View Full Version : cold weather sleepin
Saffirre8
10-04-2010, 15:38
OK, so i dont think this really matters as long as you have a warm sleeping bag, but i figured i would ask anyway.
If you sleep in your tent would it be warmer then just sleeping in a shelter with just you sleeping bag?? and why??
i plan on doing alot of winter backpacking and would like to know if it is worth the extra weight of my tent because i carry more warm cloths for winter hiking. any thoughts?
A smaller enclosed area is typically warmer, thus the potential problem of condensation in a tent. So, an empty shelter is likely to be colder. There are other factors, most of which would normally make a shelter even colder, like space for cold air to come up from below, does it get a lot of wind, etc. Of course, you could have a dozen folks in one with you on the top "floor", so it can be warmer at times.
Besides, you can't count on being able to get into the shelter. You always have to carry one.
Saffirre8
10-04-2010, 16:19
i always carry a tent but sometimes am lazy at the end of the day and it is less i have to pack in the morning, so i can get a early start on the trail. I only stay in shelters if NOONE is in there with me. I dont wanta smell other people its bad enough i have to smell my stinky self.
just wondering if sleeping on the cold ground is the same as a shelter...lol
agreed wind and ect does play apart in the factors of comfortability.
garlic08
10-04-2010, 16:22
A plank floor is, in my brief experience with plank floors, much colder than snow-free ground. Generally the earth retains more heat from the day than a thin plank. In snow, things may be different.
In any case, the sleeping pad matters much more than the bag for insulation below you. In winter, I carry two foam pads.
Majortrauma
10-04-2010, 16:49
The extra weighty of the tent is WELL worth it.
I've slept in lots of snow to include USMC Mountain Warfare training at Bridgeport and no doubt about it, a tent will make or break your hiking.
Make sure you insulate underneath you as well as per garlic08 and eat like there is no tomorrow before you hit the rack. Feed the fire and you'll stay warm.
canoehead
10-04-2010, 17:12
I have an older TNF Lenticular tent it's a 4 season, made for below tree line and it is much warmer in that than a shelter. Bring a friend and share the weight and experience
Hikes in Rain
10-04-2010, 19:41
In my never to be humble opinion, based on a Scientific Wild Ass Guess (SWAG), a tent should give you around ten degrees of warmth, because the tent cuts out air movement, and gives you a smaller area to heat. And yes, I'm painfully aware of the danger of a SWAG.
I did read this somewhere in one or more of my many references. It's probably pretty close.
kayak karl
10-04-2010, 19:59
in the winter i saw many leave the trail. all from the cold down under. shelters can be drafty under neath. depends on build. im a hammocker so i didnt feel what they felt in the morn. a pad must make the difference, but what do i know.
Toolshed
10-04-2010, 20:02
Saffire,
I used to do a lot of winter camping in cold to bitterly cold conditions with deep snowpack in the Northeast. I've slept in lean-to's, snowcaves, bivy sacks, tarps, tents, Ranger station porches and firetowers. Nothing will keep you warmer and allow for a bit of comfort more than a tent. A Bivy sack might do a good job with warmth, but with shorter days and longer nights, it can become very uncomfortable to spend 10-12 (or more) hours in it.
Considering most bed down not too long after the sun goes down and the fingers of bitter cold starts curling around you, you definitely want a tent that will trap the air around you or slow the rate of air movement.
As others have said, shelters that are not earthen floors will never warm up as cold air will constantly move beneath you. You will constantly feel cold at some level.
I do like lean-tos sometimes in the winter if I am doing a big climb and don't want the hassle of a tent, but then I always bring a bivy sack to use in the shelter. We also always get a roaring fire going in front of the Lean-to.
One thing to note is that you should always carry some sort of tent or trap and not rely solely on a lean-to or shelter to be there and unoccupied.
Pedaling Fool
10-04-2010, 20:24
Reading this thread reminds me of a warning I read some time ago about the danger of allowing snow drifts to build up over the bottom edge of the fly, cutting off fresh air and allowing CO2 to build up to dangerous levels. It may have been for my tent (which is a Kelty Teton-2). I remeber thinking -- "What about single-wall tents...:confused:"
At any rate I always sleep in my tent in the cold, simply to trap in heat and shelter me from the wind. In a shelter, you could bury yourself in your bag, but it's nice to move around a little.
I never feel warmer in a tent in winter. I really can't feel a difference in temperature.
Tent, yes, it is the ground at about 4am that gets to me! If available a nice layer of leaves or pine needles (the Four Season's Hotel of camping) 6" thick helps. Cold is cold, easier to stay warm than get warm.
I started hiking in the Northern Rockies where shelters don't exist. I had a heavy duty tent, a 3lb down bag, and a 4 season thermarest and always managed alright. Played with a termometer once when I was bored. Outside was -8, inside the tent (after a very long day) was about 11, and inside my sleeping bag was around 60. I'm sure the insultation of the tent helped. If it weren't for the temp difference from the tent, it might have been a bit more exciting than just a dull day waiting out the weather. And if my tent leaked or failed to keep out the blowing snow, I'm sure it would have been a very nteresting day. One of those days where you get to fondly recall the color of your extremeties every time you tell the story to someone new...
I might just be biased because I like my tent, but I think KNOWING I can be dry and warm when I stop is worth the extra weight.
That said, beefing up your sleeping pad would probably make your night in a shelter comfy, too. An inflatable pad an a foam core, maybe?
