it will be your LAST bag. I own a Caribou and Alpinlite and will never part with them. :)
The same can be said for a Feathered Friends bag. Both brands are top quality.
True. But I have an old brown Campmor down bag from the 1970's that still is usable, and a NF bag from the 90's that is also still kicking. Neither were "the best" even back then, though the NF was pretty darn good. Both are heavy by today's standards. I think it more depends upon how much discretionary money someone has to part with for a certain level of performance/quality - and how much they use it. For a thru-hiker or for someone who spends months in their bag every year, a top end bag likely is a good purchase as when considered against the total activity cost as it can be justified. But for someone who use it 2 to 3 weeks per year, it likely isn't. With the weight reduction and quality comes an high increase in cost - WM and FF and other bags are often 2 to 3 times the cost of similarly performing bags from "lesser" manufacturers, and the weight reduction is measured only in a few ounces. With that also comes the caveat that more exotic lightweight shell materials often require extra care so as not to damage them. While we're probably nearing some limits on weights regarding shell materials and fill power, it isn't inconceivable that there will be further advances in bag technology that could make today's best bags heavy by comparison to WM's or FF's offerings in 10, 15, or 20 years (we just don't know what super synthetic fills may be engineered in the near future). There's nothing wrong with buying "good enough", and likely most of our purchases in life go by this principle - homes, cars, appliances, education, food, and even hiking gear. Money is always an object.
Tipi Walter
09-29-2010, 08:47
When I started living outdoors in 1980, I knew the real ticket to outdoor freedom in the winter mountains of NC was the best down bag I could get. My little town had a backpacking store(Footsloggers)and carried the North Face line, so the first bag I got was a polarguard Big Foot bag by North Face, rated 5F. I paid $65 for it in '77.
But in severe conditions such a bag is child's play, and I knew the one item I would need to see me thru the worst of all mountain weather would be a top of the line goose down bag. In '81 when I had $320 scrapped together, I went back to Footsloggers and got the best bag NF had, the Ibex rated at -10F. Sure, they had one bag better, called The North Face(this was when NF was known for making the highest quality gear, especially bags), but it was more than I could afford. The Ibex became my ticket to living out thru 20 winters and so, a good bag is the most important piece of gear for the serious "bag nighter".
In the late 1980's a backpacking buddy of mine got a new Marmot down bag at around $400 and we all marveled and wondered and were envious, but none of us had that much money. I stayed with my Ibex and used it everywhere. Finally, sometime in the mid to late 1990's the bag started to stop working, and I noticed it at first on zero degree nights when cowboy camping out in the open. I had to throw an old Army feather bag over the Ibex in order to stay warm. But heck, the Ibex lasted almost a good 20 years before replacement.
In 2000 I upgraded with a 0F rated Marmot Couloir, and it become my new best friend. Meanwhile, North Face bags seemed to have lost their high quality over the years and when my GF got a NF Blue Igloo 32F bag in 2004 she stayed cold all night at around 35F. Underfilled? Yup. We returned it to Campmor and got her a poly Marmot Maverick woman's model at 0F.
My Marmot was used heavily between 2000 and 2008 and eventually I found it to "stop" working for me at around -5F, a number I encountered regularly in the high mountains in Jan and Feb. A Marmot zero bag over-rated? Most bags are over-rated. I still use my Marmot bag, it has become my 3 season bag and is used up and into October for my mountain trips.
Over the years I have drooled over WM bags, like everyone else, and finally in 2008 I bit the bullet and got their Puma bag, rated at -15F. Wow. Here's the thing: a good bag will last a backpacker at least a decade of HARD USE, meaning almost daily use, and it is one piece of gear that quickly reveals its quality and warmth during trips where there is "no place to hide", meaning nights at -10F or worse. And in the long run, you actually save money by going with the best right out of the gate, as you won't nickle and dime yourself with an inferior 20F bag or even a 0F bag out there and find them inadequate. If you're serious about staying out on the coldest nights, get the best.
