View Full Version : Vapor Barrier Shirts?
I've been looking at some of the one's at Warmlite... I was wondering if anyone here has tried one and what are your thoughts about them. I'm doing some winter hiking and just don't feel like freezing my tail off.
orangebug
12-03-2004, 14:18
In what conditions would you consider wearing it?
I've been in blizzard conditions in the GSMNP and freezing rain elsewhere. The only VBL gear I'd consider are socks and gloves. Socks are very easy to do, but gloves may not be necessary if you have windproof/waterproof shells. You can always supplement gloves with an extra pair of socks. If it is too cold for the fleece and capilenes that you normally wear while hiking, you might be smarter to take a zero day in your sleeping bag at the shelter.
I always found that walking was enough to keep my core body pretty toasty and sometimes sweaty. I'd spend the money and the weight on good hat and balacava, to cover the spots where most heat escapes.
I'm finishing my thru hike after having to get off in October.. I have Harpers Ferry to Mt Killington, VT @ 670 miles. So, I won't be able to take days off. I have been reading so much on what to do and wear that it gets to the point of too much info. So, I'm trying to work on just a few things at a time. I plan on using seal skin socks and VBL as well. I will wear a then liner sock 1st, then the seal skin, a wool hiking sock and then a VBL bootie to keep it dry. Not sure what I'm going to wear yet for boots. I have my Montrails which were fine for 1,500 miles, but once wet take forever to dry. I'm looking at getting something to put on the bottom of the shoes or boots to keep from slipping all over the place. I have seen the Yatrack and they look the lightest and easy to put on.
orangebug
12-03-2004, 16:09
I think you are dealing with belts and suspenders in a way that won't work for your socks. I understand Seal Skins over the liners will be VBLs, and that the extra liner over the wool sock will be repetitive and redundant.
You might see if you can get some info on IceBound's preparations. He started his NOBO in October, and is probably in Central VA as we speak. He has some mountaineering experience, knows that the NE mountains can be deadly, and has plans to survive his adventure.
It makes sense for you to consider having VBL clothing available as an emergency measure, but I'd expect that socks and gloves will be the most valuable to you. Good luck on your walk, especially if you are planning it for this winter. I imagine that instep crampons and snowshoes are in your future.
Hal Weiss, in SECRETS OF WARMTH, says that vapor barriers are the most efficient and safest way to dress in cold weather. I think he’s right, but only at temps below 20 or so. The colder the temp, the more effective the VB.
VB shirts work only when they’re used properly, which they usually aren’t. You’ve got to save them for true cold, and you have to make adjustments (just as in the standard layering system) as you go along. Use them right, in appropriate conditions, or don’t using them at all.
A VB is a base layer (you can wear the lightest possible layer beneath for comfort, but it is not necessary). With one, you will feel the results of overheating much more quickly than you do with the standard layering system, and you can deal with it immediately, by opening the warm layers above (if any) , then unzipping the VB and flushing the dampness and extra heat away, rather than allowing dampness to creep slowly into your base and insulating layers. A functional VB top must unzip or unbutton. Pullovers like modified garbage bags won’t work on the move.
As long as you pay attention to what’s happening, and adjust often (which you should be doing anyway). This is much more effective than relying on the “wicking” of wetted-out traditional layers. By alternately venting and closing down the system, you can stay warm, comfortable—and dry. Whatever unvented sweat you do produce will be blocked by the VB from entering your warm layers. They remain dry and functional. Because no insulation gets damp, you don’t have to carry backups, and you don’t have to worry about trying to dry stuff out overnight in a freezing tent.
Remember, though, use a VB shirt right or don’t use one at all.
If we have another winter in the Northeast like we have had for the last two winters (cold and snowy), I would be prepared for 670 miles of hiking, postholing, and/or snowshoeing.
I skipped around hiking in January and February last winter all over the midatlantic on the AT (Maryland, PA, NJ, and New York). I was met with the same results everytime. Lots of snow on the trail. In Maryland it was not really a problem as most of the trail was broken and hiking was pretty easy. However, many sections of Jersey were 12-18 inches deep with no broken trail. In fact, the section from NJ 23 - Pochuck shelter on a map looks to be one of the easiest sections on the entire AT. Last February, my hiking partner and I broke snow for 14 miles one day. All that I can say is that it was by far the hardest day I have ever physically experienced. We got wooped!!
What is my point? Don't underestimate how hard it is to break unbroken trail in 10-12 inches of snow and only the unpredictable northeast weather for this winter will be able to tell you what gear will absolutely be required. I would not rule out snowshoes and instep crampons can only be of help if their is snow/ice. You will figure it all out. Make sure to bring a book and/or a radio for those long shelter nights. Have a blast and be safe.
Hal Weiss, in SECRETS OF WARMTH, says that vapor barriers are the most efficient and safest way to dress in cold weather. I think he’s right, but only at temps below 20 or so. The colder the temp, the more effective the VB.
Just curious, if that would apply to using it in a sleeping bag as well? I’ve been trying a VBL without clothes on and with silk type tops and bottoms, in my 20 degree bag in my hammock. The temps where I’m located have been around 25 to 35 degrees. I wake up with the tops & bottoms wet or in a pool of water inside the VBL.
Remember, though, use a VB shirt right or don’t use one at all.The only Vapor Barrier shirt I have seen is at Warmlite. Do you know of any other that you might recommend or do you think they have the best out there?
