View Full Version : Paying too many fees!
Different Socks
10-20-2010, 12:57
I was just reading a BPer issue from last year(I'm way behind in my reading), and I couldn't help but notice that in many NP's, wilderness areas, and other places you have to pay a fee for the permit, then pay an additional fee to use it per person per day!!
I'm sorry, but that is crazy!! If it was a one time fee for the permit, I'd be ok with it. But if I visit a place more than once a year(as I plan to), why should I have to pay for the permit every time?!!
And don't get me started on the reservation system!! Paying for the cost of a campsite(s) for a weekend/week, then paying a reservation fee is one thing. But if I want to set up a reservation for any additional nights in the future beyond the initial reservation I have to pay a fee for every reservation after that. Ridiculous!!!!!
What's even worse is when the cost of the reservation is more than the cost of the site fee!
Is anyone else not ok with this?
If you don't want to pay all these fees, go someplace less popular. The fees help keep popular places from being overrun with human feces.
Do you mean backcountry permits? I thought they're usually free. The grand canyon was pretty cheap when I was there. I don't care about the price. What I'm sick of is rangers thinking I'm incompetent. I couldn't get a permit to hike along the Escalante river in winter because it was "too dangerous".
The ones that get me are the parks that charge a vehicle entrance fee when no vehicle enters the park. Then they charge a "per night" user fee as well.
Example:
Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore in Michigan. When backpacking on North Manitou Island, you park your vehicle in a private lot at the Ferry services facility, not within the bounds of the Lakeshore. Once you arrive at the dock on the island, you have to pay the vehicle entrance fee along with your per night user fee.
Makes no sense.
What I'm sick of is rangers thinking I'm incompetent. I couldn't get a permit to hike along the Escalante river in winter because it was "too dangerous".
Just government protecting you from yourself. You youngsters are like lemmings you know.
skinewmexico
10-20-2010, 14:04
There's your problem, reading Backpacker.
Old Hiker
10-20-2010, 14:09
Why two different threads on the same gripe?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66084
Be thankful you don't have to pay your share of the entire bill. Divide the total budget by the number of people using the park and that should be your entry fee.
Old Hiker
10-20-2010, 14:11
Why two different threads for the same gripe?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66083
Divide the total budget by the number of people using the park and that should be your entry fee.
johnnybgood
10-20-2010, 15:51
I can only speak to paying " user fees " which I have no problem with . I have never paid a dime more for on-line reservations or parking.
restless
10-20-2010, 16:09
How many people on this thread, who feel that fees are not Ok, have put some sweat equity into trails? Most hikers that I know enjoy the amazing opportunities available for hiking throughout the US. Not every trail has a fee connected with it. There are many more free areas than there are fee areas. I think most people will find that fees are typically charged in high use areas, or in areas where the managing agency is underfunded. Places like campgrounds and day use areas recieve a high volume of use and therefore need more costly services to keep them up. In some places fees go towards trail system maintenance, due to the high use. The trails have to be maintained one way or another and with the pool of volunteers continues to dwindle, usage of trails continues to increase.
My challenges to anyone who posts on this thread and is against user fees, is to get out and volunteer to help maintain trails. Once people start taking a personal ownership in the trails they use and invest some of their time, then perhaps fees will start to decrease. Right now, though, because of a failure on the part of hikers to help maintain the trails, land managers have to rely on well paid trail professionals to do that work. If the fees weren't there, some of our trails would start to disappear. That is a reaality I don't think any of us want to consider.:-?
garlic08
10-20-2010, 16:14
My last several trips to Grand Canyon NP I got there before the rangers and entrance was free. My last trip to Mount Rainier NP I got a free backcountry permit and free camping. In the North Cascades NP last summer, a ranger field-issued me a free permit via radio, way beyond the call of duty. I don't recall paying anything for my Yellowstone permit a couple of years ago, hiking through on the CDT. Maybe reading BP mag gets the BP up, but on the ground, when you're out hiking, it doesn't seem so bad, at least to me. I've gotten great service and hiked some fantastic trails, often for no cost at all.
Pedaling Fool
10-20-2010, 16:22
Just be a thru-hiker/long-distance hiker passin' thru and there are no fees. A good example of this is SNP. However you will get nabbed in AMC country .
Even cycling thru SNP costs $8, but the blueridge parkway is free -- same type ride, but SNP does see much more traffic, so I guess that's it...all-in-all I can't complain.