Just a note on waterproof fabrics: they will trap your perspiration and need to be aired out (inside out to allow your perspiration to escape because it can't get through the waterproof outer fabric without the help of your body's warmth).
I use a tent or tarp. If I wanted a waterproof bag I would use a separate bivy which could be cleaned when necessary (you don't want to be washing your down bag any more than you absolutely have to).
The waterproof coatings (or a bivy, for that matter) limit the comfort range of your bag - another reason not to get a fancy outer shell.
The other thing i would like to say is that i would NOT get the waterproof outside layer.
This tends to hold your sweat in and the bag gets heavier over time.
The lightest weight nylon that they (FF) uses it what i always get.
it dries faster from your moisture and i have a good tent (sil shelter) so, don't ever worry about it getting wet from rain.
My 2 cents: Go for the good bag and get everything else cheap.
i would like to point out something. in both of your attempts to be helpful, you are missing one key ingredient. there is a huge difference between waterproof and water resistant. i do not know of a high end company that makes bags wtih waterproof shells. that would indeed be detrimental to the bag.
however... many companies make a water resistant shell, such as the mb bag that i have that has been treated with polkatex, a water resistant dwr coating.
that being said, there is an occurrence when fabric gets wet, usually referred to as "wetting out". when a fabric becomes saturated with water on the outer layer, it pretty much negates the breathability of the fabric underneath. therefore, having a water resistant coating on your bag actually aids in moisture transfer away from your body.
just an fyi.
Tipi Walter
09-29-2010, 08:53
i would like to point out something. in both of your attempts to be helpful, you are missing one key ingredient. there is a huge difference between waterproof and water resistant. i do not know of a high end company that makes bags wtih waterproof shells. that would indeed be detrimental to the bag.
however... many companies make a water resistant shell, such as the mb bag that i have that has been treated with polkatex, a water resistant dwr coating.
that being said, there is an occurrence when fabric gets wet, usually referred to as "wetting out". when a fabric becomes saturated with water on the outer layer, it pretty much negates the breathability of the fabric underneath. therefore, having a water resistant coating on your bag actually aids in moisture transfer away from your body.
just an fyi.
One of the reasons I was so "enamored" with the WM bags is their use of Microfiber shells. And I also have a deep winter down parka that uses eVent, and find it fantastic, so maybe a Feathered Friends bag with eVent would be the best of all worlds? Don't need it since I already have the WM, but just wondering . . . . . . .
Blissful
09-29-2010, 09:09
Love my Montbell down hugger which I got on sale under $200. I spent good money on a lightweight tent so my bag isn't soaked and I can sleep at night. That and my thermarest neoair. And decent shoes, or I don't go anywhere.
skinewmexico
09-29-2010, 09:51
The same can be said for a Feathered Friends bag. Both brands are top quality.
BPL tested bags a while back, and I think the FF bag was their favorite. Of course, I got the idea that they just assumed everyone knew where WM placed. Either would be sweet.
In the name of complete disclosure, I must admit I found an amazing deal on my Megalite (same price as a Montbell), or I wouldn't own it. If I need another bag though, I might pay retail for a WM. It would be the first time in my life.
Sassafras Lass
09-29-2010, 10:56
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
I think it's absolutely worth it, for many reasons. I'm not one of those people who believe that expensive = best. But you most often have to pay for quality.
My biggest reason for buying a WM or FF bag? You're supporting an American company that uses an American workforce and American materials. I'd rather do that any day, hands down, than give more of my money to keep Communist China's economy higher than our floundering USA economy.
Now I'm going to contradict myself here and say that I didn't uphold my ideals and bought a Chinese-made GoLite Venture 20 sleeping bag - 800 down fill, 33 oz. It's a great bag and furthermore I got for around $170 incl. shipping - couldn't possibly pass that up, especially since we're buying gear by the skin of our teeth. But if I had the funds I would gladly drop $400 on a well-made, American-made product.
FWIW, I bought a Feathered Friends Hummingbird that for $330 in 1997.