[QUOTE=orangebug]I think you are dealing with belts and suspenders in a way that won't work for your socks. I understand Seal Skins over the liners will be VBLs, and that the extra liner over the wool sock will be repetitive and redundant.
QUOTE]
I left out that I would only use the extra VBL Bootie to keep the sock dry if it is raining. I had a pair of Seal Skin Gloves and my hands sweated so much that they became useless in the rain. Plus it took them forever to dry out. I plan on using a surgical type of glove, or rubber gloves for washing dish's on my hands as a VBL, a wool mitt and a waterproof shell.
What is my point? Don't underestimate how hard it is to break unbroken trail in 10-12 inches of snow and only the unpredictable northeast weather for this winter will be able to tell you what gear will absolutely be required. I would not rule out snowshoes and instep crampons can only be of help if their is snow/ice. You will figure it all out. Make sure to bring a book and/or a radio for those long shelter nights. Have a blast and be safe.
Thanks for the info. I'm from California and have little experience with heavy snow and have never used snowshoes or instep crampons. I take it I would just need one or the other? I also would hope that there is some light weight and inexpensive pair out there as well...
orangebug
12-03-2004, 21:33
I left out that I would only use the extra VBL Bootie to keep the sock dry if it is raining. I had a pair of Seal Skin Gloves and my hands sweated so much that they became useless in the rain. Plus it took them forever to dry out. I plan on using a surgical type of glove, or rubber gloves for washing dish's on my hands as a VBL, a wool mitt and a waterproof shell.
Tried that in March 2001. Did not work. I still got significant frost bite and kept numb thumb, forefinger and middle fingers for about 2 months - even with medium fleece gloves and liners. Get either windproof/waterproof poly gloves or a combination of shell, thick mittens and glove liners. If you use poles, your hands will lead the way and will get exposure.
Don't pee on the electric fence.
Glee:
With regard to a VB in your sleeping bag. Just like the VB shirt: gotta use it right. That means in REAL cold -- 20 or below. And vent if you get too hot (which you may not at appropriate temps). Unzip, flap the top of your bag a couple of times, snuggle back in.
The only purpose-built VB shirts I know of right now are from Stephenson Warmlite, and theirs are very good, light, and have a comfortable inner surface. But any inexpensive coated rainjacket is a VB too. Check Campmor.
The advice you asked for is coming with a bunch of unsolicited advice.
A good thermometer is essential. I use a zipper pull thermometer that is not all that accurate but better than nothing.
You need to establish a cut off temperature where you either hike to someplace warm or build a snow shelter. Snow is actually warm. Here in Colorado it too cold to snow lower than about 10 degrees. A snow shelter is warm unless it is icy.
Keeping your head, feet and hands warm is much more difficult than keeping your torso warm.
A combination that works on the head is an OR Windstopper balaclava combined with a REI Squall hat and sometimes you need to add goggles so no skin is exposed. On my feet I like a synthetic liner sock, then a produce bag from the grocery, then a Smartwool sock. A pair of waterproof shell mitts that cover the forearms is necessary to make a snow shelter.
My experience is in dry cold and for my own metabolism. YMMV.
Ok your question. I use a Stephenson VB shirt. The big advantage is that you can wear down while hiking. The fuzzy inside is very comfortable next to the skin. YMMV. Vapor barriers are very effective but a lot of work. Creaky gave a very good description of their use.
I have been comfortable hanging around camp down to 10 degrees in this skin-out outfit:
Stephenson VB shirt 7.8 oz.
Sportif Expedition top 10.0
MontBell down sweater 9.2
Dancing Light silnylon jacket 4.4
On an overcast, calm, minus 10 degree day while nordic skiing (working upper body) I have been comfortable in this skin-out outfit:
Stephenson VB shirt 7.8 oz.
Microfleece shirt 13.3
MontBell down sweater 9.2
Dancing Light silnylon jacket 4.4
At 10 below I was still toasty and could have gone lower. The weakness of the system is where the pack straps compress the down.
Be carful out there.
I have been comfortable hanging around camp down to 10 degrees in this skin-out outfit:
Stephenson VB shirt 7.8 oz.
Sportif Expedition top 10.0
MontBell down sweater 9.2
Dancing Light silnylon jacket 4.4
On an overcast, calm, minus 10 degree day while nordic skiing (working upper body) I have been comfortable in this skin-out outfit:
Stephenson VB shirt 7.8 oz.
Microfleece shirt 13.3
MontBell down sweater 9.2
Dancing Light silnylon jacket 4.4
At 10 below I was still toasty and could have gone lower. The weakness of the system is where the pack straps compress the down.
Thanks for the info. I can't seem to find a few items you listed.
MontBell down sweater
Sportif Expedition top (I was wondering what this is made of as well)
Microfleece shirt - I was able to locate a number of these on the web. Is this a buttom up shirt?
Thanks
Tribes and creaky gave you very good advice.
Outside of a few Patagucci products I get most of my clothes from Sierra Trading. They carry closeouts and 2nd's so what I have might not be available.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/asp/base_no.38132/dept_id./est./qx/product.htm
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/asp/base_no.14212/dept_id./est./qx/product.htm
Seems a bit lighter than the one I have but looks the same.
http://www.prolitegear.com/pl_montbell_ul_down_inner_jacket.html
The Dancing Light jacket is a bit hard to flash as Creaky described. There is probably something better to use.
I have not done long distance hiking, or eastern hiking wearing this outfit. The handwash - no dryer Stephenson shirt may make laundry days difficult.
Be careful. I do not want to discover that I have participated in a Darwin Award entry.