Bags4266
10-20-2010, 16:37
I agree w/ Restless. I have no problem paying fee's. To me its all for the good of the trail which I use. And the fee's are minimal. I don't have the opportunity unfortunately to help out on the trail. In away I feel guilty.
What gets me is all the people I see on the trail trying as hard as possible not donating, a few bucks is a small price to pay to upkeep the trail and shelters.
"How many people on this thread, who feel that fees are not Ok, have put some sweat equity into trails?"
Been volunteering hundreds of hours per year for many years now.
"I agree w/ Restless. I have no problem paying fee's. To me its all for the good of the trail which I use. And the fee's are minimal. I don't have the opportunity unfortunately to help out on the trail. In away I feel guilty."
Unfortunately, most user fees and entrance fees go to pay for front country campgrounds, roads, picnic areas, visitor centers, fee collection booths/personnel, etc. Plus a portion goes to other parks and administration.
double d
10-20-2010, 17:14
NP fees do not go back directly to the NP, they go to the Federal government, which then indirectly under funds NP's.
restless
10-20-2010, 17:50
"How many people on this thread, who feel that fees are not Ok, have put some sweat equity into trails?"
Been volunteering hundreds of hours per year for many years now.
"I agree w/ Restless. I have no problem paying fee's. To me its all for the good of the trail which I use. And the fee's are minimal. I don't have the opportunity unfortunately to help out on the trail. In away I feel guilty."
Unfortunately, most user fees and entrance fees go to pay for front country campgrounds, roads, picnic areas, visitor centers, fee collection booths/personnel, etc. Plus a portion goes to other parks and administration.
First off, thank you Lyle for the many hours of volunteer work. If more hikers would do this, I'm sure our trails nationwide would be in much better shape.
While it is true that most fees collected go towards improving front country facilities, all fees collected are required to stay where they are collected. In other words, fees collected,say in Shenandoah NP, would not be sent to Mt. Rogers NRA. They also cannot be used for biological monitoring or employee bonuses.
The current fee structure was authorized under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act. In a FAQ document I found concerning the FLREA I found the following info:
"The rationale behind recreation fees and other types of user fees is that those who use particular
services and facilities should pay for a larger portion of the costs, rather than require other
taxpayers who never use the amenities to pay the entire bill. Congress recognized the
responsibility of visitors to bear a greater portion of the cost when it established broad recreation
fee authority in 1965 under the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act and in 1996 under the
Fee Demo program."
While we as backpackers may not use some of the frontcountry facilities that fees typically support, we do enjoy the larger areas that those sites are in. As a result, we, as outdoor enthusiasts, are asked to bear more of the burden of upkeep in these places than those who never see them.
Many Walks
10-20-2010, 18:19
We have built and maintained trails and have no problem paying fees for access to the more popular areas where higher visitor counts and maintenance is required. However, if fees are an issue for someone there are thousands of trails and parking in National Forests that are free. Generally, only a campfire permit is required, which is free and good for a year. No reason to complain, just hike in another place.
rusty075
10-20-2010, 18:27
I'm sorry, but that is crazy!! If it was a one time fee for the permit, I'd be ok with it. But if I visit a place more than once a year(as I plan to), why should I have to pay for the permit every time?!!
And don't get me started on the reservation system!! Paying for the cost of a campsite(s) for a weekend/week, then paying a reservation fee is one thing. But if I want to set up a reservation for any additional nights in the future beyond the initial reservation I have to pay a fee for every reservation after that. Ridiculous!!!!!
What's even worse is when the cost of the reservation is more than the cost of the site fee!
I had the exact same problem with a hotel recently. I mean, I stayed there once, and paid the fee, which I'm totally ok with. But then I went back later in the year and they had to nerve to try to make me pay the fee to stay there again! Ridiculous!!!!! :rolleyes:
Parks cost money to maintain. The people who use the park should pay a greater share of that than the people who don't. People who use the park more often should pay more than people who use it less often. I don't see the problem with that logic.
The proposal, when the user fees were started, was that they would stay local and be applied to the millions of dollars of back-logged maintenance that the parks needed. They were supposed to be temporary (hense the "Demo" in the title) and help the Park Service catch up with needed repairs and re-building.