After who knows how many nights on long trails and just my 'off-trail' use all over New England and the West (Utah, Wyo, CO) that is pretty high, I finally retired it after my CDT thru-hike.
It was worth EVERY penny.
In Nov 2006, I bought a Golite Adrenalin 20 at the local warehouse sale for $170. . It is light, warm and 880 fill. Can't complain about that.
It was worth the money..but NOT the full retail price of $300+. The stitching is fraying, the fabric catches in the zipper and just was not made with the attention to detail of the Feathered Friends bag.
So...are expensive bags worth the money? Couldn't tell you. I don't think the above GoLite bag at full retail would be worth the money.
I CAN tell you that the expensive Feathered Friends bag was worth every penny for the use I put on it. I doubt my Golite bag would last under that kind of hard use. Based on reports from friends I trust, and knowing what I know about the company, the Western Mountaineering bags are worth the money as well.
Put the hard use on it? Go for that the WM or FF bag. Moderate use as most of us (Doubt I'll put 10k+ miles on a bag again anytime soon..sigh)...then a more moderate priced bag may be more than adequate (if not a lifetime bag).
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
I was lucky enough to find two Western Mountaineering bags for sale right here on WB. Because they run a little narrow, two different people were selling them for about half what a new one costs. I used my 20 degree bag for my entire hike this year (over 6 months) and was never sorry. When it was cold, I was warm enough, and when it was warm, I used it like a blanket that I could kick off.
bulldog49
09-29-2010, 11:29
i'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a feathered friends or western mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the ff hummingbird nano or the wm alpinlite or ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...
yes yes yes!
if you do the majority of your camping in florida i'd say no... there are plenty of +40 synthetic bags, under 2 lbs, that will be good for all but the coldest of days in florida.
I don't do any camping here but when I do I just use a polyester blanket I have that zips up into a rectangular sleeping bag.
My biggest reason for buying a WM or FF bag? You're supporting an American company that uses an American workforce and American materials. I'd rather do that any day, hands down, than give more of my money to keep Communist China's economy higher than our floundering USA economy.
Thats definitely a good reason to buy one. Most of my gear is made in the US except my Lekis and head lamp I think. You can hardly call China a communist country anymore.
The same can be said for a Feathered Friends bag. Both brands are top quality.
FF bags tend to be a bit heavier for their ratings. They aren't as optimistic on the temperature ratings (I should say may be overly conservative), and they use materials that are a bit heavier (because they're more durable).
They're tough as nails for a very light, warm bag. Don't pass them by for an ounce or two.
Anyone know the difference between the WM Ultralite and the WM Ultralite Super? Travelcountry.com has the Ultralite Super and I would like to order from them because they're right up the road from me but I don't want to order it if its inferior to the Ultralite. It is a few ounces lighter but thats all I know. I E-mailed them and they said its a 2008 model.
http://www.travelcountry.com/shop/western-mountaineering/3-season-bags/western-mountaineering-ultralite-super-sleeping-bag-20-deg.html
I have a WM Alpinlite, MB #0 & #2, a FF quilt, & a couple of JRB Nest & ORM quilts. I'm a fan of quality over cheaper
Something I am not that sure about is the best shell material. Probably depends on whether or not you use a bivy. Inside a tent I think it still matters, but inside a bivy bag perhaps not so much. Inside a bivy you really just need to contain the down, for minimum wieght, except on the inside there still might be some ventilation and convection through the inner shell as you move around, ot even just lay there with some air space. Inside a tent I think the outside shell needs to be a little more airtight, but still needs to breath some. Not sure how this trade-off works, or what the best material is. It doesn't have to be super heavy, but I think some of the really light shells allow too much air to pass through the inside and outside shells through convection and ventilation. The shells underneath you probably don't matter so much, but neither does the fill underneath you, as long as your ground pad is well insulated.