4eyedbuzzard
10-04-2010, 22:08
A tent definitely keeps you warmer as (when closed up) it cuts down both convective losses and trap some radiation losses. Also, it's warmer to camp on the south side of hills as they get warmed more by the sun during the day, and never right in a valley floor as cold air sinks off the hills at night and fills the valleys. Best to camp a little bit elevation wise above the valley floor - even 20 to 30 feet can make a difference.
Forever North
10-04-2010, 23:12
I think people are nuts not to bring a tent. I've seen a hiker show up at a shelter and not get a spot for the night and they didn't have a tent with them. I myself never ran into that proublm because 95% of the time I sleep in a tent or I just laid out in the open on a good night. Tents are a warmer way to go. Even my three season LL Bean tent with netting for a roof is warmer then a shelter. For added warmth I've covered the roof with plastic or clothes to keep in more heat and to keep out the wind blowing under the rain cover. My little four footed heater sleeps with me which adds to keeping us warm. I will add I have never really had a big proublm with condensation. Most of it stays on the inside of the rain cover and drips down the side of the cover. When ever I leave home; I bring my home with me.
IronGutsTommy
10-04-2010, 23:57
yeah cant see not bringing a tent. sometimes the shelters full of people that do have tents, but hey if they arrived their before you its their right to use the shelter.. plus good luck showing up after dark and asking someone in the shelter to move and set up their tent. i dont see that happening. plus sometimes theres only one or two people in a shelter but they either give you the willies or are annoying. all the more reason to pack a tent. i prefer the best of both worlds, setting my tent a couple hundred yards from the shelter, getting to know people there during dinner or campfire, then removing to the silence of my tent as they proceed to cough, sneeze, and share various other ailments such as impitigo, ringworm, athletes foot, etc.
fredmugs
10-05-2010, 06:51
I'm getting ready to do a hike thru the Whites starting this weekend. I'm guessing the lows will get to freezing or a little below that. Assuming the shelter is empty is everyone saying it is warmer to setup the tent on the ground outside of the shelter than inside of it?
To add to the oringinal question, do you think it would be warmer to bring a 3 lb tent or an additional 3 lb (let's say 20 degree) sleeping bag?
sixhusbands
10-05-2010, 08:05
This weekend in the Whites will be very crowded everywhere you go. The leaves are changing and the forecast is for good weather. Take your tent and forget about the shelters , they will be packed!
Toolshed
10-05-2010, 08:45
This weekend in the Whites will be very crowded everywhere you go. The leaves are changing and the forecast is for good weather. Take your tent and forget about the shelters , they will be packed!
And plan on temps in the 30's and snow at elevation. I've been in more than a few October snowstorms up there, with accumulations.
garlic08
10-05-2010, 09:30
To add to the oringinal question, do you think it would be warmer to bring a 3 lb tent or an additional 3 lb (let's say 20 degree) sleeping bag?
The consensus seems to be that a tent adds about 10 degrees F to your warmth. That doesn't need to be three extra pounds of sleeping bag, just a few ounces. And there's no need to carry a three pound tent on the AT for that matter. My 24 ounce Tarptent did just fine on my thru hike, including two blizzards in April in the South. Again, on a cold surface, the pad is very important, too.
Aside from what others have said about the tent being warmer (they are correct, by the way), there is one more advantage to a tent in really cold conditions. In the morning, when it's time to get up, I fire up my stove (SVEA) outside, in the vestibule, and let it settle down past the flaring stage. Then with 100% of my attention being paid to the stove, I bring it inside the tent for about one minute. Wha-la, 75* inside temperature to get out of my bag and into my daytime clothes. Can't do that in no friggin' shelter!
Disclaimer: I am not suggesting this technique for others. Everyone knows it's incredibly STUPID to bring a lit stove inside a tent. Works like a charm though :-)
4eyedbuzzard
10-05-2010, 09:51
Everyone knows it's incredibly STUPID to bring a lit stove inside a tent. Works like a charm though :-)
Mountaineers do it all the time. You just have to know what you're doing. Not a good practice for novices though.
theinfamousj
10-05-2010, 12:30
I'm getting ready to do a hike thru the Whites starting this weekend. I'm guessing the lows will get to freezing or a little below that. Assuming the shelter is empty is everyone saying it is warmer to setup the tent on the ground outside of the shelter than inside of it?
Yes. We are.
And I am going to chime in on the tent vs shelter thing. I did a quick AT piece a few years ago when we got hit with a surprise blizzard. First night I dogpiled with 7 others in the shelter and was cold all night. Second night I slept in my one person tent and was toasty. Air temp at night didn't change. Sleeping pad didn't change. Sleeping pad didn't change.
But boy howdy, that tent blocked the wind which more than made up for the body heat that I had stolen off of others the night before.
Mountaineers do it all the time. You just have to know what you're doing. Not a good practice for novices though.
Mountaineers are always dying from it too.
I will add this to my post above. If you use a silnylon tent or tarp, it is probably even more stupid. The older coated nylon tents were flame retardant at least, silnylon is not.
Thought I better add this in this day with the current tent products out there. Silnylon goes up in flame very easily if I understand correctly.
I'm getting ready to do a hike thru the Whites starting this weekend. I'm guessing the lows will get to freezing or a little below that. Assuming the shelter is empty is everyone saying it is warmer to setup the tent on the ground outside of the shelter than inside of it?
Well at freezing or a little below that, I wouldn't really worry about it unless the wind is blowing right into the shelter. Probably won't notice THAT much of a difference.
It is real noticeable when the temps get into the low teens, single digits and below. Then a tent makes a bigger difference. At least it makes a more noticeable difference.