In stead, the Legislature either proportionately cut the funding that they provided from the General Fund, or they stopped increasing the levels of funding growth necessary to keep up with increased usage and costs. In effect, they reduced the other sources of funding, so the Parks are in no better shape than they were when this fee program was foisted upon the public. It was smoke and mirrors so that they could divert more money to other projects.
But they sure do have shiny new vehicles. Plenty of them, too.
At least around here.
Just government protecting you from yourself. You youngsters are like lemmings you know.
Actually, it was around the fourth of July and I think they had four days off. they were just being lazy and din't want to have to come check on me. It took me four days to hitchhike out there and I was turned around.
The ones that get me are the parks that charge a vehicle entrance fee when no vehicle enters the park. Then they charge a "per night" user fee as well.
I usually hitch thru National parks. When I walk in I only have to pay the pedestrian fee.
Different Socks
10-20-2010, 19:33
Do you mean backcountry permits? I thought they're usually free. The grand canyon was pretty cheap when I was there. I don't care about the price. What I'm sick of is rangers thinking I'm incompetent. I couldn't get a permit to hike along the Escalante river in winter because it was "too dangerous".
BPer Aug 2009 issue: Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness--$16/person, $12 to reserve
Olympic NP--$5/group, $2/person/night--ok, so that one is cheap.
GCNP--overnight permits, $10, plus $5/person/night
That's just 3 of them. But if i want to go overnight more than once in GCNP I have to pay the $10 for the permit each time, plus the $5 for each night!!
Different Socks
10-20-2010, 19:35
Why two different threads for the same gripe?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66083
Divide the total budget by the number of people using the park and that should be your entry fee.
Wasn't sure where to post it. Have trouble locating a post once it's moved.
Different Socks
10-20-2010, 19:39
How many people on this thread, who feel that fees are not Ok, have put some sweat equity into trails? Most hikers that I know enjoy the amazing opportunities available for hiking throughout the US. Not every trail has a fee connected with it. There are many more free areas than there are fee areas. I think most people will find that fees are typically charged in high use areas, or in areas where the managing agency is underfunded. Places like campgrounds and day use areas recieve a high volume of use and therefore need more costly services to keep them up. In some places fees go towards trail system maintenance, due to the high use. The trails have to be maintained one way or another and with the pool of volunteers continues to dwindle, usage of trails continues to increase.
My challenges to anyone who posts on this thread and is against user fees, is to get out and volunteer to help maintain trails. Once people start taking a personal ownership in the trails they use and invest some of their time, then perhaps fees will start to decrease. Right now, though, because of a failure on the part of hikers to help maintain the trails, land managers have to rely on well paid trail professionals to do that work. If the fees weren't there, some of our trails would start to disappear. That is a reaality I don't think any of us want to consider.:-?
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any fees, I'm just questioning why you have to pay for the permit every time you go over night in the same year. Why not an annual overnight permit be offered, then pay for each night when you actually use it?
BTW, I have helped build trails in NH, CA, WI, CO and AZ.
Why not an annual overnight permit be offered, then pay for each night when you actually use it?
Our neighbors to the north have a wonderful backcountry permit system. Pay a one time fee for the year, and you have backcountry camping covered for all the national parks. Pretty cool. You still have to make reservations in many cases, but at least you are not paying for it multiple times. :) About $70 CDN IIRC.
They have a similar one time fee for an entrance pass to the national parks too, but we have that in the US as well. (Alas, but not the one fee for backcountry camping)
restless
10-20-2010, 20:08
BWCAW does offer a seasonal pass:
http://www.bwca.cc/tripplanning/reservations.htm
I agree that it does seem a little steep. Looking over the FS website, it does appear that this area gets quite a bit of use, and it seems that some of the fees go towards fixing the damage done by others. It isn't cheap to manage an area this large and it sounds as if accessability creates other problems. However, the FS website did mention that there are other places, outside the BWCAW that are permit free.
johnnybgood
10-20-2010, 20:27
For me the cost of an annual $30 fee at SNP is worth it's money in gold . As many times as I go there , 10 x a year or more , it pays me to purchase one. Yeah maybe the $15 single entry (good 7 days upon receipt) is alot in todays tough economy , but measured up against a night at the movies for 2... it's a bargain.
I have seen taxpayers money at work this year at Shenandoah Nat'l Park with restoration of overlooks ,road paving and construction of new log guard rails along the Drive.