I don't think an expensive bag matters so much as getting the right fit and putting the right system together, including all the components like ground pad, clothing or liners used, shelter, and alot of those components can be done light and cheap, or expensive and heavy. Depending on how well the whole system is put together, 600 fill or synthethic vs 900 fill down, and nylon vs something with a fancy name, might not make all that much difference. 18oz of 600 fill is as warm as 12oz of 900 fill, and in some cases it might actually be warmer.
So if you find a great fit and a the right warmth in a 600 fill bag, at a great price, I would not fuss much over the fact that it might have been 5 or 6 or lighter. Where it might really matter more is in a winter bag, but even then, 10 or 12 oz difference, perhaps 15-18oz difference in a midwinter bag. A pound matters alot when you are trudging in snow, but there are alot of other ways to save a pound here or there, and the extra mass can be useful in a bag, especially in winter, though I think wool underwear is a better way to add a little thermal mass. Fit and features are probably more important than saving some ounces on fill quality.
Shell material matters also, but I would be careful about getting an expensive lightweight bag that 'breathes' too much. If you can roll it or stuff it down to easily, without having to give it some time for the air to flow out, the shell material is perhaps too breathable. I think this can be a problem with some expensive summer-weight bags. Maybe they assume you will use a bivy and liner, but if that is the case they should include that statement with the bags rating. Alot of these ratings are still rather sketchy. It is not just a matter of measuring loft either, or ounces of fill x fill power. How well the head and neck area are insulated makes a huge difference. What are the assumptions there, especially with the summerweight bags? Do you need a hood? How can they even rate a bag without a hood, unless they assume you will bring your own of some kind? How heavy of a hood do they assume? As thick as the bag, or thicker, or thinner?
More important than buying an expensive bag is understanding what you are buying.
Do most people with down bags use a bivy with a tarp? Or is a tarp enough?
Wise Old Owl
10-02-2010, 19:45
Do most people with down bags use a bivy with a tarp? Or is a tarp enough?
I tried doing it with a bivy alone and one cannout do one without the other, enjoy the weight savings and go as light as possible.
So you use a tarp alone?
I can't stand bivys. I got trapped inside one before. I got stuck in a sleeping bag before too...
Well a bivy can be just a bag cover. That's what I use. It does have a flap that goes around the hood too, and closes up, but it can be left fairly open. I use it with a 72"x28" blue foam pad and a standard sized rain poncho/tarp. In winter I usually don't pitch the tarp and just bivy under a big Spruce tree, unless its freezing rain or something and go the other extreme and pitch the tarp like a really small pup tent over just the head end. Other variations in between. Spring/Fall usually a lean-to either lengthwise or sideways. In summer I leave the blue foam pad and the bivy and the sleeping bag home and go with two wool blankets and the poncho/tarp or some such thing.
My sleeping bag is synthetic, but I still always bring the gortex bivy when I bring it. It weighs about 3.2 pounds and is good for Spring and Fall but sketchy for midwinter. Fine for 80% of the time, but 19% gets uncomfortable and 1% would be deadly if I was way out there. A good 3 pound down bag of the same weight would be alot better for winter, and just as safe as the 3 pound synthetic in the wet stuff. I think the trouble with down bags is when you skimp on everything, ground pad, shelter, clothes, temperature rating, and then go for the lightest bad possible without much regard for how airtight the shell material is, or how well it insulates your head neck area, and how much insulation you will have from the ground, and stuff like that. Getting wet isn't the only thing that can go wrong. Sometimes people just aren't prepared for how cold it can really get.
People should be prepared to get wet though. You avoid it, but wet happens. That's why I like wool and fleece clothing. You get wet, even totally soaked like fall into a frozen lake soaked, and you squeeze it out and shake it off and beat the ice out of it. Down clothing isn't much backup to a down bag. If your down bag gets wet, and you have down clothing, its probably wet to, and then your totally screwed. I don't understand hikers that hike like staying dry is an absolute neccessity. That's like paddlers that say they haven't flipped in over 10 years or whatever. I grew up sailing and we made it a point to practive capsizing just about every time we went out. Wet happens. It's not enough to be prepared for it. You have to practice it.
If your not totally soaked every now and then your not just lucky, your unprepared.
Danielsen
10-02-2010, 22:08
I'm pretty comfortable in bivvys but I just made a sleeping bag cover with a space blanket for the bottom and a Driducks Poncho (propore: highly breathable and waterproof, and also quite cheap) for the top, no-sew project with duct tape seams. Using it just feels like another layer to my down quilt, rather than a claustrophobic bivvy.
SassyWindsor
10-02-2010, 23:05
If you're just starting out buy a good used or good bag on sale. Don't spend the big bucks on one UNTIL you have a lot of experience, especially how to care for one, and KNOW that you'll be using one frequently. Then, go buy yourself a WM down bag or equal and know you'll have the best. I have both a WM down and a NF Cats Meow synthetic fill bag. I started out with the less expensive NF and recently added the WM down to my gear. I'm glad I did.
IMO, you don't have to drop a load on a high fill "quality" down bag. Heck a 600 fill bag feels very nice and comfy and can be had for cheaper. Just make sure it works for you, fits you and you take care of it. Of course, I am not saying don't drop the $$$ on a nice high fill down bag... A few months back I dropped some $$$ on a new Marmot Helium. I love it. It is so comfy and inviting. Way better than my synthetic bag I used. It does not say WM or FF on the side, but the quality is great, and I am very happy with it. However, I must warm you... chances are very good that once you start buying, you won't want to stop. I will have one of those bags that says WM on the side, and FF, and even some quilts with Nunatak...
http://stick13.wordpress.com/gear/my-current-gear/sleeping-bags/marmot-helium/
I'm consider spending four hundred bucks or more on a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering sleeping bag. Either the FF Hummingbird Nano or the WM Alpinlite or Ultralight, can't decide. Anyone have experience with these bags? Are they worth the money? I've never owned a down bag...Only you can successfully answer this. I don't have a bag from either of these manufacturers but from what I understand their reputations for quality are sterling. Ask yourself: Do I have the money for it to spend? Do I plan to do a lot of cold weather camping/backpacking? If the answer to these questions are yes, then I would say do it. When it comes to being able to sleep well outside in bad conditions I would say it will be money well spent. And there are other quality down bags besides these brands where you may be able to still get high quality/durability for slightely less:-? .
SunnyWalker
10-07-2010, 20:32
Yes. Lighter, smaller when packed, lighter, comfy, lighter, lasts, lighter, warm, lighter, works every night, lighter, lighter, lighter. If you're like the rest of us, you'll want your pack to be as light as possible. -Chaplain
I am with most here, HQ down bags are the way to go, worth the investment. Mentioned a little, but IMO, highly important is fit. Before you buy, get somewhere and try bags that you know the exact dimensions on. Write them down, and then look at your brand choices to compare sizing. Makes comparing much easier. For instance, I am slim, 6' 170# guy with not big shoulders, and the WM line of slim bags doesn't work for me, and I don't quite understand why, but they don't fit right, in the knee zone. And I am not a big guy. Any way, fit is very important to get right before investing. But if you are really going to use the bag a lot in the future, buy a winner. Also, the reselling of the bag, if needed for one reason or another, is way better with a high end one.
good luck
I bought the WM Ultralite 6'6". I'm a couple inches taller than you are and probably skinnier. I hope this bag works out. If not, I guess I can always send it back. I actually have that same problem with sleeping bags around the knee area. I can always use it as a quilt in summer and just deal with the claustrophobia during the cold months.
i have the WM Versalite...i dont know how i lived without it! i wouldnt trade it for anything! maddog
skinewmexico
10-12-2010, 13:45
A high quality sleeping bag is the poor man's yacht.
middle to middle
10-13-2010, 15:03
Once you shiver through a night you will enjoy paying for quality.
BTW, I just got my WM Ultralite and I don't find it too cramped at all. I have the 6'6" and I'm about 6' 3" and kinda skinny.
Majortrauma
10-14-2010, 19:16
No question about it. Buy down, it's well worth it!!!