With the 75th year celebration next year the Park is looking to capitalize on making a good life long impression on it's visitors.
I applaud everyone that volunteers time and talent to maintain the NPS in their neck of the woods. Your dedication and service in our National Parks does not go unrewarded as you can take pride in a job well done.
restless
10-20-2010, 20:41
For me the cost of an annual $30 fee at SNP is worth it's money in gold . As many times as I go there , 10 x a year or more , it pays me to purchase one. Yeah maybe the $15 single entry (good 7 days upon receipt) is alot in todays tough economy , but measured up against a night at the movies for 2... it's a bargain.
I have seen taxpayers money at work this year at Shenandoah Nat'l Park with restoration of overlooks ,road paving and construction of new log guard rails along the Drive.
With the 75th year celebration next year the Park is looking to capitalize on making a good life long impression on it's visitors.
I applaud everyone that volunteers time and talent to maintain the NPS in their neck of the woods. Your dedication and service in our National Parks does not go unrewarded as you can take pride in a job well done.
Looking forward to getting up there and starting work in a couple of weeks:banana:banana:banana
I don't see many broke folks out on the trail. Almost everyone I've run across I would classify as being from a higher socioeconomic background. I don't mind paying $$ to help support a park. I bought a $50 year parking pass to Georgia state parks which I doubt I'll even come close to breaking even on but money talks when it comes time for legislators to figure out what stays and what goes.
Regarding the poster above commenting on Rangers treating people like babies. You know what the hiker who is well prepared and has the knowledge to hike the trail says? The same thing that the idiot who is going to go out, run out of food, get hypothermia and have to be rescued says. "I'm prepared and know what I'm doing!"
Once a Ranger is around you for more than a day and realizes that you actually do know what you're doing they'll treat you differently in my experience. Took a zero day in Cades Cove and the Rangers went from that slightly hostile/overworked/just trying to keep things under control attitude to being very pleasant once they saw me and my buddy were keeping food stored safely and weren't being pests.
NP fees do not go back directly to the NP, they go to the Federal government, which then indirectly under funds NP's.
Wrong! For FY2009 Congress gave the NPS taxpayer funding of $2.2 Billion for Operations, $240 Million for Construction, and $684 Million for Recreation and Preservation. In addition the NPS collects about $172 million in entrance and other recreation fees every year, and is allowed to retain those mostly at the Park or other unit where they were collected.
After 30 second of investigation that is what I learned. I'm sick of phony comments about important public issues.
Weary
I paid $10 for a 7 day pass (it's only $20 for a yearly) at Sleeping Bear Dunes NL. I found it very worth it. Excellent trail conditions, maps at every trailhead, maintained facilities & preserved historic areas. $10 isn't too much to ask really.
Old Hiker
10-21-2010, 13:03
I had the exact same problem with a hotel recently. I mean, I stayed there once, and paid the fee, which I'm totally ok with. But then I went back later in the year and they had to nerve to try to make me pay the fee to stay there again! Ridiculous!!!!! :rolleyes:
Parks cost money to maintain. The people who use the park should pay a greater share of that than the people who don't. People who use the park more often should pay more than people who use it less often. I don't see the problem with that logic.
What a way to make it clear, Rusty! Never thought of it that way.
Don't a lot of parks have an annual pass? I'd have to look at how many times I go to that particular park and see if it was cheaper in the long run to get a pass.
restless
10-21-2010, 13:59
What a way to make it clear, Rusty! Never thought of it that way.
Don't a lot of parks have an annual pass? I'd have to look at how many times I go to that particular park and see if it was cheaper in the long run to get a pass.
If I am reading this thread correctly, it seems that the OP is referring to backcountry passes/permit fees. I don't believe many parks offer an annual backcountry pass that would be the equivalent of the National Parks and Federal Recreation Lands Pass. While an annual BC permit does sound reasonable, under the current structure of the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act I doubt we will see anything of this sort. The cost to implement a program of that nature would create higher fees all around. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you don't want to pay the fee, find a place that is free (the free places tend to be lass crowded as well).
Danielsen
10-21-2010, 23:07
After trekking in Peru and being stymied by the government-mandated requirement that you pay $400 or more to go with an official trekking outfit to hike the inca trail, I'm not too inclined to complain about american permit fees. We couldn't afford to hike the official inca trail. We did some other treks instead, on trails that were freely accessible, and had a great experience. You do have the same option here.